WEBVTT - Working Less and Living More 0:00:02.160 --> 0:00:05.010 We all know striking the balance between work and life 0:00:05.160 --> 0:00:08.400 is hard. With hybrid working, it can be tricky to 0:00:08.400 --> 0:00:11.730 create boundaries where your professional time ends and your personal 0:00:11.730 --> 0:00:15.840 time begins. The way we're working is undoubtedly changing and 0:00:15.840 --> 0:00:18.060 with flexible working and the four- day week on the 0:00:18.120 --> 0:00:21.120 rise, there are lots of ways we can increase our 0:00:21.120 --> 0:00:25.350 productivity while avoiding burnout. I'm Iona Bain and welcome to 0:00:25.350 --> 0:00:28.380 A Little Bit Richer, brought to you by Legal and 0:00:28.380 --> 0:00:31.229 General. Here to chat with me today about getting the 0:00:31.230 --> 0:00:34.200 right work- life balance is Joe Ryle from the Four 0:00:34.200 --> 0:00:39.960 Day Week Foundation, the UK's National Independent Campaigning Organization that 0:00:39.960 --> 0:00:43.170 advocates for a reduction in the maximum working week from 0:00:43.170 --> 0:00:47.220 48 to 32 hours by 2030, and for people to 0:00:47.220 --> 0:00:49.860 request a four- day working week with no loss of 0:00:49.860 --> 0:00:52.290 pay. That's quite an ask. So to give us a 0:00:52.290 --> 0:00:55.830 bit more information about how that might work, welcome, Joe. 0:00:57.270 --> 0:01:00.900 So we hear this term work- life balance a lot. 0:01:01.440 --> 0:01:05.100 What does it mean and how do you think the definition 0:01:05.100 --> 0:01:06.420 has evolved over time? 0:01:06.600 --> 0:01:08.580 We used to work six- day working week a hundred 0:01:08.580 --> 0:01:09.090 years ago. 0:01:09.150 --> 0:01:10.260 So working on a Saturday? 0:01:10.470 --> 0:01:12.540 It took the best part of two decades. They were 0:01:12.540 --> 0:01:15.750 like progressive business leaders like Ford Motor Company in America, 0:01:15.750 --> 0:01:18.060 also trade unions pushing for this and they won the 0:01:18.060 --> 0:01:21.120 weekend. My personal take on it as someone who was 0:01:21.120 --> 0:01:23.369 working five days a week, six days a week for 0:01:23.370 --> 0:01:26.160 a number of years, it didn't feel like a good balance. 0:01:26.700 --> 0:01:29.160 Why do you think this whole topic of work- life 0:01:29.160 --> 0:01:32.850 balance has come to the fore in recent times? When 0:01:32.850 --> 0:01:35.069 I was younger, when I was starting out in my 0:01:35.069 --> 0:01:38.069 career, I did hear about a work- life balance, but 0:01:38.069 --> 0:01:41.430 it felt like quite a distant concept. It didn't feel 0:01:41.430 --> 0:01:44.100 like something that was really available to me because the 0:01:44.100 --> 0:01:46.949 idea was you work hard, you get on and you 0:01:46.950 --> 0:01:48.930 get your head down. So why do you think work- life 0:01:48.930 --> 0:01:51.810 balance has become a more, if you like, popular concept? 0:01:52.200 --> 0:01:55.320 So I think the Covid pandemic has been a catalyst for 0:01:55.320 --> 0:01:57.720 totally rethinking the way that we work. I think that's 0:01:57.720 --> 0:02:00.630 because we do have an unhealthy culture, which is a 0:02:00.630 --> 0:02:03.420 culture of being addicted to really long working hours. The 0:02:03.420 --> 0:02:05.880 data does speak for itself. We work some of the 0:02:05.880 --> 0:02:09.270 longest full- time working hours across Europe, but at the 0:02:09.270 --> 0:02:11.489 same time we have one of the least productive economies. 0:02:11.490 --> 0:02:15.000 So what that suggests is that all these long working 0:02:15.000 --> 0:02:17.669 hours we're not producing good results for the economy and 0:02:17.669 --> 0:02:19.290 also not producing good results for workers. 