Speaker 1: This series is brought to you by LNG, helping you
Speaker 1: build a future that's a little bit richer.
Iona Bain: Hello, I'm Iona Bain, and welcome to A Little Bit
Iona Bain: Richer, brought to you by legal in general. January is a
Iona Bain: month which does see an increase in people looking to
Iona Bain: divorce. Ending a marriage and facing the financial reality of
Iona Bain: a recent separation is a difficult process. So, today we
Iona Bain: want to reassure you that you don't have to have
Iona Bain: everything figured out at once. Divorce isn't linear. It's emotional,
Iona Bain: it's messy, and it can be expensive, but we're going
Iona Bain: to share practical steps that you can take to protect
Iona Bain: your future. Joining me today is friend of the show,
Iona Bain: Jenny Hazan, who leads a team at LNG, focused on
Iona Bain: supporting people to build long- term financial wellbeing. Jenny went
Iona Bain: through a divorce herself a few years ago and understands
Iona Bain: firsthand the emotional and financial complexities that come with it.
Iona Bain: So, whether you're currently navigating a breakup, supporting a friend
Iona Bain: through one, or simply want to understand what your rights
Iona Bain: and options are, we've got buckets of knowledge for you
Iona Bain: today. Hello, Jenny.
Jenny Hazan: Hi.
Iona Bain: Before we dive into the subject, can you share your
Iona Bain: story with us?
Jenny Hazan: Yeah, absolutely. So, I actually went through my own divorce
Jenny Hazan: about four years ago now, luckily, relatively amicably. But I
Jenny Hazan: think any point where you go from a we to
Jenny Hazan: a me is a massive life shift. And so, for
Jenny Hazan: me, looking back, actually there's so many things that I
Jenny Hazan: wish I had known at the time, areas that I
Jenny Hazan: had to scrabble around for information that I wish was
Jenny Hazan: clearer. And then from a day- to- day perspective, what
Jenny Hazan: I do for work, I really look at how people
Jenny Hazan: think and feel when it comes to money and their
Jenny Hazan: future. So, that gives me a little bit more insight,
Jenny Hazan: I guess, into what we're thinking and feeling when big
Jenny Hazan: changes happen and when we're trying to re- look at
Jenny Hazan: our finances. So, I'm hoping I can bring together a
Jenny Hazan: little bit of that personal experience and also that insight
Jenny Hazan: through the work that I do to help anyone who
Jenny Hazan: is potentially looking at a divorce right now, separating, even
Jenny Hazan: a big breakup actually, because I think it's just as
Jenny Hazan: relevant in that situation. And then actually anyone who's still
Jenny Hazan: in a loving partnership or looking for a partner and
Jenny Hazan: really wants to think about the sorts of conversations that
Jenny Hazan: we should be having about money no matter what.
Iona Bain: Mm- hmm. Well, I'm sure your insight is going to
Iona Bain: be incredibly helpful here. And you've given us a glimpse
Iona Bain: into how emotionally and financially difficult divorce can be. What
Iona Bain: areas of people's lives does divorce have the greatest impact,
Iona Bain: do you think?
Jenny Hazan: Well, I always say that divorce is actually two breakups.
Jenny Hazan: So, the first is with the person, and the second
Jenny Hazan: is a breakup really with the future that you were
Jenny Hazan: creating together. So, the emotional bit really hits first. It's
Jenny Hazan: the change in your normal day- to- day life. It's
Jenny Hazan: the change in what you expected your future to look
Jenny Hazan: like. It's even the mental load of having to make
Jenny Hazan: big decisions on your own, and particularly at a time
Jenny Hazan: when you are having to make some really big decisions.
Jenny Hazan: But for me, what was really, really hard was actually
Jenny Hazan: I met my ex- partner when I was 18 years
Jenny Hazan: old. And so, then when we separated, I had to
Jenny Hazan: learn how to trust myself in a new way that
Jenny Hazan: I hadn't done before. So, emotionally, it takes a big
Jenny Hazan: toll, but it can also feel weirdly quite exciting as
Jenny Hazan: well, fresh chapter. From a financial perspective, I think one
Jenny Hazan: of the biggest shocks is really around housing costs and
Jenny Hazan: bills. So, your rent, your mortgage, your utilities, and this
Jenny Hazan: is something that we sometimes call the singles tax. And
Jenny Hazan: of course that is not a real tax, but it
Jenny Hazan: feels like one when suddenly overnight your costs can even
Jenny Hazan: double sometimes. And that's before you even think about the
Jenny Hazan: cost of the divorce itself. So, even if you're on
Jenny Hazan: good terms, if it's amicable, there are costs to divorce.
