1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,520 Vox: You nervous? level , a week, two weeks before you're getting really nervous. 2 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:13,710 Vox: You're like, oh my God, am I going to fail again? The mindset, I was doubting myself and I got really anxious. 3 00:00:13,980 --> 00:00:16,739 Vox: I have emergency cigarettes package in my drawer and I 4 00:00:16,739 --> 00:00:18,960 Vox: was like, this is the only one I'm smoking. That's it. 5 00:00:19,020 --> 00:00:20,639 Vox: Of course, there's always things you're going to worry about. 6 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:26,250 Krutika Adatia : Any of that resonate? Hello, and welcome back to On 7 00:00:26,250 --> 00:00:30,030 Krutika Adatia : Your Marks from the ACCA. I'm Krutika Adatia and I'm a 8 00:00:30,030 --> 00:00:34,380 Krutika Adatia : chartered accountant. I now support accountancy students through their training. 9 00:00:34,860 --> 00:00:37,229 Krutika Adatia : And in this series I sit down with experts to 10 00:00:37,229 --> 00:00:40,530 Krutika Adatia : look at how we can all better handle whatever life 11 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:43,860 Krutika Adatia : throws at us, whether we're preparing for our next accountancy 12 00:00:43,860 --> 00:00:46,470 Krutika Adatia : exam or trying to get a good night's sleep while 13 00:00:46,470 --> 00:00:49,470 Krutika Adatia : balancing a tricky workload. Wherever you are at in your 14 00:00:49,470 --> 00:00:52,890 Krutika Adatia : journey towards qualification, On Your Marks is here to help 15 00:00:52,890 --> 00:00:56,520 Krutika Adatia : you tackle the process head on. And we're so delighted 16 00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:59,610 Krutika Adatia : to be back for season two. This week, we're looking 17 00:00:59,610 --> 00:01:03,420 Krutika Adatia : at anxiety. We all get anxious sometimes, but how do 18 00:01:03,420 --> 00:01:06,360 Krutika Adatia : we know when it's time to seek help? Why do 19 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:08,730 Krutika Adatia : we evolve to have anxiety in the first place, and 20 00:01:08,970 --> 00:01:12,000 Krutika Adatia : what techniques can help us or manage anxiety a little 21 00:01:12,030 --> 00:01:16,230 Krutika Adatia : better? This is On Your Marks, because you'll never know until 22 00:01:16,230 --> 00:01:22,319 Krutika Adatia : you try. As an educator, I hear it all the time. Accountancy 23 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:25,140 Krutika Adatia : students are often dealing with a lot of anxiety whilst 24 00:01:25,140 --> 00:01:29,280 Krutika Adatia : preparing for and sitting their exams. For me, anxiety is 25 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:31,590 Krutika Adatia : like this persistent little voice in the back of my 26 00:01:31,590 --> 00:01:35,009 Krutika Adatia : mind and it tends to get louder in certain situations. 27 00:01:35,370 --> 00:01:38,670 Krutika Adatia : I really notice it before important work meetings, when I'm 28 00:01:38,670 --> 00:01:41,790 Krutika Adatia : in new environments, and especially the first time I recorded 29 00:01:41,790 --> 00:01:46,380 Krutika Adatia : this podcast. I remember it being particularly overwhelming during exam 30 00:01:46,380 --> 00:01:51,450 Krutika Adatia : periods, especially during the equivalent strategic professional stage. Balancing a 31 00:01:51,450 --> 00:01:54,960 Krutika Adatia : busy workload with studying felt like too much at times. 32 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:58,230 Krutika Adatia : I was constantly worried I wasn't studying enough and terrified 33 00:01:58,230 --> 00:02:00,630 Krutika Adatia : that I'd blank out in the exam hall. I think 34 00:02:00,630 --> 00:02:02,610 Krutika Adatia : many of you might be able to relate to that 35 00:02:02,610 --> 00:02:06,630 Krutika Adatia : feeling. To chat it all through, I've got Joshua Fletcher 36 00:02:06,630 --> 00:02:09,750 Krutika Adatia : here. He's a therapist and author and an expert on 37 00:02:09,750 --> 00:02:14,910 Krutika Adatia : anxiety. In fact, online he's known as Anxiety Josh. Josh, 38 00:02:15,030 --> 00:02:16,860 Krutika Adatia : what actually is anxiety? 39 00:02:17,250 --> 00:02:20,010 Joshua Fletcher: Thanks for having me on. Anxiety, yeah, it's a broad 40 00:02:20,220 --> 00:02:23,760 Joshua Fletcher: subject. To understand it, it's the mind and body's threat 41 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:27,630 Joshua Fletcher: response. There's a part of our brain called the amygdala, 42 00:02:28,020 --> 00:02:31,230 Joshua Fletcher: which is shaped like an almond. And the amygdala is 43 00:02:31,230 --> 00:02:35,519 Joshua Fletcher: the oldest, fastest, and dumbest parts of our brain. When 44 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:38,429 Joshua Fletcher: it senses threat, whether a real threat or a perceived 45 00:02:38,430 --> 00:02:42,389 Joshua Fletcher: threat or maybe an imaginary threat, it releases adrenaline and 46 00:02:42,389 --> 00:02:47,669 Joshua Fletcher: cortisol and we feel anxiety. When we feel nervous, on 47 00:02:47,669 --> 00:02:51,510 Joshua Fletcher: edge, maybe we've got racing thoughts, intrusive thoughts, when we're 48 00:02:51,510 --> 00:02:56,669 Joshua Fletcher: ruminating, catastrophizing, when we're worried about something, maybe we're even 49 00:02:57,150 --> 00:03:01,620 Joshua Fletcher: having something as severe a panic attack, that is anxiety. 