0:02:19.620 --> 0:02:23.579 I've definitely been coming across more burnout in my career 0:02:23.580 --> 0:02:26.700 and in my life. Why do you think we are seeing more 0:02:26.700 --> 0:02:27.600 cases of burnout? 0:02:27.720 --> 0:02:29.340 On a serious point, it is worrying that we do 0:02:29.340 --> 0:02:31.350 have millions of workers that are getting burnt out on 0:02:31.350 --> 0:02:34.410 a more regular basis. We have three million workers who 0:02:34.410 --> 0:02:36.360 are out of work long- term sick. I think there 0:02:36.360 --> 0:02:39.240 is a relationship there with this long working hours culture 0:02:39.240 --> 0:02:42.660 we have. It's not good for our wellbeing. I also 0:02:42.660 --> 0:02:46.680 think we've had this explosion of technology, smartphones, which has 0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:50.220 created this always on culture where you never switch off. 0:02:50.370 --> 0:02:52.169 You take your work to bed with you, you take 0:02:52.169 --> 0:02:53.550 it back home. If you're on your phone, you can 0:02:53.550 --> 0:02:54.360 respond at any point. 0:02:54.540 --> 0:02:57.570 Yeah, so I mean, how would we define burnout? 0:02:57.780 --> 0:03:00.450 I think the official definition of burnout is stress when you're 0:03:00.480 --> 0:03:04.919 just physically, emotionally exhausted. When we ran the biggest pilot 0:03:04.919 --> 0:03:06.630 of a four- day working week in the world so 0:03:06.630 --> 0:03:09.240 far, so it was 2022, we had 61 companies that 0:03:09.240 --> 0:03:12.300 took part. So it was about 3000 employees. There was a 0:03:12.300 --> 0:03:15.810 71% overall reduction in burnout, so people feeling a lot 0:03:15.810 --> 0:03:18.389 less stressed. I think there was a recent survey which 0:03:18.389 --> 0:03:20.669 came out which was across Europe, I think 20 to 30, 0:03:20.669 --> 0:03:24.270 000 workers were asked about their motivations for what they're 0:03:24.270 --> 0:03:27.480 looking for from their job. For the first time work- 0:03:27.480 --> 0:03:30.120 life balance is higher than better pay. So actually for 0:03:30.120 --> 0:03:33.090 the first time workers across Europe are, when they're going 0:03:33.090 --> 0:03:34.950 into the workplace, they're looking for a work- life balance. 0:03:34.950 --> 0:03:37.620 Now that's a significant shift and I do think that's 0:03:37.620 --> 0:03:40.350 largely been driven by conversations that have happened since the 0:03:40.350 --> 0:03:43.170 pandemic that have forced us to change. It has been 0:03:43.170 --> 0:03:45.839 a hundred years of nine to five, five- day working 0:03:45.840 --> 0:03:48.510 week, and the world of work has obviously transformed since 0:03:48.510 --> 0:03:52.200 then. It's very different from that more agricultural or industrial era. 0:03:52.530 --> 0:03:55.680 It's fascinating that people would put that work- life balance 0:03:55.680 --> 0:03:58.230 ahead of income, which you would imagine would solve a 0:03:58.230 --> 0:04:01.260 lot of people's problems, especially in the cost of living 0:04:01.260 --> 0:04:04.800 crisis in this general economic environment. The feeling is that 0:04:04.800 --> 0:04:07.500 more money would be really, really helpful and yet work- 0:04:07.500 --> 0:04:08.520 life balance comes ahead. 0:04:08.790 --> 0:04:10.620 Yeah. Well, I mean if you've got loads of money 0:04:10.620 --> 0:04:12.600 but no time, then you can't really enjoy your life, 0:04:12.600 --> 0:04:12.960 can you? 0:04:12.960 --> 0:04:16.020 I think a really big question that's on people's minds 0:04:16.020 --> 0:04:18.420 at the moment. Are we going to see at some 0:04:18.420 --> 0:04:21.870 point a return to the full- time, five day a week, 0:04:21.960 --> 0:04:23.820 in the office working model? 