WEBVTT - Green Hydrogen – A Hero of Energy Transition 0:00:01.710 --> 0:00:05.940 Hello and welcome to the Process Automation Podcast, a podcast 0:00:05.940 --> 0:00:10.079 from ABB that shines a light on their process automation business 0:00:10.260 --> 0:00:13.259 and the work they're doing around the world. I'm Fran 0:00:13.259 --> 0:00:18.419 Scott, scientist maker and all around engineering geek. Across this 0:00:18.450 --> 0:00:22.680 series, we've been exploring the invisible force of automation. So 0:00:22.680 --> 0:00:26.820 that's the incredible processes happening under the surface that enable 0:00:26.820 --> 0:00:29.519 us to live our day- to- day lives. From the 0:00:29.520 --> 0:00:32.309 heating in our homes to the energy that powers it, 0:00:32.340 --> 0:00:37.110 ABB's technologies are working behind the scenes to orchestrate industrial 0:00:37.110 --> 0:00:42.150 processes, machinery and systems. Today, we are looking at the 0:00:42.150 --> 0:00:46.620 future of using hydrogen, specifically a green hydrogen as an 0:00:46.620 --> 0:00:51.000 energy source. The demand for hydrogen is growing. According to 0:00:51.000 --> 0:00:54.899 the International Energy Agency, clean hydrogen is currently enjoying on 0:00:54.900 --> 0:00:59.370 unprecedented momentum with the number of policies and projects around 0:00:59.370 --> 0:01:04.170 the world expanding so rapidly. We'll get onto what is 0:01:04.170 --> 0:01:08.249 green hydrogen later in this episode, but let's start with 0:01:08.250 --> 0:01:12.630 the why. Hydrogen has great potential to play a really 0:01:12.630 --> 0:01:15.990 important role in helping the world meet its climate goals, 0:01:16.200 --> 0:01:20.580 particularly when it comes to decarbonizing heavy industries where emissions 0:01:20.580 --> 0:01:24.720 are hard to offset. According to the Hydrogen Council, around 0:01:24.750 --> 0:01:28.649 18% of global energy demand could be met by hydrogen 0:01:28.859 --> 0:01:34.380 by 2050. The pursuit of hydrogen production processes powered entirely 0:01:34.380 --> 0:01:38.250 by renewables is forecasted by Morgan Stanley to drive the 0:01:38.250 --> 0:01:42.690 hydrogen market forward from a value of $ 150 billion in 0:01:42.690 --> 0:01:50.070 2020 to an estimated $ 600 billion by 2050, but more 0:01:50.070 --> 0:01:54.060 significant than its rise in fortunes is the shift in 0:01:54.060 --> 0:01:57.809 demand that will actually fuel that growth. According to the 0:01:57.809 --> 0:02:01.499 latest reports by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, the 0:02:01.500 --> 0:02:05.489 main areas of demand are the power generation, industrial processes, 0:02:05.549 --> 0:02:10.529 and transport sectors. Accounting for a whopping 71% of all carbon 0:02:10.530 --> 0:02:14.849 dioxide emissions, the potential and appetite to grow the hydrogen 0:02:14.849 --> 0:02:19.440 economy is evident. In this episode, we are going to 0:02:19.440 --> 0:02:23.009 dive deeper into green hydrogen, the positive impact it can 0:02:23.010 --> 0:02:26.940 have globally along with the challenges that the industry faces 0:02:26.940 --> 0:02:30.510 and how we can solve them. Today, I'll be speaking 0:02:30.510 --> 0:02:34.260 with Bruno Roche, global head of energy transition at ABB 0:02:34.320 --> 0:02:39.599 Energy Industries along with Christelle Rouille, CEO of Hynamics, about 0:02:39.599 --> 0:02:43.440 where we are seeing green hydrogen being used. But first, 0:02:43.440 --> 0:02:47.070 I spoke to Marc- Antoine Eyl- Mazzega, director of the 0:02:47.070 --> 0:02:50.969 energy and climate center at Ifri, French Institute for International 0:02:50.970 --> 0:02:54.059 Relations, about what hydrogen is and why it might be 0:02:54.059 --> 0:02:55.918 the solution for the energy sector. 