50 00:03:01,620 --> 00:03:05,550 Joshua Fletcher: It's the threat response. The level of anxiety is dependent 51 00:03:05,550 --> 00:03:09,750 Joshua Fletcher: on the mind and body's decision to gauge the threat. 52 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:14,790 Joshua Fletcher: You've got conventional anxiety, so if you're worried about exams, 53 00:03:15,180 --> 00:03:17,669 Joshua Fletcher: that would be classed as conventional anxiety, because people can 54 00:03:17,669 --> 00:03:21,960 Joshua Fletcher: relate to exam stress. Whether you're worried about driving test, 55 00:03:22,110 --> 00:03:25,739 Joshua Fletcher: maybe the dentist wants to rip your molars out, maybe 56 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:28,889 Joshua Fletcher: you've got issues going on in your life, that kind 57 00:03:28,889 --> 00:03:33,299 Joshua Fletcher: of conventional anxiety is the mind and body's threat response. 58 00:03:33,870 --> 00:03:38,040 Joshua Fletcher: I'm a psychotherapist who specializes in working with anxiety and 59 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:43,170 Joshua Fletcher: anxiety disorders. When you look at anxiety from a disorder 60 00:03:43,170 --> 00:03:46,800 Joshua Fletcher: point of view, which basically means inwards, things aren't in 61 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:49,740 Joshua Fletcher: the right place, I look at the kind of anxiety 62 00:03:49,740 --> 00:03:53,820 Joshua Fletcher: that we also don't really speak about, so people who 63 00:03:53,820 --> 00:04:00,630 Joshua Fletcher: struggle with panic attacks, agoraphobia, intrusive thoughts, health anxiety, monophobia, 64 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:05,910 Joshua Fletcher: social anxiety, these different types of anxiety. To answer the question, " 65 00:04:06,090 --> 00:04:09,150 Joshua Fletcher: What is anxiety?", I usually split it into two. It's 66 00:04:09,150 --> 00:04:13,140 Joshua Fletcher: your mind's threat response, is it focusing on conventional threat 67 00:04:13,710 --> 00:04:17,880 Joshua Fletcher: or has it gone inwards and we're struggling with chronic anxiety? 68 00:04:18,150 --> 00:04:20,969 Krutika Adatia : Thank you for that explanation, Josh. I just want to 69 00:04:20,970 --> 00:04:23,520 Krutika Adatia : touch on a couple of things that you've mentioned. You 70 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:26,880 Krutika Adatia : touched on words like nerves and worry. You also mentioned 71 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:30,779 Krutika Adatia : cortisol release which, I mean, certainly I associate with stress. 72 00:04:31,290 --> 00:04:35,880 Krutika Adatia : There's sometimes tendencies to maybe use interchangeable terminology as well. 73 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:40,560 Krutika Adatia : Is there a distinction between anxiety and stress and nerves 74 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:43,770 Krutika Adatia : and worry, or are they all under the same umbrella? 75 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:50,430 Joshua Fletcher: I think stress and anxiety are different. I think anxiety is exacerbated by stress, 76 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:54,299 Joshua Fletcher: particularly accumulated stress. If you're someone who's got a lot 77 00:04:54,300 --> 00:04:58,469 Joshua Fletcher: on, maybe you're studying for exams, maybe you got lots going 78 00:04:58,470 --> 00:05:01,950 Joshua Fletcher: on in your personal life, maybe you're processing things that 79 00:05:01,950 --> 00:05:04,739 Joshua Fletcher: have happened in the past, maybe you're grieving, maybe you're 80 00:05:04,740 --> 00:05:07,800 Joshua Fletcher: struggling to pay the rent or the mortgage, these stressful 81 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:11,190 Joshua Fletcher: things can build up. And when they accumulate, can make 82 00:05:11,190 --> 00:05:15,029 Joshua Fletcher: us feel anxious because the brain's threat response tries to 83 00:05:15,029 --> 00:05:19,289 Joshua Fletcher: kick in. It doesn't understand subjective stress, because again, it's 84 00:05:19,290 --> 00:05:23,640 Joshua Fletcher: the oldest part of our brain. Our ancestors used it 85 00:05:23,700 --> 00:05:28,050 Joshua Fletcher: to full effect. But in the modern day, when we're 86 00:05:28,050 --> 00:05:32,670 Joshua Fletcher: really stressed with all these things, sometimes anxiety can make 87 00:05:32,670 --> 00:05:35,609 Joshua Fletcher: things even worse. Also, you can reframe that though, but 88 00:05:35,610 --> 00:05:39,630 Joshua Fletcher: anxiety sometimes is a message to you to say, maybe 89 00:05:41,070 --> 00:05:43,230 Joshua Fletcher: the way I'm living at the moment isn't currently sustainable, 90 00:05:43,650 --> 00:05:46,380 Joshua Fletcher: maybe I can't keep living with this level of stress, 91 00:05:46,380 --> 00:05:49,170 Joshua Fletcher: maybe this is a warning sign, a helpful warning sign 92 00:05:49,170 --> 00:05:51,839 Joshua Fletcher: say, where can I put the foot on the brake 93 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:54,570 Joshua Fletcher: a bit and take a look at my life and 94 00:05:55,140 --> 00:05:57,900 Joshua Fletcher: address the stress that's currently in it? 95 00:05:58,919 --> 00:06:04,350 Krutika Adatia : You mentioned that anxiety is a threat response. How common 96 00:06:04,529 --> 00:06:09,150 Krutika Adatia : is it amongst individuals? Is it something that everyone experiences? 