S1: This is the Tortoise, the podcast that digs deep. Into
S1: the possibilities of Slo. My name is Brooke McAlary. I'm
S1: your host, and I'm joined by Ben McAlary.
S2: Gidday.
S3: How are you? Very well. How are you?
S1: I'm good. Yeah? Yeah, I'm good. I feel cozy.
S4: Well, it's really cozy in here.
S1: It's rainy outside like it's a dreary winter's day. We've
S1: got the fire on. I've got some tea sitting, sitting
S1: fireside in my armchair. Got nice little new microphone set up,
S1: so hopefully the sounds a bit better.
S4: I know, I know. Apologies for the sound people. They're
S4: just some feedback that we've got. It's too quiet, so
S4: I'm working on improving that. And it's a delicate balance
S4: between two quiet and an unedited version, which we're trying
S4: to go for, right? We're trying to be more like unedited.
S1: Well, we basically are. Unless one of us, like sneezes
S1: or coughs into the microphone. Sure. If you do that,
S1: there's something.
S5: Really.
S1: Wrong, something going wrong. But. So I feel good. How
S1: about you? Yeah.
S4: Good. I'm likewise enjoying a nice cuppa.
S1: A nice little cuppa.
S4: I'm looking out into a Yeah, a very wet and
S4: windy day. And so there's no better place to be
S4: then having a chat with you about mental load.
S1: The mental load? Yes. It's a. A topic that has
S1: been recurrent in conversations in this House. I feel like
S1: this year, you know. What we mean by the mental load,
S1: who is bearing it, why and how and what that
S1: looks and feels like. But also just more broadly, I
S1: feel like. The conversation around burnout, particularly in women. In
S1: a lot of articles that I'm reading, conversations that I'm
S1: listening to, podcasts that I'm listening to, everyone is just
S1: so tired and. This felt like the right time to
S1: have this conversation.
S4: To be honest with you, I didn't even know what
S4: mental load was in the context that we're talking about. Okay.
S4: Like very naive about mental load and it existing.
S1: Did I introduce you to that?
S5: You did.
S1: I'm sorry.
S5: You did.
S1: If it stressed you out, I'm sorry. No, no, no.
S4: It opened my eyes, I think, a little bit to
S4: what is mental load and probably highlights a lot of
S4: the stereotypes that will probably talk about in this discussion.
S4: But yeah, I'm coming in at. Yeah, very. Naive. Okay.
S5: Well, that's.
S1: It. I think that's not a bad place to have
S1: the conversation from because it means that you're not coming
S1: into it with your mental weapon chair. And neither am I. Exactly.
S5: That's good. Exactly.
S1: All right. Let's let's just jump in. So when I
S1: first said mental load to you in the context of
S1: that conversation, whenever that was, what did you picture like?
S1: What did you think I was saying?
S4: Yeah, first of all, I thought you were saying. And
S4: it explicitly relating to domestic non-paid work.
S1: Okay.
S4: That's immediately what I went to. Right. So cleaning bathrooms,
S4: cleaning kitchen, vacuuming, cleaning, you know, washing sheets on bit
S4: like all the. Normal domestic activities, plus one off domestic
S4: things that just have to happen around the house. You know,
S4: it could be paying bills and, you know, talking to
S4: a tradesman about something, you know, like all that sort
S4: of stuff. So that's immediately what I thought.
S1: And I think that's certainly part of it. But for me,
S1: and I think a more broadly accepted kind of definition
S1: of mental load is it takes into account all of
S1: that stuff, but it's the invisible. Uh, cognitive labor. So
S1: it's not even the doing necessarily of it. It's the thinking.
S5: About thinking about.
S4: It that needs.
S1: That it needs to be done and the planning for it.
S1: And the for me, it's also the work that I
S1: do on myself that allows me to plan for things
S1: and to be aware of things that need to be
S1: done and to be present for things like it goes deep. I,
S1: I would include all of the stuff that I do
S1: to help me become a better listener, a better parent,
S1: a better, you know, human being. I would include all
S1: of that in it, too, because I do that, not
S1: because Instagram tells me that I should, but because all
S1: of those things help. To create the kind of life that,
S1: you know, we want to live. And it. I'm not
S1: saying I begrudge it at all. That part of it anyway.
S1: I think it's important and valid and valuable, but it
S1: is it all adds up to that invisible cognitive labor.
S1: If that. Do you understand what I'm like? The difference?
S5: I do. I do.
S4: I think I.
S5: Do. What?
S4: So quick question. And it's going it's me as a.
S4: Male wanting to go to solution mode straight away. Do
S4: you have to have mental load? Why can't everything just
S4: be you think about it and you just either.
S1: Go on. I'm really interested in this.
S5: Do it or delegate it.
S4: Dee Dee, why can't you just go? Okay, when it
S4: first comes in your head instead of. Having a load.
S4: Why can't it just be an output? Why can't it
S4: just be like, that's what we're going to do? Or Ben.
S4: You go and do that or like.
S1: Do you think that would work?
S4: As part of the whip process? I think it probably could.
S1: Do you okay, that's fine. That's fine. I appreciate that.
S1: You and I have very different ways of looking at
S1: the world like you're a solutions person, 100% you to
S1: a fault. Sometimes it's like, let's talk about something, Let's
S1: fix it. Whereas maybe that's not what the conversation was
S1: about fixing it, but that's your default and that makes
S1: you really excellent at doing certain things because you're a fixer,
S1: you're a solutions person, you're a just get in and
S1: do what kind of person. I don't think that is
S1: applicable to a lot of the stuff that applies with
S1: mental load, with parenting, for example, because so much of
S1: it is you're thinking through the stage that the kids
S1: are at and you're worrying. Yes. But you're also, you know,
S1: trying to come to terms with changes and challenges and
S1: strengths and weaknesses that everyone in the family has. And
S1: you can't do anything with that. Right. That's not something
S1: that can be done with. It's something that forms the
S1: foundation on which you make decisions later because you have
S1: an understanding or you have a point of view that
S1: you have worked hard to establish. You can't that's not
S1: a that's not a doing thing.
