Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to the Process Automation Podcast, a podcast
Speaker 1: from ABB that shines a light on their process automation business
Speaker 1: and the work they're doing around the world. I'm Fran
Speaker 1: Scott, scientist maker and all around engineering geek. Across this
Speaker 1: series, we've been exploring the invisible force of automation. So
Speaker 1: that's the incredible processes happening under the surface that enable
Speaker 1: us to live our day- to- day lives. From the
Speaker 1: heating in our homes to the energy that powers it,
Speaker 1: ABB's technologies are working behind the scenes to orchestrate industrial
Speaker 1: processes, machinery and systems. Today, we are looking at the
Speaker 1: future of using hydrogen, specifically a green hydrogen as an
Speaker 1: energy source. The demand for hydrogen is growing. According to
Speaker 1: the International Energy Agency, clean hydrogen is currently enjoying on
Speaker 1: unprecedented momentum with the number of policies and projects around
Speaker 1: the world expanding so rapidly. We'll get onto what is
Speaker 1: green hydrogen later in this episode, but let's start with
Speaker 1: the why. Hydrogen has great potential to play a really
Speaker 1: important role in helping the world meet its climate goals,
Speaker 1: particularly when it comes to decarbonizing heavy industries where emissions
Speaker 1: are hard to offset. According to the Hydrogen Council, around
Speaker 1: 18% of global energy demand could be met by hydrogen
Speaker 1: by 2050. The pursuit of hydrogen production processes powered entirely
Speaker 1: by renewables is forecasted by Morgan Stanley to drive the
Speaker 1: hydrogen market forward from a value of $ 150 billion in
Speaker 1: 2020 to an estimated $ 600 billion by 2050, but more
Speaker 1: significant than its rise in fortunes is the shift in
Speaker 1: demand that will actually fuel that growth. According to the
Speaker 1: latest reports by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, the
Speaker 1: main areas of demand are the power generation, industrial processes,
Speaker 1: and transport sectors. Accounting for a whopping 71% of all carbon
Speaker 1: dioxide emissions, the potential and appetite to grow the hydrogen
Speaker 1: economy is evident. In this episode, we are going to
Speaker 1: dive deeper into green hydrogen, the positive impact it can
Speaker 1: have globally along with the challenges that the industry faces
Speaker 1: and how we can solve them. Today, I'll be speaking
Speaker 1: with Bruno Roche, global head of energy transition at ABB
Speaker 1: Energy Industries along with Christelle Rouille, CEO of Hynamics, about
Speaker 1: where we are seeing green hydrogen being used. But first,
Speaker 1: I spoke to Marc- Antoine Eyl- Mazzega, director of the
Speaker 1: energy and climate center at Ifri, French Institute for International
Speaker 1: Relations, about what hydrogen is and why it might be
Speaker 1: the solution for the energy sector.
Speaker 2: In today's world, there is some significant hydrogen production mainly
Speaker 2: at refineries, oil and petrochemical plants. In the refinery segment,
Speaker 2: the hydrogen is produced from natural gas or coal and
Speaker 2: is being incorporated into fuels, so as to clean them
Speaker 2: up. In the petrochemical sector, the hydrogen is used to
Speaker 2: produce fertilizers such as ammonia, which are then used to
Speaker 2: grow crops all across the world. So we are facing
Speaker 2: here a double issue. One is to decarbonize the current
Speaker 2: users for hydrogen and the current supply of hydrogen, and that
Speaker 2: is already quite a significant challenge. And then we are
Speaker 2: talking about ramping up the use and production of clean
Speaker 2: hydrogen as a energy vector. That is something that is
Speaker 2: produced from other fuels, notably natural gas combined with carbon
Speaker 2: capture and storage or low- carbon electricity. And then to
Speaker 2: deploy this hydrogen into new users such as in the energy sector
Speaker 2: or in the industry sector in order to complement electrification
Speaker 2: and to really enable the deep decarbonization of our energy
Speaker 2: systems on the one hand and, of course, the industries on the other hand.
