Iona Bain: We all know striking the balance between work and life
Iona Bain: is hard. With hybrid working, it can be tricky to
Iona Bain: create boundaries where your professional time ends and your personal
Iona Bain: time begins. The way we're working is undoubtedly changing and
Iona Bain: with flexible working and the four- day week on the
Iona Bain: rise, there are lots of ways we can increase our
Iona Bain: productivity while avoiding burnout. I'm Iona Bain and welcome to
Iona Bain: A Little Bit Richer, brought to you by Legal and
Iona Bain: General. Here to chat with me today about getting the
Iona Bain: right work- life balance is Joe Ryle from the Four
Iona Bain: Day Week Foundation, the UK's National Independent Campaigning Organization that
Iona Bain: advocates for a reduction in the maximum working week from
Iona Bain: 48 to 32 hours by 2030, and for people to
Iona Bain: request a four- day working week with no loss of
Iona Bain: pay. That's quite an ask. So to give us a
Iona Bain: bit more information about how that might work, welcome, Joe.
Iona Bain: So we hear this term work- life balance a lot.
Iona Bain: What does it mean and how do you think the definition
Iona Bain: has evolved over time?
Joe Ryle: We used to work six- day working week a hundred
Joe Ryle: years ago.
Iona Bain: So working on a Saturday?
Joe Ryle: It took the best part of two decades. They were
Joe Ryle: like progressive business leaders like Ford Motor Company in America,
Joe Ryle: also trade unions pushing for this and they won the
Joe Ryle: weekend. My personal take on it as someone who was
Joe Ryle: working five days a week, six days a week for
Joe Ryle: a number of years, it didn't feel like a good balance.
Iona Bain: Why do you think this whole topic of work- life
Iona Bain: balance has come to the fore in recent times? When
Iona Bain: I was younger, when I was starting out in my
Iona Bain: career, I did hear about a work- life balance, but
Iona Bain: it felt like quite a distant concept. It didn't feel
Iona Bain: like something that was really available to me because the
Iona Bain: idea was you work hard, you get on and you
Iona Bain: get your head down. So why do you think work- life
Iona Bain: balance has become a more, if you like, popular concept?
Joe Ryle: So I think the Covid pandemic has been a catalyst for
Joe Ryle: totally rethinking the way that we work. I think that's
Joe Ryle: because we do have an unhealthy culture, which is a
Joe Ryle: culture of being addicted to really long working hours. The
Joe Ryle: data does speak for itself. We work some of the
Joe Ryle: longest full- time working hours across Europe, but at the
Joe Ryle: same time we have one of the least productive economies.
Joe Ryle: So what that suggests is that all these long working
Joe Ryle: hours we're not producing good results for the economy and
Joe Ryle: also not producing good results for workers.
Iona Bain: I've definitely been coming across more burnout in my career
Iona Bain: and in my life. Why do you think we are seeing more
Iona Bain: cases of burnout?
Joe Ryle: On a serious point, it is worrying that we do
Joe Ryle: have millions of workers that are getting burnt out on
Joe Ryle: a more regular basis. We have three million workers who
Joe Ryle: are out of work long- term sick. I think there
Joe Ryle: is a relationship there with this long working hours culture
Joe Ryle: we have. It's not good for our wellbeing. I also
Joe Ryle: think we've had this explosion of technology, smartphones, which has
Joe Ryle: created this always on culture where you never switch off.
Joe Ryle: You take your work to bed with you, you take
Joe Ryle: it back home. If you're on your phone, you can
Joe Ryle: respond at any point.
Iona Bain: Yeah, so I mean, how would we define burnout?