0:02:56.758 --> 0:03:01.560 In today's world, there is some significant hydrogen production mainly 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:07.168 at refineries, oil and petrochemical plants. In the refinery segment, 0:03:07.410 --> 0:03:10.860 the hydrogen is produced from natural gas or coal and 0:03:10.860 --> 0:03:14.340 is being incorporated into fuels, so as to clean them 0:03:14.340 --> 0:03:19.139 up. In the petrochemical sector, the hydrogen is used to 0:03:19.139 --> 0:03:23.160 produce fertilizers such as ammonia, which are then used to 0:03:23.160 --> 0:03:27.630 grow crops all across the world. So we are facing 0:03:27.630 --> 0:03:30.750 here a double issue. One is to decarbonize the current 0:03:30.900 --> 0:03:35.160 users for hydrogen and the current supply of hydrogen, and that 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:38.610 is already quite a significant challenge. And then we are 0:03:38.610 --> 0:03:44.309 talking about ramping up the use and production of clean 0:03:44.309 --> 0:03:47.969 hydrogen as a energy vector. That is something that is 0:03:47.969 --> 0:03:52.949 produced from other fuels, notably natural gas combined with carbon 0:03:52.949 --> 0:03:57.540 capture and storage or low- carbon electricity. And then to 0:03:57.780 --> 0:04:03.510 deploy this hydrogen into new users such as in the energy sector 0:04:03.599 --> 0:04:08.040 or in the industry sector in order to complement electrification 0:04:08.340 --> 0:04:12.930 and to really enable the deep decarbonization of our energy 0:04:12.930 --> 0:04:15.990 systems on the one hand and, of course, the industries on the other hand. 0:04:16.320 --> 0:04:18.930 Brilliant. You have hit the nail on the head there 0:04:18.930 --> 0:04:21.089 because the thing that we really want to focus on 0:04:21.150 --> 0:04:26.790 is green hydrogen. So what exactly is green hydrogen? 0:04:27.330 --> 0:04:31.500 Well, when we talk about green hydrogen, we talk about 0:04:31.500 --> 0:04:38.160 hydrogen that is produced from basically electricity coming from renewable 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:43.259 sources that is wind, solar, but it can also be 0:04:43.259 --> 0:04:47.580 from hydro and potentially it can also be from nuclear. 0:04:47.639 --> 0:04:51.000 But in that case, it won't be called green. Green 0:04:51.000 --> 0:04:55.950 really focuses on the wind and solar electricity. So this 0:04:55.950 --> 0:05:00.599 electricity is passed through an electrolyzer where it breaks water 0:05:00.599 --> 0:05:05.998 molecules and as a result, you have basically hydrogen, which 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:07.440 can be called green hydrogen. 0:05:07.650 --> 0:05:13.050 Interesting, interesting. I suppose, if we target down on the 0:05:13.050 --> 0:05:16.620 use of hydrogen as a solution when it comes to, 0:05:17.010 --> 0:05:21.299 I suppose, the energy sector, why is hydrogen better than 0:05:21.299 --> 0:05:22.469 what we've got at the moment? 0:05:23.369 --> 0:05:28.799 When considering the future of clean or say, green hydrogen in 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:34.500 our energy or industrial systems, I think the key issue 0:05:34.500 --> 0:05:40.289 is to really understand that this is a critical complement to 0:05:40.350 --> 0:05:45.270 electrification and that it is not a magic solution. The 0:05:45.270 --> 0:05:50.250 priority is and will always be electrification. There is a 0:05:50.250 --> 0:05:53.609 huge range of progress we have to achieve in this 0:05:53.610 --> 0:05:59.849 field. So using clean electricity, low- carbon electricity to power 0:06:00.420 --> 0:06:05.790 industries, to power mobility, to power residential heat. But then 0:06:05.790 --> 0:06:09.210 comes hydrogen, and hydrogen goes there and is meant to 0:06:09.210 --> 0:06:14.370 go there where low- carbon electricity cannot deliver all its 0:06:14.370 --> 0:06:18.688 potential in what we call so- called hard- to- abate 0:06:18.690 --> 0:06:22.680 sectors. So electricity can deliver a lot, but it cannot 0:06:22.680 --> 0:06:27.060 do everything. This is exactly then when hydrogen should come in. 0:06:27.210 --> 0:06:29.339 But if we look at the world as it is 0:06:29.339 --> 0:06:33.719 now, where is hydrogen being utilized right now? 0:06:34.260 --> 0:06:39.240 In today's world, hydrogen production takes place basically everywhere where 0:06:39.240 --> 0:06:45.510 there are large refineries or large petrochemical production, and also 0:06:45.599 --> 0:06:49.349 needs for where there is large fertilizer demand. So basically, 0:06:49.349 --> 0:06:53.279 we're talking about the Middle East, China, Northern America, and 0:06:53.279 --> 0:06:54.329 Europe mainly. 