S1: Every week. Hillsdale College President Larry Arnn joins Hugh Hewitt
S1: to discuss great books, great men, and great ideas. This
S1: is Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network.
S1: More episodes@podcast.hillsdale.edu or wherever you find your audio.
S2: Morning glory. Good evening, Grace America, I'm Hugh Hewitt. That
S2: music means the Hillsdale dialogue is underway. Doctor Larry Arnn
S2: is my guest this week as we plunge into this book,
S2: which is the Finest Hour volume two of Winston Churchill's
S2: memoir of the Second World War. And I have the
S2: modern paperback edition. There are many, many different editions. So
S2: the pages that I reference may not be the pages
S2: that you reference. But doctor, aren't we read every page
S2: of the Gathering Storm because it was so apropos of
S2: the time we live in. I don't know if we'll
S2: do every page in the finest hour. I'm not sure.
S2: We'll do volume three, four, five and six. But why
S2: is the finest hour different and unique and important among
S2: the other five volumes of memoirs?
S3: Well, it's the peak. It's one of the turning points.
S3: Solzhenitsyn has written a series of, of, uh, history books,
S3: one of which still in the translation process. Uh, and
S3: he wrote about what he called nots. Uh, that is
S3: to say, places where history comes together and everything changes.
S3: And those, those nots tend to form around events that
S3: are very narrowly run, right? That it could have gone
S3: the other way. And so one of those happened in
S3: May through September of 1940. Uh, and the finest hour
S3: is that period of time. It actually extends until the
S3: middle of 1941. Because beginning on May the 10th, the
S3: Second World War broke out on September 3rd, 1939, when
S3: Hitler and the Soviet Union attacked Poland and they worked
S3: on Poland from September until May of the next year, 1940.
S3: And they destroyed it also Finland. And, uh, right toward
S3: the end we talked about this. Hitler attacked Norway. So
S3: the war was spreading. But May the 10th was the
S3: big day. Uh, that's when the Wehrmacht turned its blitzkrieg
S3: machine west, and they attacked Belgium and France, and they
S3: did it in an innovative way, somewhat alike, but mostly
S3: different from the way they did the same thing in
S3: 1914 to start the First World War.
S2: But without the French. This time, the theme of the book.
S2: And I want to tell people that because it's on
S2: the first page, Churchill wrote it. Theme of the volume
S2: how the British people held the fort alone till those
S2: who hitherto had been half blind were half ready. He's
S2: still not going to let anyone forget that they were
S2: not ready when he was called upon to to save
S2: the world.
S3: Yeah, they were not. Britain was not ready and France
S3: was really not ready. And we were not ready. And
S3: we of course, didn't get into it for quite some time.
S3: But the way they came to be alone was that
S3: against every expectation. There's no modern equivalent of this. Hitler
S3: conquered France in six weeks and destroyed a 3 or
S3: 4 million man army in that amount of time and
S3: drove the British off the continent. They got most of
S3: their soldiers away. Many French soldiers to almost none of
S3: their equipment, and that was the only army Britain had.
S3: And so when Churchill says alone, that's what he means.
S3: At that moment, Hitler was master of Western Europe, into
S3: Central Europe, bordering Eastern Europe and over into Poland. And
S3: he was allies with the Soviet Union, the other great
S3: remaining independent power in Europe. And between them they had
S3: complete control of the continent, where most of the power
S3: and people in the world lived at that time.
S2: Now, the first three chapters are on the government, but
S2: the chapter two and three, which I think will probably
S2: spend the most time on, is about the collapse of
S2: the French. As Churchill puts it, 4 or 5 millions
S2: of men met each other in the first shock of
S2: the most merciless of all the wars of which record
S2: has been kept. I think we do have. Bill Bennett
S2: used to say we have trouble with numbers in this age.
S2: That's a lot of soldiers fighting, a lot of soldiers.
S2: That's a lot of tanks and airplanes in the air.
S2: That's an immense undertaking that we see in movies by
S2: little bits, and we read books about it. But the
S2: idea of 4 or 5 million men and all the
S2: tanks in the army clashing across Europe is really something.
