1 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:05,850 Speaker 1: In sleep, I was having a lot of trouble. 2 00:00:05,970 --> 00:00:09,000 Speaker 2: If I go to bed with things whirling in my 3 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:10,440 Speaker 2: brain, it definitely takes me longer. 4 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:16,471 Speaker 1: I work late all the time. So normally I will start studying after the kids are in bed. Sometimes 1 A.M. 5 00:00:16,471 --> 00:00:22,229 Speaker 3: I normally sleep between five and six hours a night, and then I have 6 00:00:22,229 --> 00:00:24,210 Speaker 3: another one hour nap after work. 7 00:00:24,750 --> 00:00:30,540 Krutika Adatia: Hello, I'm Krutika Adatia and I'm a Chartered Accountant. I now support accountancy students through their 8 00:00:30,540 --> 00:00:34,860 Krutika Adatia: training and as an educator, I'm regularly up close and personal 9 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:38,190 Krutika Adatia: with some of the common issues people face while studying 10 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:42,659 Krutika Adatia: for and sitting their accountancy exams. So in this series 11 00:00:42,659 --> 00:00:46,350 Krutika Adatia: for the ACCA, I'm chatting to experts about strategies we 12 00:00:46,350 --> 00:00:50,640 Krutika Adatia: can all use when facing some of life's challenges. This 13 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:53,910 Krutika Adatia: week we're looking at sleep. Why is our sleep so 14 00:00:53,910 --> 00:00:57,300 Krutika Adatia: often disrupted in times of stress? What happens in the 15 00:00:57,300 --> 00:00:59,820 Krutika Adatia: brain when we sleep and how can we work with 16 00:00:59,820 --> 00:01:03,930 Krutika Adatia: our body clocks to get the best rest possible? This 17 00:01:03,990 --> 00:01:07,050 Krutika Adatia: is On Your Marks because you'll never know until you 18 00:01:07,050 --> 00:01:12,510 Krutika Adatia: try. We all know how important sleep is for survival, 19 00:01:12,810 --> 00:01:15,450 Krutika Adatia: but lucky for me, I've always loved it. As a 20 00:01:15,450 --> 00:01:18,750 Krutika Adatia: kid, I was never the one complaining about bedtime. In 21 00:01:18,750 --> 00:01:21,750 Krutika Adatia: fact, I actually looked forward to an early night and 22 00:01:21,750 --> 00:01:23,850 Krutika Adatia: for as long as I can remember, I've been an 23 00:01:23,850 --> 00:01:28,020 Krutika Adatia: early riser too. I'm that person that wakes up before their 24 00:01:28,020 --> 00:01:31,350 Krutika Adatia: alarm even goes off. But like most of us, when 25 00:01:31,350 --> 00:01:35,280 Krutika Adatia: I'm stressed, my sleep definitely takes a hit. Whether it's 26 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:38,880 Krutika Adatia: tossing and turning before finally drifting off or waking up 27 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:42,090 Krutika Adatia: feeling like I could use a few more hours, it 28 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:45,390 Krutika Adatia: really makes me wonder what is it about sleep that's so 29 00:01:45,390 --> 00:01:49,740 Krutika Adatia: essential? So to dig into how sleep works, I'm joined 30 00:01:49,740 --> 00:01:54,090 Krutika Adatia: by Professor Russell Foster from the University of Oxford. He's 31 00:01:54,090 --> 00:01:58,830 Krutika Adatia: an expert in body clocks and sleep. So Russell, I'm 32 00:01:58,830 --> 00:02:01,290 Krutika Adatia: going to open with a personal question. How did you 33 00:02:01,290 --> 00:02:02,100 Krutika Adatia: sleep last night? 34 00:02:02,580 --> 00:02:05,370 Professor Russell Foster: Well, actually very well. I woke around about three o'clock in the morning as many 35 00:02:06,450 --> 00:02:08,910 Professor Russell Foster: people of my age do, but I went back to 36 00:02:08,910 --> 00:02:11,880 Professor Russell Foster: sleep within 10, 15 minutes. One of the strategies I use 37 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:15,540 Professor Russell Foster: a lot is listening to Radio 4 Extra, and I 38 00:02:15,540 --> 00:02:18,540 Professor Russell Foster: usually get five or six minutes of something In Our 39 00:02:18,540 --> 00:02:21,930 Professor Russell Foster: Time often and then fall asleep again. So the key 40 00:02:21,930 --> 00:02:25,590 Professor Russell Foster: thing is you stay unstressed in the knowledge that you 41 00:02:25,590 --> 00:02:28,320 Professor Russell Foster: almost certainly will get back to sleep. It's where you've 42 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:31,049 Professor Russell Foster: sort of wake up and think, " Oh my God, look 43 00:02:31,050 --> 00:02:33,389 Professor Russell Foster: at the alarm clock," and then get really stressed, and 44 00:02:34,260 --> 00:02:36,000 Professor Russell Foster: that's what you've got to avoid at all costs. 45 00:02:36,330 --> 00:02:38,250 Krutika Adatia: I'm glad you mentioned that you sort of put something 46 00:02:38,250 --> 00:02:40,590 Krutika Adatia: on to listen to because I like listening to audiobooks 47 00:02:40,590 --> 00:02:42,510 Krutika Adatia: and that often puts me to sleep. 48 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:45,480 Professor Russell Foster: One of my favorites is In Our Time, as I 49 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:49,200 Professor Russell Foster: mentioned, but also that wonderful series Lord Peter Wimsey. That's 50 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:50,669 Professor Russell Foster: very wonderful and non- threatening. 51 00:02:51,389 --> 00:02:53,400 Krutika Adatia: Brilliant. For me it's Harry Potter because I've read the 52 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:55,530 Krutika Adatia: books and I've watched the movies, so it's familiar and 53 00:02:55,530 --> 00:02:55,980 Krutika Adatia: it'll just... 54 00:02:56,310 --> 00:02:59,280 Professor Russell Foster: I think that's a good point because it is familiarity with 55 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:00,989 Professor Russell Foster: something that's non- threatening and gentle. 56 00:03:01,169 --> 00:03:03,180 Krutika Adatia: Why is it that we need sleep? 57 00:03:04,230 --> 00:03:07,500 Professor Russell Foster: Well, of course, for so long, sleep was disregarded as 58 00:03:07,500 --> 00:03:10,650 Professor Russell Foster: sort of an indulgence and a luxury and almost as 59 00:03:10,650 --> 00:03:13,980 Professor Russell Foster: an illness that needs a cure. And what's emerged over 60 00:03:13,980 --> 00:03:17,370 Professor Russell Foster: the past 20 years or so is that sleep is 61 00:03:17,370 --> 00:03:21,450 Professor Russell Foster: an absolutely essential part of our biology. The quality of 62 00:03:21,450 --> 00:03:25,020 Professor Russell Foster: our waking day is defined more or less by the 63 00:03:25,020 --> 00:03:27,510 Professor Russell Foster: quality of the sleep that we get. So it's an 64 00:03:27,510 --> 00:03:31,020 Professor Russell Foster: essential part of our biology and I think so many 65 00:03:31,020 --> 00:03:35,070 Professor Russell Foster: of us marginalize it. Sleep is always the first victim 66 00:03:35,070 --> 00:03:37,530 Professor Russell Foster: in squeezing more and more and more in to an 67 00:03:37,530 --> 00:03:40,950 Professor Russell Foster: over packed day. So we need to embrace it and 68 00:03:40,950 --> 00:03:43,050 Professor Russell Foster: not treat it as some sort of luxury. 