0:06:54.960 --> 0:06:58.440 Hydrogen itself is not easy to store, is it? 0:06:59.279 --> 0:07:03.029 No, it's challenging to store hydrogen. You can store it 0:07:03.029 --> 0:07:06.390 in various forms. You can transport it in various forms. 0:07:06.690 --> 0:07:10.709 It can be gaseous. It can be liquid, can be 0:07:10.740 --> 0:07:15.390 compressed. But the key thing that... It comes all with 0:07:15.390 --> 0:07:18.990 costs and constraints. If you have to compress the hydrogen 0:07:19.230 --> 0:07:22.950 at say 70 bars, it requires a lot of electricity. 0:07:23.250 --> 0:07:25.830 So there's a lot of challenges that are related to 0:07:25.830 --> 0:07:30.960 that. Technically, one can do several things of course now. 0:07:30.960 --> 0:07:33.960 But then the question is really the economics and the 0:07:33.960 --> 0:07:36.929 end usages, and what is exactly the purpose of the 0:07:36.930 --> 0:07:41.759 hydrogen that is going to be produced, and whether the production location is close to 0:07:41.759 --> 0:07:45.149 the end consumption or whether one needs to plant for 0:07:45.150 --> 0:07:49.319 larger transportation leg. But in principle, one can store it 0:07:49.320 --> 0:07:53.340 also in the depleted salted caverns. 0:07:53.550 --> 0:07:56.220 I think it'll be planet changing. Not to be dramatic, 0:07:56.220 --> 0:07:59.429 but I think it's got such huge potential. But my 0:07:59.429 --> 0:08:03.749 question to you is why aren't we seeing hydrogen everywhere 0:08:03.809 --> 0:08:06.839 right now, if it's so good? 0:08:07.350 --> 0:08:10.860 We don't see a lot of clean hydrogen production currently. 0:08:10.860 --> 0:08:14.970 Actually, there is only very, very, very tiny production of 0:08:15.150 --> 0:08:19.379 green or clean hydrogen because it requires a lot of 0:08:19.590 --> 0:08:26.100 electricity. It requires large scale electrolyzers, and it requires demand. 0:08:26.280 --> 0:08:29.850 That hydrogen is of course much more expensive than the 0:08:29.850 --> 0:08:33.088 hydrogen that is typically produced from coal or from natural 0:08:33.090 --> 0:08:36.689 gas. Of course, one could argue that gas- based hydrogen 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:40.410 is becoming more expensive, hence the green hydrogen is more 0:08:40.410 --> 0:08:43.708 competitive. But on the hand, the electricity prices have gone 0:08:43.710 --> 0:08:48.990 up. So for an electrolyzer to be economically viable, well, 0:08:48.990 --> 0:08:53.728 one would need to build massive large scale gigawatt capacities 0:08:53.730 --> 0:08:58.259 of electrolyzers to really the synergies, to get the production in 0:08:58.260 --> 0:09:02.400 series in various factories, to bring costs down. One would 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:05.910 need the permitting for these facilities to be much easier 0:09:06.059 --> 0:09:09.690 in order to reduce costs. Of course, one would need 0:09:09.690 --> 0:09:13.169 many running hours of these electrolyzers that is not just 0:09:13.170 --> 0:09:15.509 two or three hours per day when there is sun, 0:09:15.509 --> 0:09:19.470 wind, but actually many, many hours up to 24 to 0:09:19.470 --> 0:09:23.189 make sure that the quite important CapEx is then amortized 0:09:23.190 --> 0:09:27.690 on a high hourly utilization rate. Lastly, of course, what it needs 0:09:27.780 --> 0:09:31.499 is demand and the demand will come when the production 0:09:31.500 --> 0:09:35.429 cost and the utilization costs go down. In order to 0:09:35.429 --> 0:09:39.060 have that demand to build up, well, there will be 0:09:39.090 --> 0:09:43.860 measures of public support. For example, government's taking over the 0:09:43.860 --> 0:09:48.030 difference in cost between the current gray hydrogen, which is fossil- 0:09:48.030 --> 0:09:51.900 based and the clean green hydrogen of tomorrow and saying, " 0:09:51.900 --> 0:09:54.660 Okay, there is a gap, and I will cover that 0:09:54.660 --> 0:09:58.230 gap for a given time in order to help the 0:09:58.230 --> 0:10:01.559 ramp up of that critical industry because it matters for 0:10:01.559 --> 0:10:04.860 the economization because it matters for my industry policy, and 0:10:04.860 --> 0:10:07.468 I want to make sure it happens in my country." 