S2: I hope we never see it again. Kind of extraordinary
S2: to have had to have lived through.
S3: Yeah. It it it was the Second World War was, uh,
S3: much bigger. I mean, the First World War was unprecedented.
S3: And the cost of it and the fighting conditions were
S3: unprecedentedly bad. The Second World War was much bigger, much bigger,
S3: and went on longer. And, uh, casualties were much higher,
S3: although not, uh, British casualties. They, their casualties were about
S3: half what they were in the First World War. And
S3: that was partly because technology was which war was fought
S3: had changed very much. Maneuver and tanks instead of trenches,
S3: and partly because Churchill was in charge and he was
S3: always looking for a way to spare life. Uh, but
S3: it was a terrible thing. And of course, it was
S3: a complete astonishment because Britain, you know, first of all,
S3: it was a controversial decision. It was controversial to Churchill
S3: to ally with France and send an expeditionary force onto
S3: the continent. They'd done that before in the world, in
S3: the wars of Marlborough and others, but they were always
S3: reluctant to do it because they're a great naval power
S3: and they have the channel to protect them. But now
S3: it's the airplane time, right? And that means, you know,
S3: Britain can get bombed soon. It would be. And the
S3: Navy might not even be able to operate safely in
S3: the channel with air power, as proved to be true
S3: until they got air superiority.
S2: So there's a curious part, Larry, at the beginning of
S2: the book, I got to ask you this question very
S2: beginning of volume two. Churchill almost breaks the fourth plane
S2: and is talking to the millions of Americans. This book
S2: comes out in 48 or 49. It's a huge bestseller.
S2: Everybody wants to read about the war in which they
S2: have been involved, or their family's been touched. And he
S2: spends the first few pages making sure that at least
S2: the American reader and certainly the British reader understand who
S2: did what. And he writes he doesn't want to insult
S2: the United States, but he writes, it is in the
S2: combined interest of the English speaking world, and that would
S2: include Australia and New Zealand and Canada, that the magnitude
S2: of the British war making effort should be known and realized.
S2: And he goes on to point out that until July
S2: of 1944, which is five years after this thing gets started,
S2: Britain and her empire had a substantially larger number of
S2: divisions in contact with the enemy than the United States.
S2: And then he goes through the casualties. The British lost
S2: 303,000 men, the dominions the Empire lost 109,000 men. They
S2: lost 60,500 civilians in the air raids in the Battle
S2: of Britain. They lost 30,000 merchant and fisherman. And he says,
S2: compare that to the United States, which lost all over
S2: the world, 322,000. Why does he do that?
S3: Well, by the time he's writing this book, uh, and indeed,
S3: before the Second World War, we had become the greatest
S3: reserve of power in the world. And he. And we
S3: rescued them. It took the British standing alone for us
S3: to get a chance to do that, but we rescued them.
S3: He wants to make the point that they are serious partners,
S3: and also he wants to honour his country, which he got.
S3: Victor Hanson in his very good book, The Second World Wars,
S3: he calls it, because there were such huge theatres all
S3: over the world and they operated independently, somewhat. He makes
S3: the point that pound for pound, the British got the
S3: most out of themselves of any nation. They sacrificed so much,
S3: you know. And Churchill was just really good at organizing
S3: a war and fighting one, fighting it to win, fighting
S3: it as cheaply as possible. But here he simply outnumbered.
S3: And and so he's got to fight by every hook
S3: and crook to try to keep the nation alive. And,
S3: you know, we have to talk about the politics of
S3: this some, because there are deep things evident in the
S3: parts of this early book about what Churchill figured out
S3: over the course of his life about politics, because one
S3: of the things.
S2: There, because he's in our last segment, in the last
S2: chapter of Gathering Storm, Chamberlain steps down. Churchill steps up
S2: after playing his cards very nicely. He's now in charge
S2: of the whole thing. He has to keep the Conservative Party.
S2: He's got to keep Chamberlain in the government. He's got
S2: to keep Halifax a couple of other Appeasers, Simon and Hoare.