0:04:23.880 --> 0:04:25.440 I don't think we're going back. If you look at 0:04:25.440 --> 0:04:27.479 the polling and survey data on this, no one wants 0:04:27.480 --> 0:04:28.860 to go back to five days a week in the 0:04:28.860 --> 0:04:31.710 office. I do think we are moving forward to a 0:04:31.710 --> 0:04:34.140 culture of work where workers have a bit more freedom, 0:04:34.140 --> 0:04:35.160 a bit more autonomy from work. 0:04:35.160 --> 0:04:36.750 When I think back to the early part of my 0:04:36.750 --> 0:04:39.510 career, if I asked to work from home one day a 0:04:39.510 --> 0:04:41.909 week, it was like I was asking to be paid 0:04:41.910 --> 0:04:44.490 a million pounds a year. It just seemed absolutely impossible. 0:04:45.060 --> 0:04:48.600 Now it does feel like that has become more normalized. 0:04:48.600 --> 0:04:50.640 I guess the concern is that there are those big 0:04:50.640 --> 0:04:54.089 employers that can basically say, well, if you want a 0:04:54.089 --> 0:04:55.890 job with us, you've got to come in five days 0:04:55.890 --> 0:04:57.089 a week and that's all there is to it. 0:04:57.540 --> 0:04:59.279 Perhaps for now, they can still get away with that 0:04:59.279 --> 0:05:02.700 in some cases, but to normalize that workers can request 0:05:02.700 --> 0:05:04.620 a better balance in their lives where they've got more 0:05:04.620 --> 0:05:08.339 time for childcare, friends, hobbies, whatever it is in their 0:05:08.339 --> 0:05:11.520 life. We are in a place where we've had decades 0:05:11.520 --> 0:05:13.920 and decades of a culture that's been addicted to work 0:05:13.920 --> 0:05:16.529 and that's been put front and center. We're at the 0:05:16.529 --> 0:05:19.140 very beginning of that shift. If you look at also some 0:05:19.140 --> 0:05:21.720 of the survey data, it is the young generation coming 0:05:21.720 --> 0:05:24.150 through now who are saying, I don't want work to 0:05:24.180 --> 0:05:26.370 dominate my life in the same way that maybe it 0:05:26.370 --> 0:05:28.770 has done for their grandparents' generation, their parents' generation. So 0:05:28.770 --> 0:05:31.080 there is that cultural shift taking place, but it will 0:05:31.080 --> 0:05:33.060 take time. These things don't change overnight. 0:05:33.150 --> 0:05:36.089 That's a very interesting shift because as I said, in 0:05:36.089 --> 0:05:38.130 the early part of my career, it was all about 0:05:38.130 --> 0:05:40.950 hard work and there will be people who will say 0:05:41.220 --> 0:05:43.830 that work is a joy. If you can find a 0:05:43.830 --> 0:05:46.289 job that you really love you'll want to go in 0:05:46.350 --> 0:05:47.909 and do it five days a week and you'll want 0:05:47.910 --> 0:05:50.039 to work as hard as you possibly can, what would 0:05:50.040 --> 0:05:50.700 you say to that? 0:05:51.210 --> 0:05:53.729 You can actually work harder in four days rather than 0:05:53.730 --> 0:05:58.140 five. Spreading the working week over 40 hours when workers 0:05:58.140 --> 0:05:59.849 are better rested, when they have a better work- life 0:05:59.850 --> 0:06:02.610 balance, you come back in a Monday morning refreshed, more 0:06:02.610 --> 0:06:06.360 motivated and you can perform better. A rested worker is a 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:07.080 better worker. 