0:10:07.620 --> 0:10:10.769 So when it comes to one way of making hydrogen, 0:10:10.920 --> 0:10:15.120 you have to utilize electricity to make that hydrogen, but 0:10:15.120 --> 0:10:20.099 then the use of that hydrogen in essence replaces electricity 0:10:20.099 --> 0:10:21.868 in some of the ways it's being used at the 0:10:21.870 --> 0:10:24.689 moment. So my question to you is what are the 0:10:24.780 --> 0:10:29.369 benefits of having that middle step of using hydrogen? 0:10:29.670 --> 0:10:34.020 Well, hydrogen production will come with many advantages. It will 0:10:34.020 --> 0:10:39.750 be an opportunity to use very low- cost abundant electricity 0:10:40.080 --> 0:10:42.000 when there is a lot of wind production, when there 0:10:42.000 --> 0:10:45.328 is a lot of solar production and actually not enough 0:10:45.330 --> 0:10:48.539 demand to absorb all that. It will be extremely beneficial 0:10:48.570 --> 0:10:52.710 to then put on the electrolyzers, make them work and 0:10:52.710 --> 0:10:57.420 absorb all that relatively cheap and abundant electricity when it's 0:10:57.420 --> 0:11:02.578 available. The second aspect is certainly that the electricity cannot 0:11:02.580 --> 0:11:06.239 produce all the very high- temperature heat that one needs. 0:11:06.299 --> 0:11:09.120 It can do quite a lot, but not everything and 0:11:09.120 --> 0:11:11.760 here, will be very useful to have the hydrogen in 0:11:11.760 --> 0:11:13.410 order to produce that heat. 0:11:19.380 --> 0:11:22.260 There is no doubt that hydrogen is set to play 0:11:22.260 --> 0:11:25.740 an important part in reaching the global net- zero target 0:11:25.740 --> 0:11:30.270 by 2050. However, as Mark touched on, there are challenges 0:11:30.270 --> 0:11:35.040 that the industry faces. Mainstream adoption and a sustainable hydrogen 0:11:35.040 --> 0:11:38.759 market is just not viable until the cost of production 0:11:38.759 --> 0:11:42.089 comes down. Until then, the world just will not be 0:11:42.090 --> 0:11:46.770 able to afford this potentially game- changing low- carbon solution. 0:11:47.370 --> 0:11:51.750 But can ABB's technologies help with that? Well, I spoke 0:11:51.750 --> 0:11:55.680 to Bruno Roche, global head of energy transition at ABB 0:11:55.740 --> 0:12:00.480 Energy Industries about these challenges and what the solution may be. 0:12:02.190 --> 0:12:04.949 I will start with safety. I think we should never 0:12:05.130 --> 0:12:08.160 underestimate the importance of safety, especially when we have this 0:12:08.160 --> 0:12:13.319 hydrogen with high pressure. The second I will mention is the demand. 0:12:13.320 --> 0:12:14.819 What I mean by that, you need to have a 0:12:14.820 --> 0:12:17.969 demand to justify a supply and a supply that can justify 0:12:17.969 --> 0:12:23.850 the demand. But the obvious challenge, which is probably the 0:12:23.850 --> 0:12:27.779 most important for us in the industry and the operator 0:12:28.050 --> 0:12:33.209 is the cost, because that's what will really allow a full 0:12:33.210 --> 0:12:37.348 deployment of hydrogen. The good news is that we have 0:12:37.350 --> 0:12:41.040 the answer. We have the answer. Technically, we are making very 0:12:41.040 --> 0:12:44.429 positive impact on the cost, and all the stakeholders are 0:12:44.429 --> 0:12:48.328 working hard to bring down the cost for building this hydrogen 0:12:48.750 --> 0:12:56.190 production facility and also operating hydrogen facilities. My message to 0:12:56.190 --> 0:12:59.309 you today is that you could imagine, and we have 0:12:59.309 --> 0:13:03.599 done that for traditional market, we are focusing and working 0:13:03.599 --> 0:13:08.759 to reduce the capital expenditure, but for hydrogen it includes 0:13:08.759 --> 0:13:14.490 also a big part of the operational expenditure. Just to 0:13:14.490 --> 0:13:18.690 put this into perspective, when you produce 1 kilogram of 0:13:18.690 --> 0:13:25.049 hydrogen today when you use electrolysis, so electricity to split 0:13:25.049 --> 0:13:29.669 the water molecule in hydrogen and oxygen, more than 70% of 0:13:29.879 --> 0:13:35.220 the cost comes from the electricity, and we know how volatile 0:13:35.220 --> 0:13:39.150 the electricity is. So the first challenge we are working 0:13:39.150 --> 0:13:41.790 on is to make sure that the cost will be 0:13:41.849 --> 0:13:47.039 brought down and this OpEx, as we say, is a 0:13:47.039 --> 0:13:49.828 focus number one to make the total cost of ownership 0:13:49.828 --> 0:13:53.340 of hydrogen to the levels that will allow a full deployment. 