97 00:06:09,510 --> 00:06:14,549 Joshua Fletcher: Everyone gets anxiety. It's a very healthy, normal emotion. It's a 98 00:06:14,550 --> 00:06:17,850 Joshua Fletcher: very normal thing that the body does. When it becomes 99 00:06:17,850 --> 00:06:21,630 Joshua Fletcher: chronic and excessive, that's when you need to intervene and 100 00:06:21,630 --> 00:06:24,900 Joshua Fletcher: change things. But we all get anxiety and we all have 101 00:06:24,900 --> 00:06:28,200 Joshua Fletcher: that threat response. Some people like the threat response, so 102 00:06:28,710 --> 00:06:33,450 Joshua Fletcher: they're called... What's the term?... adrenaline junkies. People watch scary 103 00:06:33,450 --> 00:06:36,420 Joshua Fletcher: films. They go on roller coasters. They like to push 104 00:06:36,450 --> 00:06:39,510 Joshua Fletcher: themselves and put themselves in scary situations. It's the same 105 00:06:39,510 --> 00:06:42,810 Joshua Fletcher: thing, it's the threat response. But that's the very same 106 00:06:42,810 --> 00:06:46,890 Joshua Fletcher: threat response to someone who's perhaps at home worrying over 107 00:06:47,250 --> 00:06:51,150 Joshua Fletcher: catastrophic thoughts and scenarios. It just depends how it presents 108 00:06:51,150 --> 00:06:53,970 Joshua Fletcher: in our relationship with it. I'm someone who struggled really 109 00:06:53,970 --> 00:06:59,310 Joshua Fletcher: badly with anxiety years ago, couldn't leave the house, was 110 00:06:59,310 --> 00:07:03,029 Joshua Fletcher: very monophobic, had panic attacks, diagnosed with panic disorder and 111 00:07:03,029 --> 00:07:05,670 Joshua Fletcher: OCD. And a lot of that was down to my 112 00:07:05,670 --> 00:07:09,089 Joshua Fletcher: relationship with this threat response, the anxiety. I was scared 113 00:07:09,089 --> 00:07:12,180 Joshua Fletcher: of anxiety itself, this fear of fear, and didn't quite 114 00:07:12,210 --> 00:07:17,220 Joshua Fletcher: understand it. Now I'm okay. I still get anxiety. Lots 115 00:07:17,220 --> 00:07:19,050 Joshua Fletcher: of people are like, "How do you get rid of anxiety?" No, we don't get 116 00:07:19,050 --> 00:07:22,290 Joshua Fletcher: rid of it, but we calm it down so it 117 00:07:22,620 --> 00:07:23,880 Joshua Fletcher: functions like it should do. 118 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:28,440 Krutika Adatia : Thank you so much for candidly sharing your experiences with 119 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:30,600 Krutika Adatia : it. I guess we'll touch on this a bit more 120 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:33,240 Krutika Adatia : later, but seeing as you've mentioned it, how did you 121 00:07:33,630 --> 00:07:36,870 Krutika Adatia : overcome anxiety? I know you say you still deal with 122 00:07:36,870 --> 00:07:39,900 Krutika Adatia : it, but was there something that helped you in particular 123 00:07:39,900 --> 00:07:40,710 Krutika Adatia : to manage it? 124 00:07:41,070 --> 00:07:43,380 Joshua Fletcher: Yeah. One of the main things that helped me with my 125 00:07:43,380 --> 00:07:46,770 Joshua Fletcher: anxiety is understanding what was going on in my mind 126 00:07:46,770 --> 00:07:50,130 Joshua Fletcher: and body, because I thought I was going crazy. One 127 00:07:50,130 --> 00:07:54,810 Joshua Fletcher: morning, when anxiety really kicked in, I was making a 128 00:07:54,810 --> 00:07:58,830 Joshua Fletcher: cup of tea at work and suddenly everything felt strange 129 00:07:58,830 --> 00:08:02,910 Joshua Fletcher: and looked strange. I was experiencing a symptom called dissociation 130 00:08:03,330 --> 00:08:05,700 Joshua Fletcher: and it really scared me. I didn't know what was going 131 00:08:05,700 --> 00:08:11,460 Joshua Fletcher: on. And then my heart started racing, palpitating. I just 132 00:08:11,460 --> 00:08:14,130 Joshua Fletcher: felt the sudden sense that something awful was going to 133 00:08:14,130 --> 00:08:17,580 Joshua Fletcher: happen. My chest hurt, and I just felt like I 134 00:08:17,580 --> 00:08:20,850 Joshua Fletcher: needed to escape where I was. That was my first- 135 00:08:20,850 --> 00:08:23,940 Joshua Fletcher: ever panic attack. My thoughts were racing. I thought I 136 00:08:23,940 --> 00:08:27,300 Joshua Fletcher: was going crazy. I thought I was going to die, basically. 137 00:08:30,390 --> 00:08:33,870 Joshua Fletcher: I became agoraphobic, so I wouldn't leave my house because 138 00:08:33,870 --> 00:08:36,270 Joshua Fletcher: I thought that was my safe zone. Or when I 139 00:08:36,270 --> 00:08:39,240 Joshua Fletcher: did leave, I could only go to specific areas. I 140 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:43,770 Joshua Fletcher: struggled with intrusive thoughts, wrestled with them, ruminated, constantly searched 141 00:08:43,770 --> 00:08:47,189 Joshua Fletcher: for reassurance, and basically tried to work out what was 142 00:08:47,190 --> 00:08:49,710 Joshua Fletcher: wrong with me, and I didn't understand. The doctor didn't help 143 00:08:49,710 --> 00:08:53,429 Joshua Fletcher: at the time and I was in a really lonely place. I 144 00:08:53,429 --> 00:08:57,300 Joshua Fletcher: got better through psychoeducation and through the correct therapy as 145 00:08:57,300 --> 00:09:01,439 Joshua Fletcher: well, and just understanding what my brain was doing, understanding that 146 00:09:01,650 --> 00:09:03,870 Joshua Fletcher: the thoughts are there because the threat response is trying 147 00:09:03,870 --> 00:09:08,340 Joshua Fletcher: to suggest what the danger is. Learning I have agency 148 00:09:08,340 --> 00:09:12,840 Joshua Fletcher: with thoughts, you can choose to engage with what thoughts 149 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:16,170 Joshua Fletcher: are