S2: And he's got to bring in the other party. It's
S2: a balancing act. It's a juggling act that, uh, we
S2: don't really know much about. That's not how we do
S2: our governments. But what a.
S3: Yeah. Well, he could, so he could he didn't have
S3: a term. Right. He could lose his job on any
S3: day in a vote of the House of Commons. And
S3: the conservatives had a majority of 120. And they were
S3: loyal to Chamberlain and Halifax, who had led them for
S3: a long time, and. And they were cool to Churchill.
S2: And remember that he could lose his job on any day,
S2: lose his job on any day. So I had to
S2: walk a very fine line. More on their finest hour
S2: with Doctor Larry Arnn. All things hillsdale@hillsdale.edu. All the dialogues@hughforhillsdale.com.
S2: Welcome back America. I'm Hugh Hugh with Doctor Larry Arnn.
S2: We're talking about the finest hour by Winston Churchill and
S2: his command by speech of the House of Commons, even
S2: though it wasn't with him. Doctor arm.
S3: Uh, in the very great speech, which is in this
S3: volume when it's in the in the last volume, he says, uh,
S3: I will say to my this house, as I've said
S3: to my colleagues in the cabinet, I have nothing to
S3: offer but blood, toil, tears and sweat. Well, the first
S3: paragraph of that, it's a very short speech, but the
S3: first pair is only two paragraphs long. The first paragraph
S3: is not so famous. And in the first paragraph he says, uh,
S3: I've reorganized the cabinet over the weekend, and I'm sorry
S3: that I didn't get to talk to some of the
S3: people who have been fired. And then he goes into that,
S3: as I've said to them, I say to you, nothing
S3: but blood. He completely reorganized the cabinet in three days,
S3: And he had learned how to do that. First of all,
S3: there's a part of the American Constitution that he always
S3: admired unreservedly. He admired the whole thing. He usually subordinated
S3: to the British, but sometimes not the provision that there's
S3: a commander in chief, and that commander in chief is
S3: appointed by the people of the United States. And that
S3: means in America, war policy can be uniform. It can
S3: be united, can be unidirectional. And Britain did not achieve
S3: that in the Second World War, the First World War.
S3: In the Second World War. Churchill organised that over the
S3: weekend and he thought about it for decades. And he
S3: mentions in this book where he learned the importance of that.
S3: He learned that in the First World War when he
S3: was advocating the Dardanelles, but he didn't have the authority
S3: to see it through. And he believed that if it
S3: had just been prosecuted consistently, it would have succeeded. Instead,
S3: the people who did have the authority abandoned it when
S3: it got tough and he suffered the consequences. And so
S3: he sets up his cabinet. So there's a small war cabinet. Uh,
S3: he appoints himself Minister of Defence, and that makes him
S3: in charge of the war ministries, all of them. And
S3: it makes him the chairman of the, uh, Chiefs of
S3: Staff Committee. That's all. The service heads, the serving officers,
S3: the supreme generals and admirals. And that meant that there
S3: were these three bodies. There's the the War Cabinet and
S3: there's the defence civilian establishment, and there's the United War Services.
S3: And Churchill is the only member of all three.
S2: It's kind of astonishing that he would sit there and
S2: ask not only ask, but demand more and more power.
S2: He is going to run this war, and it's an
S2: overwhelming amount of power that he's gathering into his hands.
S2: But he's doing it, as you pointed out, quite conscientiously.
S2: And they're down to five in the War Cabinet about
S2: the War Cabinet. He writes, they were the only ones
S2: who would have the right to have their heads cut
S2: off on Tower Hill if we did not win. So
S2: there are five people. But then about those five people,
S2: he writes a little bit later it was understood and
S2: accepted that I, Churchill, should assume the general direction of
S2: the war, subject to the support of the War Cabinet
S2: in the House of Commons. The key change which occurred
S2: on my taking over was, of course, the supervision and
S2: direction of the Chiefs of Staff Committee by a Minister
S2: of Defence with undefined powers. So it's all new in
S2: British history. He's doing something new for a new exigency.
