WEBVTT - The War with Iran Continues 0:00:04.600 --> 0:00:09.440 Every week. Hillsdale College President Larry Arnn joins Hugh Hewitt 0:00:09.440 --> 0:00:14.120 to discuss great books, great men, and great ideas. This 0:00:14.120 --> 0:00:19.320 is Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. 0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:25.680 More episodes@podcast.hillsdale.edu or wherever you find your audio. 0:00:30.520 --> 0:00:33.440 Morning glory and evening Grace America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. That 0:00:33.440 --> 0:00:36.199 music means it's time for the Hillsdale Dialogue. Welcome to 0:00:36.240 --> 0:00:39.120 the last broadcast hour of the week. My guest is 0:00:39.120 --> 0:00:42.920 Doctor Larry Arnn, president of Hillsdale College. He joins me 0:00:42.920 --> 0:00:46.040 each Friday, either to look very far back or just 0:00:46.040 --> 0:00:48.600 even a week back. In this case, we're looking at 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:51.199 recent news, what's been going on in the news recently. 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:54.640 Doctor Ian welcome. I hope you are having a an 0:00:54.760 --> 0:00:57.840 excellent summer and that the kids haven't come back to 0:00:57.840 --> 0:01:00.200 school yet. So you're still enjoying yourself, am I right 0:01:00.200 --> 0:01:00.800 about that? 0:01:01.440 --> 0:01:03.640 Well, we have to work in the summer. But it 0:01:03.640 --> 0:01:08.680 is true that the 1650 variables are not on the campus. 0:01:08.680 --> 0:01:11.319 And so it's a different kind of work in some ways. 0:01:11.360 --> 0:01:15.320 Are the teachers there? Because most summers there are teachers 0:01:15.319 --> 0:01:17.280 courses convening at Hillsdale? 0:01:18.040 --> 0:01:20.160 Yeah. We have a lot of people come to the campus. 0:01:20.160 --> 0:01:25.119 We had 1500 K through 12 teachers. We have hostels 0:01:25.120 --> 0:01:27.800 and they're always full, and there's seven of them, I 0:01:27.800 --> 0:01:30.560 think this summer in the last week. And, you know, 0:01:30.600 --> 0:01:34.200 hundreds of people come. Yeah. It's a it's a busy place, 0:01:34.240 --> 0:01:35.160 very busy. 0:01:35.160 --> 0:01:39.160 And and the construction I like to get the construction update. 0:01:39.160 --> 0:01:40.360 Are we closing in? 0:01:41.040 --> 0:01:45.760 No. Well, the we're about a year away on the library, 0:01:45.920 --> 0:01:49.320 but now it looks like a, a a library. It's 0:01:49.320 --> 0:01:53.680 going to be impressive. And it's you know, it's if 0:01:53.720 --> 0:01:57.720 you learn about construction, the early stages of construction are 0:01:57.840 --> 0:02:01.040 demoralizing to people. We had a hard winter last winter 0:02:01.040 --> 0:02:03.720 in the quad. The North quad was all torn up, 0:02:04.360 --> 0:02:09.040 but now it's looking imposing. And, uh, so it's, you know, 0:02:09.080 --> 0:02:11.720 it's going to be really great, but it takes a while. Uh, 0:02:11.720 --> 0:02:14.799 we've just finalized the design of a war memorial that 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:18.240 we're putting directly across the quad from the library to 0:02:18.720 --> 0:02:22.000 memorialize our country and our war dead, which are numerous 0:02:22.000 --> 0:02:25.400 through our long history. And, uh, we're going to, we're 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:28.200 starting work on a visitor center pretty soon. So it's 0:02:28.200 --> 0:02:31.239 going to be a picture. But, uh, right now it's 0:02:31.240 --> 0:02:33.399 not a fully complete picture. 0:02:33.720 --> 0:02:37.360 Well, I raised the construction question because first segment of 0:02:37.360 --> 0:02:40.320 this Week in Review and we're taping on Tuesday for 0:02:40.320 --> 0:02:43.239 a Friday broadcast. So there could be things that happen 0:02:43.560 --> 0:02:47.320 after the program tapes before it airs. We're in a 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:50.919 pause when we're talking in our battle with Iran. And 0:02:50.919 --> 0:02:54.960 the last 13 days before the last three days, heavy 0:02:55.040 --> 0:02:58.520 bombing of sites. And you know what it's like to rebuild. 