Jenny Hazan: And if you can't agree on how to split your
Jenny Hazan: money, your assets, et cetera, those costs can increase considerably
Jenny Hazan: quite quickly.
Iona Bain: Do you have any advice for someone who might be
Iona Bain: in that situation right now and they're wondering, how do
Iona Bain: I do this on my own?
Jenny Hazan: Yeah. Well, the first thing is to give yourself a
Jenny Hazan: little bit of grace. And the second is to know
Jenny Hazan: that you can start small. So, three things that I
Jenny Hazan: would say that everyone can start is firstly, know your
Jenny Hazan: numbers. So, what's going in, what's going out. It doesn't
Jenny Hazan: have to be some sort of epic Excel wizardry, but
Jenny Hazan: just understanding your money. The second thing is to build
Jenny Hazan: a small buffer. So, we're talking 10 pounds a week,
Jenny Hazan: five pounds a week even, something that gives you a
Jenny Hazan: habit really in terms of rebuilding up that emergency savings.
Jenny Hazan: And to be honest, it's less about the actual figure.
Jenny Hazan: It's more about giving yourself a feeling of, " You know
Jenny Hazan: what? I've got this."
Iona Bain: Yeah.
Jenny Hazan: And then the third thing, which I think is really
Jenny Hazan: important and often overlooked is actually realigning how you spend
Jenny Hazan: with the life you have now, not the life you
Jenny Hazan: had before. And I think it's important to say that
Jenny Hazan: we often talk about divorce and it feels very depressing,
Jenny Hazan: but I also think it opens a new chapter for
Jenny Hazan: people and it gives you the ability to choose for
Jenny Hazan: yourself without actually having to make some of those compromises
Jenny Hazan: about what you want your life to look like. So,
Jenny Hazan: it is important to consider that.
Iona Bain: Yes. I'm glad that we're focusing as much on how
Iona Bain: we can make the most of life after divorce-
Jenny Hazan: Absolutely.
Iona Bain: ... as much as we're talking about the financial challenges
Iona Bain: that come about. Pensions are often mentioned as a forgotten
Iona Bain: asset during divorce. Why is that? And what do people need
Iona Bain: to be aware of?
Jenny Hazan: Well, honestly, when you're going through a divorce or even
Jenny Hazan: a big breakup, no one is sat there thinking, " I
Jenny Hazan: wonder what my pension will be when I'm 60 years
Jenny Hazan: old. Will that help me live the life that I
Jenny Hazan: want to have?" And what's really important here is the
Jenny Hazan: pension is often the second- biggest asset that you have,
Jenny Hazan: or you have collectively between you and your partner. And it
Jenny Hazan: is often forgotten because it seems like it's very much
Jenny Hazan: far in the distance. I don't need to think about
Jenny Hazan: all these complex things right now. I'm just trying to
Jenny Hazan: deal with your emotional load and maybe some of the more day- to-
Jenny Hazan: day visible financial needs, but the pension should be included
Jenny Hazan: as part of the discussion around your joint finances. I
Jenny Hazan: think often people look at the number that is today
Jenny Hazan: and they don't actually think about how that pension might
Jenny Hazan: grow over time. And so, it's really important just to
Jenny Hazan: start off with, do you actually know what each other's
Jenny Hazan: pension assets look like and are you including them in
Jenny Hazan: the discussion? And all of this is really about setting
Jenny Hazan: a fair basis for how you are going to divide
Jenny Hazan: those assets, which is particularly important for women who often
Jenny Hazan: end up having a pension gap with their male counterparts.
Iona Bain: And is that because that's not something that women always
Iona Bain: realize is going to turn into a problem further down
Iona Bain: the line?
Jenny Hazan: So, there's a number of reasons. And the first one
Jenny Hazan: really is that often on average, we see women tend
Jenny Hazan: to take more career breaks or working part- time, often
Jenny Hazan: aligned with childcare or even caring responsibilities in general. Often,
Jenny Hazan: women are earning less. So, they're in lower paid roles.
Jenny Hazan: They hold less senior positions. So, their contributions in the
Jenny Hazan: first place were lower and over time that can compound
Jenny Hazan: quite considerably to be a big drop in comparison to
Jenny Hazan: a male counterpart is that consistency of paying into your
Jenny Hazan: pension is a critical element or were they thinking that
Jenny Hazan: they might be able to share in their partner's pension?