S3: Yeah. And he but also, by the way, something he
S3: had thought through for 25 years. Uh, you know, he
S3: suffered the absence of that to his cost in the
S3: First World War. And so he, he had reached a
S3: place in his life that he was the one who
S3: could do this. And of course, there's something controversial, controversial
S3: today about all of this and controversial. And that is
S3: he comes into power on the 10th of May 1940,
S3: the same day Hitler attacks to the West. And it's
S3: very important to to people to understand the drama of
S3: these days. He's writing about these days in this book.
S3: And the drama is that on the eighth and 9th
S3: of May, 1940, there is a debate over a motion
S3: of no confidence against Neville, Chamberlain and Churchill, and it
S3: was likely to succeed. And Churchill could surmise that if
S3: Chamberlain fell, he would be one of the two people
S3: who would be picked. Halifax the other one, Churchill spent
S3: those two days defending Neville Chamberlain the most fiercely and
S3: taking personal responsibility for the failures of the Chamber of
S3: Administration on his own shoulders. And that was, first of all, noble, right.
S3: And effective. And I think it bore fruit because from
S3: that time until Neville Chamberlain died in November of that year,
S3: he had cancer. He didn't live very much longer than
S3: he had cancer on the eighth or 9th or 10th
S3: of May. Um, a friendship was born. And that friendship
S3: was important because on the 27th of May. See. So
S3: you're talking about May the 10th. The German attack starts
S3: and Churchill takes power. And 17 days later, Lexi. 13
S3: days later, it starts on the 23rd of May. It
S3: becomes apparent that France is going to fall and Britain
S3: is going to be alone and might not get its
S3: army back. And my wife's father was in that army
S3: and left Dunkirk Beach the last day anybody did. And
S3: I remember my wife was born after that I might
S3: not have ever met. Um, so these dramas are going on.
S3: And Mussolini not yet in the war, but Hitler henchman,
S3: a former British ally in the First World War and before,
S3: is appealing to open a peace conference. And, uh, if
S3: I remember correctly, Mussolini's son in law or nephew, I
S3: can't remember is the Italian ambassador, and he's talking to Halifax,
S3: the foreign minister. And remember, in the cabinet they are
S3: there because they have a constituency of their own and
S3: they have some force. And so on the 23rd of May,
S3: 13 days later, Halifax begins bringing these appeals for a
S3: peace conference to the cabinet war cabinet to the War Cabinet,
S3: the whole cabinet. 25 others don't know that this is
S3: going on. And so the first day Churchill Temporizes find
S3: out what they say. Second day, third day, fourth day,
S3: fifth day. It gets to be the 28th. And Halifax
S3: is becoming insistent. Now, if Halifax or Chamberlain or both
S3: of them had resigned from the War Cabinet and the cabinet,
S3: then probably Churchill's government would have fallen. So he couldn't
S3: make them right. And, you know, remember, there are people
S3: writing today that it would have been better to have
S3: made a piece at that time, because Britain did lose
S3: its pre-eminence in the war through the course of this war.
S3: Probably going to lose it anyway because we're a much
S3: bigger country. But never mind.
S2: Never mind. Don't go anywhere, America. Much more coming up.
S2: All things Hillsdale are@hillsdale.edu, including Erika Kirk's commencement address at
S2: the state, including all their video courses, hillsdale.edu, and of course,
S2: all the prior dialogues@hughforhillsdale.com. Stay tuned. Welcome back America. I'm
S2: Hugh Hewitt talking with doctor about all the internal debate
S2: debates that go on, really about whether or not Churchill
S2: ought to have made a separate peace.
S3: So remember, there's second guessing about this going on to
S3: this day. Well, Churchill doesn't say much for days. And
S3: then he gets to the 28th and Halifax is pressing
S3: and threatening slightly. We have the record of these conversations,
S3: by the way, and they're not candidly recited in this
S3: book that we're reading. Churchill does a remarkable thing. He
S3: calls on the at the moment, on the 28th of May,
S3: a meeting of the entire cabinet. And they don't know
S3: what's going on, and they don't really know the war situation.