S4: Again, I'm trying to distance my predisposition of thinking about
S4: it as domestic load. Can you give me an example
S4: of something that is not the domestic part of it? Sure.
S1: Yeah, because it applies to lots of things. I mean,
S1: mental load applies to work. It applies to relationships, not just,
S1: you know, romantic or familial relationships, all kind of relationships,
S1: you know, community stuff and then household stuff and all
S1: of that. So workplace, I was reading an article and
S1: they gave this example. I thought it was a good one.
S1: You've been asked by your boss to organize a birthday
S1: party for a colleague who was also a friend. You.
S1: It's not part of your job description. You're not going
S1: to get paid extra for it. But your colleague there,
S1: your friend and you can output you want to be
S1: able to celebrate your friend. Someone has to do it.
S1: So you're going to do it. You think about everything
S1: that involved, that is involved in that, starting at picking
S1: a date, making sure everyone's available for that date, and
S1: then looking at food, you know, dietary requirements of everyone
S1: making sure that you're across all of that, then you're
S1: looking at menu, then you're looking at buying them a gift.
S1: Then you're looking at giving them a speech because you
S1: want to make sure that they are celebrated because you
S1: value them. All of that is invisible. No one sees
S1: anything other than maybe the email asking about dietary requirements
S1: and dates. And meanwhile, you've given hours of your time
S1: and your energy to this thing. And that's. I'm not
S1: saying that it's a bad thing to organize a birthday
S1: party for a friend, but it's invisible mental load and
S1: it takes up space that is then taken up. Not
S1: by your work, not by your family stuff, not by
S1: household stuff, not by anything else. It's taking up space,
S1: you know? And I think that. The resentment side of
S1: it comes in when it's sort of like we're just
S1: expected to continue to expand ourselves. And I'm speaking generally
S1: here when I say ourselves. We just things just keep
S1: getting added in and slotted in and slotted in and
S1: like we can't go beyond capacity. So we start to
S1: feel stretched and we start to feel angry and we
S1: start to feel resentful. And I think the resentment side
S1: of it comes in when it is because it is
S1: invisible and it is undervalued, all of that kind of
S1: cognitive load. Does that. Yeah. So seeing that, can you
S1: see what I what the difference is?
S5: A little bit.
S4: A little bit? Yeah.
S1: So thinking about, okay, I know you don't want to
S1: just think about it domestically, but it's for me. Another
S1: example would be all of the tiny tasks that have
S1: to happen around the house that quite literally, no one
S1: else would think about.
S5: Let's talk about those tasks.
S4: Those tiny tasks.
S5: Okay?
S1: Have you ever thought about having to clean the side
S1: of the. Kick boards in the kitchen.
S4: No, but definitely the. Drawer drawers and cupboards.
S1: Okay, so you've thought about it.
S4: And have done it on.
S5: Occasion. Okay.
S1: Cleaning of windows, airing of linens, seasonally washing curtains, all
S1: of that kind of stuff. That and this. Before we
S1: go on any further, I don't want it to sound
S1: like I am making a list of things that I
S1: do and you don't, but I'm trying to paint a
S1: picture of the fact that this stuff takes up head space, right?
S1: Like the kids wardrobes. First weekend of every school holidays,
S1: I go through their wardrobes and make sure their clothes
S1: still fit them. I find out what else they need.
S1: We make sure we go do the shopping so that
S1: they've got shoes that fit and they've got pants that
S1: don't don't come up to their cars like that kind
S1: of stuff. It takes up space, you know? And in
S1: our relationship, you work far more than I do in
S1: terms of paid work. Your hours are far longer and
S1: you're paid far, far better than I ever have been.
S1: So it is what it is, Right? But it's. It's relentless.
S1: And I think it's invisible and it's undervalued just in general.
S1: And again, this is not like a we're talking.
S4: We're also we're hetero couple. We have no idea whether
S4: this is even like a gender. Is it a gender thing.
S1: I think.
S5: Or is it.
S4: Based on like paid employment? Everything runs off that.
S1: Yeah, I don't I don't know. All I know is
S1: that there have been studies done recently that show that
S1: in hetero relationships women are typically doing two plus hours
S1: a day more domestic. Regardless of their work, their paid
S1: work load and the mental load is more on top
S1: of that. Again, that's in hetero relationship. So I think
S1: that there is a gender role there and I think
S1: it's absorbed from how we're brought up. It's absorbed through
S1: societal messages. I found a quote on line and I
S1: don't know who said it because it's one of those
S1: ones that does the rounds of like Instagram and stuff
S1: over time and you can never tell who's actually. Said
S1: it first.
S5: Yeah.
S1: But it kind of resonated with me. So there is
S1: an entire generation of women who are drowning because they
S1: were raised with traditional gender roles while being empowered to
S1: be independent. These women still take on the majority of
S1: House duties while killing it in the workplace, and they're tired.
S4: It's like, that's sandwich generation, right?
S1: Yeah. Going back to last episode.
S4: Last theme, it's. That's a great case study for the
S4: sandwich generation. Yeah.
S1: So I do think that gender roles do play a
S1: part in it, but I don't think it's only that.
S1: I think there's definitely personality. You know, there's people who
S1: have perfectionistic tendencies versus people who don't. You know, people
S1: who are details oriented versus people who aren't. People who
S1: are probably more naturally wired to be okay with things
S1: being just like fine rather than awesome versus people who aren't.
S1: I think personality definitely plays a part in it.
S4: I think it's a question for me. Of value.
S5: Right?
S4: So value and. Societies. Societies placed a value within that
S4: sort of mental load.
S1: I don't think it's valued at all.
S5: Right? Yeah.
S1: And I think that's actually where the issue is.
S5: That's the issue.