0:02:58.560 --> 0:03:03.280 I am a little skeptical of our legacy news media saying, oh, 0:03:03.360 --> 0:03:06.360 they've rebuilt everything. They're doing great. Aren't you skeptical of 0:03:06.360 --> 0:03:08.320 those stories that, you know, construction? 0:03:08.720 --> 0:03:13.120 Yeah, sure. It, um, you know, you know, what do I. 0:03:13.280 --> 0:03:16.440 So first of all, they're resilient, right? I thought they 0:03:16.440 --> 0:03:19.960 would be. I think this thing is very hard. I 0:03:19.960 --> 0:03:22.680 think it's part of a great world contest that's going 0:03:22.680 --> 0:03:25.720 on intensely now and will go on, in my opinion, 0:03:25.720 --> 0:03:29.880 for a long time. But we've heard him pretty bad, too. 0:03:30.280 --> 0:03:33.000 They don't have as many allies as they used to have. 0:03:33.040 --> 0:03:37.119 Their capacity is degraded, although apparently not removed, and they've 0:03:37.120 --> 0:03:39.920 got Russia and China to help them. And so they 0:03:39.920 --> 0:03:44.480 will tend to come back. And, uh, when and whether 0:03:44.480 --> 0:03:48.040 a final end to our problems with Iran will come. 0:03:48.080 --> 0:03:51.920 It's hard to say, but the problems existed before the war. 0:03:52.280 --> 0:03:55.290 And at some point they're going to be acute in 0:03:55.330 --> 0:03:57.490 the future if and they are acute now. 0:03:57.850 --> 0:03:58.530 So in. 0:03:58.570 --> 0:03:58.890 Your. 0:03:59.730 --> 0:04:03.010 20 plus years as leading Hillsdale, have you drawn many 0:04:03.010 --> 0:04:07.010 students from the Persian diaspora heavily located in Southern California, 0:04:07.010 --> 0:04:09.450 but it's also throughout the United States? Have you had 0:04:09.570 --> 0:04:12.930 a lot of Persians who fled the country after the 0:04:12.930 --> 0:04:14.370 revolution of 79? 0:04:15.170 --> 0:04:18.290 The answer is a few. Not a lot. We're pretty 0:04:18.330 --> 0:04:21.930 full and we don't really recruit abroad a lot. Although 0:04:22.210 --> 0:04:26.010 our numbers of foreign students have been swelling lately. Swelling 0:04:26.010 --> 0:04:29.730 doesn't mean a big number, but it's probably tripled to 0:04:29.770 --> 0:04:33.770 maybe 60 kids or something like that. And we didn't 0:04:33.770 --> 0:04:36.890 really make any particular effort about that. We seem to 0:04:36.890 --> 0:04:41.570 be getting known. And so yeah. And and, you know, 0:04:41.610 --> 0:04:43.570 if you if you come to Hillsdale College, you have 0:04:43.570 --> 0:04:48.010 to make a bunch of commitments and you're aware that 0:04:48.010 --> 0:04:53.090 you're going to undergo a torture that applies equally to everyone. 0:04:53.730 --> 0:04:57.890 So that tends to collapse the differences among our students 0:04:57.890 --> 0:04:59.170 in in Persian. 0:04:59.210 --> 0:04:59.650 American. 0:04:59.690 --> 0:04:59.810 You. 0:04:59.810 --> 0:05:04.530 Know, diaspora in LA, very achievement oriented, lots of doctors, 0:05:04.570 --> 0:05:08.490 lots of lawyers, lots of people who excel in business. 0:05:08.650 --> 0:05:11.170 I just thought they would be showing up. I had 0:05:11.170 --> 0:05:14.929 one of your own on This Week, Philip Wegman, now 0:05:14.970 --> 0:05:18.969 ace reporter for The Wall Street Journal. You're taking over slowly. 0:05:19.010 --> 0:05:22.409 Major media outlets. John Miller is doing a fine job there. 0:05:22.610 --> 0:05:25.930 I'm not surprised. But are you are you happy with that? 0:05:25.930 --> 0:05:27.849 Do you want Hillsdale to own the media too? 0:05:28.890 --> 0:05:31.930 Yeah. If nothing else, to be able to to hope 0:05:31.930 --> 0:05:38.090 that it will shut up. It's no, it it yeah. We've, uh, 0:05:38.089 --> 0:05:41.970 you know, there's your, your, your buddy Jack Butler, my 0:05:41.970 --> 0:05:45.010 graduate is important at the Wall Street Journal, I think. Yes. 0:05:45.250 --> 0:05:49.969 Nine working there now. Yeah. And they get around and they, 0:05:50.010 --> 0:05:53.730 you know, the reports of them are they know a 