0:13:53.700 --> 0:13:56.578 When it comes to hydrogen, what is its role in 0:13:56.580 --> 0:13:58.319 the global energy transition? 0:13:58.620 --> 0:14:02.040 That's a very wide question Fran, and I will answer on 0:14:02.250 --> 0:14:04.650 what I focus. I don't say I have the solution, 0:14:04.650 --> 0:14:07.199 but I will tell you the four main pillar I'm 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:10.738 focusing on. The first one is about carbon capture. So 0:14:10.740 --> 0:14:16.468 we really want to decarbonize. The second is hydrogen. The two 0:14:16.469 --> 0:14:21.389 together can form a third that is alternative fuels. So 0:14:21.389 --> 0:14:24.450 I collect the carbon, I use green hydrogen, I produce 0:14:24.480 --> 0:14:28.290 new fuels. The fourth that I'm working on is about 0:14:28.290 --> 0:14:32.670 this recycling economy. That forms four pillar that I don't 0:14:32.670 --> 0:14:36.270 say are all... because energy transition it's super, super large. 0:14:36.570 --> 0:14:41.969 But these four ones are really embracing most of what 0:14:41.969 --> 0:14:46.920 we have to change in the future. Guess what? Hydrogen 0:14:47.790 --> 0:14:52.469 is a very important start and trigger for everything else 0:14:52.469 --> 0:14:56.369 to happen. So in my strategy, I put it first 0:14:56.370 --> 0:14:59.490 because we can only engage at the right costs with 0:14:59.490 --> 0:15:02.910 the right safety. That will make all a difference for 0:15:02.910 --> 0:15:07.170 the whole value chain round of energy transition to become a reality. 0:15:07.740 --> 0:15:12.660 Understood. So there are solutions on the way, but what 0:15:12.660 --> 0:15:16.680 are ABB doing specifically to help with these solutions? 0:15:17.010 --> 0:15:20.040 We have been focusing on reducing the cost to put a 0:15:20.040 --> 0:15:22.950 plant, a production plan up and running. So this is 0:15:22.950 --> 0:15:27.389 this capital expenditure costs. But what we are doing differently 0:15:27.389 --> 0:15:31.319 in ABB, it's thanks to the experience we have of 0:15:32.160 --> 0:15:35.549 spending time on the operation. So when the line operates... 0:15:35.549 --> 0:15:37.230 So this is down the line, this is two years, 0:15:37.230 --> 0:15:42.420 three years down the line before a project start. We 0:15:42.420 --> 0:15:48.509 are simulating the operations in order to optimize the cost, this 70% 0:15:48.509 --> 0:15:50.910 or more than this that I was referring to. So 0:15:50.910 --> 0:15:53.849 this is what we have done. We call it OPTIMAX, 0:15:54.209 --> 0:16:00.090 so optimization and maximization of production. Thanks to this we 0:16:00.090 --> 0:16:02.850 have been able to reduce or demonstrate we can reduce 0:16:03.179 --> 0:16:07.740 up to 14% in some cases of the total cost 0:16:07.799 --> 0:16:11.339 of hydrogen. So this is the main focus that we 0:16:11.340 --> 0:16:13.980 have been doing on top of, let's say, our traditional 0:16:14.280 --> 0:16:17.520 focuses that are known in the industry. 0:16:17.850 --> 0:16:21.809 Yeah, I suppose it's one thing looking at the optimization 0:16:21.809 --> 0:16:26.160 of the hydrogen production, but I suppose another area could 0:16:26.160 --> 0:16:30.479 be looking at the integration of more renewables. But how 0:16:30.480 --> 0:16:33.420 do you maintain that reliable power supply? 0:16:33.930 --> 0:16:38.370 That's another really good question because we speak about this, 0:16:38.550 --> 0:16:43.470 what the European Commission will call low- carbon hydrogen or 0:16:43.500 --> 0:16:47.190 more commonly, we call it green hydrogen. But this is 0:16:47.190 --> 0:16:51.990 coming from a process using electrons. If these electrons are 0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:56.160 green or low- carbon, this makes sense to make a 0:16:56.160 --> 0:16:59.730 green hydrogen, low- carbon hydrogen. But it's exactly what you 0:16:59.730 --> 0:17:02.759 said. This comes from the renewables. So that will be 0:17:02.759 --> 0:17:06.450 solar, that will be wind mostly that are in full 0:17:06.450 --> 0:17:11.370 deployment. But if you think about it, these are intermittent 0:17:11.700 --> 0:17:16.559 energy. Your point about making this reliable come with two 0:17:16.559 --> 0:17:18.720 point. The first thing, when we connect to the grid... 0:17:18.750 --> 0:17:21.270 And this is what you will see mostly in Europe. 