Jenny Hazan: Well, yes, because ultimately you're building a partnership and you're
Jenny Hazan: building a family perhaps. And so, you are looking at
Jenny Hazan: joint assets. And that is why it's so important that
Jenny Hazan: when we talk about divorce, that again, we're looking at
Jenny Hazan: all of these assets and making sure that we are
Jenny Hazan: dividing them fairly. One in three, people don't actually even
Jenny Hazan: review the pension as part of that discussion. One in
Jenny Hazan: five actively opt out of taking a share in their
Jenny Hazan: partner's pension. And look, every single circumstance is different, but
Jenny Hazan: ultimately, if you don't actually even understand what each other's
Jenny Hazan: got, it's going to make it really, really hard to
Jenny Hazan: make that fair. And what we often see is actually
Jenny Hazan: later on down the line is when people suddenly realize,
Jenny Hazan: women especially, that they may have less than they were
Jenny Hazan: expecting in retirement. That might be because they've looked at
Jenny Hazan: the assets and said, " You know what? I'll stick with
Jenny Hazan: the family home, particularly if they've got kids because that
Jenny Hazan: feels safer." And during a divorce, often what you crave
Jenny Hazan: is security, safety, a baseline, and that can trigger us
Jenny Hazan: to make decisions that really play into that. And that's
Jenny Hazan: not wrong, but it can lead to us not really
Jenny Hazan: realizing the longer term impact of the choices that we're
Jenny Hazan: making and really having some support, advice, guidance in that
Jenny Hazan: space is really, really critical to make sure that you
Jenny Hazan: don't regret it later on.
Iona Bain: Absolutely. And this seems to be a problem with not
Iona Bain: including women enough in the conversation. So, to be clear,
Iona Bain: it's not necessarily your fault if you've not been involved
Iona Bain: in your husband's financial planning up to now, maybe you've
Iona Bain: not been asked in, but what you can do is
Iona Bain: at this point now say, " Yeah, let's have that conversation.
Iona Bain: I want to know what we've got and what we
Iona Bain: can do to make it fair." And that's well within
Iona Bain: your rights to do that.
Jenny Hazan: Yeah, absolutely. That knowing your numbers piece is critical, but
Jenny Hazan: it's never too late. So, I think sometimes people think, "
Jenny Hazan: Oh, I haven't done that up until now." And now
Jenny Hazan: I'm at a point where maybe it is less friendly.
Jenny Hazan: Maybe there is now a lot between you and your ex-
Jenny Hazan: partner that makes it difficult to have these conversations. And
Jenny Hazan: I think what we often hear from financial advisors is
Jenny Hazan: maybe the couple will come to the first session together
Jenny Hazan: to talk about finances, but in follow- up sessions, actually
Jenny Hazan: it tends to be more likely one partner. And then
Jenny Hazan: over time, that means your knowledge starts to shift and go.
Iona Bain: So, you've talked a bit about getting support and advice.
Iona Bain: What kinds of support should people be thinking about at
Iona Bain: this time?
Jenny Hazan: I think it is a really big time of change and
Jenny Hazan: no one should have to go through a divorce on
Jenny Hazan: their own. So, emotional support is really important, be that
Jenny Hazan: from a friend, a coach, a therapist, someone that can
Jenny Hazan: just give you the space when it's really noisy. We
Jenny Hazan: underestimate, I think, how much is just going on for
Jenny Hazan: us internally that we need an opportunity to take a
Jenny Hazan: step back, particularly because we will be making very big
Jenny Hazan: decisions. The second one is around legal support. So, often
Jenny Hazan: people worry, I think about costs of legal fees, et
Jenny Hazan: cetera, but even having a short introductory conversation with a
Jenny Hazan: solicitor or even a mediator who can just really help
Jenny Hazan: you to understand what your rights are and also what
Jenny Hazan: does a fair settlement look like. And I think that
Jenny Hazan: brings a lot of peace of mind just knowing because
Jenny Hazan: the unknown is the bit that often causes us a
Jenny Hazan: lot of internal turmoil really. And then finally, we've been
Jenny Hazan: talking about financial advice. When you look at getting divorced,
Jenny Hazan: money can get complex. Pensions and sharing them can get
Jenny Hazan: complex. And I think this is the area where it's
Jenny Hazan: really important to have professional advice. Our natural instinct is
Jenny Hazan: to turn to friends and family, and there is nothing
Jenny Hazan: wrong with that. In fact, I absolutely loved my friends
Jenny Hazan: and family for all of the support they gave me,
Jenny Hazan: but financial advice and really trying to help me understand
Jenny Hazan: how the finances would be breaking down and what that
Jenny Hazan: would mean for me today, but also what that would
Jenny Hazan: mean for my future and how I would then rebuild
Jenny Hazan: those finances with a professional advisor who are there to
Jenny Hazan: help you really figure out, okay, today this is a
Jenny Hazan: good choice for me to do X, Y, Z. Am
Jenny Hazan: I going to have enough in the short term, the
Jenny Hazan: medium term, the long term, and how do I get
Jenny Hazan: back on track with my goals? And that includes any
Jenny Hazan: assets or income or savings that you might get as
Jenny Hazan: part of the divorce, what you're going to do with
Jenny Hazan: them next to build up that next chapter of life.