69 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:45,900 Krutika Adatia: I'm glad you've mentioned that because I'm just thinking about 70 00:03:45,900 --> 00:03:50,100 Krutika Adatia: our listeners who might be students and cramming or potentially 71 00:03:50,340 --> 00:03:54,000 Krutika Adatia: working late into the night and often sacrificing their sleep, 72 00:03:54,090 --> 00:03:56,790 Krutika Adatia: what we're saying is that that shouldn't be the case. 73 00:03:57,000 --> 00:03:59,220 Professor Russell Foster: Absolutely. If we think about some of the things going 74 00:03:59,220 --> 00:04:03,210 Professor Russell Foster: on within the brain whilst we sleep and what's emerged 75 00:04:03,210 --> 00:04:06,540 Professor Russell Foster: again fairly recently is that sleep is a time when 76 00:04:06,540 --> 00:04:10,350 Professor Russell Foster: we consolidate our memory. All that information is rushing in 77 00:04:10,350 --> 00:04:12,990 Professor Russell Foster: during the day and we don't have time to process 78 00:04:12,990 --> 00:04:16,289 Professor Russell Foster: it effectively. And so whilst we sleep, we can consolidate 79 00:04:16,290 --> 00:04:19,050 Professor Russell Foster: memory. But the other thing, it's not just the retention 80 00:04:19,050 --> 00:04:23,159 Professor Russell Foster: of facts. There's a wonderful study from Germany which looked 81 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:27,750 Professor Russell Foster: at the solving of problems. So this experiment was quite 82 00:04:27,750 --> 00:04:31,409 Professor Russell Foster: a complicated task. It was introduced to individuals in the 83 00:04:31,410 --> 00:04:34,140 Professor Russell Foster: morning, so they became familiar with the task and one 84 00:04:34,140 --> 00:04:36,990 Professor Russell Foster: group performed it that afternoon and only 20% of the 85 00:04:36,990 --> 00:04:40,740 Professor Russell Foster: group actually solved the problem. The next group introduced in 86 00:04:40,740 --> 00:04:44,430 Professor Russell Foster: the morning, familiarized with the task, performed it the following 87 00:04:44,430 --> 00:04:48,510 Professor Russell Foster: afternoon, but they were deprived of sleep. Again, about 20% of 88 00:04:48,630 --> 00:04:51,960 Professor Russell Foster: the group solved the problem. But the really interesting group, 89 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:55,080 Professor Russell Foster: of course is introduced in the morning, performed at the following 90 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:59,100 Professor Russell Foster: afternoon, but with a full night of sleep, 60 to 70% of 91 00:04:59,100 --> 00:05:03,180 Professor Russell Foster: the group solved the problem. It's a brilliant example of 92 00:05:03,180 --> 00:05:07,140 Professor Russell Foster: how we're processing information. We're coming up with novel solutions 93 00:05:07,140 --> 00:05:11,279 Professor Russell Foster: to complex problems, and that's just one reason why students 94 00:05:11,580 --> 00:05:14,430 Professor Russell Foster: or all of us need to take our sleep very seriously. 95 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:18,029 Krutika Adatia: So we need that sleep to help with the consolidation, 96 00:05:18,270 --> 00:05:19,830 Krutika Adatia: the sort of memory form, which is obviously important for learning. 97 00:05:19,831 --> 00:05:23,310 Professor Russell Foster: And the answering of questions. So it's not just the 98 00:05:23,310 --> 00:05:26,729 Professor Russell Foster: retention of facts, it's the processing, it's the manipulation of 99 00:05:26,730 --> 00:05:29,160 Professor Russell Foster: that information, which I think is so amazing. 100 00:05:29,310 --> 00:05:33,330 Krutika Adatia: That is incredible. I mean, this is probably a question 101 00:05:33,330 --> 00:05:35,400 Krutika Adatia: that's sort of how long is a piece of string, 102 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:39,270 Krutika Adatia: but how many hours of sleep does an average person need? 103 00:05:39,420 --> 00:05:42,210 Professor Russell Foster: Well, that's a really good question and it's part of 104 00:05:42,210 --> 00:05:44,940 Professor Russell Foster: the reason I wrote this book called Lifetime because I 105 00:05:44,940 --> 00:05:48,180 Professor Russell Foster: was fed up with the sergeant majors of sleep screaming, " 106 00:05:48,210 --> 00:05:52,140 Professor Russell Foster: You must get eight hours." The healthy range according to 107 00:05:52,140 --> 00:05:55,050 Professor Russell Foster: the National Sleep Foundation is between six hours and some 108 00:05:55,050 --> 00:05:58,320 Professor Russell Foster: people may need up to 11 hours and it's all 109 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:03,240 Professor Russell Foster: about defining what you need and then defending your sleep. 110 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:06,210 Professor Russell Foster: And so that's the key thing. Seven to eight hours 111 00:06:06,210 --> 00:06:09,510 Professor Russell Foster: is an average, but it would be wrong to impose 112 00:06:09,510 --> 00:06:13,469 Professor Russell Foster: an average value on everybody. It's like shoe size. You 113 00:06:13,470 --> 00:06:16,620 Professor Russell Foster: wouldn't dream of making everybody wear the same shoe size 114 00:06:16,620 --> 00:06:19,980 Professor Russell Foster: and we shouldn't dream of making everybody's sleep or expecting 115 00:06:19,980 --> 00:06:23,100 Professor Russell Foster: them to sleep exactly the same length. And the key 116 00:06:23,100 --> 00:06:27,510 Professor Russell Foster: thing is defining if you're tired or not and how 117 00:06:27,510 --> 00:06:30,540 Professor Russell Foster: much sleep do you need? Well, if are feeling that you are 118 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:33,330 Professor Russell Foster: not firing all cylinders during the day, if you don't 119 00:06:33,330 --> 00:06:37,860 Professor Russell Foster: feel as though your brain isn't working accurately and precisely, 120 00:06:37,860 --> 00:06:40,050 Professor Russell Foster: that's a good indication you're not getting the sleep at 121 00:06:40,050 --> 00:06:43,650 Professor Russell Foster: night. If you oversleep on free days at the weekend, 122 00:06:43,650 --> 00:06:46,710 Professor Russell Foster: for example, if you need an alarm clock to drag 123 00:06:46,710 --> 00:06:50,040 Professor Russell Foster: you out of bed or somebody else, if you're craving 124 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:53,610 Professor Russell Foster: caffeinated drinks to wake you up, if you're feeling sluggish 125 00:06:53,610 --> 00:06:57,120 Professor Russell Foster: during the day. And importantly if you or your friends 126 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:01,050 Professor Russell Foster: and family note behavioral changes. You're more irritable, you're less 127 00:07:01,050 --> 00:07:04,500 Professor Russell Foster: empathetic, you're failing to pick up those sorts of signals 128 00:07:04,500 --> 00:07:08,310 Professor Russell Foster: from friends and family and you're doing stupid and unreflective 129 00:07:08,310 --> 00:07:10,620 Professor Russell Foster: things. This is all telling you you're not getting the 130 00:07:10,620 --> 00:07:12,600 Professor Russell Foster: sleep you need and you need to take a refresh 131 00:07:12,900 --> 00:07:14,880 Professor Russell Foster: and think, " Right, I'm going to go to bed a 132 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:17,851 Professor Russell Foster: bit earlier and get a bit longer sleep." 133 00:07:17,851 --> 00:07:20,910 Krutika Adatia: So I guess you're alluding to this in your answer 134 00:07:20,910 --> 00:07:24,030 Krutika Adatia: that you've just given, but figuring out how many hours of 135 00:07:24,090 --> 00:07:27,120 Krutika Adatia: sleep you need is just being a bit more self- aware. 136 00:07:27,210 --> 00:07:30,990 Professor Russell Foster: Absolutely, yes. And as I said, we think we don't really need 137 00:07:30,990 --> 00:07:33,600 Professor Russell Foster: sleep, so we work way into the night and I 138 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:35,850 Professor Russell Foster: certainly did as a student, but I don't think it 139 00:07:35,850 --> 00:07:39,150 Professor Russell Foster: did me any good because I didn't get that consolidation 140 00:07:39,330 --> 00:07:41,670 Professor Russell Foster: of memory and processing of information. 141 00:07:42,270 --> 00:07:44,820 Krutika Adatia: And so are we saying that maybe we might not 142 00:07:44,820 --> 00:07:47,760 Krutika Adatia: always need the same amount of sleep every day as 143 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:48,840 Krutika Adatia: well? Could it vary? 144 00:07:49,140 --> 00:07:51,270 Professor Russell Foster: Sleep is a very dynamic part of our biology. It 145 00:07:51,270 --> 00:07:55,380 Professor Russell Foster: changes as we age and due to external circumstances, we 146 00:07:55,380 --> 00:07:58,680 Professor Russell Foster: may not get the same sleep every night, but essentially 147 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:00,810 Professor Russell Foster: it's trying to get the best sleep we can. 148 00:08:01,230 --> 00:08:03,930 Krutika Adatia: Now just moving on to another topic here, which I 149 00:08:03,930 --> 00:08:08,610 Krutika Adatia: know you also have a specialism in, and that's circadian rhythm. Can you 150 00:08:08,610 --> 00:08:11,760 Krutika Adatia: tell us what exactly is the circadian rhythm? 