0:17:21.780 --> 0:17:24.539 On top of connecting to the renewables, we also connect to 0:17:24.630 --> 0:17:29.010 the grid. When you do that in quite significant size 0:17:29.280 --> 0:17:35.070 project, so 10, 20 megawatt, 100 megawatt and more, the pollution, 0:17:35.070 --> 0:17:39.089 if I can say, that you could put back to 0:17:39.089 --> 0:17:44.310 the grid is critical for its stability. So we have all what 0:17:44.310 --> 0:17:47.760 it takes to prepare this to do the engineering studies, and 0:17:48.060 --> 0:17:52.709 this is quite important technical consideration, but we can make 0:17:52.710 --> 0:17:57.780 it. But now, I will turn the technical challenge into 0:17:57.780 --> 0:18:02.220 more commercial incentive. I explained, let's pretend that we are 0:18:02.220 --> 0:18:04.230 in another part of the world where we have wind, 0:18:04.230 --> 0:18:06.840 when we have solar at will. So we could say, " 0:18:06.869 --> 0:18:09.809 Yeah, that will be independent. We fully rely on renewable." 0:18:09.809 --> 0:18:12.270 And we can set the project to do that. But 0:18:12.270 --> 0:18:15.750 this comes with such sizes because after, there will be 0:18:15.750 --> 0:18:19.050 the transport or we speak projects of gigawatt scale. Gigawatt 0:18:19.050 --> 0:18:21.869 scale, we are already at the range of a nuclear 0:18:21.869 --> 0:18:28.888 plant, to give a perspective. Then governments whose task is 0:18:28.888 --> 0:18:32.759 to develop this new energy is also looking how to 0:18:32.759 --> 0:18:36.810 maintain, how to sustain, how to ensure that the grid 0:18:36.810 --> 0:18:40.920 will be stable. Guess what happen, in such size of 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:44.668 project, we can turn the challenge to link to the 0:18:44.670 --> 0:18:48.000 grid and make sure that we don't pollute it or 0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:53.849 disrupt it into loading and offloading it at will. In 0:18:53.850 --> 0:18:59.490 other words, we really turn this hydrogen large project as 0:18:59.640 --> 0:19:05.609 enabler to balance the grid, and this is looked at 0:19:05.969 --> 0:19:10.799 government more and more as another and a new way 0:19:10.920 --> 0:19:15.329 of benefiting from this hydrogen economy that is thriving. 0:19:15.388 --> 0:19:18.810 There seems to be so many avenues it can go down. 0:19:18.990 --> 0:19:22.890 So how far can we expect to scale up hydrogen 0:19:22.950 --> 0:19:26.820 realistically? Let's say, I don't know, in the next years, 0:19:26.820 --> 0:19:29.430 decades, where will we see it? 0:19:29.580 --> 0:19:33.240 Excellent question again. The direct answer will be the sky 0:19:33.240 --> 0:19:37.260 is the limit. I'm not kidding. This is really what happens. 0:19:37.260 --> 0:19:39.719 I will put that into numbers for you to understand 0:19:39.719 --> 0:19:42.510 what I mean about the pace of the scale- up, 0:19:42.599 --> 0:19:47.189 which is insane. Four years back, we were speaking about 0:19:47.190 --> 0:19:53.040 kilowatt scale. Three years back, first megawatt scale. Two years 0:19:53.040 --> 0:19:58.290 back, tens of megawatt. Last year, 100 of megawatt, and 0:19:58.290 --> 0:20:03.478 now we are seating at several gigawatt. This is an 0:20:03.480 --> 0:20:09.330 exponential growth, and how much it can scale up... Technically, 0:20:09.330 --> 0:20:11.760 we have what it is, and this is a good news also 0:20:12.210 --> 0:20:17.070 that we have an appetite from the economy to look 0:20:17.070 --> 0:20:21.388 for this low- carbon hydrogen. If I project myself, I 0:20:21.388 --> 0:20:24.420 will take hydrogen (inaudible) numbers. For example, they consider 0:20:24.780 --> 0:20:28.830 or they have shown that 18% of the global energy demand 0:20:29.430 --> 0:20:34.738 is expected to come from hydrogen by 2050. 