Speaker 1: Brilliant. You have hit the nail on the head there
Speaker 1: because the thing that we really want to focus on
Speaker 1: is green hydrogen. So what exactly is green hydrogen?
Speaker 2: Well, when we talk about green hydrogen, we talk about
Speaker 2: hydrogen that is produced from basically electricity coming from renewable
Speaker 2: sources that is wind, solar, but it can also be
Speaker 2: from hydro and potentially it can also be from nuclear.
Speaker 2: But in that case, it won't be called green. Green
Speaker 2: really focuses on the wind and solar electricity. So this
Speaker 2: electricity is passed through an electrolyzer where it breaks water
Speaker 2: molecules and as a result, you have basically hydrogen, which
Speaker 2: can be called green hydrogen.
Speaker 1: Interesting, interesting. I suppose, if we target down on the
Speaker 1: use of hydrogen as a solution when it comes to,
Speaker 1: I suppose, the energy sector, why is hydrogen better than
Speaker 1: what we've got at the moment?
Speaker 2: When considering the future of clean or say, green hydrogen in
Speaker 2: our energy or industrial systems, I think the key issue
Speaker 2: is to really understand that this is a critical complement to
Speaker 2: electrification and that it is not a magic solution. The
Speaker 2: priority is and will always be electrification. There is a
Speaker 2: huge range of progress we have to achieve in this
Speaker 2: field. So using clean electricity, low- carbon electricity to power
Speaker 2: industries, to power mobility, to power residential heat. But then
Speaker 2: comes hydrogen, and hydrogen goes there and is meant to
Speaker 2: go there where low- carbon electricity cannot deliver all its
Speaker 2: potential in what we call so- called hard- to- abate
Speaker 2: sectors. So electricity can deliver a lot, but it cannot
Speaker 2: do everything. This is exactly then when hydrogen should come in.
Speaker 1: But if we look at the world as it is
Speaker 1: now, where is hydrogen being utilized right now?
Speaker 2: In today's world, hydrogen production takes place basically everywhere where
Speaker 2: there are large refineries or large petrochemical production, and also
Speaker 2: needs for where there is large fertilizer demand. So basically,
Speaker 2: we're talking about the Middle East, China, Northern America, and
Speaker 2: Europe mainly.
Speaker 1: Hydrogen itself is not easy to store, is it?
Speaker 2: No, it's challenging to store hydrogen. You can store it
Speaker 2: in various forms. You can transport it in various forms.
Speaker 2: It can be gaseous. It can be liquid, can be
Speaker 2: compressed. But the key thing that... It comes all with
Speaker 2: costs and constraints. If you have to compress the hydrogen
Speaker 2: at say 70 bars, it requires a lot of electricity.
Speaker 2: So there's a lot of challenges that are related to
Speaker 2: that. Technically, one can do several things of course now.
Speaker 2: But then the question is really the economics and the
Speaker 2: end usages, and what is exactly the purpose of the
Speaker 2: hydrogen that is going to be produced, and whether the production location is close to
Speaker 2: the end consumption or whether one needs to plant for
Speaker 2: larger transportation leg. But in principle, one can store it
Speaker 2: also in the depleted salted caverns.
Speaker 1: I think it'll be planet changing. Not to be dramatic,
Speaker 1: but I think it's got such huge potential. But my
Speaker 1: question to you is why aren't we seeing hydrogen everywhere
Speaker 1: right now, if it's so good?
Speaker 2: We don't see a lot of clean hydrogen production currently.
Speaker 2: Actually, there is only very, very, very tiny production of
Speaker 2: green or clean hydrogen because it requires a lot of
Speaker 2: electricity. It requires large scale electrolyzers, and it requires demand.