important to you or not. Realizing I wasn't made 150 00:09:16,170 --> 00:09:21,210 Joshua Fletcher: of glass. Anxious people feel very vulnerable. A lot about 151 00:09:21,660 --> 00:09:24,809 Joshua Fletcher: overcoming anxiety is realizing you can tolerate more than you 152 00:09:24,809 --> 00:09:29,880 Joshua Fletcher: think. And emptying out my stress jug. I was going 153 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:32,910 Joshua Fletcher: through a lot and talking about it, going to therapy, 154 00:09:33,030 --> 00:09:35,850 Joshua Fletcher: opening up to friends. Things like that really helped to 155 00:09:35,850 --> 00:09:37,770 Joshua Fletcher: calm the anxiety and the threat response down. 156 00:09:38,429 --> 00:09:41,250 Krutika Adatia : That's really useful to know that the education piece really 157 00:09:41,250 --> 00:09:44,580 Krutika Adatia : helped you, Would you say that for our listeners, for 158 00:09:44,580 --> 00:09:48,360 Krutika Adatia : example, who might be sitting exams and feeling anxious ahead 159 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:52,530 Krutika Adatia : of exams, that just understanding the emotion of anxiety could 160 00:09:52,530 --> 00:09:54,630 Krutika Adatia : potentially help them manage it better? 161 00:09:55,470 --> 00:09:58,800 Joshua Fletcher: Understanding what it is, yes. I mean, it's still uncomfortable, 162 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:01,920 Joshua Fletcher: but you take away the mystery of anxiety. You can 163 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:07,650 Joshua Fletcher: still function with anxiety, but use that as a signal 164 00:10:08,100 --> 00:10:11,400 Joshua Fletcher: for what you do next. If you're really stressed, particularly 165 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:14,640 Joshua Fletcher: if you're struggling with conventional anxiety and it's exam time, 166 00:10:15,300 --> 00:10:17,580 Joshua Fletcher: that's a sign to say, right, take a step back for 167 00:10:17,580 --> 00:10:24,270 Joshua Fletcher: a second. The really hardworking, perfectionist people... Perfectionism's another form 168 00:10:24,270 --> 00:10:27,449 Joshua Fletcher: of anxiety as well... they'll struggle to say no or 169 00:10:27,450 --> 00:10:31,469 Joshua Fletcher: stop. They'll keep pushing themselves and then they'll be teetering 170 00:10:31,470 --> 00:10:34,920 Joshua Fletcher: on burnout. Whereas listen to your mind and body. If 171 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:37,770 Joshua Fletcher: your heart's palpitating at three in the morning, you're tossing 172 00:10:37,770 --> 00:10:39,929 Joshua Fletcher: and turning, you can't sleep, you can't eat, your appetite's 173 00:10:39,929 --> 00:10:43,110 Joshua Fletcher: gone, you feel nauseous, maybe listen to that for a bit, 174 00:10:43,110 --> 00:10:44,850 Joshua Fletcher: to take a step back and give yourself permission to 175 00:10:44,850 --> 00:10:48,089 Joshua Fletcher: be like, okay, am I allowed some me time now? I'm allowed 176 00:10:48,090 --> 00:10:51,660 Joshua Fletcher: to put in some boundaries with my work, with my 177 00:10:51,660 --> 00:10:55,170 Joshua Fletcher: studies, to allow my body and my nervous system to 178 00:10:55,170 --> 00:10:56,670 Joshua Fletcher: come back to a stay- at- homeostasis. 179 00:10:57,690 --> 00:11:01,410 Krutika Adatia : Just thinking about our students who are probably starting off 180 00:11:01,410 --> 00:11:04,740 Krutika Adatia : and thinking, gosh, I've got 9 or 13 exams, depending 181 00:11:04,740 --> 00:11:06,870 Krutika Adatia : on where they're starting, that's a long way to go, 182 00:11:07,319 --> 00:11:09,059 Krutika Adatia : a lot of stress that they might have to take 183 00:11:09,059 --> 00:11:12,689 Krutika Adatia : on, and anxiety. What might you say to that particular listener? 184 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:18,780 Joshua Fletcher: I'd say not only are you learning the skills required for your exams and for 185 00:11:18,780 --> 00:11:22,260 Joshua Fletcher: your profession, but you're also learning skills like resilience. And 186 00:11:22,260 --> 00:11:25,860 Joshua Fletcher: if you're going to go through that many exams, you 187 00:11:25,860 --> 00:11:28,559 Joshua Fletcher: will learn bit by bit, and realizing that with each 188 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:32,130 Joshua Fletcher: one you'll become more resilient. You'll also teach the brain 189 00:11:32,130 --> 00:11:35,820 Joshua Fletcher: and the threat response, actually, this situation is safe. Yes, 190 00:11:35,820 --> 00:11:37,439 Joshua Fletcher: the pressure's on and it's good to have a bit 191 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:41,700 Joshua Fletcher: of anxiety for this, because anxiety's performance enhancing, it can 192 00:11:41,700 --> 00:11:44,069 Joshua Fletcher: be anyway, to an extent, but you'll learn to get 193 00:11:44,070 --> 00:11:46,380 Joshua Fletcher: better at it, so one at a time. Let's do the first 194 00:11:46,380 --> 00:11:48,959 Joshua Fletcher: one, see how we go, then do the second one. 195 00:11:49,170 --> 00:11:51,570 Joshua Fletcher: You might hit hurdles. I know my mate, when he 196 00:11:51,570 --> 00:11:54,449 Joshua Fletcher: did his exams, he failed a few, but he got back 197 00:11:54,450 --> 00:11:59,490 Joshua Fletcher: on the horse and passed them. Go easy and realize 198 00:12:00,300 --> 00:12:01,980 Joshua Fletcher: I'm also building my resilience. 