18% of the 0:20:34.740 --> 0:20:39.178 global energy demand. This is huge numbers that we are 0:20:39.270 --> 0:20:46.619 speaking about here, and we are really realistically putting this 0:20:46.619 --> 0:20:51.000 line in operation step by step. But the step that 0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:55.678 we are each time, very important. We also have to 0:20:55.679 --> 0:21:00.629 do this in a safe and realistic manner. To your 0:21:00.630 --> 0:21:03.240 question, the sky is a limit. We can go super 0:21:03.240 --> 0:21:06.928 high. The time to do it is required to do 0:21:06.930 --> 0:21:11.550 the things properly and don't think that we stay still, 0:21:11.609 --> 0:21:14.219 and we do that taking our time. We also take 0:21:14.219 --> 0:21:18.240 risks. We are investing with the digital twin, we are 0:21:18.480 --> 0:21:22.619 partnering with OEM players. I'll take the example of hydrogen 0:21:22.619 --> 0:21:26.730 optimize. It's in ABB, one of the company with the 0:21:26.730 --> 0:21:30.120 disrupting technologies that may come in some years from now, 0:21:30.150 --> 0:21:35.369 but where we have invested for them to develop 100 0:21:35.369 --> 0:21:39.840 of megawatt per modules. So when we turn to gigawatt 0:21:39.840 --> 0:21:43.619 scale project, if you start with few megawatt modules, you 0:21:43.619 --> 0:21:47.428 need hundreds or thousands of them. This start not to 0:21:47.429 --> 0:21:49.679 be realistic. So we have to think about the next 0:21:49.679 --> 0:21:54.150 generation of this project, and we try from our side 0:21:54.270 --> 0:21:57.451 to really accelerate the innovation in order to make it happen. 0:21:57.451 --> 0:22:06.509 To deliver competitive low- carbon hydrogen, the performance of the electrolysis process, 0:22:06.509 --> 0:22:09.569 so that's the one that uses electricity to split water 0:22:09.570 --> 0:22:13.500 into hydrogen and oxygen, needs to be optimized so it 0:22:13.500 --> 0:22:18.390 can run the plant at the lowest possible price. OPTIMAX 0:22:18.390 --> 0:22:23.400 software system supports doing just this by serving every aspect 0:22:23.400 --> 0:22:28.590 of the hydrogen plant lifecycle from simulation, design, and engineering 0:22:28.590 --> 0:22:32.910 phases to real- time visibility and monitoring of energy consumption 0:22:33.060 --> 0:22:37.920 when it's actually in operation. ABB works with industry pioneers 0:22:37.950 --> 0:22:41.820 to optimize the efficiency of these really energy intensive electrolyzers 0:22:42.000 --> 0:22:46.168 to help reduce hydrogen production costs. One of these pioneers 0:22:46.170 --> 0:22:50.730 is EDF subsidiary group Hynamics and their CEO, Christelle Rouille, 0:22:50.970 --> 0:22:53.820 told me about the work Hynamics do with ABB. 0:22:55.859 --> 0:23:00.420 To be part of the decarbonization of the economy and to 0:23:00.420 --> 0:23:06.330 be part of building a great and cleaner planet for 0:23:06.359 --> 0:23:10.139 our children is really the most exciting thing that I 0:23:10.140 --> 0:23:11.400 have in my life. 0:23:11.820 --> 0:23:16.469 I've heard that Hynamics have collaborated with ABB. Could you 0:23:16.469 --> 0:23:19.139 explain a little bit about what this collaboration involved? 0:23:19.440 --> 0:23:23.549 Yeah, sure. We are really very happy for the signature 0:23:23.910 --> 0:23:31.290 with ABB and about this agreement to integrate the ABB ability OPTIMAX 0:23:31.650 --> 0:23:38.249 energy management system to reduce H₂ production costs. The system 0:23:38.369 --> 0:23:45.210 is, in fact, deployed at Hynamics production assets in Auxerre, which 0:23:45.210 --> 0:23:49.740 called Oxygen, which is a low- carbon H₂ production and 0:23:49.740 --> 0:23:56.009 distribution assets where we will supply hydrogen to different vehicles 0:23:56.070 --> 0:24:03.119 as buses. Maybe to be more consistent and detailed on 0:24:03.119 --> 0:24:09.869 that topic, I would say that the system provides data which can help 0:24:09.900 --> 0:24:17.189 determine optimal energy consumption levels required to produce hydrogen and 0:24:17.190 --> 0:24:19.020 minimize waste. 