S4: Because I worked for an insurance company back in the
S4: day that released a product called Million Dollar Woman. And
S4: it was life insurance for someone that was not in
S4: the paid workforce or like part time or casual, that
S4: wouldn't have. A big enough chunk of life insurance as
S4: part of their superannuation because if you're part time, you're
S4: you're supers much less and superannuation is pension, you know,
S4: for those that are not in Australia.
S5: Yeah.
S4: And that product failed miserably because of society's. Was two
S4: bit like it was two out there. It was two
S4: to foreign. Do you mean like it was two? What
S4: does it mean? Like how do how does this work?
S4: Or this sort of stuff? They just couldn't get their
S4: heads around it.
S1: I think it's fascinating because I remember when that came
S1: out and I was deep in the throes of like
S1: two young kids, like maybe a one year old and
S1: a baby.
S5: You were like the.
S4: Perfect target market for.
S1: It. Yeah. And I felt seen by that because the
S1: kind of, you know, the messaging was if something was
S1: to happen to this partner in a relationship, everything would
S1: grind to a halt because of all of the unpaid
S1: work that happens in the home through them and because
S1: of them. And that that felt kind of good to
S1: me as a mum at that stage because I'm like, finally, yes, 100%.
S1: If if I wasn't able to do what I do.
S1: We're stuffed, you know, And it's it's sad to me
S1: that society like it was too big and.
S5: Ask too big of us for people.
S1: To to turn around and put a monetary value on
S1: what is typically a woman's role in a hetero relationship
S1: of all of these household tasks. And they're like, Well,
S1: I'm not doing that because then we have to rethink everything.
S1: If we rethink that, if we start putting a dollar
S1: value on that kind of work, then that reshapes the
S1: entirety of the way that society is. You know. Formed
S1: and the things that we value and the things that
S1: we champion. And no one was ready for that. And
S1: I don't think people are now. I really don't. I
S1: think no, I think that the conversation is shifting and
S1: I think the people for whom it actually applies are
S1: talking way more openly about it. But I don't see
S1: any solutions being so it's still the solution is not societal,
S1: it's not cultural. We're making it individual. We're saying to
S1: that person in the in the home, in the relationship,
S1: we're saying you need to come up with ways of.
S1: Better managing this. And I don't I don't know what
S1: the answer is, but I just think it's really interesting that,
S1: you know, someone tried a product, someone try to, you know,
S1: think a thing, a solution. No one took it, No one.
S1: And now ten years later, we're still having the conversation.
S1: I'd argue that it's probably more prevalent. Burnout is more prevalent.
S1: People are doing it far tougher now. Than they were
S1: even ten years ago. And, you know, we're still making
S1: the the problem an individual one.
S4: We have come a long way just in terms of
S4: domestic load and unpaid work within the household because ten years,
S4: ten plus years ago. Women were doing. And I'm talking
S4: along gender gender lines here. Yeah, like double if not triple.
S4: The figures are now moving to a more equality.
S5: There, and I think.
S1: That is. The case in Australia particularly. I have read
S1: that specifically Australian households have it's evened up, but again
S1: that's with the domestic load. They drew a line between
S1: that and the mental load and it's still not by
S1: any stretch even or coming to be even. Yeah, I think.
S1: That That's a that's a positive thing.
S5: It is.
S4: It's definitely a positive. Yeah.
S1: But I think going back to your question of value.
S1: I know for me that's something I have struggled with
S1: our entire married life is. The fact that. And this
S1: is partly tied to the work that I do as
S1: a writer, chronically undervalued. I mean, I don't think I've
S1: had a year as a writer where I've made anywhere
S1: near minimum wage, um, except one when the year after
S1: Slow came out. That was the only year I think
S1: that I made beyond a minimum wage. So that has
S1: always played into it too. And then to have on
S1: top of that, what I consider work, domestic work, family work,
S1: you know, unpaid work. It's not only invisible, but it's
S1: also undervalued. And that has messed with my sense of esteem,
S1: my confidence, my sense of my ability to provide value
S1: in other capacities. And I think that that's not unusual
S1: for people who have, you know, had a similar kind
S1: of trajectory. It's. And I don't necessarily think that the
S1: answer is. Kind of enforcing everyone to go back to
S1: work full time. Across the board either. You know, I
S1: just think that we need to shift our sense of
S1: what we do and don't value in society in terms
S1: of the energy and effort that goes into it. Yeah.
S1: And it's interesting, though, to view all of this through
S1: the lens of feminism, too, because. To me, feminism is
S1: simply about equality. That's all it's about the belief that
S1: everyone should be treated equally. Then full stop. It's not scary.
S1: It's not crazy. It's just very plain and simple. So
S1: that also includes people having the choice to. You know,
S1: to live the way they wanted to live and they
S1: want to live. And that works for them and their household,
S1: their family, their dynamic. So even talking about. All the
S1: different options can sometimes feel like I'm being untrue to
S1: that too. You know, it's a really I find it
S1: really it's a really tricky. Thing to talk about without
S1: feeling like I'm doing someone a disservice, I suppose. Does
S1: that make sense? Yeah, it.
S4: Does, actually.
S5: It really does.
S1: It's not my intention at all. It's a really. Yeah,
S1: it's the patriarchy, right? Like that's this is a patriarchal society.
S1: And it's having to unpack all of that and all
S1: the stuff that I learned as a kid and, you know,
S1: all of the things that I saw role modeled and
S1: continue to say, role model. I do think it would
S1: be an interesting thing. I don't know how you could
S1: ever do it, but like compare the pressures that, you know, women,
S1: particularly of previous generations, felt versus the pressures that women
S1: of our generation's generation feel. Because their role models were different.
S1: Their gender roles were different. The expectations were different. But
S1: also I just think that like social media and the
S1: Internet in general has opened us up to this entire
S1: world of possibility and expectation and standards that previous generations
S1: didn't have to operate underneath. And we don't have to,
S1: I suppose. But it's very hard not to. So it's
S1: like what used to be good enough is no longer
S1: good enough. It's going to be great.