199 00:12:02,100 --> 00:12:03,630 Krutika Adatia : When I was studying, I would have a lot of 200 00:12:03,630 --> 00:12:06,929 Krutika Adatia : negative chatter in my mind when I was going through 201 00:12:06,929 --> 00:12:09,630 Krutika Adatia : the exams, the, " I should be doing this.", or, " I 202 00:12:09,630 --> 00:12:13,439 Krutika Adatia : can't do this, I don't think I will succeed." How 203 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:17,729 Krutika Adatia : can we go about actually silencing that negative chatter? Is 204 00:12:17,730 --> 00:12:18,718 Krutika Adatia : it even possible? 205 00:12:19,350 --> 00:12:23,640 Joshua Fletcher: Understanding it helps it to appear quieter. Understanding your own internal 206 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:27,360 Joshua Fletcher: narrative is important. That's why I love therapy. I became 207 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:30,030 Joshua Fletcher: a therapist because I realized the power of understanding where 208 00:12:30,090 --> 00:12:33,270 Joshua Fletcher: negative internal dialogues come from and stuff. I still see 209 00:12:33,270 --> 00:12:35,580 Joshua Fletcher: a counselor now. It's great. I treat it like going to 210 00:12:35,670 --> 00:12:39,479 Joshua Fletcher: the gym, look after my brain. You can show off 211 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:42,179 Joshua Fletcher: on Instagram and going to the gym, but if you've 212 00:12:42,179 --> 00:12:45,270 Joshua Fletcher: got this internal chatter like, " You should be doing this, 213 00:12:45,270 --> 00:12:48,300 Joshua Fletcher: you're going to fail.", or whatever, that's learned. Where'd you 214 00:12:48,300 --> 00:12:53,520 Joshua Fletcher: learn that from? Are you being compared to successful siblings? Are 215 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:56,640 Joshua Fletcher: your parents trying to live vicariously through you? Do you 216 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:58,740 Joshua Fletcher: have an absent parent, so you put a lot of 217 00:12:58,740 --> 00:13:03,420 Joshua Fletcher: pressure on yourself to succeed and feel worthy? Maybe you 218 00:13:03,420 --> 00:13:06,300 Joshua Fletcher: compare yourself to your friends or something. I don't know. Maybe your partner 219 00:13:06,300 --> 00:13:09,510 Joshua Fletcher: ran off with a really cool chartered accountant who passed 220 00:13:09,510 --> 00:13:14,790 Joshua Fletcher: the exams first time. Look at where that internal dialogue 221 00:13:14,790 --> 00:13:17,640 Joshua Fletcher: comes from. I get it now and then, and I'm just 222 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:21,540 Joshua Fletcher: like, no. Sometimes there's echoes from the past. Sometimes it's 223 00:13:21,540 --> 00:13:25,199 Joshua Fletcher: just me being hard on myself. But you don't need 224 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:27,000 Joshua Fletcher: to engage with it. That's the thing. You can't turn 225 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:29,309 Joshua Fletcher: it off. You can't stop thoughts and you can't stop 226 00:13:29,309 --> 00:13:31,800 Joshua Fletcher: internal dialogue, but you can choose to engage with it 227 00:13:31,830 --> 00:13:35,250 Joshua Fletcher: or not. I say, " Okay, if you want to chat 228 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:38,100 Joshua Fletcher: today." And the same with intrusive thoughts pop into your head, " 229 00:13:38,850 --> 00:13:40,920 Joshua Fletcher: All right, you've decided to pop in, have you? Well, 230 00:13:41,670 --> 00:13:44,339 Joshua Fletcher: not bothered. My attention's over here. I'm not going to 231 00:13:44,340 --> 00:13:49,410 Joshua Fletcher: force you away, but leave quietly when you're ready." Because 232 00:13:49,410 --> 00:13:51,870 Joshua Fletcher: what you resist, persists, so then you can't get rid 233 00:13:51,870 --> 00:13:54,719 Joshua Fletcher: of them, which is really something I learned the hard way 234 00:13:55,890 --> 00:13:58,620 Krutika Adatia : I know earlier you mentioned what helps is seeing a 235 00:13:58,620 --> 00:14:01,860 Krutika Adatia : counselor or speaking with a therapist, but I'm also thinking 236 00:14:01,860 --> 00:14:05,970 Krutika Adatia : about some of our listeners who might not always have access to 237 00:14:05,970 --> 00:14:09,660 Krutika Adatia : things like that or perhaps don't even realize that they 238 00:14:09,660 --> 00:14:14,130 Krutika Adatia : have some sort of chronic anxiety. I'm Indian by culture 239 00:14:14,130 --> 00:14:17,550 Krutika Adatia : and in my culture, for example, we don't really talk 240 00:14:17,550 --> 00:14:22,080 Krutika Adatia : about emotions as much. Perhaps more so now certainly, but 241 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:24,420 Krutika Adatia : it's something that we just brush under the carpet. I'm 242 00:14:24,450 --> 00:14:29,370 Krutika Adatia : just thinking someone from a particular community or a society, 243 00:14:29,730 --> 00:14:34,800 Krutika Adatia : they may not have the cognizance to actually recognize that 244 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:40,230 Krutika Adatia : they're experiencing some sort of chronic anxiety. At what point 245 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:43,050 Krutika Adatia : do we know that we ought to seek help? How 246 00:14:43,050 --> 00:14:44,970 Krutika Adatia : do we realize that for ourselves? 