0:24:19.619 --> 0:24:24.898 Gotcha. When it comes to OPTIMAX, how does it do 0:24:24.900 --> 0:24:28.440 this? How does it reduce the cost of hydrogen production? 0:24:28.710 --> 0:24:33.119 Is it a case of looking at getting maximum efficiency 0:24:33.119 --> 0:24:35.820 of each part of the process, or could you break 0:24:35.820 --> 0:24:36.629 that down for me a bit? 0:24:37.409 --> 0:24:44.668 Yes. OPTIMAX is the tool that will have different data in order to 0:24:44.670 --> 0:24:50.849 be able to optimize the signal coming from the electricity 0:24:50.849 --> 0:24:58.590 sourcing and the signal of the consumption from the customers. This energy 0:24:58.590 --> 0:25:03.599 management system in a whole will be able to adapt 0:25:03.660 --> 0:25:06.688 the compartment, I would say, or the behavior of the 0:25:06.690 --> 0:25:11.040 electrolyzer because of these different data analysis. 0:25:11.250 --> 0:25:15.270 That's brilliant. So it basically looks at what the demand 0:25:15.270 --> 0:25:19.050 is doing and then make sure that the supply that 0:25:19.050 --> 0:25:22.560 it's drawing from the electricity to then produce the hydrogen 0:25:22.590 --> 0:25:25.859 matches the demand that is needed for the hydrogen that 0:25:25.859 --> 0:25:26.820 needs to be made? 0:25:26.940 --> 0:25:31.920 Yeah, sure. It is really the purpose and the brilliant 0:25:32.310 --> 0:25:34.230 idea of this tool. 0:25:34.770 --> 0:25:38.340 So you are not producing any in excess, but you 0:25:38.340 --> 0:25:39.840 are producing it when it's needed? 0:25:40.200 --> 0:25:45.059 And we're producing at the best cost in order, at 0:25:45.059 --> 0:25:50.310 least, to be able to be very competitive for this hydrogen 0:25:50.640 --> 0:25:57.060 price to our customers because the competition with the fossil 0:25:57.060 --> 0:26:02.250 hydrogen is still strong. It's very important for us to 0:26:02.250 --> 0:26:06.720 be able to replace that fossil hydrogen because of this 0:26:06.720 --> 0:26:11.130 optimization between electricity and consumption. 0:26:11.369 --> 0:26:14.968 Could you explain a little bit about what makes green 0:26:14.970 --> 0:26:19.499 hydrogen better than the other forms of energy or fuel? 0:26:19.888 --> 0:26:25.410 Yeah, sure. low- carbon and green hydrogen is the solution 0:26:25.440 --> 0:26:31.560 we want to put in place because producing hydrogen with or 0:26:31.560 --> 0:26:37.319 by electrolysis is a way to reduce the CO₂ emission and 0:26:37.320 --> 0:26:43.020 at least to decarbonate the whole economy. It is a 0:26:43.049 --> 0:26:49.500 good solution and of course better than the existing one, 0:26:49.650 --> 0:26:56.339 which is a fossil hydrogen right now, which is 95% 0:26:56.369 --> 0:26:58.530 of the hydrogen worldwide. 0:26:59.160 --> 0:27:03.090 Now, producing hydrogen by electrolysis, I don't think is a 0:27:03.090 --> 0:27:06.540 cheap process even at the moment when it's using these 0:27:06.600 --> 0:27:10.619 carbon based fuels. So changing that process of where you 0:27:10.619 --> 0:27:14.970 can produce hydrogen but you do it by using renewables, 0:27:15.420 --> 0:27:17.998 there's going to be cost involved, isn't there? Cost is 0:27:18.000 --> 0:27:20.820 going to be a huge part of this process. So 0:27:21.359 --> 0:27:24.840 what is being done in your expertise to keep the 0:27:24.840 --> 0:27:26.458 cost as low as it can be? 0:27:26.970 --> 0:27:31.170 It is challenging to produce hydrogen with that kind of 0:27:31.380 --> 0:27:38.520 technology electrolysis where, as you mentioned, we need renewable and/ 0:27:38.550 --> 0:27:45.150 or low- carbon electricity. Right now, the cost of electricity 0:27:45.388 --> 0:27:50.220 is very important. In the cost of hydrogen, it's almost 0:27:50.820 --> 0:27:58.109 50 to 70% at the end. So it's very important 0:27:58.109 --> 0:28:04.319 to be able to optimize the electricity sourcing compared to 0:28:04.320 --> 0:28:11.399 the H₂ conception that our customers need for supplying their 0:28:11.400 --> 0:28:20.280 process or the different vehicles. That's also why we had this 0:28:21.030 --> 0:28:27.359 agreement with ABB because this OPTIMAX solution is really a 0:28:27.359 --> 0:28:31.800 very good solution in order for us to reduce the 0:28:31.800 --> 0:28:40.350