Speaker 2: That hydrogen is of course much more expensive than the
Speaker 2: hydrogen that is typically produced from coal or from natural
Speaker 2: gas. Of course, one could argue that gas- based hydrogen
Speaker 2: is becoming more expensive, hence the green hydrogen is more
Speaker 2: competitive. But on the hand, the electricity prices have gone
Speaker 2: up. So for an electrolyzer to be economically viable, well,
Speaker 2: one would need to build massive large scale gigawatt capacities
Speaker 2: of electrolyzers to really the synergies, to get the production in
Speaker 2: series in various factories, to bring costs down. One would
Speaker 2: need the permitting for these facilities to be much easier
Speaker 2: in order to reduce costs. Of course, one would need
Speaker 2: many running hours of these electrolyzers that is not just
Speaker 2: two or three hours per day when there is sun,
Speaker 2: wind, but actually many, many hours up to 24 to
Speaker 2: make sure that the quite important CapEx is then amortized
Speaker 2: on a high hourly utilization rate. Lastly, of course, what it needs
Speaker 2: is demand and the demand will come when the production
Speaker 2: cost and the utilization costs go down. In order to
Speaker 2: have that demand to build up, well, there will be
Speaker 2: measures of public support. For example, government's taking over the
Speaker 2: difference in cost between the current gray hydrogen, which is fossil-
Speaker 2: based and the clean green hydrogen of tomorrow and saying, "
Speaker 2: Okay, there is a gap, and I will cover that
Speaker 2: gap for a given time in order to help the
Speaker 2: ramp up of that critical industry because it matters for
Speaker 2: the economization because it matters for my industry policy, and
Speaker 2: I want to make sure it happens in my country."
Speaker 1: So when it comes to one way of making hydrogen,
Speaker 1: you have to utilize electricity to make that hydrogen, but
Speaker 1: then the use of that hydrogen in essence replaces electricity
Speaker 1: in some of the ways it's being used at the
Speaker 1: moment. So my question to you is what are the
Speaker 1: benefits of having that middle step of using hydrogen?
Speaker 2: Well, hydrogen production will come with many advantages. It will
Speaker 2: be an opportunity to use very low- cost abundant electricity
Speaker 2: when there is a lot of wind production, when there
Speaker 2: is a lot of solar production and actually not enough
Speaker 2: demand to absorb all that. It will be extremely beneficial
Speaker 2: to then put on the electrolyzers, make them work and
Speaker 2: absorb all that relatively cheap and abundant electricity when it's
Speaker 2: available. The second aspect is certainly that the electricity cannot
Speaker 2: produce all the very high- temperature heat that one needs.
Speaker 2: It can do quite a lot, but not everything and
Speaker 2: here, will be very useful to have the hydrogen in
Speaker 2: order to produce that heat.
Speaker 1: There is no doubt that hydrogen is set to play
Speaker 1: an important part in reaching the global net- zero target
Speaker 1: by 2050. However, as Mark touched on, there are challenges
Speaker 1: that the industry faces. Mainstream adoption and a sustainable hydrogen
Speaker 1: market is just not viable until the cost of production
Speaker 1: comes down. Until then, the world just will not be
Speaker 1: able to afford this potentially game- changing low- carbon solution.
Speaker 1: But can ABB's technologies help with that? Well, I spoke
Speaker 1: to Bruno Roche, global head of energy transition at ABB
Speaker 1: Energy Industries about these challenges and what the solution may be.
Speaker 3: I will start with safety. I think we should never
Speaker 3: underestimate the importance of safety, especially when we have this
Speaker 3: hydrogen with high pressure. The second I will mention is the demand.