S3: And Churchill gives them a speech of an hour. It's
S3: a rare speech that he did not write out in advance,
S3: but two guys were in the room and took detailed notes. Um,
S3: the best one, a labour minister, a left wing crazy
S3: named Hugh Dalton, who I always loved, Winston Churchill. And
S3: he wrote down copious notes. Right. And we know that
S3: Churchill for an hour described the war situation and said
S3: that it's very serious, said that we might have to
S3: try to get our army off France. And we don't
S3: know if we can do it. We still have a navy.
S3: The airplane problem will be the next battle. And then
S3: he says these words, which are more or less exact.
S3: He said, I've been thinking in these last few days
S3: whether it is part of my duty to open negotiations
S3: with that man, meaning Hitler, and I believe that if
S3: I were for a moment to consider parley or surrender,
S3: every one of you would rise up and tear me
S3: down from my place. If this island story is to
S3: end at last, let it end. When each of us
S3: in this room lies choking in his own blood upon
S3: the ground. He finished with that. And then they leaped
S3: up and cheered him, and there was a huge burst
S3: of feeling. Churchill calls it uncommon in the story of
S3: the of the cabinet. And then they get the War
S3: Cabinet back together, and Halifax says, yes, I think if
S3: we open negotiations at this stage, we'll be on a
S3: slippery slope. Well on that day. That remarkable maneuver in
S3: those tremendous words are what kept Great Britain in the war,
S3: which is the reason.
S2: By the slimmest of threads. Meanwhile, I want to make
S2: sure in our ten minutes we tell people, I'm not
S2: going to cover much of chapters two and three because
S2: the collapse of the French army, it's very technical. It's
S2: full of good maps. Churchill knows his maps. He knows
S2: his war. What I take away is a civilian who's
S2: not very good with maps. They literally fell apart. They
S2: couldn't communicate. The French had millions of men strung out
S2: over all of Europe, and they had no reserve. In fact,
S2: Churchill writes at one point, rather startlingly, that he's almost
S2: physically knocked over by the fact that the French don't
S2: have a strategic reserve. I find that I understand what
S2: a strategic reserve is. I'm astonished that they didn't have one.
S2: Are you?
S3: Well, the chairman, first of all, the French French army
S3: wasn't in good nick at this time. But what the
S3: Germans did, the French and the British expected the attack
S3: to come up through Belgium, and that it could not
S3: come through a place, uh, south and west of the Maginot.
S3: Let me get my numbers right. Yeah. South and west
S3: of the Maginot Line. Because they built these big entrenchments,
S3: you know, to keep the Germans from coming again. And, uh.
S3: And they couldn't get in. What? South and west of
S3: that line is the Ardennes forest. And they held the
S3: view that the Germans couldn't come through that. Well, the
S3: Germans did. Uh, they were actually reinforced in that view because, uh, some,
S3: some imaginative people thought they might get tanks over those
S3: mountain roads, but they could never get enough fuel. And
S3: they forgot that they had gas stations all over France.
S3: And so the Germans did. Rommel and Guderian got a
S3: major tank army behind the French army and between the
S3: French army and Paris and its lines of supply. And
S3: they cut those lines of supply, and everything was confusion.
S2: And very bad to have forgotten the gas stations. We
S2: got to come back to that. Welcome back America. I'm
S2: Hugh Hewitt. I'm often amazed by Churchill's memoirs, really sometimes
S2: just surprised the amazing part. Larry the Winston Churchill. I
S2: cannot imagine anything like this today flew back and forth,
S2: I think at least three times into the teeth of
S2: the battle so that he could talk to the French
S2: who were there, stunned and forlorn and paralyzed to a
S2: large extent. They don't have a plant, but their bullets
S2: flying around. He's got ten hurricanes, but but he flies
S2: back and forth. What do you make of that? That
S2: would be considered foolish in this day and age? It
S2: would be Yamamoto, right? You're you're bait for the Intel
S2: services to shoot you down.