151 00:08:12,330 --> 00:08:14,370 Professor Russell Foster: If we step back and think about, well, what's our 152 00:08:14,370 --> 00:08:18,300 Professor Russell Foster: biology? What does it do? Well, ideally it delivers the 153 00:08:18,300 --> 00:08:21,660 Professor Russell Foster: right stuff at the right concentration to the right tissues 154 00:08:21,660 --> 00:08:24,660 Professor Russell Foster: and organs at the right time of day. And this 155 00:08:24,690 --> 00:08:31,230 Professor Russell Foster: circadian rhythm's internal biological clock provides the time structure to 156 00:08:31,230 --> 00:08:33,270 Professor Russell Foster: allow us to do the right stuff at the right 157 00:08:33,270 --> 00:08:36,570 Professor Russell Foster: time. And fine tune our physiology and behavior to the 158 00:08:36,570 --> 00:08:39,750 Professor Russell Foster: very demands of the rest activity, the sleep wake cycle, 159 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:42,030 Professor Russell Foster: which of course has evolved as a result of sitting 160 00:08:42,030 --> 00:08:45,270 Professor Russell Foster: on a planet that revolves once every 24 hours. And 161 00:08:45,270 --> 00:08:50,160 Professor Russell Foster: so it's providing this essential time structure for life. So 162 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:52,950 Professor Russell Foster: in anticipation of going to bed, we see that core 163 00:08:52,950 --> 00:08:58,140 Professor Russell Foster: body temperature drops, we see other factors, hormonal changes occur, 164 00:08:58,350 --> 00:09:00,630 Professor Russell Foster: and then in anticipation of waking up in the morning 165 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:04,650 Professor Russell Foster: before we've even woken up, core body temperature rises, metabolic 166 00:09:04,650 --> 00:09:11,309 Professor Russell Foster: rate increases, and we're mobilizing glucose and hormones underpinning energy 167 00:09:11,580 --> 00:09:13,890 Professor Russell Foster: so that when we do wake up, we can exploit 168 00:09:13,890 --> 00:09:17,760 Professor Russell Foster: that new environment, the dawn to our best of abilities. 169 00:09:17,940 --> 00:09:22,290 Professor Russell Foster: So it's this wonderful device to anticipate predictable change within 170 00:09:22,290 --> 00:09:25,260 Professor Russell Foster: the environment and allowing us to function optimally. 171 00:09:25,410 --> 00:09:29,190 Krutika Adatia: Right. And so are we saying everyone has the same 172 00:09:29,190 --> 00:09:32,459 Krutika Adatia: kind of biological body clock or does it vary from 173 00:09:32,460 --> 00:09:33,780 Krutika Adatia: individual to individual? 174 00:09:33,780 --> 00:09:38,070 Professor Russell Foster: It certainly varies, and that brings us really to the subject of chronotype. 175 00:09:38,309 --> 00:09:42,120 Professor Russell Foster: And that sort of crudely means whether you're a morning 176 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:46,199 Professor Russell Foster: person, a lark, an intermediate dove, or a late person, 177 00:09:46,260 --> 00:09:49,440 Professor Russell Foster: an owl. And there are three factors that contribute to 178 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:52,050 Professor Russell Foster: this. One is your genes. So we know that there 179 00:09:52,050 --> 00:09:54,929 Professor Russell Foster: are subtle changes, very small changes in some of the 180 00:09:54,929 --> 00:09:59,730 Professor Russell Foster: clock genes which underpin our circadian rhythms. And they can 181 00:09:59,880 --> 00:10:01,829 Professor Russell Foster: make you get up earlier or make you get up 182 00:10:01,830 --> 00:10:06,929 Professor Russell Foster: late. And so by essentially their contribution to our genes, 183 00:10:06,929 --> 00:10:08,760 Professor Russell Foster: our parents are still telling us what time to go 184 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:11,520 Professor Russell Foster: to bed and get up. So there's that element which 185 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:15,000 Professor Russell Foster: is to some extent fixed. The other thing that changes 186 00:10:15,210 --> 00:10:17,520 Professor Russell Foster: is how old we are. So from about the age 187 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:19,470 Professor Russell Foster: of 10, there's a tendency to want to go to 188 00:10:19,470 --> 00:10:22,230 Professor Russell Foster: bed later and later and later peaking in the late 189 00:10:22,230 --> 00:10:26,790 Professor Russell Foster: teens, early twenties. So there's a sharp rise in wanting 190 00:10:26,790 --> 00:10:29,280 Professor Russell Foster: to go to bed later. And then there's a slow 191 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:32,400 Professor Russell Foster: return as you age to want to go to bed 192 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:35,370 Professor Russell Foster: earlier. So by the time you're in your late fifties, sixties, you're 193 00:10:35,370 --> 00:10:37,709 Professor Russell Foster: getting up and going to bed at about the time 194 00:10:37,890 --> 00:10:39,900 Professor Russell Foster: you got up and went to bed when you were 10, 195 00:10:39,900 --> 00:10:43,320 Professor Russell Foster: 11. But the key thing is that somebody in their 196 00:10:43,830 --> 00:10:47,520 Professor Russell Foster: fifties, sixties will want to go to bed on average 197 00:10:47,730 --> 00:10:51,209 Professor Russell Foster: two hours earlier than when they were going to bed 198 00:10:51,210 --> 00:10:54,540 Professor Russell Foster: in their late teens and twenties. And that sharp rise 199 00:10:54,540 --> 00:10:57,870 Professor Russell Foster: and slow move to a more morning chronotype is due 200 00:10:57,870 --> 00:11:01,350 Professor Russell Foster: to the hormonal changes associated with puberty. So we've got 201 00:11:01,470 --> 00:11:05,699 Professor Russell Foster: genes, we've got the sex hormones. And the third thing, 202 00:11:05,700 --> 00:11:07,860 Professor Russell Foster: which is the thing we have some control over and 203 00:11:07,860 --> 00:11:12,929 Professor Russell Foster: is often overlooked is when we see light. So morning 204 00:11:12,929 --> 00:11:17,040 Professor Russell Foster: light advances the biological clock, makes us get up earlier 205 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:21,990 Professor Russell Foster: and go to bed earlier. Evening light, dusk light delays 206 00:11:21,990 --> 00:11:24,059 Professor Russell Foster: the clock, we want to go to bed later and 207 00:11:24,059 --> 00:11:26,760 Professor Russell Foster: get up later. We did some studies actually on university 208 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:29,130 Professor Russell Foster: students a few years ago all over the world, and 209 00:11:29,130 --> 00:11:33,090 Professor Russell Foster: we found that the more owl- like they were, they 210 00:11:33,090 --> 00:11:35,189 Professor Russell Foster: were missing the morning light, which will get them up 211 00:11:35,190 --> 00:11:38,699 Professor Russell Foster: earlier, but they were getting lots of late afternoon evening 212 00:11:38,700 --> 00:11:42,330 Professor Russell Foster: light, which would push the clock later. And so it's 213 00:11:42,330 --> 00:11:44,640 Professor Russell Foster: a key point because if you're a late type, you 214 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:47,459 Professor Russell Foster: can set the alarm, either sit in front of a 215 00:11:47,460 --> 00:11:51,480 Professor Russell Foster: light box. If it's sunny outside, go outside 30 minutes 216 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:54,630 Professor Russell Foster: and you can sort of nudge clock forward in time. 217 00:11:54,809 --> 00:11:59,459 Professor Russell Foster: So there's three things, genes, age, development, and when you 218 00:11:59,460 --> 00:11:59,790 Professor Russell Foster: see light. 219 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:04,500 Krutika Adatia: What happens then to our sleep when students are stressed 220 00:12:04,500 --> 00:12:05,610 Krutika Adatia: or anxious? 