0:06:07.770 --> 0:06:10.560 That makes a lot of sense. I guess there's always 0:06:10.560 --> 0:06:13.409 that concern that if you're trying to squeeze five days 0:06:13.410 --> 0:06:16.440 into four, then actually that puts a lot of pressure 0:06:16.440 --> 0:06:19.469 on those employees then to fit a pint into a 0:06:19.470 --> 0:06:21.510 quart bottle, if you see what I mean, and to 0:06:21.510 --> 0:06:24.390 try to fit more into less time. Could that cause 0:06:24.390 --> 0:06:26.040 more stress in the long term? 0:06:26.760 --> 0:06:28.920 I think it's something we need to be wary of and 0:06:29.400 --> 0:06:31.290 they're not going to pretend everything about a four- day 0:06:31.290 --> 0:06:33.960 working week is perfect. There may be some downsides there 0:06:33.960 --> 0:06:36.900 if workers need to figure out the reframing of the 0:06:36.900 --> 0:06:37.800 work that they're doing. 0:06:37.800 --> 0:06:40.380 So what are some of the downsides of a four- 0:06:40.380 --> 0:06:43.110 day working week and how could those be managed? 0:06:43.740 --> 0:06:46.169 Definitely some of the downsides we hear about are there 0:06:46.170 --> 0:06:50.460 not being enough time for staff being together, that social 0:06:50.460 --> 0:06:53.039 time. We have seen that managed by companies being really 0:06:53.040 --> 0:06:55.380 strict about putting something in the diary like once every 0:06:55.380 --> 0:06:58.589 month to make sure that does happen. There's certainly industries 0:06:58.589 --> 0:07:00.360 and sectors where it is going to be more complex 0:07:00.360 --> 0:07:03.600 to implement. It is also about working differently. We often 0:07:03.600 --> 0:07:06.240 inherit ways of working that go back decades and actually 0:07:06.240 --> 0:07:10.920 we've found the newer startup organization are much more agile 0:07:10.920 --> 0:07:12.570 and able to adjust to something like a four- day 0:07:12.570 --> 0:07:13.440 week much easier. 0:07:14.100 --> 0:07:17.040 Is there a particular group of people or are there 0:07:17.040 --> 0:07:20.670 particular groups of people for whom this could be quite 0:07:20.670 --> 0:07:21.780 a good model? 0:07:22.410 --> 0:07:24.690 We think in the long term, the vast majority of the economy 0:07:24.690 --> 0:07:26.760 could shift to a four- day working week, but we've 0:07:26.760 --> 0:07:28.290 been honest about the fact it is going to be 0:07:28.290 --> 0:07:30.420 more difficult in certain sectors, in certain areas of the 0:07:30.420 --> 0:07:32.700 economy. It will be more complex to implement and we 0:07:32.700 --> 0:07:34.500 might have to be more creative about how we implement 0:07:34.500 --> 0:07:36.929 it. I mean, I do also want to stress that 0:07:36.960 --> 0:07:39.690 working a four- day week isn't just about doing everything that 0:07:39.690 --> 0:07:41.670 you should do in a five- day week, but packing 0:07:41.670 --> 0:07:44.070 it into four days. It is that opportunity to work 0:07:44.070 --> 0:07:46.770 differently. To really look at the work that everyone's doing, bring 0:07:46.770 --> 0:07:49.890 the team together, to work more strategically and work more 0:07:49.890 --> 0:07:53.280 effectively and to get the rewards of people being better 0:07:53.280 --> 0:07:55.200 rested and then being more effective. 