Iona Bain: Mm- hmm. And it sounds like having a dispassionate person
Iona Bain: involved in that process is really important because your friends
Iona Bain: and family, they're your cheerleaders.
Jenny Hazan: Exactly.
Iona Bain: They're always going to stick up for you, which is
Iona Bain: wonderful, but that might sometimes ever so slightly cloud their advice.
Jenny Hazan: Yes, maybe.
Iona Bain: So, let's talk about a few of the technical legal
Iona Bain: things that can happen when you get a divorce. What
Iona Bain: exactly are a financial consent order and clean break order?
Iona Bain: How are they different and why would you consider these
Iona Bain: things when you get divorced?
Jenny Hazan: They sound a little bit scary, those words, don't they?
Iona Bain: They really do. Yeah.
Jenny Hazan: Yeah. So, let's talk through them one by one. So,
Jenny Hazan: your financial consent order in reality is paperwork that just
Jenny Hazan: legally and finally confirms what you and your ex- partner have
Jenny Hazan: agreed about what you're doing with money. So, pensions, assets,
Jenny Hazan: any maintenance payments, anything along those lines. And that's a really
Jenny Hazan: important part to get clear on how you're going to
Jenny Hazan: divide assets. And that's about what you're doing right now.
Jenny Hazan: When we look at a clean break order, that almost
Jenny Hazan: takes it to the next step. It's like the advanced
Jenny Hazan: version and can be included as part of the submission
Jenny Hazan: that you make in your financial consent order. But that
Jenny Hazan: is about saying from the point that you've settled your
Jenny Hazan: divorce, from that point onwards, we will have no claim
Jenny Hazan: on each other's income, future assets. If you were to
Jenny Hazan: get a great big inheritance further down the line, I
Jenny Hazan: won't get any looking on that. And then my favorite
Jenny Hazan: example, if one of us wins the lottery, we're not
Jenny Hazan: going to suddenly turn up and say, " Ooh, I would
Jenny Hazan: like a bit of that, please." And the way I
Jenny Hazan: can explain it that is hopefully simple is if you
Jenny Hazan: go to a restaurant, the first one, the financial consent
Jenny Hazan: order is really about agreeing between you, how you're going
Jenny Hazan: to settle the bill there and then current situation. The
Jenny Hazan: clean break order is really about you agreeing that in
Jenny Hazan: five years time, you're not going to send each other
Jenny Hazan: an invoice trying to change the agreed amount that you
Jenny Hazan: had back then. So, one of them's current, one of
Jenny Hazan: them's future. Now, it's not right for everyone. So, for
Jenny Hazan: example, a clean break order might not be right if
Jenny Hazan: you've got ongoing maintenance payments, child payments, et cetera, but
Jenny Hazan: that's where good advice can help you understand.
Iona Bain: So, divorce, it's not just about separating finances though. It's about
Iona Bain: updating paperwork, not the most thrilling task in the world,
Iona Bain: but it is important. What are the key documents that people often
Iona Bain: forget to review during this time?
Jenny Hazan: They don't tell you about the admin, but actually there
Jenny Hazan: are a few key things that are really, really important. So,
Jenny Hazan: the first one is if you have any joint accounts,
Jenny Hazan: joint credit cards, joint loans, debt, you are both legally
Jenny Hazan: responsible for these. So, it's really important. Reach out to
Jenny Hazan: your lender early on. Some people are surprised about how
Jenny Hazan: helpful they are, but you have to imagine that lenders
Jenny Hazan: deal with this all the time and they can help
Jenny Hazan: you understand your options. The second thing, it's really checking
Jenny Hazan: the will, checking the pension, checking your insurances, and seeing
Jenny Hazan: if you've still got your ex listed as the person
Jenny Hazan: who will benefit from all of these things if you
Jenny Hazan: were to die. And it's a great opportunity to review
Jenny Hazan: what you did say, what you do want to happen
Jenny Hazan: if anything was to happen to you. And then the
Jenny Hazan: third space is really if you've got any joint life
Jenny Hazan: policies or health policies, you'll need to consider taking out
Jenny Hazan: a policy on your own. This is a great time
Jenny Hazan: for you to also think about if as your needs
Jenny Hazan: have changed, whether you have any additional needs. So, a
Jenny Hazan: good example is if you move out on your own
Jenny Hazan: and suddenly you are solely responsible for your rent or
Jenny Hazan: your mortgage, what would happen if you were unable to
Jenny Hazan: work for a long period of time due to sickness
Jenny Hazan: or ill health? So, there's income protection helps with that.