Speaker 3: What I mean by that, you need to have a
Speaker 3: demand to justify a supply and a supply that can justify
Speaker 3: the demand. But the obvious challenge, which is probably the
Speaker 3: most important for us in the industry and the operator
Speaker 3: is the cost, because that's what will really allow a full
Speaker 3: deployment of hydrogen. The good news is that we have
Speaker 3: the answer. We have the answer. Technically, we are making very
Speaker 3: positive impact on the cost, and all the stakeholders are
Speaker 3: working hard to bring down the cost for building this hydrogen
Speaker 3: production facility and also operating hydrogen facilities. My message to
Speaker 3: you today is that you could imagine, and we have
Speaker 3: done that for traditional market, we are focusing and working
Speaker 3: to reduce the capital expenditure, but for hydrogen it includes
Speaker 3: also a big part of the operational expenditure. Just to
Speaker 3: put this into perspective, when you produce 1 kilogram of
Speaker 3: hydrogen today when you use electrolysis, so electricity to split
Speaker 3: the water molecule in hydrogen and oxygen, more than 70% of
Speaker 3: the cost comes from the electricity, and we know how volatile
Speaker 3: the electricity is. So the first challenge we are working
Speaker 3: on is to make sure that the cost will be
Speaker 3: brought down and this OpEx, as we say, is a
Speaker 3: focus number one to make the total cost of ownership
Speaker 3: of hydrogen to the levels that will allow a full deployment.
Speaker 1: When it comes to hydrogen, what is its role in
Speaker 1: the global energy transition?
Speaker 3: That's a very wide question Fran, and I will answer on
Speaker 3: what I focus. I don't say I have the solution,
Speaker 3: but I will tell you the four main pillar I'm
Speaker 3: focusing on. The first one is about carbon capture. So
Speaker 3: we really want to decarbonize. The second is hydrogen. The two
Speaker 3: together can form a third that is alternative fuels. So
Speaker 3: I collect the carbon, I use green hydrogen, I produce
Speaker 3: new fuels. The fourth that I'm working on is about
Speaker 3: this recycling economy. That forms four pillar that I don't
Speaker 3: say are all... because energy transition it's super, super large.
Speaker 3: But these four ones are really embracing most of what
Speaker 3: we have to change in the future. Guess what? Hydrogen
Speaker 3: is a very important start and trigger for everything else
Speaker 3: to happen. So in my strategy, I put it first
Speaker 3: because we can only engage at the right costs with
Speaker 3: the right safety. That will make all a difference for
Speaker 3: the whole value chain round of energy transition to become a reality.
Speaker 1: Understood. So there are solutions on the way, but what
Speaker 1: are ABB doing specifically to help with these solutions?
Speaker 3: We have been focusing on reducing the cost to put a
Speaker 3: plant, a production plan up and running. So this is
Speaker 3: this capital expenditure costs. But what we are doing differently
Speaker 3: in ABB, it's thanks to the experience we have of
Speaker 3: spending time on the operation. So when the line operates...
Speaker 3: So this is down the line, this is two years,
Speaker 3: three years down the line before a project start. We
Speaker 3: are simulating the operations in order to optimize the cost, this 70%
Speaker 3: or more than this that I was referring to. So
Speaker 3: this is what we have done. We call it OPTIMAX,
Speaker 3: so optimization and maximization of production. Thanks to this we
Speaker 3: have been able to reduce or demonstrate we can reduce
Speaker 3: up to 14% in some cases of the total cost
Speaker 3: of hydrogen. So this is the main focus that we
Speaker 3: have been doing on top of, let's say, our traditional
Speaker 3: focuses that are known in the industry.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I suppose it's one thing looking at the optimization
Speaker 1: of the hydrogen production, but I suppose another area could
Speaker 1: be looking at the integration of more renewables. But how
Speaker 1: do you maintain that reliable power supply?
Speaker 3: That's another really good question because we speak about this,
Speaker 3: what the European Commission will call low- carbon hydrogen or
Speaker 3: more commonly, we call it green hydrogen. But this is
Speaker 3: coming from a process using electrons. If these electrons are
Speaker 3: green or low- carbon, this makes sense to make a
Speaker 3: green hydrogen, low- carbon hydrogen. But it's exactly what you
Speaker 3: said. This comes from the renewables. So that will be
Speaker 3: solar, that will be wind mostly that are in full
Speaker 3: deployment. But if you think about it, these are intermittent
Speaker 3: energy. Your point about making this reliable come with two
Speaker 3: point. The first thing, when we connect to the grid...
Speaker 3: And this is what you will see mostly in Europe.