Joe Ryle: I think the official definition of burnout is stress when you're
Joe Ryle: just physically, emotionally exhausted. When we ran the biggest pilot
Joe Ryle: of a four- day working week in the world so
Joe Ryle: far, so it was 2022, we had 61 companies that
Joe Ryle: took part. So it was about 3000 employees. There was a
Joe Ryle: 71% overall reduction in burnout, so people feeling a lot
Joe Ryle: less stressed. I think there was a recent survey which
Joe Ryle: came out which was across Europe, I think 20 to 30,
Joe Ryle: 000 workers were asked about their motivations for what they're
Joe Ryle: looking for from their job. For the first time work-
Joe Ryle: life balance is higher than better pay. So actually for
Joe Ryle: the first time workers across Europe are, when they're going
Joe Ryle: into the workplace, they're looking for a work- life balance.
Joe Ryle: Now that's a significant shift and I do think that's
Joe Ryle: largely been driven by conversations that have happened since the
Joe Ryle: pandemic that have forced us to change. It has been
Joe Ryle: a hundred years of nine to five, five- day working
Joe Ryle: week, and the world of work has obviously transformed since
Joe Ryle: then. It's very different from that more agricultural or industrial era.
Iona Bain: It's fascinating that people would put that work- life balance
Iona Bain: ahead of income, which you would imagine would solve a
Iona Bain: lot of people's problems, especially in the cost of living
Iona Bain: crisis in this general economic environment. The feeling is that
Iona Bain: more money would be really, really helpful and yet work-
Iona Bain: life balance comes ahead.
Joe Ryle: Yeah. Well, I mean if you've got loads of money
Joe Ryle: but no time, then you can't really enjoy your life,
Joe Ryle: can you?
Iona Bain: I think a really big question that's on people's minds
Iona Bain: at the moment. Are we going to see at some
Iona Bain: point a return to the full- time, five day a week,
Iona Bain: in the office working model?
Joe Ryle: I don't think we're going back. If you look at
Joe Ryle: the polling and survey data on this, no one wants
Joe Ryle: to go back to five days a week in the
Joe Ryle: office. I do think we are moving forward to a
Joe Ryle: culture of work where workers have a bit more freedom,
Joe Ryle: a bit more autonomy from work.
Iona Bain: When I think back to the early part of my
Iona Bain: career, if I asked to work from home one day a
Iona Bain: week, it was like I was asking to be paid
Iona Bain: a million pounds a year. It just seemed absolutely impossible.
Iona Bain: Now it does feel like that has become more normalized.
Iona Bain: I guess the concern is that there are those big
Iona Bain: employers that can basically say, well, if you want a
Iona Bain: job with us, you've got to come in five days
Iona Bain: a week and that's all there is to it.
Joe Ryle: Perhaps for now, they can still get away with that
Joe Ryle: in some cases, but to normalize that workers can request
Joe Ryle: a better balance in their lives where they've got more
Joe Ryle: time for childcare, friends, hobbies, whatever it is in their
Joe Ryle: life. We are in a place where we've had decades
Joe Ryle: and decades of a culture that's been addicted to work
Joe Ryle: and that's been put front and center. We're at the
Joe Ryle: very beginning of that shift. If you look at also some
Joe Ryle: of the survey data, it is the young generation coming
Joe Ryle: through now who are saying, I don't want work to
Joe Ryle: dominate my life in the same way that maybe it
Joe Ryle: has done for their grandparents' generation, their parents' generation. So
Joe Ryle: there is that cultural shift taking place, but it will
Joe Ryle: take time. These things don't change overnight.
Iona Bain: That's a very interesting shift because as I said, in
Iona Bain: the early part of my career, it was all about
Iona Bain: hard work and there will be people who will say
Iona Bain: that work is a joy. If you can find a
Iona Bain: job that you really love you'll want to go in
Iona Bain: and do it five days a week and you'll want
Iona Bain: to work as hard as you possibly can, what would
Iona Bain: you say to that?
Joe Ryle: You can actually work harder in four days rather than
Joe Ryle: five. Spreading the working week over 40 hours when workers
Joe Ryle: are better rested, when they have a better work- life
Joe Ryle: balance, you come back in a Monday morning refreshed, more
Joe Ryle: motivated and you can perform better. A rested worker is a
Joe Ryle: better worker.