221 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:09,059 Professor Russell Foster: Well, this is the great enemy of sleep. Most people don't 222 00:12:09,059 --> 00:12:12,570 Professor Russell Foster: have a sleep problem at all. It's dealing with anxiety 223 00:12:12,570 --> 00:12:16,860 Professor Russell Foster: and stress and that can delay sleep onset. Or if 224 00:12:16,860 --> 00:12:19,050 Professor Russell Foster: you wake up, it'll be very difficult to get back 225 00:12:19,050 --> 00:12:21,630 Professor Russell Foster: to sleep again. And so what you need to do 226 00:12:22,050 --> 00:12:25,770 Professor Russell Foster: is devise strategies that de- stress. First of all, embrace 227 00:12:25,770 --> 00:12:29,880 Professor Russell Foster: sleep and enjoy the sleep that you get. Recognising that 228 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:32,850 Professor Russell Foster: your sleep pattern may be different from your partner or 229 00:12:32,910 --> 00:12:35,580 Professor Russell Foster: whoever you share your life with. And we're going back 230 00:12:35,580 --> 00:12:39,420 Professor Russell Foster: to defining how much sleep that you need. And so 231 00:12:39,420 --> 00:12:42,480 Professor Russell Foster: at the end of the day, you need to wind 232 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:47,670 Professor Russell Foster: down. That may be relaxation therapy, for example. It may 233 00:12:47,670 --> 00:12:52,829 Professor Russell Foster: be exercise. Don't exercise too close to bedtime because that 234 00:12:52,830 --> 00:12:55,890 Professor Russell Foster: can raise core body temperature and that can actually delay 235 00:12:55,890 --> 00:12:58,170 Professor Russell Foster: you getting to sleep. That's one of the interesting things 236 00:12:58,170 --> 00:13:01,320 Professor Russell Foster: about sleep initiation. That's a drop in core body temperature. 237 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:05,340 Professor Russell Foster: The other thing I recommend is not talking about stressful 238 00:13:05,340 --> 00:13:08,370 Professor Russell Foster: subjects. It's often the only time of the day when 239 00:13:08,370 --> 00:13:11,580 Professor Russell Foster: you and a partner can actually talk about the stuff 240 00:13:11,580 --> 00:13:15,390 Professor Russell Foster: that needs to talk about, but it's actually sometimes rather 241 00:13:15,390 --> 00:13:18,450 Professor Russell Foster: stressful. And so I've certainly banned in our house any 242 00:13:18,450 --> 00:13:20,940 Professor Russell Foster: mention of family finances while we're lying in bed at the end of the day. 243 00:13:21,059 --> 00:13:22,770 Krutika Adatia: That's a good idea. 244 00:13:22,860 --> 00:13:25,740 Professor Russell Foster: Just find a time but don't have it before you 245 00:13:25,740 --> 00:13:28,979 Professor Russell Foster: go to sleep. So it is all about finding those techniques that 246 00:13:29,460 --> 00:13:32,550 Professor Russell Foster: allow you to relax and wind down. Many people use 247 00:13:32,550 --> 00:13:35,730 Professor Russell Foster: mindfulness, it doesn't work for everybody, but many people have 248 00:13:35,730 --> 00:13:40,410 Professor Russell Foster: found that. Also, a relaxing bath for example. It's experimenting 249 00:13:40,410 --> 00:13:42,929 Professor Russell Foster: and finding out what works for you. There will be 250 00:13:42,929 --> 00:13:45,390 Professor Russell Foster: a solution. I think many people feel that sleep is 251 00:13:45,390 --> 00:13:47,849 Professor Russell Foster: what you get, but actually as we've touched on, it's a 252 00:13:47,850 --> 00:13:50,460 Professor Russell Foster: very dynamic behavior and we do have a lot of 253 00:13:50,460 --> 00:13:53,610 Professor Russell Foster: control over it. And it's coming to terms with anxiety 254 00:13:53,610 --> 00:13:56,760 Professor Russell Foster: and stress will absolutely improve your sleep. 255 00:13:56,760 --> 00:13:59,700 Krutika Adatia: And I like the point that you've mentioned about avoiding 256 00:13:59,700 --> 00:14:02,910 Krutika Adatia: stressful conversations, maybe even watching stressful things. 257 00:14:03,089 --> 00:14:03,660 Professor Russell Foster: Absolutely. 258 00:14:03,660 --> 00:14:05,939 Krutika Adatia: Because I know when I watch a show that's quite 259 00:14:06,420 --> 00:14:10,949 Krutika Adatia: emotionally charged or it's a bit upsetting, it takes me 260 00:14:10,950 --> 00:14:12,719 Krutika Adatia: a little bit longer to go to sleep. 261 00:14:12,750 --> 00:14:15,780 Professor Russell Foster: Well, I have to say I've become a coward. I don't watch the evening news 262 00:14:15,809 --> 00:14:20,610 Professor Russell Foster: any longer. It's just too stressful. And so again, it's 263 00:14:20,850 --> 00:14:23,940 Professor Russell Foster: identifying the things that do make you anxious and avoiding them. 264 00:14:25,050 --> 00:14:28,500 Krutika Adatia: And it's probably a nice segue talking about screens and 265 00:14:28,500 --> 00:14:33,270 Krutika Adatia: watching things. What impact does screen time and certain types 266 00:14:33,270 --> 00:14:36,090 Krutika Adatia: of light exposure have on scene? 267 00:14:36,090 --> 00:14:38,430 Professor Russell Foster: I'm so glad you mentioned this because there's an awful 268 00:14:38,430 --> 00:14:41,490 Professor Russell Foster: lot of nonsense out there. It's another reason I wrote 269 00:14:41,490 --> 00:14:44,040 Professor Russell Foster: Lifetime. There's a famous experiment that came out from the 270 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:47,700 Professor Russell Foster: states which was looking at a Kindle before you go 271 00:14:47,700 --> 00:14:50,729 Professor Russell Foster: to sleep. And the press report says, looking at a 272 00:14:50,730 --> 00:14:54,359 Professor Russell Foster: Kindle, it was called a light emitting book before you 273 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:57,360 Professor Russell Foster: go to sleep will disrupt your sleep. Well, you need 274 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:00,150 Professor Russell Foster: to look at the experiment. What people were asked to 275 00:15:00,150 --> 00:15:03,060 Professor Russell Foster: do was look at their Kindle on its brightest light 276 00:15:03,060 --> 00:15:07,800 Professor Russell Foster: setting for four hours immediately before sleep on five consecutive 277 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:10,950 Professor Russell Foster: nights. And what that did at the end of five 278 00:15:10,950 --> 00:15:15,000 Professor Russell Foster: nights was delay sleep onset by nine minutes. It may 279 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:19,380 Professor Russell Foster: have been statistically significant, but biologically that's just meaningless. And 280 00:15:19,410 --> 00:15:22,590 Professor Russell Foster: what's so interesting is that in those experiments, people were 281 00:15:22,590 --> 00:15:25,860 Professor Russell Foster: kept under dim light prior to using the Kindle at 282 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:31,080 Professor Russell Foster: night. Another group repeated experiment essentially, but exposed people to 283 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:33,450 Professor Russell Foster: moderate levels of light during the day for about six 284 00:15:33,450 --> 00:15:36,510 Professor Russell Foster: and a half hours and any subtle effects were completely 285 00:15:36,510 --> 00:15:41,340 Professor Russell Foster: abolished. Showing why it's really important to get out during the 286 00:15:41,340 --> 00:15:44,610 Professor Russell Foster: middle of the day, get some bright light exposure because 287 00:15:44,610 --> 00:15:48,930 Professor Russell Foster: that will then desensitize the clock sensitivity to light in 288 00:15:48,930 --> 00:15:52,620 Professor Russell Foster: the evening and reduce the chances of wobbling and moving 289 00:15:52,620 --> 00:15:56,760 Professor Russell Foster: around the sleep wake cycle. So don't worry if a 290 00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:59,100 Professor Russell Foster: Kindle is what relaxes you and you can get off 291 00:15:59,100 --> 00:16:02,850 Professor Russell Foster: to sleep using one, do so. The thing to be 292 00:16:02,940 --> 00:16:06,720 Professor Russell Foster: very careful about though is the content. Where we do 293 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:10,230 Professor Russell Foster: have good data is that if you're using your iPhone or 294 00:16:10,230 --> 00:16:13,860 Professor Russell Foster: your tablet or whatever, and it can have an alerting 295 00:16:13,860 --> 00:16:16,770 Professor Russell Foster: effect. It's not the light, it's what it's doing to 296 00:16:16,770 --> 00:16:19,680 Professor Russell Foster: the brain to alert it. And again, it's all part 297 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:23,250 Professor Russell Foster: of that relaxation whereby you need to wind down and 298 00:16:23,250 --> 00:16:25,500 Professor Russell Foster: yes, sure use a Kindle, but it may be a 299 00:16:25,500 --> 00:16:28,980 Professor Russell Foster: few pages of Jane Austen, whatever, but it shouldn't be 300 00:16:29,340 --> 00:16:32,910 Professor Russell Foster: some sort of Xbox frightening video thing. 