Speaker 3: On top of connecting to the renewables, we also connect to
Speaker 3: the grid. When you do that in quite significant size
Speaker 3: project, so 10, 20 megawatt, 100 megawatt and more, the pollution,
Speaker 3: if I can say, that you could put back to
Speaker 3: the grid is critical for its stability. So we have all what
Speaker 3: it takes to prepare this to do the engineering studies, and
Speaker 3: this is quite important technical consideration, but we can make
Speaker 3: it. But now, I will turn the technical challenge into
Speaker 3: more commercial incentive. I explained, let's pretend that we are
Speaker 3: in another part of the world where we have wind,
Speaker 3: when we have solar at will. So we could say, "
Speaker 3: Yeah, that will be independent. We fully rely on renewable."
Speaker 3: And we can set the project to do that. But
Speaker 3: this comes with such sizes because after, there will be
Speaker 3: the transport or we speak projects of gigawatt scale. Gigawatt
Speaker 3: scale, we are already at the range of a nuclear
Speaker 3: plant, to give a perspective. Then governments whose task is
Speaker 3: to develop this new energy is also looking how to
Speaker 3: maintain, how to sustain, how to ensure that the grid
Speaker 3: will be stable. Guess what happen, in such size of
Speaker 3: project, we can turn the challenge to link to the
Speaker 3: grid and make sure that we don't pollute it or
Speaker 3: disrupt it into loading and offloading it at will. In
Speaker 3: other words, we really turn this hydrogen large project as
Speaker 3: enabler to balance the grid, and this is looked at
Speaker 3: government more and more as another and a new way
Speaker 3: of benefiting from this hydrogen economy that is thriving.
Speaker 1: There seems to be so many avenues it can go down.
Speaker 1: So how far can we expect to scale up hydrogen
Speaker 1: realistically? Let's say, I don't know, in the next years,
Speaker 1: decades, where will we see it?
Speaker 3: Excellent question again. The direct answer will be the sky
Speaker 3: is the limit. I'm not kidding. This is really what happens.
Speaker 3: I will put that into numbers for you to understand
Speaker 3: what I mean about the pace of the scale- up,
Speaker 3: which is insane. Four years back, we were speaking about
Speaker 3: kilowatt scale. Three years back, first megawatt scale. Two years
Speaker 3: back, tens of megawatt. Last year, 100 of megawatt, and
Speaker 3: now we are seating at several gigawatt. This is an
Speaker 3: exponential growth, and how much it can scale up... Technically,
Speaker 3: we have what it is, and this is a good news also
Speaker 3: that we have an appetite from the economy to look
Speaker 3: for this low- carbon hydrogen. If I project myself, I
Speaker 3: will take hydrogen (inaudible) numbers. For example, they consider
Speaker 3: or they have shown that 18% of the global energy demand
Speaker 3: is expected to come from hydrogen by 2050. 18% of the
Speaker 3: global energy demand. This is huge numbers that we are
Speaker 3: speaking about here, and we are really realistically putting this
Speaker 3: line in operation step by step. But the step that
Speaker 3: we are each time, very important. We also have to
Speaker 3: do this in a safe and realistic manner. To your
Speaker 3: question, the sky is a limit. We can go super
Speaker 3: high. The time to do it is required to do
Speaker 3: the things properly and don't think that we stay still,
Speaker 3: and we do that taking our time. We also take
Speaker 3: risks. We are investing with the digital twin, we are
Speaker 3: partnering with OEM players. I'll take the example of hydrogen
Speaker 3: optimize. It's in ABB, one of the company with the
Speaker 3: disrupting technologies that may come in some years from now,
Speaker 3: but where we have invested for them to develop 100
Speaker 3: of megawatt per modules. So when we turn to gigawatt
Speaker 3: scale project, if you start with few megawatt modules, you
Speaker 3: need hundreds or thousands of them. This start not to
Speaker 3: be realistic. So we have to think about the next
Speaker 3: generation of this project, and we try from our side
Speaker 3: to really accelerate the innovation in order to make it happen.