247 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:48,840 Joshua Fletcher: To seek help for yourself, whether it's reaching out to 248 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:52,800 Joshua Fletcher: other people or if you're a very private person, help 249 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:56,220 Joshua Fletcher: can also be self- help. But you're right, emotional conservatism 250 00:14:58,140 --> 00:15:03,330 Joshua Fletcher: can be very cultural. Depending on your background, where you 251 00:15:03,330 --> 00:15:06,690 Joshua Fletcher: live, the community you're in, it could be an absolute no- 252 00:15:06,690 --> 00:15:11,460 Joshua Fletcher: no, I wouldn't know how to do that. But, you 253 00:15:11,460 --> 00:15:16,170 Joshua Fletcher: can talk to people professionally. And if worst comes to 254 00:15:16,170 --> 00:15:18,660 Joshua Fletcher: worst, just read up about it, read up on it, 255 00:15:18,660 --> 00:15:20,790 Joshua Fletcher: find the experts and stuff, look at the good self- 256 00:15:20,790 --> 00:15:23,550 Joshua Fletcher: help things, learn about your brain. That's the kind thing 257 00:15:23,550 --> 00:15:26,489 Joshua Fletcher: to do to yourself. And then, if you feel a 258 00:15:26,490 --> 00:15:29,730 Joshua Fletcher: bit more informed and you might even feel a bit 259 00:15:29,730 --> 00:15:33,780 Joshua Fletcher: braver, to look at maybe then seeking help. If you've 260 00:15:33,780 --> 00:15:36,420 Joshua Fletcher: got a trusted friend to talk to, if you're lucky 261 00:15:36,450 --> 00:15:40,140 Joshua Fletcher: enough to have that, that can be helpful too, and 262 00:15:40,140 --> 00:15:42,570 Joshua Fletcher: just not keeping it to yourself. Trying to bury it 263 00:15:42,570 --> 00:15:46,710 Joshua Fletcher: out of shame doesn't work. I've tried it. It doesn't work. 264 00:15:47,100 --> 00:15:48,900 Joshua Fletcher: Your stress jug stays very full. 265 00:15:50,100 --> 00:15:52,020 Krutika Adatia : I guess the next question I wanted to ask you 266 00:15:52,020 --> 00:15:58,050 Krutika Adatia : is, we've spoken about the thoughts, feelings, sensations around anxiety, 267 00:15:58,050 --> 00:16:02,220 Krutika Adatia : but how does anxiety impact things like your sleep and 268 00:16:02,220 --> 00:16:05,790 Krutika Adatia : your diet and your nutrition? Is there any implications that 269 00:16:05,790 --> 00:16:08,970 Krutika Adatia : we see on those factors as a result of anxiety? 270 00:16:09,330 --> 00:16:14,430 Joshua Fletcher: Anxious people, their appetites will either increase or decrease and 271 00:16:14,430 --> 00:16:17,310 Joshua Fletcher: it might affect the foods that they want to eat. 272 00:16:19,110 --> 00:16:21,660 Joshua Fletcher: It's very common for anxious people to go towards sugary 273 00:16:21,660 --> 00:16:25,440 Joshua Fletcher: foods and carb- heavy foods, because to replenish the energy 274 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:28,200 Joshua Fletcher: and because of blood sugar shifts and stuff. I'm not 275 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:32,820 Joshua Fletcher: one of those anxiety gurus that pours attention into nutrition 276 00:16:32,820 --> 00:16:35,250 Joshua Fletcher: and stuff like that. Because it can be compulsive, and 277 00:16:35,250 --> 00:16:38,550 Joshua Fletcher: actually if you're a perfectionist, you start to try to 278 00:16:38,550 --> 00:16:41,280 Joshua Fletcher: fix yourself. There's a lot of that in my field. 279 00:16:41,490 --> 00:16:45,990 Joshua Fletcher: I like going round and appearing really self- righteous by saying, " 280 00:16:46,410 --> 00:16:50,760 Joshua Fletcher: You don't need thrice- fermented kimchi to feel better. You 281 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:54,360 Joshua Fletcher: need to understand that you are the coping technique with your anxiety and 282 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:57,540 Joshua Fletcher: identify the hurdles from stopping you realizing that." 283 00:16:57,900 --> 00:16:59,520 Krutika Adatia : And you know what? I can relate to a bit of 284 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:02,730 Krutika Adatia : that, because I feel I can be a bit of a perfectionist sometimes, trying 285 00:17:02,730 --> 00:17:06,003 Krutika Adatia : to get everything in order and... Yeah, so I 286 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:09,659 Krutika Adatia : totally relate to that. Josh, what about exercise when it 287 00:17:09,660 --> 00:17:12,090 Krutika Adatia : comes to dealing with anxiety? I've heard that that sometimes 288 00:17:12,090 --> 00:17:13,830 Krutika Adatia : helps to calm yourself. 289 00:17:14,970 --> 00:17:18,330 Joshua Fletcher: I think exercise is good for when you're stressed. And 290 00:17:18,330 --> 00:17:21,690 Joshua Fletcher: if you are feeling a bit anxious, exercise is a good way to 291 00:17:21,690 --> 00:17:27,030 Joshua Fletcher: burn the excess adrenaline and cortisol that's pumping around. But 292 00:17:27,030 --> 00:17:30,389 Joshua Fletcher: it comes with a pre- warning. It depends on your 293 00:17:30,390 --> 00:17:35,580 Joshua Fletcher: relationship with exercise. If you are exercising compulsively to run 294 00:17:35,580 --> 00:17:38,910 Joshua Fletcher: away from a feeling, then I would look at that. 295 00:17:39,030 --> 00:17:41,760 Joshua Fletcher: So, it depends on your relationship with it. Obviously exercise is good, 296 00:17:42,300 --> 00:17:47,340 Joshua Fletcher: fills the brain with serotonin and dopamine, of course. But 297 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:50,909 Joshua Fletcher: I'm just concerned about people. If you're on the verge 298 00:17:50,910 --> 00:17:55,950 Joshua Fletcher: of burnout, maybe doing two hours in the gym isn't 299 00:17:55,950 --> 00:18:00,030 Joshua Fletcher: the correct thing to do, maybe something slow paced, maybe 300 00:18:00,030 --> 00:18:03,180 Joshua Fletcher: something sedentary. I mean, I go to the gym most days, but some 301 00:18:03,180 --> 00:18:06,840 Joshua Fletcher: days I tune into my body, that's probably not a 302 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:12,030 Joshua Fletcher: good idea today. In general, exercise is great, stress- busting 303 00:18:12,030 --> 00:18:16,680 Joshua Fletcher: stuff, good mood balancer, and a good way to burn 304 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:20,609 Joshua Fletcher: through that adrenaline and cortisol. But don't do it when 305 00:18:20,609 --> 00:18:22,020 Joshua Fletcher: you're running on fumes. 