301 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:35,790 Krutika Adatia: That's really interesting. So ideally, I don't want to be 302 00:16:35,790 --> 00:16:37,171 Krutika Adatia: doom scrolling social media. 303 00:16:37,171 --> 00:16:40,320 Professor Russell Foster: No, no, I think that doom scrolling is exactly right, 304 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:42,990 Professor Russell Foster: and I think we all are tempted, but we mustn't 305 00:16:42,990 --> 00:16:44,731 Professor Russell Foster: because it's again, the great enemy of sleep. 306 00:16:44,731 --> 00:16:47,850 Krutika Adatia: I know we spoke a little bit about this earlier in terms of 307 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:50,670 Krutika Adatia: what we might be able to do to try and 308 00:16:50,670 --> 00:16:54,600 Krutika Adatia: get a better sleep, but is there a specific environmental 309 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:57,600 Krutika Adatia: setup that students might want to have in place before 310 00:16:57,600 --> 00:16:59,880 Krutika Adatia: they go to sleep to help them sleep better? 311 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:04,230 Professor Russell Foster: Certainly. I think that to make the bedroom or the 312 00:17:04,230 --> 00:17:08,130 Professor Russell Foster: place where you sleep a place of calm, and it's 313 00:17:08,130 --> 00:17:11,070 Professor Russell Foster: very difficult because many bedrooms are also offices and this 314 00:17:11,070 --> 00:17:13,650 Professor Russell Foster: of course is what happened during Covid. But if you 315 00:17:13,650 --> 00:17:19,020 Professor Russell Foster: can possibly take away the work space from the sleep 316 00:17:19,020 --> 00:17:23,369 Professor Russell Foster: space, then that's really good. Make sure there's street lights, 317 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:26,369 Professor Russell Foster: have good blackout curtains, make sure the bedroom isn't too 318 00:17:26,369 --> 00:17:29,700 Professor Russell Foster: warm because many bedrooms are overheated and if it's too 319 00:17:29,700 --> 00:17:32,490 Professor Russell Foster: hot, it's much more difficult to drop that core body 320 00:17:32,490 --> 00:17:35,970 Professor Russell Foster: temperature, which was one of the triggers that helps you 321 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:40,230 Professor Russell Foster: get off to sleep. So that's really important. I also 322 00:17:40,230 --> 00:17:41,910 Professor Russell Foster: think, and I think we Brits might be a bit 323 00:17:41,910 --> 00:17:44,820 Professor Russell Foster: cheap about this, is that we don't invest in decent 324 00:17:44,910 --> 00:17:48,150 Professor Russell Foster: mattresses and pillows and duvets. I think there's a huge 325 00:17:48,150 --> 00:17:51,210 Professor Russell Foster: resistance to do that, and yet we spent a third 326 00:17:51,210 --> 00:17:53,820 Professor Russell Foster: of our lives in bed, so why not have a 327 00:17:53,820 --> 00:17:57,450 Professor Russell Foster: decent pillow and a decent duvet? And so make sure 328 00:17:57,450 --> 00:18:01,260 Professor Russell Foster: that's right. Other people will define the sleeping space with 329 00:18:01,260 --> 00:18:04,290 Professor Russell Foster: a distinctive smell. It may be lavender, it may be 330 00:18:04,710 --> 00:18:09,720 Professor Russell Foster: whatever. The evidence that it actually works above placebo isn't 331 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:12,960 Professor Russell Foster: strong, but I think there's a psychology here. Which is 332 00:18:13,109 --> 00:18:15,810 Professor Russell Foster: you go into that space, you associate it with sleep, 333 00:18:16,050 --> 00:18:18,090 Professor Russell Foster: and it can then put you... It's part of that 334 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:21,900 Professor Russell Foster: adjustment, that winding down, " I'm now in the sleeping space." 335 00:18:21,990 --> 00:18:25,109 Professor Russell Foster: And that's reinforced by a distinctive smell. So those would 336 00:18:25,109 --> 00:18:27,869 Professor Russell Foster: be things for the bedroom. But it's also important that 337 00:18:27,869 --> 00:18:31,770 Professor Russell Foster: during the day you stop drinking coffee at around about 338 00:18:31,770 --> 00:18:34,710 Professor Russell Foster: two, three o'clock in the afternoon. Some people are really 339 00:18:34,710 --> 00:18:38,220 Professor Russell Foster: sensitive to coffee, and what you often find is this 340 00:18:38,220 --> 00:18:42,090 Professor Russell Foster: sort of cycle of stimulation and then sedation. So you've 341 00:18:42,090 --> 00:18:45,240 Professor Russell Foster: driven the working day with endless cups of coffee, so 342 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:48,510 Professor Russell Foster: you're wired, then you want to approach sleep time. You think, " 343 00:18:48,510 --> 00:18:50,790 Professor Russell Foster: My goodness, I'm fully awake. What am I going to 344 00:18:50,790 --> 00:18:54,149 Professor Russell Foster: do?" So you take a few slugs of glasses of 345 00:18:54,150 --> 00:18:58,410 Professor Russell Foster: wine or alcohol of some sort, or even worse, which 346 00:18:58,410 --> 00:19:02,310 Professor Russell Foster: are prescription drugs. And what they do is that they 347 00:19:02,310 --> 00:19:06,300 Professor Russell Foster: are sedatives. They do not provide a biological mimic for 348 00:19:06,300 --> 00:19:09,899 Professor Russell Foster: sleep. And in fact, alcohol can actually damage some of 349 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:15,359 Professor Russell Foster: the wiring, which is consolidating sleep and giving you an 350 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:19,409 Professor Russell Foster: improved ability to consolidate memory and actually find solutions to 351 00:19:19,410 --> 00:19:24,060 Professor Russell Foster: complex problems. So don't use sedatives either, other people's prescriptions 352 00:19:24,090 --> 00:19:27,720 Professor Russell Foster: or things like alcohol or indeed antihistamines. Which of course 353 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:32,369 Professor Russell Foster: some antihistamines, the drowsy ones, you often see people dosing 354 00:19:32,369 --> 00:19:36,119 Professor Russell Foster: up with those really trying not to try and allow 355 00:19:36,330 --> 00:19:39,690 Professor Russell Foster: natural sleep to take its course. So yes, I think 356 00:19:39,690 --> 00:19:40,859 Professor Russell Foster: that's really important. 357 00:19:41,490 --> 00:19:44,220 Krutika Adatia: You've mentioned some really interesting things and a couple of things 358 00:19:44,220 --> 00:19:48,690 Krutika Adatia: I resonate with. So you mentioned the duvet, the pillow, not underestimating 359 00:19:48,690 --> 00:19:51,119 Krutika Adatia: that, and I'm just thinking about it is helping me 360 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:54,030 Krutika Adatia: understand perhaps my own behavior and emotions that when I 361 00:19:54,030 --> 00:19:58,440 Krutika Adatia: do sometimes go to hotels or holidays and I'm not 362 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:00,450 Krutika Adatia: able to sleep, it's probably because the pillow is not 363 00:20:00,450 --> 00:20:03,090 Krutika Adatia: comfortable or I'm just used to my home bed. 364 00:20:03,090 --> 00:20:06,600 Professor Russell Foster: So we go back to smell. And so you might 365 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:09,720 Professor Russell Foster: want to take a small amount of your partner's aftershave 366 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:13,080 Professor Russell Foster: or perfume or the lavender that you've defined your bed 367 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:16,320 Professor Russell Foster: with a few drops on the pillow. Again, it provides 368 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:20,010 Professor Russell Foster: that familiarity which makes you feel you are at home 369 00:20:20,010 --> 00:20:20,731 Professor Russell Foster: and it'll be easier to sleep. 370 00:20:20,731 --> 00:20:24,270 Krutika Adatia: And the interesting point about coffee, I mean, I'm not a coffee drinker, but I 371 00:20:24,270 --> 00:20:27,480 Krutika Adatia: do drink tea, but just interesting to know and be 372 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:30,240 Krutika Adatia: mindful of when you have that last cup of coffee. 