Iona Bain: That makes a lot of sense. I guess there's always
Iona Bain: that concern that if you're trying to squeeze five days
Iona Bain: into four, then actually that puts a lot of pressure
Iona Bain: on those employees then to fit a pint into a
Iona Bain: quart bottle, if you see what I mean, and to
Iona Bain: try to fit more into less time. Could that cause
Iona Bain: more stress in the long term?
Joe Ryle: I think it's something we need to be wary of and
Joe Ryle: they're not going to pretend everything about a four- day
Joe Ryle: working week is perfect. There may be some downsides there
Joe Ryle: if workers need to figure out the reframing of the
Joe Ryle: work that they're doing.
Iona Bain: So what are some of the downsides of a four-
Iona Bain: day working week and how could those be managed?
Joe Ryle: Definitely some of the downsides we hear about are there
Joe Ryle: not being enough time for staff being together, that social
Joe Ryle: time. We have seen that managed by companies being really
Joe Ryle: strict about putting something in the diary like once every
Joe Ryle: month to make sure that does happen. There's certainly industries
Joe Ryle: and sectors where it is going to be more complex
Joe Ryle: to implement. It is also about working differently. We often
Joe Ryle: inherit ways of working that go back decades and actually
Joe Ryle: we've found the newer startup organization are much more agile
Joe Ryle: and able to adjust to something like a four- day
Joe Ryle: week much easier.
Iona Bain: Is there a particular group of people or are there
Iona Bain: particular groups of people for whom this could be quite
Iona Bain: a good model?
Joe Ryle: We think in the long term, the vast majority of the economy
Joe Ryle: could shift to a four- day working week, but we've
Joe Ryle: been honest about the fact it is going to be
Joe Ryle: more difficult in certain sectors, in certain areas of the
Joe Ryle: economy. It will be more complex to implement and we
Joe Ryle: might have to be more creative about how we implement
Joe Ryle: it. I mean, I do also want to stress that
Joe Ryle: working a four- day week isn't just about doing everything that
Joe Ryle: you should do in a five- day week, but packing
Joe Ryle: it into four days. It is that opportunity to work
Joe Ryle: differently. To really look at the work that everyone's doing, bring
Joe Ryle: the team together, to work more strategically and work more
Joe Ryle: effectively and to get the rewards of people being better
Joe Ryle: rested and then being more effective.
Iona Bain: So could we see a rise in things like job
Iona Bain: sharing for instance? Could that be a potential solution to
Iona Bain: some of those challenges that you might face with a four-
Iona Bain: day week?
Joe Ryle: I think we'll see more and more of that. I
Joe Ryle: think ultimately this wider conversation about flexible working, four- day
Joe Ryle: working week, what it's all about is that workers want
Joe Ryle: more freedom and more autonomy from work, and that will probably
Joe Ryle: happen in different ways. I think there will be job sharing, there'll
Joe Ryle: be more part- time work. We've also got the elephant
Joe Ryle: in the room as well as artificial intelligence coming in, which
Joe Ryle: is doing a lot of the tasks that we do
Joe Ryle: in our day- to- day jobs. So our argument on
Joe Ryle: that was, well, if we want workers and people to
Joe Ryle: benefit from AI, then we should all be having a
Joe Ryle: shorter working week because it's doing some of the tasks
Joe Ryle: that we used to be able to do.
Iona Bain: So if you are keen to work fewer hours, what
Iona Bain: are the options available for you? How can you bring
Iona Bain: that idea of working more flexibly or working less with
Iona Bain: your employer? I can imagine it might be quite a tricky
Iona Bain: conversation to have.
Joe Ryle: Yeah, the government have strengthened the flexible working rights in
Joe Ryle: the last couple of years, so anyone as an employee
Joe Ryle: can now request more flexible way of working. Now that's not a
Joe Ryle: four day, 32- hour working week as we advocate for,
Joe Ryle: but there's different versions of flexible working weeks that you
Joe Ryle: can offer to get a week that is more balanced.