306 00:18:22,740 --> 00:18:24,510 Krutika Adatia : In terms of one of my final questions that I 307 00:18:24,510 --> 00:18:28,859 Krutika Adatia : wanted to ask you is around the strategies and techniques 308 00:18:28,859 --> 00:18:32,850 Krutika Adatia : that students can use specifically around exam time or when 309 00:18:32,850 --> 00:18:35,969 Krutika Adatia : it's revision period for managing their anxiety and keeping it 310 00:18:35,970 --> 00:18:38,129 Krutika Adatia : at bay. I know you've alluded to a few things 311 00:18:38,130 --> 00:18:41,100 Krutika Adatia : already, but if you could summarize that for us. 312 00:18:41,730 --> 00:18:45,540 Joshua Fletcher: If you are struggling with anxiety now and listening to this, just 313 00:18:45,540 --> 00:18:50,700 Joshua Fletcher: identify what type of anxiety it is. I think it's really important. If you're conventionally 314 00:18:50,700 --> 00:18:54,119 Joshua Fletcher: anxious and you're worried about things external from you, so 315 00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:56,550 Joshua Fletcher: I'm worried about the result of this exam, I'm worried 316 00:18:56,550 --> 00:18:59,700 Joshua Fletcher: about finances, I'm just worried about things around me in 317 00:18:59,700 --> 00:19:04,740 Joshua Fletcher: my life, then my advice to you is notice that... Okay, 318 00:19:04,830 --> 00:19:07,649 Joshua Fletcher: take a step back, be kind to yourself, and be like, right, 319 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:09,900 Joshua Fletcher: I'm not going to try and solve all this through 320 00:19:09,900 --> 00:19:13,890 Joshua Fletcher: the lens of worry and threat. Because it doesn't work. 321 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:17,820 Joshua Fletcher: It's like googling a headache while you're anxious, never ends well. 322 00:19:17,820 --> 00:19:20,490 Joshua Fletcher: You're planning your funeral two days later because you're not 323 00:19:20,490 --> 00:19:26,310 Joshua Fletcher: seeing it rationally. I'd say, take a step back, zone 324 00:19:26,310 --> 00:19:30,660 Joshua Fletcher: out for a bit. Commit your attention and focus to 325 00:19:30,660 --> 00:19:35,640 Joshua Fletcher: something that's wholesome for you. For me, in the middle 326 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:38,670 Joshua Fletcher: of writing books and stuff, when I really was under 327 00:19:38,670 --> 00:19:41,399 Joshua Fletcher: the pressure of deadlines, I actually just had to have 328 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:43,889 Joshua Fletcher: a day off where I didn't do anything. Even though 329 00:19:43,890 --> 00:19:45,570 Joshua Fletcher: the deadline was looming, I was like, no, because I'm 330 00:19:45,570 --> 00:19:47,700 Joshua Fletcher: going to burn out. So, I just sat in a dark 331 00:19:47,700 --> 00:19:52,050 Joshua Fletcher: room and played PlayStation. But it's what works for you. 332 00:19:52,050 --> 00:19:53,190 Joshua Fletcher: Some people are like, " You know what? I'm just going to 333 00:19:53,190 --> 00:19:55,109 Joshua Fletcher: go for a nice walk in nature.", or, " I'm going 334 00:19:55,109 --> 00:19:58,439 Joshua Fletcher: to see a friend.", and things like that. Vocalize it. 335 00:19:59,670 --> 00:20:02,430 Joshua Fletcher: I do love the jug analogy, which is, I can 336 00:20:02,430 --> 00:20:04,619 Joshua Fletcher: feel this stress building up there. What can I do 337 00:20:04,619 --> 00:20:08,669 Joshua Fletcher: for me to empty my stress jug? And your stress is your stress. 338 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:12,720 Joshua Fletcher: I wish I could say, stand on your head, deep breathe, 339 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:15,480 Joshua Fletcher: box breathe, whatever, do all these things like everyone else does. 340 00:20:15,990 --> 00:20:19,919 Joshua Fletcher: I've done them all. Yes, it helps. Being mindful and 341 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:23,609 Joshua Fletcher: meditative when you're stressed is really helpful. Try not to 342 00:20:23,609 --> 00:20:25,830 Joshua Fletcher: do it in reaction, try to do it as preventative. 343 00:20:26,490 --> 00:20:31,230 Joshua Fletcher: But try not to immerse yourself in the stress, and 344 00:20:31,230 --> 00:20:34,859 Joshua Fletcher: learn to give yourself permission to take a step back. 345 00:20:35,550 --> 00:20:37,710 Joshua Fletcher: It doesn't have to be as consuming as you think. 