373 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:35,040 Professor Russell Foster: And tea. We've switched in our house to decaffeinated tea 374 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:37,890 Professor Russell Foster: for many, many years now, and I do think it makes 375 00:20:37,890 --> 00:20:40,919 Professor Russell Foster: a difference. One of the other problems that many people 376 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:45,359 Professor Russell Foster: face is a partner who snores and you need to 377 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:48,570 Professor Russell Foster: check that they don't have obstructive sleep apnea, which is 378 00:20:49,020 --> 00:20:51,900 Professor Russell Foster: the cessation, the stopping of breathing and then this sort 379 00:20:51,900 --> 00:20:55,080 Professor Russell Foster: of waking up sort of thing. That's dangerous and then 380 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:57,510 Professor Russell Foster: you need to see your GP. That's actually really important. 381 00:20:57,510 --> 00:21:00,240 Professor Russell Foster: But if it's just snoring, then what do you do 382 00:21:00,270 --> 00:21:03,000 Professor Russell Foster: about it? Well, there are earplugs, but many people can't 383 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:06,480 Professor Russell Foster: deal with that. It is absolutely no shame if you 384 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:09,570 Professor Russell Foster: can sleep in an alternative sleeping space to go there. 385 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:12,270 Professor Russell Foster: So many people say, " Oh, I couldn't possibly do that. 386 00:21:12,270 --> 00:21:14,010 Professor Russell Foster: It's the end of a relationship." And I say, " No, 387 00:21:14,010 --> 00:21:17,070 Professor Russell Foster: absolutely not." It's the beginning of a new relationship because 388 00:21:17,070 --> 00:21:18,990 Professor Russell Foster: you're going to get a decent night's sleep and then 389 00:21:18,990 --> 00:21:21,570 Professor Russell Foster: the time you'll have together will be more empathetic, you'll 390 00:21:21,570 --> 00:21:25,080 Professor Russell Foster: have more fun, you'll be less resentful. And so many 391 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:27,840 Professor Russell Foster: people, in fact, a 25- year- old came up to me 392 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:29,760 Professor Russell Foster: the other day and said, " How old do you have 393 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:31,410 Professor Russell Foster: to be before you can sleep in several rooms?" 394 00:21:31,410 --> 00:21:31,411 Krutika Adatia: Brilliant. 395 00:21:31,411 --> 00:21:37,320 Professor Russell Foster: Again, it's horses for courses. What works for you? 396 00:21:37,980 --> 00:21:41,159 Krutika Adatia: So Russell, you've obviously mentioned natural sleep and ways that 397 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:45,570 Krutika Adatia: we can think about meditative techniques to unwind. There's obviously 398 00:21:45,570 --> 00:21:49,470 Krutika Adatia: a lot out there in terms of medication or supplements 399 00:21:49,470 --> 00:21:51,990 Krutika Adatia: that we can take. What are your thoughts and views 400 00:21:51,990 --> 00:21:52,291 Krutika Adatia: about that? 401 00:21:52,291 --> 00:21:56,910 Professor Russell Foster: Well, of course sleeping tablets, ideally you shouldn't use them long- 402 00:21:56,910 --> 00:22:00,600 Professor Russell Foster: term. The occasional sleeping tablet, just to sort of correct 403 00:22:00,780 --> 00:22:03,840 Professor Russell Foster: the whole situation is fine. And I think most GPs 404 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:06,869 Professor Russell Foster: now will only give you five or seven days supply, 405 00:22:06,869 --> 00:22:09,480 Professor Russell Foster: and I think you shouldn't push it beyond. So avoid 406 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,389 Professor Russell Foster: sleeping tablets if you possibly can. A couple of other 407 00:22:12,540 --> 00:22:17,730 Professor Russell Foster: drugs. So one is magnesium, and I saw some recent 408 00:22:17,730 --> 00:22:22,200 Professor Russell Foster: data on magnesium, which looked really promising. I wouldn't say 409 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:25,859 Professor Russell Foster: that we've got the complete data yet, but magnesium may 410 00:22:25,859 --> 00:22:29,250 Professor Russell Foster: help some people get off the... It's very difficult because 411 00:22:29,250 --> 00:22:33,149 Professor Russell Foster: there's always a placebo effect with these issues. But anyway, 412 00:22:33,750 --> 00:22:35,909 Professor Russell Foster: magnesium may be something you want to try. I don't 413 00:22:35,910 --> 00:22:39,510 Professor Russell Foster: know of any adverse effects, but obviously you have to 414 00:22:39,510 --> 00:22:42,359 Professor Russell Foster: be careful. And if you do take magnesium and you're 415 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:45,150 Professor Russell Foster: on other medications, you must let your GP know so 416 00:22:45,150 --> 00:22:49,530 Professor Russell Foster: there's no possibility of a conflict. And I guess melatonin, 417 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:53,100 Professor Russell Foster: which is what many people are familiar with. Melatonin can 418 00:22:53,100 --> 00:22:56,460 Professor Russell Foster: be prescribed by your GP. And of course many of 419 00:22:56,460 --> 00:23:00,270 Professor Russell Foster: us passing through an airport see endless shelves full of 420 00:23:00,270 --> 00:23:05,280 Professor Russell Foster: melatonin. So what's the facts? Melatonin is emphatically not a 421 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:08,880 Professor Russell Foster: sleep hormone. There are people who don't produce any melatonin 422 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:11,399 Professor Russell Foster: because they're on beta blockers, for example, and their sleep 423 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:15,149 Professor Russell Foster: is barely affected. So what we do have is some 424 00:23:15,150 --> 00:23:18,869 Professor Russell Foster: data suggesting that if you take three milligrams of melatonin 425 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:21,900 Professor Russell Foster: prior to bed, it can reduce the time it takes 426 00:23:21,990 --> 00:23:25,200 Professor Russell Foster: to get to sleep, but it won't keep you asleep. 427 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,990 Professor Russell Foster: But it can reduce the time to get to sleep 428 00:23:27,990 --> 00:23:31,560 Professor Russell Foster: by about 10 minutes, maybe 20 minutes. And it doesn't 429 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:34,500 Professor Russell Foster: work for everybody. About 70% of people has some sort 430 00:23:34,500 --> 00:23:38,430 Professor Russell Foster: of effect ranging from 20 minutes too much, much lower. 431 00:23:38,820 --> 00:23:42,869 Professor Russell Foster: In the experiments that had been done, the most efficacious use 432 00:23:42,869 --> 00:23:46,140 Professor Russell Foster: of melatonin reduced sleep timing by I think 15 minutes 433 00:23:46,170 --> 00:23:48,330 Professor Russell Foster: or so. So it's not a big effect, but it 434 00:23:48,330 --> 00:23:51,210 Professor Russell Foster: might help as long as you don't use it routinely. 435 00:23:51,210 --> 00:23:54,270 Professor Russell Foster: The occasional use of melatonin, I mean, I tried it 436 00:23:54,270 --> 00:23:56,100 Professor Russell Foster: when I was flying to Australia. I found it didn't 437 00:23:56,100 --> 00:24:00,000 Professor Russell Foster: work at all for me. So again, occasional use, fine. 438 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:02,730 Professor Russell Foster: If it works for you again, fine. I suspect there's 439 00:24:02,730 --> 00:24:05,699 Professor Russell Foster: a big placebo effect. But those are the two sort 440 00:24:05,700 --> 00:24:07,949 Professor Russell Foster: of things on the market at the moment. Magnesium and 441 00:24:07,950 --> 00:24:10,379 Professor Russell Foster: melatonin. As I say, melatonin, you can't buy over the 442 00:24:10,380 --> 00:24:12,480 Professor Russell Foster: counter in the UK, but of course you can get 443 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:13,710 Professor Russell Foster: it all over the place. 