S4: It's got to be great. And, you know, if you're.
S4: Part time or casual or, you know, not in employment.
S4: You should have a side hustle as well. Right?
S5: Exactly. So it's.
S4: It's just it's always adding on.
S1: And it's adding. Yes. It's never taking away. Yeah.
S6: Yeah.
S1: Yeah, it's very additive the pressures that people are under.
S1: So it's like, okay, what can we take away? How
S1: can we lessen the load? I know. For me. Any
S1: something I've had to learn to do is a recognize
S1: my resentments because they're very real. And very human. I
S1: think everyone goes through periods of resentment, but slowing down
S1: long enough to recognize them. And again, this is what
S1: I was sort of getting at the mental load, the
S1: work of journaling, of practicing self-awareness, of reflecting, of taking
S1: myself away from social media so I can actually figure
S1: out what my definition of success is, what my definition of,
S1: you know, showing up for my family. Like, kind of
S1: that's all work. It takes time and effort to simplify
S1: the messaging and doing all of that then allows me.
S1: To tap into how I'm feeling. And I've found over
S1: the years, on and off how I'm feeling is resentful.
S1: So you get to that point and then it's a
S1: matter of communicating it and then, you know. That's an
S1: uncomfortable conversation to have when we're both partners in the
S1: relationship and we work really hard to see each other
S1: as part of the same team, and often we'll say
S1: that to each other to say, Hey, I'm feeling a
S1: bit resentful. Doesn't feel great. But it's important because nothing
S1: changes unless we go there. What I feel like. That's
S1: not something that you. Would. Actively do. Unless. I don't know.
S1: Is it?
S5: Probably not. Yeah.
S4: Yeah, probably not. I just keep on thinking again to, like,
S4: solution mode. Like this is. This is how we often say,
S4: you and I. I'd love to live like a week
S4: in your shoes. Like, what's it like for you? Yeah.
S4: And we've made this observation, particularly when you've been sick.
S4: And I'm like, I just wish I could, like, feel
S4: what you're feeling and understand. Just understand it more. I
S4: do understand it. I don't think you do until you
S4: just like living it.
S5: Yeah.
S4: But wouldn't it be It would just be fascinating to
S4: find out. The toll that mental these mental load and
S4: this you know, this whole thing being seen as being
S4: undervalued and societal expectation like all that sort of combined.
S4: Into a fitness tracker.
S5: Bear with.
S4: Me that you could look at and it spits out
S4: this like chart over the day and saying like and
S4: it measures the mental load as like a strain like this.
S5: Is the equivalent.
S4: Of. A board presentation. Sure. Or like I would love
S4: a comparison.
S5: Like if you could map.
S4: Never going to happen.
S1: But if you could map the cognitive output.
S5: That's.
S4: That. That to me would then I would. You know,
S4: there's only so much you can empathize with someone in
S4: these situations without actually living through it. So that would
S4: then just crystallize it so much more. And you take
S4: into consideration relative strain of individuals and and. You know,
S4: you had to compare it then.
S5: Okay.
S1: So I agree with you. That would be fascinating.
S4: Fascinating. Would that be?
S1: So then let's say that you were able to do that, right?
S1: And then you could put a dollar value on it. Correct.
S4: Any metric then you would be able to then.
S5: Yeah, but.
S1: What I'm saying is if you you know, you were
S1: able to track your cognitive output versus my cognitive output
S1: and I don't say versus in like a combative way, but,
S1: you know. Okay. Uh, and then like dollar for. Output. Output.
S1: You know, metric.
S5: Yeah.
S1: And the difference in that would be. I'm telling you. Staggering.
S1: I have no doubt, no doubt that your mind is
S1: just as full as mine. Day to day, hour to hour,
S1: I have no doubt. And I'm not. This is never
S1: about comparing that and saying someone is doing it harder
S1: than the other because I take on a lot of
S1: the mental load and the domestic load because as I said,
S1: your workload is far higher than mine at the moment.
S1: That ebbs and flows and we ebb and flow. But currently,
S1: and probably this year, it's fair to say that that's
S1: the case. So let's say both as hardworking, you know,
S1: conscientious people that we are we're both showing up equal ish. Yeah.
S1: Mentally in our various roles. And I believe that. You're
S1: getting paid for it. I'm not. You know, and that's.
S1: I wish that that wasn't the metric I kept coming
S1: back to. I really do, because I believe in a
S1: world where that isn't. That shouldn't be the the measure
S1: of value. But as it stands at the moment, it
S1: kind of is. You get paid for the work that
S1: you do. I get paid for some of the work
S1: that I do, but the stuff that we're talking about now, like.
S1: The extra, the invisible, the unrecognized. No one pays you
S1: for it. I'm not saying I want to be, but
S1: it's value. That's how we show value. Right?
S4: Should there be, then, as part of someone's job description?
S4: It's recognizing like it's a tick like if you go
S4: for a job I. What is your marital status? Um,
S4: just bear with me. You know, Do you watch your.
S4: Do you have kids and and find out some really
S4: quite basic information about your living like.
S5: Just experience and circumstance.
S4: Right? So then. You as an employee don't get paid.
S4: You as a family get paid because that then. Includes
S4: things like just in a job description. It'll just have,
S4: you know, key responsibilities and set criteria and all that
S4: sort of stuff. And it has like lists out all
S4: the things based on that job, but it also includes.
S1: You don't even. You're not even buying what you're saying.
S5: Go on.
S4: I'm trying to. Blue sky thinking or blue ocean thinking is,
S4: you know, the includes a payment as part of your salary. No,
S4: that's not right.
S5: I understand what you're saying.