0:07:55.440 --> 0:07:57.870 So could we see a rise in things like job 0:07:57.870 --> 0:08:00.929 sharing for instance? Could that be a potential solution to 0:08:00.930 --> 0:08:03.090 some of those challenges that you might face with a four- 0:08:03.090 --> 0:08:03.690 day week? 0:08:04.020 --> 0:08:05.760 I think we'll see more and more of that. I 0:08:05.760 --> 0:08:10.320 think ultimately this wider conversation about flexible working, four- day 0:08:10.320 --> 0:08:13.050 working week, what it's all about is that workers want 0:08:13.050 --> 0:08:15.390 more freedom and more autonomy from work, and that will probably 0:08:15.390 --> 0:08:17.520 happen in different ways. I think there will be job sharing, there'll 0:08:17.520 --> 0:08:20.340 be more part- time work. We've also got the elephant 0:08:20.340 --> 0:08:23.100 in the room as well as artificial intelligence coming in, which 0:08:23.100 --> 0:08:25.290 is doing a lot of the tasks that we do 0:08:25.290 --> 0:08:28.170 in our day- to- day jobs. So our argument on 0:08:28.170 --> 0:08:30.989 that was, well, if we want workers and people to 0:08:30.990 --> 0:08:32.939 benefit from AI, then we should all be having a 0:08:32.940 --> 0:08:34.770 shorter working week because it's doing some of the tasks 0:08:34.770 --> 0:08:35.640 that we used to be able to do. 0:08:36.000 --> 0:08:39.750 So if you are keen to work fewer hours, what 0:08:39.750 --> 0:08:42.630 are the options available for you? How can you bring 0:08:42.630 --> 0:08:46.589 that idea of working more flexibly or working less with 0:08:46.590 --> 0:08:49.200 your employer? I can imagine it might be quite a tricky 0:08:49.200 --> 0:08:50.130 conversation to have. 0:08:50.130 --> 0:08:53.820 Yeah, the government have strengthened the flexible working rights in 0:08:53.820 --> 0:08:56.220 the last couple of years, so anyone as an employee 0:08:56.220 --> 0:08:58.800 can now request more flexible way of working. Now that's not a 0:08:59.910 --> 0:09:03.510 four day, 32- hour working week as we advocate for, 0:09:03.510 --> 0:09:05.940 but there's different versions of flexible working weeks that you 0:09:05.940 --> 0:09:08.580 can offer to get a week that is more balanced. 0:09:09.210 --> 0:09:12.059 So let's chat through that because it may be that 0:09:12.360 --> 0:09:14.220 a four- day week would not be on the table 0:09:14.220 --> 0:09:18.209 for certain employees. A nurse, for instance. Could there be other 0:09:18.240 --> 0:09:21.330 things that they could ask for instead that would help 0:09:21.330 --> 0:09:24.030 them achieve that balance and those boundaries in their life? 0:09:24.090 --> 0:09:27.209 You can ask for job sharing, part- time work, compressed 0:09:27.210 --> 0:09:29.010 hours where you're doing the same amount of hours, but 0:09:29.010 --> 0:09:31.170 over a four- day week, you can also ask for a nine- 0:09:31.170 --> 0:09:34.620 day fortnight. Actually increasingly, we're seeing hundreds of companies move 0:09:34.620 --> 0:09:36.780 to nine day fortnight rather than a four- day week, 0:09:36.780 --> 0:09:39.270 which is halfway there. So they'll reduce the working hours, 0:09:39.270 --> 0:09:41.250 but one week they're doing five days and the next 0:09:41.250 --> 0:09:41.971 week they're doing four. 0:09:41.971 --> 0:09:44.880 That's interesting. I haven't come across the nine- day fortnight 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:47.010 as much, but maybe that's a bit more of a 0:09:47.340 --> 0:09:48.270 halfway house. 0:09:48.300 --> 0:09:48.599 Yes. 0:09:49.559 --> 0:09:52.440 Another question I have is that what are people spending 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:55.530 that day off doing? I'm quite curious because I've read 0:09:55.530 --> 0:09:59.429 about quite recently that there's been a big rise in 0:09:59.429 --> 0:10:02.070 the number of people going to the golf club or 0:10:02.070 --> 0:10:04.320 going to the hairdressers or doing things that they would 0:10:04.320 --> 0:10:07.110 otherwise do on the weekend midweek. So a lot of 0:10:07.110 --> 0:10:09.179 these businesses within the economy are seeing