Speaker 1: To deliver competitive low- carbon hydrogen, the performance of the electrolysis process,
Speaker 1: so that's the one that uses electricity to split water
Speaker 1: into hydrogen and oxygen, needs to be optimized so it
Speaker 1: can run the plant at the lowest possible price. OPTIMAX
Speaker 1: software system supports doing just this by serving every aspect
Speaker 1: of the hydrogen plant lifecycle from simulation, design, and engineering
Speaker 1: phases to real- time visibility and monitoring of energy consumption
Speaker 1: when it's actually in operation. ABB works with industry pioneers
Speaker 1: to optimize the efficiency of these really energy intensive electrolyzers
Speaker 1: to help reduce hydrogen production costs. One of these pioneers
Speaker 1: is EDF subsidiary group Hynamics and their CEO, Christelle Rouille,
Speaker 1: told me about the work Hynamics do with ABB.
Speaker 4: To be part of the decarbonization of the economy and to
Speaker 4: be part of building a great and cleaner planet for
Speaker 4: our children is really the most exciting thing that I
Speaker 4: have in my life.
Speaker 1: I've heard that Hynamics have collaborated with ABB. Could you
Speaker 1: explain a little bit about what this collaboration involved?
Speaker 4: Yeah, sure. We are really very happy for the signature
Speaker 4: with ABB and about this agreement to integrate the ABB ability OPTIMAX
Speaker 4: energy management system to reduce H₂ production costs. The system
Speaker 4: is, in fact, deployed at Hynamics production assets in Auxerre, which
Speaker 4: called Oxygen, which is a low- carbon H₂ production and
Speaker 4: distribution assets where we will supply hydrogen to different vehicles
Speaker 4: as buses. Maybe to be more consistent and detailed on
Speaker 4: that topic, I would say that the system provides data which can help
Speaker 4: determine optimal energy consumption levels required to produce hydrogen and
Speaker 4: minimize waste.
Speaker 1: Gotcha. When it comes to OPTIMAX, how does it do
Speaker 1: this? How does it reduce the cost of hydrogen production?
Speaker 1: Is it a case of looking at getting maximum efficiency
Speaker 1: of each part of the process, or could you break
Speaker 1: that down for me a bit?
Speaker 4: Yes. OPTIMAX is the tool that will have different data in order to
Speaker 4: be able to optimize the signal coming from the electricity
Speaker 4: sourcing and the signal of the consumption from the customers. This energy
Speaker 4: management system in a whole will be able to adapt
Speaker 4: the compartment, I would say, or the behavior of the
Speaker 4: electrolyzer because of these different data analysis.
Speaker 1: That's brilliant. So it basically looks at what the demand
Speaker 1: is doing and then make sure that the supply that
Speaker 1: it's drawing from the electricity to then produce the hydrogen
Speaker 1: matches the demand that is needed for the hydrogen that
Speaker 1: needs to be made?
Speaker 4: Yeah, sure. It is really the purpose and the brilliant
Speaker 4: idea of this tool.
Speaker 1: So you are not producing any in excess, but you
Speaker 1: are producing it when it's needed?
Speaker 4: And we're producing at the best cost in order, at
Speaker 4: least, to be able to be very competitive for this hydrogen
Speaker 4: price to our customers because the competition with the fossil
Speaker 4: hydrogen is still strong. It's very important for us to
Speaker 4: be able to replace that fossil hydrogen because of this
Speaker 4: optimization between electricity and consumption.
Speaker 1: Could you explain a little bit about what makes green
Speaker 1: hydrogen better than the other forms of energy or fuel?
Speaker 4: Yeah, sure. low- carbon and green hydrogen is the solution
Speaker 4: we want to put in place because producing hydrogen with or
Speaker 4: by electrolysis is a way to reduce the CO₂ emission and
Speaker 4: at least to decarbonate the whole economy. It is a
Speaker 4: good solution and of course better than the existing one,
Speaker 4: which is a fossil hydrogen right now, which is 95%
Speaker 4: of the hydrogen worldwide.