S4: It includes metrics like will be away from home, will
S4: be you know, we'll will not be able to do
S4: anything over eight hours per day. Like like, it's just
S4: it's trying to put the emphasis less on, okay, you
S4: come and work and you, you do the job. But
S4: there's also a lot going behind the scenes for you
S4: to be able to do the job right. And so
S4: it's acknowledging the fact that, yeah, you won't be able
S4: to drop your kids off from school to school from
S4: pick them up from school. You won't be able to
S4: clean the bathroom like it's. I'm not sure I need
S4: to think about it a little bit more, but there's
S4: there's something in there that it's not. Legally, yes. The
S4: contract is between an employee, a single person, but it
S4: also recognizes. The great work that has to happen for
S4: that employee to be able to do their job.
S1: Yeah. Right. Okay. I mean, I see what you're saying.
S4: So it's not me getting paid as an employee? Yep.
S4: It's McAlary getting.
S5: Paid, right?
S4: It's the McAlary family.
S1: I see some significant gaps in that plan.
S5: But a huge gap.
S1: I.
S4: I'm just trying to change, like, the conversation around what
S4: it is to be valued.
S5: Yes. Okay.
S4: We're not going to be able to like the government's
S4: not going to come out and say everyone will get
S4: a minimum wage.
S1: Right. So that's what I was going to say. What
S1: you're basically. Advocating for there is universal basic income.
S5: Well.
S4: It's sort of like that, but it's not really it's
S4: still it's not called that. It's just building to your
S4: employee contract. Employment contract. Then there'll be issues around. Companies like,
S4: you know.
S1: Well, yeah, it's not a company's job to, you know,
S1: to do that.
S5: All right.
S4: Huge, huge holes.
S5: Huge.
S1: Appreciate. It's a big swing. I do appreciate the big swing.
S4: Big swing. No ding.
S7: You're right.
S1: I think going back, though, to what I was saying
S1: about communication. We've had conversations. Where? It's mostly been me
S1: saying we need to renegotiate. Recalibrate what? The shared load
S1: looks like. I don't think that you've brought that up
S1: yourself before. Don't think so. I'm not being a smart Alec.
S1: I actually don't think you have. But anyway, it's the
S1: conversations that we have had. How? Like, how do you.
S1: How do you feel when those conversations happen? Because I
S1: try very hard for it to never sound like a.
S1: Finger pointing sort of exercise or a. You know, a
S1: blaming kind of exercise. Yeah.
S4: It's hard not to feel like a lazy B, not.
S4: Why can't I just think of that myself and do it?
S4: You know what I mean? Like, a bit ashamed, lazy, ashamed.
S4: And three would be. But I don't want to do that.
S1: I thought you were going to say defensive, but. All right.
S1: You went with honest. I like it.
S5: I don't want.
S4: To clean the windows.
S1: Sure, no one does. This is the point. Yeah, maybe
S1: someone does. I apologize. You know what would.
S4: You know for me personally, what would make it better?
S1: The conversation around it. Yeah.
S5: Is.
S4: Every September we clean the windows.
S5: Okay. Do what.
S4: I mean. And then every December, we clean the outside
S4: of the house, which is kind of like what we
S4: do now.
S5: Is actually what we.
S4: Do. And that's in the back of my brain. And
S4: every November, we stain the deck when it's not pouring.
S5: Okay, so that's interesting.
S4: That's in the back of my head is. I know that.
S4: And that's a that's mental load, right? That's an example
S4: of mental load.
S5: It is.
S1: And it's interesting because I, I will have rhythms that
S1: I have created for myself. Uh, that can be weekly.
S1: So that includes things like household tasks that just need
S1: to be done roughly every week and then some that
S1: are same. I know.
S5: I know. I know.
S1: I know you know that. But there are other ones
S1: that I have that I've never communicated to.
S4: Seasonal yearly.
S1: Yeah. And I've never communicated them to you. So that's
S1: on me. I mean, that's on me for not. Talking
S1: about it and sort of and because I'm much the same,
S1: I find attaching tasks to set periods of time really helpful.
S1: And it just means that you don't have to keep
S1: doing This is a light bulb moment. You don't have
S1: to keep doing the mental work of figuring out when
S1: to do these things because we know on Thursdays I
S1: do this and then the Fridays I do that.
S4: It's part of the.
S1: And also, you know, exactly being, being kind of flexible
S1: with it rather than being routine and strict and like
S1: stuck to very specific timeframes. You can be flexible with
S1: it to a certain extent, which allows you for the,
S1: you know, the ebbs and flows of life.
S5: Mm.
S1: So that's, that's down to communication. That's not even down
S1: to doing the, the work of it because that's sort
S1: of almost done. But you know, maybe once a year
S1: or once every six months we sit down, we.
S4: You know, you know.
S5: What, we talk about.
S1: The next two quarters, what kind of tasks are attached
S1: to it, why we may or may not be able
S1: to do it, how we can shift things around.
S4: Yeah. What what's hard is when you keep it to
S4: yourself and then just be like, Oh, I'm the only
S4: one that does.
S5: This.
S4: And just come out with it. And I'm like, I
S4: don't even know.
S5: That that was.
S4: Part of like your. Thought processes.
S1: Because I think at some point I just get tired
S1: of thinking about it. So I don't want to.
S4: So communicate.
S5: That, but I don't.
S1: I've already done the thinking about it. I don't want
S1: to keep talking about it. Do you know what I mean?
S1: Like talking about it is another version of thinking about it.
S1: I'm not saying that that's correct.
S4: Well, don't talk about it. Just do it, then.
S5: Hmm.
S4: So that's the that's almost the because I have those situations, too,
S4: where I'm. I'm thinking about it. And instead of communicating
S4: it with you, I'll just go and do it.
S1: Oh, no doubt. Yeah.
S5: No doubt.
S4: Because it's it's too hard to. It's not too hard.
S4: One might be.
S1: You don't want to double dip. And that's what it
S1: feels like.
S4: I don't want a double dare. I may as well
S4: just go and do it. So it'll be just done. Yep. Pragmatic.
S4: But not necessarily healthy.
S1: No, I think it's a little bit passive aggressive.