444 00:24:13,890 --> 00:24:16,890 Krutika Adatia: That's great. And obviously you've given some great examples of 445 00:24:16,890 --> 00:24:21,629 Krutika Adatia: an environment we could create our sleep more, but there might be listeners or 446 00:24:21,630 --> 00:24:24,840 Krutika Adatia: students watching or listening to this thinking, " Oh God, I 447 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,600 Krutika Adatia: have irregular sleep pattern." And they might be having it 448 00:24:27,630 --> 00:24:30,899 Krutika Adatia: often. Could you just sort of spotlight, what kind of 449 00:24:30,900 --> 00:24:33,600 Krutika Adatia: impact is that having on their ability to learn? 450 00:24:33,780 --> 00:24:36,540 Professor Russell Foster: Well, it may have no impact. Again, there's lots of 451 00:24:36,540 --> 00:24:40,020 Professor Russell Foster: variation between individuals, but if you're waking up and you're 452 00:24:40,020 --> 00:24:43,350 Professor Russell Foster: not getting back to sleep, it's almost certainly, again, going 453 00:24:43,350 --> 00:24:45,330 Professor Russell Foster: back to the anxiety and the stress. And it may 454 00:24:45,330 --> 00:24:47,250 Professor Russell Foster: well be that you'll want to leave the sleeping space 455 00:24:47,609 --> 00:24:51,540 Professor Russell Foster: and go to somewhere else, keep the lights low, read 456 00:24:51,540 --> 00:24:55,770 Professor Russell Foster: something, listen to music that is relaxing, and then you 457 00:24:55,770 --> 00:24:58,379 Professor Russell Foster: will feel tired and then go back to sleep again. 458 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,340 Professor Russell Foster: The key thing is we do have a condition which 459 00:25:02,340 --> 00:25:05,190 Professor Russell Foster: is now called sleep anxiety, which is the terror of 460 00:25:05,190 --> 00:25:08,490 Professor Russell Foster: not falling to sleep or if you wake up, you 461 00:25:08,490 --> 00:25:11,700 Professor Russell Foster: can't get back to sleep. One trick incidentally is if 462 00:25:11,700 --> 00:25:14,639 Professor Russell Foster: you've got one of those illuminated digital alarms by the 463 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:17,939 Professor Russell Foster: bed, cover it up. Because if you wake up and 464 00:25:17,940 --> 00:25:19,679 Professor Russell Foster: you glance, you think, " Oh my goodness, I've only got 465 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,440 Professor Russell Foster: two hours before the alarm goes off." That completely stresses 466 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,020 Professor Russell Foster: you out and makes many people say, " Oh, well that's 467 00:25:25,020 --> 00:25:27,270 Professor Russell Foster: it. Might as well get up, drink coffee and do emails." 468 00:25:27,900 --> 00:25:31,530 Professor Russell Foster: And actually that two hours can be very valuable. So's 469 00:25:31,530 --> 00:25:34,170 Professor Russell Foster: it about staying calm and then going back to sleep 470 00:25:34,170 --> 00:25:38,340 Professor Russell Foster: again. It's the ability to use things like mindfulness, other 471 00:25:38,340 --> 00:25:41,340 Professor Russell Foster: relaxation techniques to get you back to sleep. 472 00:25:41,430 --> 00:25:44,100 Krutika Adatia: So Russell, what is the impact of lack of sleep 473 00:25:44,100 --> 00:25:46,050 Krutika Adatia: on cognition and brain health? 474 00:25:46,470 --> 00:25:50,790 Professor Russell Foster: In terms of one's emotional responses, you see that even 475 00:25:50,820 --> 00:25:53,970 Professor Russell Foster: a couple of nights of no sleep, one's mood fluctuates 476 00:25:54,060 --> 00:25:59,580 Professor Russell Foster: quite significantly. Irritability increases, anxiety, loss of empathy, the failure 477 00:25:59,580 --> 00:26:03,780 Professor Russell Foster: to pick up those social signals from friends and family. Risk- 478 00:26:03,780 --> 00:26:07,080 Professor Russell Foster: taking and impulsivity. This is extraordinary and there's some great studies 479 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:10,530 Professor Russell Foster: on this. And so, " Yes, I know I can get 480 00:26:10,530 --> 00:26:12,719 Professor Russell Foster: through the traffic light before it turns red." No, you 481 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,930 Professor Russell Foster: won't. And if you weren't tired, you'd never think of 482 00:26:15,930 --> 00:26:19,619 Professor Russell Foster: doing that sort of thing. Negative salience, and I think 483 00:26:19,619 --> 00:26:22,560 Professor Russell Foster: this is really important because some lovely studies have been 484 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:27,270 Professor Russell Foster: done, which shows that the tired brain remembers negative experiences 485 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,990 Professor Russell Foster: but forgets the positive ones. So one's whole world view 486 00:26:31,020 --> 00:26:35,100 Professor Russell Foster: is dominated by this negative salience. So that's a really 487 00:26:35,100 --> 00:26:39,030 Professor Russell Foster: important effect of not getting enough sleep. And of course 488 00:26:39,030 --> 00:26:42,869 Professor Russell Foster: we've talked about the use of stimulants and sedatives, but 489 00:26:42,900 --> 00:26:45,600 Professor Russell Foster: one has to be careful because that can lead into 490 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:50,070 Professor Russell Foster: sort of illegal drug use, and that's always a major 491 00:26:50,070 --> 00:26:54,330 Professor Russell Foster: worry. So that's sort of our emotional responses. Let's think 492 00:26:54,330 --> 00:26:58,380 Professor Russell Foster: about our cognitive responses. Well, overall one's ability to process 493 00:26:58,380 --> 00:27:02,970 Professor Russell Foster: information is affected. One area I think is really interesting 494 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,690 Professor Russell Foster: is the ability to multitask. So what we're constantly doing 495 00:27:06,690 --> 00:27:09,780 Professor Russell Foster: is being bombarded with information and we have to extract 496 00:27:09,780 --> 00:27:13,350 Professor Russell Foster: the salient bits and pay attention to that and ignore 497 00:27:13,350 --> 00:27:17,310 Professor Russell Foster: everything else. And when we're tired, that sort of focus 498 00:27:17,310 --> 00:27:20,580 Professor Russell Foster: of attention can be very much disrupted. Our ability to 499 00:27:20,730 --> 00:27:25,410 Professor Russell Foster: multitask, it goes down. We've talked about the memory consolidation, 500 00:27:25,410 --> 00:27:29,820 Professor Russell Foster: the processing of information, our communication skills, decision- making skills, 501 00:27:29,820 --> 00:27:34,320 Professor Russell Foster: our creativity, productivity, all of the stuff that makes us... 502 00:27:34,619 --> 00:27:37,080 Professor Russell Foster: Even our sense of humor. All the wonderful things that 503 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,050 Professor Russell Foster: make us human are very much affected by even short- 504 00:27:40,050 --> 00:27:42,420 Professor Russell Foster: term sleep disruption. Now, I don't want to make people 505 00:27:42,420 --> 00:27:45,270 Professor Russell Foster: more anxious, but I think that it's worth being sensitive 506 00:27:45,270 --> 00:27:47,910 Professor Russell Foster: to the fact that this is, if you find you're, 507 00:27:47,910 --> 00:27:52,920 Professor Russell Foster: for example, sliding towards depression, then not getting the sleep that you 508 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:56,880 Professor Russell Foster: need can actually nudge you down that path. Long- term 509 00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:00,090 Professor Russell Foster: sleep disruption, as you see in night shift workers is 510 00:28:00,090 --> 00:28:03,240 Professor Russell Foster: associated with a whole range of physiological issues, changes in 511 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:07,770 Professor Russell Foster: immune response as even in long- term night shift nurses, 512 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,590 Professor Russell Foster: higher rates of cancer. It's very interesting. The World Health 513 00:28:10,590 --> 00:28:14,369 Professor Russell Foster: Organization has now classified night shift work as a probable 514 00:28:14,369 --> 00:28:18,510 Professor Russell Foster: carcinogen because of the data. So it's really important. Also 515 00:28:18,510 --> 00:28:22,050 Professor Russell Foster: driving. So there's a study a few years ago showing 516 00:28:22,050 --> 00:28:25,410 Professor Russell Foster: that 57% of junior doctors had either had a crash 517 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,679 Professor Russell Foster: or a near miss on the drive home after the 518 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:31,500 Professor Russell Foster: night shift. Now, most of your students won't be doing 519 00:28:31,500 --> 00:28:34,020 Professor Russell Foster: night shift work, but it does illustrate the fact that 520 00:28:34,020 --> 00:28:37,440 Professor Russell Foster: if you're tired, you're going to experience these micro sleeps, 521 00:28:37,619 --> 00:28:40,230 Professor Russell Foster: which means you could fall asleep at the wheel. And 522 00:28:40,230 --> 00:28:43,200 Professor Russell Foster: I think if you're vulnerable to mental health issues, then 523 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,470 Professor Russell Foster: poor sleep can nudge you in that direction, can make 524 00:28:46,470 --> 00:28:47,010 Professor Russell Foster: it worse. 