Iona Bain: So let's chat through that because it may be that
Iona Bain: a four- day week would not be on the table
Iona Bain: for certain employees. A nurse, for instance. Could there be other
Iona Bain: things that they could ask for instead that would help
Iona Bain: them achieve that balance and those boundaries in their life?
Joe Ryle: You can ask for job sharing, part- time work, compressed
Joe Ryle: hours where you're doing the same amount of hours, but
Joe Ryle: over a four- day week, you can also ask for a nine-
Joe Ryle: day fortnight. Actually increasingly, we're seeing hundreds of companies move
Joe Ryle: to nine day fortnight rather than a four- day week,
Joe Ryle: which is halfway there. So they'll reduce the working hours,
Joe Ryle: but one week they're doing five days and the next
Joe Ryle: week they're doing four.
Iona Bain: That's interesting. I haven't come across the nine- day fortnight
Iona Bain: as much, but maybe that's a bit more of a
Iona Bain: halfway house.
Joe Ryle: Yes.
Iona Bain: Another question I have is that what are people spending
Iona Bain: that day off doing? I'm quite curious because I've read
Iona Bain: about quite recently that there's been a big rise in
Iona Bain: the number of people going to the golf club or
Iona Bain: going to the hairdressers or doing things that they would
Iona Bain: otherwise do on the weekend midweek. So a lot of
Iona Bain: these businesses within the economy are seeing a bit of
Iona Bain: a midweek boom. So I think that's quite interesting and
Iona Bain: it points to the fact that people maybe are making
Iona Bain: the most of that day off, but what are you
Iona Bain: seeing in terms of how people are using that day?
Joe Ryle: I think it's a real mix. Some of the anecdotal feedback we
Joe Ryle: get back is people just doing their life admin, catching
Joe Ryle: up on the things as you say, they haven't had
Joe Ryle: time to do in the week. In Valencia, the government
Joe Ryle: trialed a four- day week every Friday for a month.
Joe Ryle: I think it was in April. It was interesting that
Joe Ryle: that study found that actually the hospitality service sector really
Joe Ryle: boomed on that Friday. So I do think there's real,
Joe Ryle: real benefits of this for hospitality industry.
Iona Bain: Mind you, I imagine in Valencia just sitting outside with
Iona Bain: a coffee or a beer, it's going to be a
Iona Bain: bit more attractive than here in the UK, right?
Joe Ryle: These days it's hot in July and August.
Iona Bain: Well, true. Yeah, you can make the most of it,
Iona Bain: I'm sure. So, Joe, what are the three simple things
Iona Bain: that someone can do to maintain healthy boundaries at work
Iona Bain: whatever their working model is?
Joe Ryle: So I think a big one is being really aware
Joe Ryle: of your screen time use and trying to set some
Joe Ryle: clear boundaries to when work starts and ends. The danger
Joe Ryle: of working from home is that actually those lines are
Joe Ryle: so much more blurry.
Iona Bain: Oh, absolutely.
Joe Ryle: Also having time where potentially you put your phone away
Joe Ryle: from your desk. Maybe you're not even checking your emails,
Joe Ryle: you're just really focusing on the work that you need
Joe Ryle: to get done. Two, take your annual leave. Take your
Joe Ryle: bank holidays. Workers have fought for those over generations. Take
Joe Ryle: them and enjoy that time off. Also take a lunch
Joe Ryle: break. There's too many people, including myself sometimes, who will
Joe Ryle: sit at your computer screen for an hour with a
Joe Ryle: sandwich next to you and that's not good either.
Iona Bain: No. Try to avoid al desko.
Joe Ryle: Yeah, exactly. Get to the park, have a walk.
Iona Bain: That's a great idea. Yeah. Really thought- provoking. Lots to
Iona Bain: consider. Thank you, Joe. Next time, financial psychotherapist Vicky Reynal
Iona Bain: will be here to help us work out the psychology
Iona Bain: behind our spending. Sounds very intriguing. I'd love it if
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Iona Bain: Legal and General. Thanks for listening. Until next time, see
Iona Bain: you soon.