S4: You do it all the time. Yes. Okay. Some things
S4: like the lawns, like I'm just doing the lawns. It's
S4: an unwritten law that that's what I will do.
S1: It's an unwritten law. Okay. I like mowing the lawns.
S1: But you do them. I like doing it, but you
S1: actually do it. So that's a difference as well. But what? Sorry.
S1: When I was saying it's an unwritten law, it's like,
S1: why is it an unwritten law? Because that's what you
S1: grew up doing.
S5: Do you know we never.
S4: Communicate when I'm going to do the lawns. Do it,
S4: do we? Yep. No, we do not.
S1: We don't like schedule it. But you say to me,
S1: I'm going to try and do the lawns on Friday
S1: afternoon or I'm going to do them on Saturday after
S1: football or whatever. Okay. Yeah, but even that, it's.
S4: So hard not to get defensive about some of this stuff.
S1: But it's also I think it's also important to have,
S1: you know, open conversation like none of this is fresh.
S1: We're not we're not rehashing this stuff. We're not hashing
S1: this stuff out for the first time, you know, on
S1: a podcast because that would be weird. This is stuff
S1: that we have spoken about at length. And even still,
S1: it can be tough to not feel called out. So.
S1: I think you and I have gone to great lengths
S1: over the last few years, particularly to. Do a better
S1: job of communicating to do a better job of sharing
S1: the mental load. You picked up a lot when my
S1: dad was unwell and when my health tanked. So there
S1: was a lot that you picked up that I just
S1: could not do. And this year has been a matter
S1: of trying to recalibrate that to to a point that's
S1: more fair. I think. And that's something that we have
S1: both had to want to do in order to have
S1: the conversations in order to make any change. I think
S1: the tricky thing is if someone's in a relationship with
S1: another person who has got the better end of the deal.
S1: They have to want to change as well. But that's tricky, right?
S1: When it behooves someone to continue the way they are
S1: while the other person is really struggling. Like, I think
S1: that that's hard as well. It's sort of having multiple
S1: conversations over time.
S4: Oh, that's that's.
S5: The way to do it.
S1: It's not a one and done.
S5: It's not a.
S4: Screaming.
S5: No.
S4: It's a. Very well thought out. Communication over a period
S4: of time.
S1: And let's say this is coming from a person who
S1: is carrying the majority of the mental load. I'm not
S1: talking about us at the moment, like specifically. That just
S1: adds to the mental load for them to have to
S1: think through. And you just said a really well thought
S1: out conversation where it doesn't feel like you're attacking. Like
S1: that is not easy to do when you are feeling resentful, exhausted,
S1: burnt out, taken for granted. To then add on top
S1: of that. Now you must have this calm, kind, compassionate
S1: conversation with your partner. And if they're going to meet you,
S1: they're wonderful. But if they're going to feel called out
S1: and react, not great, like that's just something else for
S1: that person to carry. And I completely understand why people
S1: are like, you know what? I'm just going to do it.
S1: It's just easier because I'm not going to think about
S1: this as well as having to think about this and
S1: this and this and this. It's really tricky. But I
S1: think that for us at least, it's been like. Gradual. Um,
S1: well intentioned conversation.
S4: The the breakthrough for me back in the day and
S4: I'm talking ten plus years ago on the start during
S4: the start of your slow living journey was when you
S4: were saying, why are we so busy doing like. Cleaning
S4: and spending our weekends doing all this stuff only to
S4: then Sunday afternoon, turn around and your week starts again.
S4: And it was you getting us into this rhythm where
S4: we would do things. And we do them on a
S4: regular occurrence rather than like a big. Top to tail.
S5: You have.
S4: To clean the bathroom like once a month. It was
S4: every week cleaning, but concentrating on one. I don't know.
S4: I don't even remember what it was. Right? But it
S4: then saved us. It gave us so much more time
S4: to be able to do the things we want to
S4: do on the weekend. And that for me, was the
S4: big breakthrough. So it was you highlighting the benefits. This
S4: is how much better our life can be if we
S4: do this. And then doing the planning and then working
S4: out the routine and who does what. And that was
S4: the big thing. So it's highlighting the benefits rather than.
S4: Anything else?
S5: Yeah. Okay.
S1: That's interesting that you like that. It went that far back.
S5: Yeah, I.
S4: Distinctly remember it.
S1: So it's a it's a moving thing. Yeah. And that's
S1: but that's as it should be, I think, because. You know,
S1: mental load for both of us looked different ten years
S1: ago than it does now. So of course, you need
S1: to revisit and recalibrate. It's interesting. Lots of food for
S1: thought here, honey. As you just made a face looking
S1: at how long we've been talking so.
S5: Far, believe how quickly that went.
S1: Well, I think it's a good that's a kind of
S1: a good point to. Shift into the next part of
S1: the podcast where we usually reflect on something we've read
S1: or listen to or found ourselves thinking about over the
S1: last month. And this actually dovetails really nicely into a
S1: post from the Tortoise. A couple of weeks ago called
S1: Happiness is for Losers. Which I struggled with that that headline,
S1: it felt a little negative. But I promise you that
S1: it's a really uplifting post, really just talking about the
S1: difference between happiness and contentment and. Why I think there
S1: is ironically happiness to be found when we let go
S1: of the relentless need to be better, to strive, to
S1: excel and exceed expectations. To be.
S5: Perfect. Yeah.
S1: So. You know, I think that that. That does sort
S1: of relate a lot to the conversation we've been having
S1: about mental load, not because that will solve anything, but
S1: because it might help us to recalibrate again. What? Our
S1: expectations are of ourselves with our homes, of what balance
S1: looks like, of what success looks like, of what, you know,
S1: success in loads of different areas of life look like
S1: to just. Embrace the idea of being okay with being okay.
S5: To be fine?
S1: Yeah, to be just fine.
S4: This was huge for you. Ten years ago, you were 100%
S4: a perfectionist. That was your personal. You were absolute perfectionist.