Jenny Hazan: So, it's just important to check in on, is it
Jenny Hazan: a straight swap just to a policy on my own
Jenny Hazan: or is it me rethinking the needs that I've now
Jenny Hazan: got and what would be best suited?
Iona Bain: Mm- hmm. Quite a lot to think about there, but
Iona Bain: all those things are really important because actually in my
Iona Bain: line of work, you do see a lot of these
Iona Bain: things end up in court later on and it can
Iona Bain: get quite messy and you can definitely avoid that with
Iona Bain: just a bit of attention to the paperwork now. So,
Iona Bain: once a dust settles, what are some practical steps that
Iona Bain: people can take to then build up their savings and
Iona Bain: their pensions on their own? So, you take a breath.
Jenny Hazan: Finally reached a point where you feel more grounded in
Jenny Hazan: what you can do next and that's important. Again, you
Jenny Hazan: can start small. The first thing is really about building
Jenny Hazan: up that emergency savings buffer. So, we often say three
Jenny Hazan: to six months of your essential expenses is what you
Jenny Hazan: should put aside in cash somewhere accessible that gives you
Jenny Hazan: that safety net. So, that's really important. Once you've done
Jenny Hazan: that, you can then start to think about what some
Jenny Hazan: of those medium and long- term goals are that you've
Jenny Hazan: got for yourself and you can start saving. Just put
Jenny Hazan: a little bit away each month. If you're thinking about
Jenny Hazan: medium to long- term goals, so five years plus, you
Jenny Hazan: can also think about investing as well. And the long-
Jenny Hazan: term bit is really about checking in with your pension.
Jenny Hazan: So, what happened during the time that you were going
Jenny Hazan: through the separation divorce? Did you reduce your contributions? Do
Jenny Hazan: you need to lift those back up? Are you on
Jenny Hazan: track for what you really want? And I think it's
Jenny Hazan: hard, isn't it? Because you sit there and think, " Oh
Jenny Hazan: God, in 30 years, I can put that off." But
Jenny Hazan: actually people don't realize how much of a bigger difference
Jenny Hazan: a small change today will make in those 20 to 30 years.
Jenny Hazan: And look, you can access lots of apps and tools.
Jenny Hazan: And we have launched a guided retirement planner that actually
Jenny Hazan: helps people to play around with those options. So, what
Jenny Hazan: happens if I add a little bit in each month
Jenny Hazan: and it's quite amazing the sort of impact that you
Jenny Hazan: see that it can have and that can be really motivating.
Jenny Hazan: So, an opportunity for you to just reset.
Iona Bain: Yes. And get that inspiration where you can find it.
Jenny Hazan: Exactly.
Iona Bain: Well, this has been incredibly helpful, Jenny. I'm going to
Iona Bain: finish up with what is the one thing that you
Iona Bain: would like people to take away from this?
Jenny Hazan: Talk to your partner or ex- partner about money. It
Jenny Hazan: can be really awkward to have those conversations in the
Jenny Hazan: beginning, but I promise you it will be financially better
Jenny Hazan: to have the conversations than dealing with them later on.
Jenny Hazan: And if you are going through a divorce or a
Jenny Hazan: big breakup, then it's still really important that you get
Jenny Hazan: to know those numbers. So, start that conversation now.
Iona Bain: I couldn't agree more. Thank you so much.
Jenny Hazan: Thank you.
Iona Bain: And that brings us to the end of today's episode
Iona Bain: of A Little Bit Richer. A huge thank you to
Iona Bain: Jenny for sharing her expertise and her personal insights, which
Iona Bain: will hopefully make this whole area feel that little bit
Iona Bain: easier to navigate. If you found this episode helpful, I'd
Iona Bain: love it if you could share it with someone who
Iona Bain: might need it right now. Next time, friend of the
Iona Bain: show, Crystal McGilvrey is back to talk about how to
Iona Bain: handle the ups and downs of being self- employed. This
Iona Bain: podcast is brought to you by LNG. You can keep
Iona Bain: up with the show on YouTube, TikTok, and Instagram at
Iona Bain: legal and general. If you have a question or topic
Iona Bain: that you'd like answered on the show, then you can
Iona Bain: get in touch on our socials. Please do. Until next
Iona Bain: time, see you soon and thank you for listening.