0:05:53.730 --> 0:05:56.970 lot and they're used to working hard. And, uh, I 0:05:57.130 --> 0:06:00.050 had a former general editor of the Wall Street Journal 0:06:00.050 --> 0:06:04.130 come to see me one day. He's retired now. And, uh, 0:06:04.130 --> 0:06:06.090 he was on the campus and he paid a courtesy 0:06:06.089 --> 0:06:08.450 call on the president's office. And I said, what are 0:06:08.450 --> 0:06:10.650 you doing here? And he said, I came to get 0:06:10.650 --> 0:06:15.729 some kids. And I said, uh, good. And he said, 0:06:15.970 --> 0:06:21.170 here's a different. And I said, how? And he said, well, 0:06:21.170 --> 0:06:24.250 what we do in journalism is look at the facts, 0:06:24.930 --> 0:06:26.490 and we're not as good at that as we used 0:06:26.490 --> 0:06:29.450 to be. But your kids learn to look at things 0:06:29.450 --> 0:06:32.170 and try to see them as they are, rather than 0:06:32.170 --> 0:06:36.010 impose their theories on them. So yeah, it makes good 0:06:36.010 --> 0:06:37.650 journalists get a good education. 0:06:38.089 --> 0:06:40.570 And learn how to write along the way. Let me 0:06:40.570 --> 0:06:42.570 talk to you and go back to the the war 0:06:42.570 --> 0:06:46.050 with Iran. There are immediately after I'm done talking with 0:06:46.050 --> 0:06:48.570 you today, I'm going to talk to one of your fellows, 0:06:48.570 --> 0:06:52.969 Victor Davis Hanson, historian extraordinaire, and put to him this question. 0:06:53.250 --> 0:06:56.450 The 1930s took a while for people to realize Churchill 0:06:56.490 --> 0:07:01.289 before anyone else, that the world was dividing into camps, 0:07:01.290 --> 0:07:04.090 and it took the United States getting hit at Pearl 0:07:04.089 --> 0:07:06.890 Harbor to actually join the good guys and the Soviet Union, 0:07:06.930 --> 0:07:09.010 get double cross to join the good guy. And that 0:07:09.050 --> 0:07:12.370 war went on for for six years after that. It 0:07:12.370 --> 0:07:14.610 took a couple of years for it to become clear 0:07:14.890 --> 0:07:18.050 that there was a Soviet Union, the Warsaw Pact and 0:07:18.050 --> 0:07:21.730 China for a while, and their allies and the West 0:07:21.730 --> 0:07:25.570 and our allies and an online movement. Now, it seems 0:07:25.570 --> 0:07:29.810 to me it's become very clear that it's China, Russia, 0:07:30.090 --> 0:07:33.890 North Korea and Iran, a couple of proxies like the 0:07:33.890 --> 0:07:38.530 Houthis and the Hamas and Hezbollah, and then all the 0:07:38.530 --> 0:07:40.690 rest of the world has to pick up sides and 0:07:40.690 --> 0:07:44.090 Venezuela pick wrong. Now they're on our team. Cuba picked wrong, 0:07:44.090 --> 0:07:47.370 and they're they're out of power. Is it that stark 0:07:47.370 --> 0:07:48.690 in your mind, Doctor Oren? 0:07:50.050 --> 0:07:52.810 Oh, yeah. Yeah it is. And the reason for that 0:07:52.810 --> 0:07:57.090 is China too is proving resilient. I mean we you 0:07:57.090 --> 0:08:02.090 know it's the trouble. The hard thing about the about 0:08:02.090 --> 0:08:04.330 predictions is that they have to do with the future. 0:08:04.930 --> 0:08:10.490 But China has gained in strength consistently now for a generation. 0:08:10.730 --> 0:08:14.770 And they're assertive and they're all over the world and 0:08:14.770 --> 0:08:17.690 they're you know, the thing that I worry about the 0:08:17.690 --> 0:08:21.090 most is that we're studying the Second World War in 0:08:21.090 --> 0:08:25.570 our long term view right now. And our contribution to, 0:08:25.650 --> 0:08:29.610 to winning that war was simply decisive. And it had 0:08:29.610 --> 0:08:32.689 very much to do with manufacturing. The reason the Russians 0:08:32.690 --> 0:08:36.410 did so well against the Germans in the East and 0:08:36.410 --> 0:08:40.210 built what was then the biggest and probably greatest military 0:08:40.210 --> 0:08:44.010 of the age, was that they moved in trucks And 0:08:44.010 --> 0:08:46.810 those trucks were made in Detroit. And the German army, 0:08:46.809 --> 0:08:49.450 right through the Second World War was mostly a horse 0:08:49.490 --> 0:08:53.170 drawn army, and