S4: And I'm not a perfectionist. I'm a. People pleaser.
S1: Yeah.
S4: So that's a bad combo for us.
S5: Yeah.
S4: Because I'm always striving to be. Perfect. And I'm not perfect.
S5: Yeah.
S1: Okay. At the risk of derailing our conversation. That's interesting,
S1: isn't it?
S5: I just. I just.
S4: Noticed that. I just realized that. So you were looking
S4: perfect for perfection in someone that was never going to
S4: be perfect?
S1: I know perfection isn't for me. It's not me looking
S1: at you for, like, looking for perfection in you.
S5: Damn it.
S1: Sorry. I mean, if I was looking, that's what I
S1: would find, obviously. But. No. God, it's. It's very much
S1: a person. Like, it's. It's the lens through which I
S1: view my efforts of. Trying to make everything perfect, like
S1: the things that I do, the things that I say,
S1: the things that I write, the way I show up
S1: need to be perfect. That's something that I've been working
S1: on relentlessly.
S5: And you've done like.
S4: It's incredible the amount of work you've done.
S5: On that.
S1: Yeah, but I think that. There is something really powerful
S1: there for all of us in recognizing. That what I
S1: think what we think we're chasing always is happiness. But
S1: by embracing contentment, you know, being okay with things as
S1: they are, whether they are great or not, we actually
S1: open ourselves up for more happiness because you find delight
S1: in whatever is in front of you rather than constantly
S1: looking for the next best version of it. You know,
S1: the I'll be happy wins. Yeah. I'll be happy when
S1: I get the promotion. I'll be happy when the house
S1: is clean. I'll be happy when I get this job,
S1: you know, whatever it might be. Just be happy now
S1: and enjoy it for what it is. But there's then
S1: a tension between. Settling as if it's a bad thing.
S1: I don't think it is. But, you know, people view
S1: it as a bad thing and striving. And someone in
S1: the comments raised this point that I haven't stopped thinking
S1: about since she she wrote it. It was Stephanie. Thank you, Stephanie. Um.
S1: She basically said, could we use our values, our personal
S1: values as. And as areas of focus in which we
S1: if we want to strive, if we want to. Have
S1: ambition if we want to pursue be perfect. No, no, no, no,
S1: not be perfect. But if we want to improve. And grow.
S1: Focus those efforts in our areas of personal values. And
S1: I'd never thought about that, as, you know, as a
S1: related kind of thought. But it really. Appeals to me,
S1: I think, because otherwise, you know, if you are someone
S1: who is has perfectionistic tendencies or is a people pleaser
S1: or is attached to a certain idea of what success
S1: looks like or, you know, whatever it might be, this thing,
S1: this this drive that keeps pushing you. There's nothing wrong
S1: with that. And that's not what my post was about.
S1: It was not about. Adopting mediocrity across the board all
S1: the time in everything, but about allowing ourselves to be
S1: average in areas of life and being fine with that.
S1: And I think the extension of that is because over
S1: time that then opens us up to. Opportunities for. Growth
S1: and improvement and betterment. But if they are attached to
S1: the things that we value, those things that we that
S1: are most important to us in life where you know.
S4: Well like that.
S1: Over time, we're building the sort of life that we want.
S1: It kind of gives us a a guide or a map.
S5: Yeah.
S4: So ironic during when you were drafting that post, you
S4: came up to me and said, Could you read this?
S4: And you said, What do you think? And I said,
S4: It's fine.
S5: And I'm like, but.
S1: I want it to be excellent. But someone else commented, Yeah.
S1: And she's like, I'm fine with just being fine so
S1: that when I want to give my time and energy
S1: to something that is excellent, that I ask myself, could
S1: I have done any better? And the answer is no.
S1: She's like, For me, it's my writing. And I'm like,
S1: Say yes. Okay. Yeah. And that sort of crystallized it again.
S1: It's like, you don't have to be just fine with everything.
S1: And you know, but if there's something in your life
S1: that a number of people said, like their relationships, they
S1: they spend time and effort wanting to excel in their
S1: relationships because the flow on of that is so important
S1: to them, you know. So it was I kind of
S1: felt like a fraud when you said it's just fine.
S1: And I know you were being a smart ass.
S5: I was.
S4: But the only reason why I did it, it was great.
S4: It wasn't fine. It's a great post.
S1: Thank you. Still aiming for excellent, though. Yeah. And I.
S4: Reserve my judgment.
S1: If that's something that that resonates with you or if
S1: you're curious about wanting to. Know more about your own values.
S1: I actually did run a values workshop over on the
S1: Tortoise a few months ago back in March, and it's
S1: available to everyone who is a paying subscriber, which is
S1: $5 a month. So you can definitely go and check
S1: that out. Just go to Brooke McAlary substack.com and there's
S1: a link to it at the top of the page
S1: because I do think that values and understanding our personal
S1: values is so key and I think I'm becoming more
S1: convinced of how important it is to living. You know, a.
S1: More intentional life. Yeah.
S4: 1%? Yes. How are you going with your 1%? Uh.
S1: Okay. I had a breakthrough last month, actually.
S4: Okay. Share.
S1: I realized that I was still waiting for the big
S1: showy result. So the whole the theory being that, you know, 1%
S1: effort every day or whenever you can do it does
S1: over time at a compound.
S5: Yeah.
S4: Into significance.
S1: Right. But I was waiting for that. I was waiting for,
S1: you know, the moment that. The dam walls burst in.
S1: All of my efforts kind of came to fruition at once. Yeah,
S1: and that's not how it works. But it was interesting
S1: that I had taken that kind of mentality and applied
S1: it to the 1%. So, you know, it was like,
S1: you know, weeding the garden. I'm always talking about weeding
S1: the garden as though it's all I ever do. But,
S1: you know, why isn't it making more of a difference?
S1: Why can I not see more progress with my 15
S1: minutes a day or my 1% of the week? Like,
S1: because that's not the point. The point is not that
S1: you're going to have a moment of breakthrough. The point
S1: is that you are showing up for this thing. Regardless.