525 00:28:47,820 --> 00:28:51,330 Krutika Adatia: That's great. It seems like sleep is really integral to so much 526 00:28:51,330 --> 00:28:52,170 Krutika Adatia: of our being. 527 00:28:52,170 --> 00:28:55,320 Professor Russell Foster: It is, absolutely. It defines really the conscious state. 528 00:28:56,310 --> 00:28:58,500 Krutika Adatia: I sort of touched on this already, but what are 529 00:28:58,500 --> 00:29:00,720 Krutika Adatia: some of the practical tips that we might want to 530 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:04,560 Krutika Adatia: give our listeners and our students who are struggling to 531 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:06,870 Krutika Adatia: stay asleep and fall asleep? 532 00:29:07,110 --> 00:29:08,700 Professor Russell Foster: Well, there are lots of things we can do, as 533 00:29:08,700 --> 00:29:12,090 Professor Russell Foster: I say, and of course it's a matter of finding 534 00:29:12,090 --> 00:29:14,070 Professor Russell Foster: out what works for you. But on the rule of 535 00:29:14,070 --> 00:29:17,370 Professor Russell Foster: thumb, it's that morning light which sets the body clock, 536 00:29:17,370 --> 00:29:20,190 Professor Russell Foster: which means you can stabilize the sleep wake cycle. And 537 00:29:20,190 --> 00:29:24,690 Professor Russell Foster: so stick to a regime, ideally don't oversleep at the 538 00:29:24,690 --> 00:29:27,540 Professor Russell Foster: weekend. You can catch up a bit, but you never 539 00:29:27,540 --> 00:29:30,030 Professor Russell Foster: do completely. So it's far better to get a stable 540 00:29:30,030 --> 00:29:33,600 Professor Russell Foster: sleep wake across the seven days of the week rather 541 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,740 Professor Russell Foster: than massive oversleeping at the weekends. And of course, that oversleeping at the 542 00:29:37,740 --> 00:29:41,580 Professor Russell Foster: weekend will mean you miss the morning light, which means 543 00:29:41,580 --> 00:29:43,530 Professor Russell Foster: that you're not going to get that steady thing. So 544 00:29:43,530 --> 00:29:46,560 Professor Russell Foster: many students, for example, will have shortened sleep during the 545 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:50,250 Professor Russell Foster: week, massively oversleep at the weekends. They don't get the 546 00:29:50,250 --> 00:29:53,940 Professor Russell Foster: morning light, but they get afternoon and evening light that delays 547 00:29:53,940 --> 00:29:56,100 Professor Russell Foster: the clock. So it's more difficult to get up on 548 00:29:56,100 --> 00:29:59,700 Professor Russell Foster: that Monday. And so that's one thing. We've touched on 549 00:29:59,700 --> 00:30:02,100 Professor Russell Foster: make sure the bedroom isn't too warm, make sure you've 550 00:30:02,100 --> 00:30:05,820 Professor Russell Foster: got the right bedding. Try and make the sleeping space 551 00:30:06,390 --> 00:30:10,350 Professor Russell Foster: a place of haven and calm. Don't get stressed if 552 00:30:10,350 --> 00:30:13,350 Professor Russell Foster: you wake up. Chances are if you stay calm, you 553 00:30:13,350 --> 00:30:14,640 Professor Russell Foster: will get back to sleep again. 554 00:30:14,940 --> 00:30:17,460 Krutika Adatia: Thank you for all your useful insights and those golden 555 00:30:17,460 --> 00:30:19,410 Krutika Adatia: nuggets. I've learnt loads as well that I'm going to 556 00:30:19,410 --> 00:30:23,760 Krutika Adatia: take on board. But finally, three top tips from our 557 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:27,660 Krutika Adatia: conversation today that you want to make sure listeners think about. 558 00:30:28,140 --> 00:30:30,300 Professor Russell Foster: Well, I think that we need to embrace our sleep. 559 00:30:30,300 --> 00:30:33,090 Professor Russell Foster: We've got to absolutely realize, as I said right at 560 00:30:33,090 --> 00:30:36,420 Professor Russell Foster: the beginning, the quality of our sleep defines the quality 561 00:30:36,420 --> 00:30:39,120 Professor Russell Foster: of our waking state. It is not an indulgence, it's 562 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:42,960 Professor Russell Foster: a critical part of our biology. So much of our 563 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,110 Professor Russell Foster: ability to function depends upon it, so take it seriously. 564 00:30:46,410 --> 00:30:49,410 Professor Russell Foster: The second is most people don't have a sleep problem. 565 00:30:49,410 --> 00:30:53,460 Professor Russell Foster: They have an anxiety issue. So it's finding ways to 566 00:30:53,460 --> 00:30:59,001 Professor Russell Foster: wind down to relax and not to make sleep (inaudible) 567 00:30:59,001 --> 00:31:01,770 Professor Russell Foster: to become terrified and worried about sleep. And if 568 00:31:01,770 --> 00:31:04,170 Professor Russell Foster: you wake up, your chances are you will get back 569 00:31:04,170 --> 00:31:07,260 Professor Russell Foster: to sleep. So it's all about staying calm. And what 570 00:31:07,260 --> 00:31:11,490 Professor Russell Foster: were the third thing? I think it would be to 571 00:31:11,490 --> 00:31:14,850 Professor Russell Foster: be aware that there's an awful lot of variation in 572 00:31:14,850 --> 00:31:18,120 Professor Russell Foster: our sleep. It's a very dynamic part of our biology. One 573 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:21,360 Professor Russell Foster: size does not fit all, and so it's all about 574 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,300 Professor Russell Foster: defining what our individual needs are and then defending them. 575 00:31:24,510 --> 00:31:27,060 Professor Russell Foster: I mean, you struggle because you're a morning person, then 576 00:31:27,060 --> 00:31:30,510 Professor Russell Foster: you had to go out late on a Friday. And 577 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,120 Professor Russell Foster: sometimes you just have to be strong and say, " I'm 578 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:34,740 Professor Russell Foster: sorry, I'm going to be a bit of a party 579 00:31:34,740 --> 00:31:41,280 Professor Russell Foster: pooper." Obviously not too often, but it's about defining what's 580 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:41,521 Professor Russell Foster: good for you. 581 00:31:41,521 --> 00:31:47,460 Krutika Adatia: Thank you so much, Russell. That's been a great conversation. That's it from 582 00:31:47,460 --> 00:31:50,580 Krutika Adatia: this episode of On Your Marks. Thank you Russell for 583 00:31:50,580 --> 00:31:54,330 Krutika Adatia: chatting with me today. For more information about ACCA exams, 584 00:31:54,570 --> 00:32:00,180 Krutika Adatia: you can go to www. accaglobal.com forward/ exams. And to watch 585 00:32:00,180 --> 00:32:03,000 Krutika Adatia: the video version of this podcast, check out the link 586 00:32:03,060 --> 00:32:07,650 Krutika Adatia: in the show notes. I'm Krutika Adatia and this has been On 587 00:32:07,650 --> 00:32:11,250 Krutika Adatia: Your Marks. On Your Marks is a fresh air production 588 00:32:11,250 --> 00:32:14,910 Krutika Adatia: for ACCA. Its lead producer is Eva Higginbotham and its 589 00:32:14,910 --> 00:32:18,840 Krutika Adatia: executive producer is Annie Day. The videographer is Yohan Forbes, 590 00:32:18,900 --> 00:32:22,740 Krutika Adatia: and the sound engineer is Basil Oxtoby. See you next time.