346 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:42,570 Joshua Fletcher: Learn that you are more capable of tolerating things than 347 00:20:42,570 --> 00:20:46,439 Joshua Fletcher: you believe. Obviously, if you can, talk to someone. You 348 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:48,150 Joshua Fletcher: can always talk to your doctor and things like that, 349 00:20:48,150 --> 00:20:52,260 Joshua Fletcher: or a trusted person. Definitely, let your doctor know. And 350 00:20:52,260 --> 00:20:56,190 Joshua Fletcher: learn about how your anxiety presents because, actually, the approach 351 00:20:56,190 --> 00:21:00,780 Joshua Fletcher: for different anxieties is different. It varies. I often get 352 00:21:00,780 --> 00:21:05,160 Joshua Fletcher: asked on newspaper and radio and all that, " Number one anxiety- 353 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,460 Joshua Fletcher: busting technique?" And I'm like, " It depends on your anxiety." 354 00:21:08,460 --> 00:21:12,330 Krutika Adatia : That's really well put, because it will be individual to 355 00:21:12,330 --> 00:21:15,930 Krutika Adatia : everyone. Thank you, Josh, and I know you've said some great 356 00:21:15,930 --> 00:21:18,600 Krutika Adatia : things already, but if there were three things you want 357 00:21:18,810 --> 00:21:22,230 Krutika Adatia : listeners to take away from our conversation today, what would 358 00:21:22,230 --> 00:21:23,970 Krutika Adatia : those top three things be? 359 00:21:24,630 --> 00:21:27,660 Joshua Fletcher: Number one is, you are the coping technique, so trying 360 00:21:27,660 --> 00:21:33,030 Joshua Fletcher: to find them. Because for the brain to wire, to 361 00:21:33,300 --> 00:21:36,300 Joshua Fletcher: switch off the threat response, it has to believe that 362 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:38,790 Joshua Fletcher: you are the one that can cope with it. Don't 363 00:21:38,790 --> 00:21:41,880 Joshua Fletcher: get me wrong, ask for help and learn and get 364 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:45,390 Joshua Fletcher: there and remove the hurdles, but try not to waste 365 00:21:45,390 --> 00:21:49,350 Joshua Fletcher: your time trying to find things external from you to 366 00:21:49,770 --> 00:21:53,310 Joshua Fletcher: help a belief that you can function. You can function, 367 00:21:53,369 --> 00:21:55,320 Joshua Fletcher: and learn that. I always say that, particularly people with 368 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:59,880 Joshua Fletcher: panic attacks and excessive anxiety. Step two is, go easy 369 00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:04,200 Joshua Fletcher: on yourself. If you're already stressed and you're feeling anxious, 370 00:22:04,619 --> 00:22:08,159 Joshua Fletcher: less is more. Go easy. You're going to hear that 371 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:11,699 Joshua Fletcher: inner critic, just let them chat, you don't need to 372 00:22:11,700 --> 00:22:18,930 Joshua Fletcher: engage. Number three, stop comparing. It's okay. Don't compare yourself 373 00:22:18,930 --> 00:22:22,109 Joshua Fletcher: to others. You'll get there in your own way. Your 374 00:22:22,109 --> 00:22:26,940 Joshua Fletcher: value is not dictated on your output. Your value is 375 00:22:27,420 --> 00:22:32,129 Joshua Fletcher: holistic. You have multiple facets of yourself. Doing exams and 376 00:22:32,130 --> 00:22:34,649 Joshua Fletcher: studying to be an accountant of things are just one 377 00:22:34,650 --> 00:22:38,460 Joshua Fletcher: facet of what I presume would be an amazing self. 378 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:41,250 Krutika Adatia : Thank you, Josh. I'm so glad you said the last 379 00:22:41,250 --> 00:22:45,000 Krutika Adatia : one. I'm referencing a quote here that I've read, " Comparison 380 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:47,700 Krutika Adatia : is the thief of all joy.", so I like that 381 00:22:47,700 --> 00:22:50,760 Krutika Adatia : one. That was really insightful. Where can our listeners get 382 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:52,439 Krutika Adatia : more information about you and your work? 383 00:22:53,730 --> 00:22:57,810 Joshua Fletcher: I'm Joshua Fletcher, or Anxiety Josh on social media. I 384 00:22:57,810 --> 00:23:00,780 Joshua Fletcher: write books and I have my own anxiety self- help 385 00:23:00,780 --> 00:23:03,840 Joshua Fletcher: podcast called Disordered. Feel free to go check it out. My 386 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:08,040 Joshua Fletcher: website is schoolofanxiety. com. Which is a school for anxious 387 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:10,500 Joshua Fletcher: people, it's not, it was a silly name, but I stuck by it. 388 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:12,151 Joshua Fletcher: Thank you for having me on. I really enjoyed it. 389 00:23:12,151 --> 00:23:16,530 Krutika Adatia : That's it from this episode of On Your Marks. Thank you, 390 00:23:16,530 --> 00:23:20,129 Krutika Adatia : Josh, for chatting with me today. For more information about 391 00:23:20,130 --> 00:23:26,280 Krutika Adatia : ACCA exams, you can go to www. accaglobal. com/ exams. 392 00:23:26,910 --> 00:23:29,190 Krutika Adatia : And to watch the video version of this podcast, check 393 00:23:29,190 --> 00:23:33,150 Krutika Adatia : out the link in the show notes. I'm Krutika Adatia and this has 394 00:23:33,150 --> 00:23:35,909 Krutika Adatia : been On Your Marks. On Your Marks is a Fresh 395 00:23:35,910 --> 00:23:40,050 Krutika Adatia : Air Production for ACCA. Its lead producer is Eva Higginbotham 396 00:23:40,290 --> 00:23:43,800 Krutika Adatia : and its executive producer is Annie Day. The videographer is 397 00:23:44,250 --> 00:23:47,850 Krutika Adatia : Yohan Forbes and the sound engineer is Basil Oxtoby. See 398 00:23:47,850 --> 00:23:48,570 Krutika Adatia : you next time.