S1: So that was interesting. So I feel like I'd been
S1: saying all the right things, but not necessarily fully believing it.
S4: Yeah.
S1: So that's shifting for me and really, you know, reframing.
S1: My expectations of what that looks like. Um. Yeah, but
S1: practically speaking, it has certainly helped. With my writing. I'm back.
S1: Working on my creative writing, which is really nice. After
S1: having a bit of a dip kind of through the
S1: last part of April, beginning of May. So I'm trying
S1: just to apply the 1%, not going 1% and whatever
S1: else I can, you know, squeeze in, it's just 1%
S1: and just keep showing up with the 1% and have
S1: faith that over time that adds up to something. What
S1: that something is. Who knows? But as a. As a baseline,
S1: as a commitment. As like a. Acknowledgment of showing up
S1: for this thing. That's important to me. That's been really helpful.
S1: And like so like I said last month, I think
S1: I started viewing the 1% through that lens of my
S1: values as well. And that's been kind of. Helpful and enlightening.
S1: What about you? Where are you up to with your 1%?
S4: My four day.
S5: Week?
S4: Well, I had a sleep in this morning.
S5: Okay, good.
S4: That. And I'm going to take those sleeping on a workday. Outrageous.
S4: But I'm going to take it as as part of
S4: my overall. Drive for a four day week. It's those
S4: little 1% changes and I'm going to work insane hours
S4: this week. I just I just know it.
S1: One of those weeks.
S4: But I know that I started the week with a
S4: little bit of a buffer. With a little bit of a.
S4: I don't know. It's like almost just for my mental health, almost.
S1: So if that gives you that 1% white space.
S5: Exactly.
S1: In your head, in your. You know, your emotional.
S5: Margin. Yeah. Yeah.
S1: If it gives you that, then that might make a
S1: difference in how you approach that meeting or this recording
S1: or that report that you've got to write, you know.
S1: It's so it's tricky, I think, for you, particularly because
S1: you're a solutions guy. You're like, how do I quantify it? Like,
S1: you can't quantify it. You'll never know whether that 1%,
S1: that 15 minutes extra that, you know, sitting in bed
S1: having a coffee together and talking about the day you
S1: won't ever know whether it makes a difference or not.
S1: But I think you have to trust that it does.
S1: And that's not necessarily. Natural to you.
S4: I have to work at that.
S5: Yeah.
S1: We think you do a good job of like, believing
S1: in it even though you can't see it. It's not
S1: something that you can see on a spreadsheet or. Yeah.
S4: So, you know every every month or do a little
S4: bit more. You know, it's just being aware of it.
S4: That's half the battle being aware of of. What you're
S4: working towards and being constantly reminded of, it really helps.
S5: Does it really helps me.
S1: It doesn't feel like a pressure. No, no.
S4: Because you're in the context of 1%, right? Sure. That's
S4: the key. Yeah. Like 1% improvements.
S5: Yeah.
S4: One 1% difference. It's. Yeah, it's. It's the way to go.
S4: It's revolutionary.
S1: I dig it. I find it very powerful. Yeah, it's
S1: been interesting.
S5: To see something greater.
S4: There. I'm sure that we can do with.
S5: The 1%.
S4: Community. The 1%?
S5: Yeah.
S1: I don't. Um. I'd be curious to unpack that with
S1: you at some point.
S5: Let's talk about that.
S4: Not on a podcast.
S1: I think that's us for the month. Yeah. Just a reminder,
S1: I'm writing really regularly over on the Tortoise, which is
S1: my new home online over on Substack. So again, Brooke
S1: McAlary Substack is where you will find me. Or you
S1: can just Google the tortoise and it will. It will
S1: show up. I'm writing at least once a week, usually twice.
S1: And there's some quarterly I'm creating workshops or retreats for
S1: paying subscribers. So the first one was, as I mentioned, values.
S1: The most recent one was a rhythms retreat, where I
S1: took people through the process of creating their own morning
S1: and evening seasonal rhythms. And the next one, I think,
S1: will be about writing as self-care, but that won't be
S1: for a couple of months. So. Okay. Yeah. If you're interested,
S1: make sure. Yeah, journaling will be part of it. Yeah,
S1: journey journaling will be part of it. It's actually a
S1: workshop that I devised, an in-person workshop that I was
S1: going to run last the year before last, but got
S1: derailed by Covid. Oh, okay. So it's taking elements of that. Cool.
S1: So if you want to be on the list, make
S1: sure that you find out about that retreat or want
S1: to take the other ones, you just head over to
S1: the tortoise. You can sign up as a free member
S1: or as a paying member. I'd love to have you.
S4: Thanks very much for your reviews. Comments on Apple Podcasts.
S5: Yeah, they're very.
S4: High and over on the Tortoise. It's just been.
S5: Great. It's been.
S1: Amazing. Yeah. Cup filling. You know, one of the things
S1: that I've wanted for so many years is to develop
S1: community around this kind of space in these conversations. And
S1: I feel like finally that's happening.
S5: You know, kind of locking that in.
S1: Yeah, just the way that the, the platform over at
S1: Substack is developed and the way that we're using it
S1: as a community. And just to start to see those
S1: interactions between people is so heartwarming. And I feel like
S1: we're starting to really get there towards that, that hard
S1: to quantify goal that I've had around community. So yeah,
S1: please do check it out. It's a really wonderful group
S1: of people and would love to have you there. Thank
S1: you obviously for those reviews as well because we have
S1: read through all of the recent ones and I've been
S1: really moved by them actually. They've been really wonderful. So
S1: thank you for taking the time to do that. Thank you, Ben.
S8: Thank you. Pleasure, my darling.
S1: And until we are in your ears again, take good
S1: care and we'll see you soon.
S3: I just saluted the microphone.
S1: No one could say that, but I appreciated it. Yeah.
S3: Bye.