S3: Yeah. Well, yeah, the, uh, Andrew Robertson is very good.
S3: Recent biography of Churchill Walking with Destiny goes through how
S3: much Churchill traveled during the war. A multiple of all
S3: the other world leaders put together because he was keeping
S3: a grand alliance. He called it together, and he went
S3: three times to beg the French to fight to the last.
S3: And the French had had, uh, a treaty with Britain
S3: that they would do that. And they did break that treaty. Uh,
S3: in one of the meetings, de Gaulle young he was
S3: one of the young European military commanders who understood the tank.
S3: Patton was another. Rommel. And Guderian did, uh, and he
S3: was a junior, though Churchill noticed him there and noticed
S3: that he had a lot of fire in his eyes
S3: and he sat bolt upright. Well, he's in these meetings, right.
S3: But we can also see that, um, the French are collapsing.
S3: They call out PTEN and vegan heroes of the First
S3: World War. PTEN was the commander at Verdun, the bloodiest
S3: battle in the West in the First World War. And
S3: they're trotted out and they're making policy now. PTEN would
S3: eventually be the president of the Vichy Republic under the
S3: German thumb. Uh, and at one point, uh, Churchill says, uh,
S3: you can consume two German Army corps in the streets
S3: of Paris. And Patton says, we've already given the order
S3: for the evacuation of Paris. And Churchill replies, Nations that
S3: die fighting rise up again. Those that surrender tamely are
S3: gone forever. And then. And now we have a record
S3: of this from a man named Edward Louis Spears, who
S3: was a very close friend of Churchill, and he was
S3: raised in France, and who was his French was excellent,
S3: and he was the liaison officer between the British and
S3: the French armies in both First and Second World Wars.
S3: And he wrote excellent books about them. The first one
S3: is called liaison 1914. The second one is called Assignment
S3: to Catastrophe, and he is the one there as a
S3: translator to record these conversations with the French. And he
S3: was in very close sympathy with Winston Churchill. He's a
S3: brilliant man. In fact, the first time he was elected
S3: to Parliament was the first time Churchill lost his parliamentary seat,
S3: and he immediately wrote to Churchill and offered Churchill his seat.
S3: So after Churchill said that about nations that die fighting Renault,
S3: who was a little better, although they were having one
S3: of these meetings in a in an apartment where Renault
S3: was hanging around with his mistress, and her nightgown was
S3: draped over one of the chairs. Uh, something that General
S3: Spears noticed. And Reynolds says he's the prime minister. He says. Well,
S3: if you will give us your Air force, we can
S3: carry on. And, uh, Spears records. He said that was
S3: a moment of danger, he says, because I knew Winston
S3: and I knew how generous he was, and I thought
S3: he might do that. And Churchill looked down for a
S3: minute and looked up and said, this is not the
S3: last battle. He says, they must kill us in our
S3: island or they cannot win. And Reynolds says, how will
S3: you stand up against the whole German war machine by yourself?
S3: And Churchill says, I haven't thought about it very hard yet,
S3: but I expect the plan will be to drown most
S3: of them on the way over and choke the rest
S3: of them to death on the beach.
S2: I want to close with one quick, one quick anecdote. Quote.
S2: I am a strong believer in transacting official business by
S2: the written word. In Churchill's own phrase, he underscores and
S2: italicizes written word. He knows he's got all this power.
S2: He does not want people speaking in his name unless
S2: they've been authorized by him to do so. Is that
S2: a practice you follow?
S3: Oh, yeah. Well, um. Sure. Um, but, you know, Churchill
S3: wrote a million emails, memos, and they're very good. They're tremendous. Um, uh,
S3: once in a while they're long. Uh, they are always
S3: well ordered and clear. Uh, he had a stamp he
S3: would put on things. Uh. Action this day. Uh, but.