a bit of 0:10:09.480 --> 0:10:12.450 a midweek boom. So I think that's quite interesting and 0:10:12.450 --> 0:10:15.150 it points to the fact that people maybe are making 0:10:15.150 --> 0:10:17.160 the most of that day off, but what are you 0:10:17.160 --> 0:10:19.021 seeing in terms of how people are using that day? 0:10:19.021 --> 0:10:22.170 I think it's a real mix. Some of the anecdotal feedback we 0:10:22.170 --> 0:10:24.780 get back is people just doing their life admin, catching 0:10:24.780 --> 0:10:26.340 up on the things as you say, they haven't had 0:10:26.340 --> 0:10:30.059 time to do in the week. In Valencia, the government 0:10:30.059 --> 0:10:32.490 trialed a four- day week every Friday for a month. 0:10:32.490 --> 0:10:34.410 I think it was in April. It was interesting that 0:10:34.410 --> 0:10:38.070 that study found that actually the hospitality service sector really 0:10:38.070 --> 0:10:40.620 boomed on that Friday. So I do think there's real, 0:10:40.620 --> 0:10:42.720 real benefits of this for hospitality industry. 0:10:42.750 --> 0:10:45.929 Mind you, I imagine in Valencia just sitting outside with 0:10:45.929 --> 0:10:47.790 a coffee or a beer, it's going to be a 0:10:47.790 --> 0:10:49.770 bit more attractive than here in the UK, right? 0:10:49.770 --> 0:10:51.480 These days it's hot in July and August. 0:10:51.929 --> 0:10:53.700 Well, true. Yeah, you can make the most of it, 0:10:53.700 --> 0:10:57.480 I'm sure. So, Joe, what are the three simple things 0:10:57.750 --> 0:11:01.350 that someone can do to maintain healthy boundaries at work 0:11:01.380 --> 0:11:02.970 whatever their working model is? 0:11:03.360 --> 0:11:06.300 So I think a big one is being really aware 0:11:06.300 --> 0:11:09.150 of your screen time use and trying to set some 0:11:09.150 --> 0:11:12.360 clear boundaries to when work starts and ends. The danger 0:11:12.360 --> 0:11:14.459 of working from home is that actually those lines are 0:11:14.460 --> 0:11:15.600 so much more blurry. 0:11:16.050 --> 0:11:16.350 Oh, absolutely. 0:11:16.830 --> 0:11:19.320 Also having time where potentially you put your phone away 0:11:19.320 --> 0:11:21.240 from your desk. Maybe you're not even checking your emails, 0:11:21.240 --> 0:11:22.709 you're just really focusing on the work that you need 0:11:22.710 --> 0:11:25.890 to get done. Two, take your annual leave. Take your 0:11:25.890 --> 0:11:28.920 bank holidays. Workers have fought for those over generations. Take 0:11:28.920 --> 0:11:31.470 them and enjoy that time off. Also take a lunch 0:11:31.470 --> 0:11:34.440 break. There's too many people, including myself sometimes, who will 0:11:34.440 --> 0:11:37.559 sit at your computer screen for an hour with a 0:11:37.559 --> 0:11:39.270 sandwich next to you and that's not good either. 0:11:39.420 --> 0:11:41.220 No. Try to avoid al desko. 0:11:41.610 --> 0:11:42.990 Yeah, exactly. Get to the park, have a walk. 0:11:43.650 --> 0:11:48.600 That's a great idea. Yeah. Really thought- provoking. Lots to 0:11:48.600 --> 0:11:54.000 consider. Thank you, Joe. Next time, financial psychotherapist Vicky Reynal 0:11:54.030 --> 0:11:56.490 will be here to help us work out the psychology 0:11:56.490 --> 0:12:00.179 behind our spending. Sounds very intriguing. I'd love it if 0:12:00.179 --> 0:12:03.000 you could follow the podcast, leave us a review, and 0:12:03.000 --> 0:12:06.209 help others get a little bit richer too. You can 0:12:06.210 --> 0:12:10.440 keep up with the show on YouTube, TikTok, and Instagram at 0:12:10.530 --> 0:12:14.250 Legal and General. Thanks for listening. Until next time, see 0:12:14.250 --> 0:12:14.640 you soon.