Speaker 1: Now, producing hydrogen by electrolysis, I don't think is a
Speaker 1: cheap process even at the moment when it's using these
Speaker 1: carbon based fuels. So changing that process of where you
Speaker 1: can produce hydrogen but you do it by using renewables,
Speaker 1: there's going to be cost involved, isn't there? Cost is
Speaker 1: going to be a huge part of this process. So
Speaker 1: what is being done in your expertise to keep the
Speaker 1: cost as low as it can be?
Speaker 4: It is challenging to produce hydrogen with that kind of
Speaker 4: technology electrolysis where, as you mentioned, we need renewable and/
Speaker 4: or low- carbon electricity. Right now, the cost of electricity
Speaker 4: is very important. In the cost of hydrogen, it's almost
Speaker 4: 50 to 70% at the end. So it's very important
Speaker 4: to be able to optimize the electricity sourcing compared to
Speaker 4: the H₂ conception that our customers need for supplying their
Speaker 4: process or the different vehicles. That's also why we had this
Speaker 4: agreement with ABB because this OPTIMAX solution is really a
Speaker 4: very good solution in order for us to reduce the
Speaker 4: cost of hydrogen production when we are facing this electricity
Speaker 4: prices and for instance, the crisis that we are facing
Speaker 4: now in Europe.
Speaker 1: So it's on the way? Would you care to give
Speaker 1: a yes? So in the next decade will we see the rise
Speaker 1: of clean hydrogen, do you think?
Speaker 4: It's not science fiction anymore. It's real. It's now. We
Speaker 4: developed and commissioned that kind of project. So that means
Speaker 4: that we are in the situation to provide, to supply
Speaker 4: this new energy vector to our customers. So no, it's
Speaker 4: really the future, but it's not the science fiction or
Speaker 4: an idea coming from R& D sector. No, no. It's
Speaker 4: really real, and we are very happy to take part
Speaker 4: of that business and to take part of this new
Speaker 4: generation of producing energy sector.
Speaker 1: The more efficient we can make that decarbonization of the
Speaker 1: hydrogen production process, it's only going to get taken up
Speaker 1: more and more, and so it's just going to basically
Speaker 1: fuel its own future?
Speaker 4: Yes. The two main challenges in order to have a
Speaker 4: democratic cool hydrogen or clean hydrogen is to reduce the
Speaker 4: cost of electrolyzers. That's possible with the Gigafactories that all the
Speaker 4: different electrolyzers manufacturers are building worldwide. So it's one way
Speaker 4: to be competitive and to get that hydrogen real. The
Speaker 4: other thing is to have the most adequate regulation context,
Speaker 4: I will say. For that, we will be very happy to
Speaker 4: have an acceleration coming from the European Union, but also
Speaker 4: from the different states in Europe. But the political situation
Speaker 4: is that there are many, many billions of euros put
Speaker 4: on the table in order to subsidize, I would say,
Speaker 4: those project and to be able to produce low- carbon
Speaker 4: and renewable hydrogen.
Speaker 1: What I've loved about this episode is the way that
Speaker 1: it's opened my eyes up to how hydrogen is just going
Speaker 1: to be one of the options in this pick and
Speaker 1: mix suite that we need to utilize in the most
Speaker 1: optimal way in order to have this net- zero carbon
Speaker 1: future. That is it for this episode and also for
Speaker 1: this series of the Process Automation Podcast. A huge thank
Speaker 1: you to my guests on this episode, Bruno Roche, Marc-
Speaker 1: Antoine Eyl- Mazzega and Christelle Rouille for their brilliant insight
Speaker 1: and expertise. Thank you so much. I'm Fran Scott, and
Speaker 1: the Process Automation Podcast is a Fresh Air production for
Speaker 1: ABB. Follow or subscribe now for free wherever you get
Speaker 1: your podcasts, so you never miss an episode.