S3: And if you wrote him and he did, most of
S3: his memos are very short. Uh, uh, and very precise
S3: and concise. Right at the point you can. They don't
S3: leave much room for ambiguity. If you gave him a
S3: long memo, he would do what, uh, Margaret Thatcher used
S3: to do. I knew her pretty well. And I was
S3: told that by several people who worked for her. If
S3: you handed her a multi-page memo while you were standing there,
S3: she would start reading the first page. And he would
S3: she would put the later pages in the wastebasket. Huh?
S2: Oh, brutal. Oh, that's a good message. And you'd pretty
S2: soon get one page memos. Uh, the statue of the
S2: Iron Lady is on Hillsdale's campus, by the way, and
S2: they have. We'll have to talk about that someday, doctor.
S2: Don't go anywhere, America. All things hillsdale@hillsdale.edu. All the hughforhillsdale.com.
S2: Welcome back America doctor. I'm finished by telling them what
S2: you were telling me off air.
S3: I was telling a student the other day because we
S3: were talking about how, you know, about the past, because
S3: there are all these crazy things being said about the past.
S3: And I said, well, the past, we know it because
S3: it's written down. Did you ever, I said, discover something
S3: that you wrote in high school, a paper or a letter?
S3: And they said, yeah, somebody, by the way, the other
S3: day presented me with my original correspondence with Martin Gilbert. Oh,
S3: I was in Claremont, and that starts in 1977, a
S3: long time ago. And the young man said, yeah, I
S3: did do that. And I said, and wasn't it a
S3: resting when you did that? Didn't you correct whatever memory
S3: you had of your time back then? Because you write
S3: it down. Right. And, and that means that, you know,
S3: and you know, the records of the college, the future
S3: archives of the college are today my working files.
S2: And, you.
S3: Know.
S2: Larry, We'll leave it here. But in evidence, when you
S2: teach evidence. I don't teach evidence, but I remember it. Uh,
S2: someone called written documents put into evidence. Are the past
S2: knocking at the door of the present, uh, demanding to
S2: be heard. And that's it. Demanding to be heard. Well.
S3: The day you write the thing you don't know about
S3: today yet, write the future, right?
S2: No. You don't.
S3: That's that's why that's how you write. You know, if
S3: you if you if you, uh, study with Martin Gilbert,
S3: you learn like it's such a blessing that Churchill wrote
S3: so much because you can, in fact, know what he
S3: was thinking. He wrote so much of it down and
S3: you can have it from the time Churchill followed a
S3: rule that he would not excoriate people for things they
S3: did unless he had taken a position on it himself
S3: at the time. And, uh, and that and, you know,
S3: he did take so many positions and they are written
S3: down and they are spoken in the House of Commons,
S3: and all that is written down verbatim. And that means
S3: you can know what he thought, but what he's writing
S3: about here is exactly connected to that. Right. In other words, uh,
S3: the the biographer of Hugh Hewitt will ask Betsy, where's
S3: the letters? And, you know, that's the first thing you
S3: ask for. Where's the papers? Your emails. Right. There's a
S3: million of them. Those are hard. They present challenges.
S2: Oh my goodness. Do they ever.
S3: By the way, the digital age, like most of our correspondents, Hugh,
S3: which is extensive, is an email.
S2: It's an email. Right? Yeah.
S3: Will that be around in 15 years? I hope so.
S3: The lawyer our attorney hopes not, but I hope so. And, uh,
S3: you know, it's, uh. But you see, in other words, uh,
S3: there's a danger that the effect of the digital age
S3: will be to cut us off from the past. In part,
S3: there will.
S2: Be no or fewer knocks at the door. Fewer. Doctor.
S2: Thank you. We will come back next week and we
S2: will talk about the amazing chapters four and five in
S2: this book, The rush to the sea, where Larry's father
S2: in law and 330 000 other brave and lucky souls
S2: get off of Europe as Rommel and Guderian surround them.
S2: Don't go anywhere. Adam. Thank you. Harley. Thank you general.
S2: Thank you. We'll talk to you next time on the
S2: next Hillsdale Dialogue.
S1: Thanks for listening to the Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the
S1: Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes@podcast.hillsdale.edu or wherever you find
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