they just couldn't keep up. And when 0:08:53.170 --> 0:08:57.849 they confronted us on the Western Front after the Normandy invasions, 0:08:58.330 --> 0:09:02.010 they couldn't quite, you know, they were staggered by the 0:09:02.010 --> 0:09:05.290 speed of it. And the reason is it was moving 0:09:05.290 --> 0:09:09.130 in machines. Now, China has greater manufacturing power than we 0:09:09.130 --> 0:09:12.370 have now, and the administration is working on that and 0:09:12.370 --> 0:09:15.930 trying to build that back up. And there's progress. But 0:09:15.929 --> 0:09:20.130 we're not the world's greatest manufacturing power anymore, although maybe 0:09:20.130 --> 0:09:22.410 still the most sophisticated one hopes. 0:09:22.850 --> 0:09:26.930 So how far along do you think the Clarity Index 0:09:26.970 --> 0:09:30.290 is in the minds of most Americans? Because when you 0:09:30.290 --> 0:09:32.850 and I were young, there was a Soviet Union and 0:09:32.850 --> 0:09:34.810 they were the bad guys in the Warsaw Pact was 0:09:34.809 --> 0:09:37.730 on their side, and China was on their side. And 0:09:37.770 --> 0:09:39.850 it was very clear. We have a minute to the break. 0:09:39.850 --> 0:09:42.179 How clear is the division in the world today in 0:09:42.179 --> 0:09:44.780 the mind of people coming back to campus in a 0:09:44.780 --> 0:09:45.780 few weeks at Hillsdale. 0:09:45.980 --> 0:09:48.540 Well, I think everybody knows it. Yeah. And, you know, 0:09:48.540 --> 0:09:53.300 there's another thing that's like the 1930s is America is 0:09:53.340 --> 0:09:56.699 angst ridden and it probably worse than it was in 0:09:56.700 --> 0:09:59.900 the 1930s, although it's hard to measure. And their angst 0:09:59.900 --> 0:10:02.939 came from the First World War and the terrible nature 0:10:02.940 --> 0:10:06.100 of that war and the fact that it sort of 0:10:06.140 --> 0:10:10.180 changed everybody's thinking about the past and the future. Well, 0:10:10.179 --> 0:10:12.020 we have things like that going on in our country 0:10:12.020 --> 0:10:14.780 that are very serious, and we're worried about them. Right. 0:10:14.820 --> 0:10:17.420 Doctor, I want to go back to the Iraq war. 0:10:17.700 --> 0:10:21.460 There are three results, broadly speaking. And I'll ask this 0:10:21.460 --> 0:10:24.540 as well. We can win. I think I know what 0:10:24.540 --> 0:10:27.620 that looks like. They capitulate or the regime collapses. They 0:10:27.620 --> 0:10:32.219 agree to simply non-belligerent status and to leave Israel and 0:10:32.220 --> 0:10:34.980 our friends in the Gulf alone. And the strait is 0:10:34.980 --> 0:10:38.180 open or we lose. And that means the strait is 0:10:38.179 --> 0:10:42.180 closed and we can't open it, or we're going to 0:10:42.179 --> 0:10:45.900 have a long, drawn out blockade to wait for them 0:10:45.900 --> 0:10:48.700 to collapse. Of those three options, what do you think 0:10:48.700 --> 0:10:49.699 is going to happen? 0:10:50.260 --> 0:10:53.900 Well, first of all, I don't think that we're nearing 0:10:54.300 --> 0:10:59.939 a end of our problems with Iran. Uh, I think 0:10:59.940 --> 0:11:03.260 that it's probable that they will be better in the 0:11:03.260 --> 0:11:06.380 intermediate future than they have been, because I think they're weaker. 0:11:07.140 --> 0:11:10.740 And I think that we're organized about them. We've put 0:11:10.820 --> 0:11:13.900 we've put together a coalition. Like one of the most 0:11:13.900 --> 0:11:16.980 promising things to come out of this war is that 0:11:16.980 --> 0:11:20.740 we've got a bunch of allies in those Arab states. And, uh, 0:11:21.220 --> 0:11:26.219 they're very worried about Iran. Some of them have attacked Iran, 0:11:26.220 --> 0:11:29.380 which they were very reluctant to do in previous times. 0:11:29.940 --> 0:11:36.060 And so there's a clarity there that is healthy. On 0:11:36.059 --> 0:11:40.260 the other hand, It's a despotic state, and they have 0:11:40.260 --> 0:11:43.660 used torture. And there are ten, probably tens of thousands 0:11:43.660 --> 0:11:46.860 of them who impose the state. And so that's not 0:11:46.860 --> 0:11:50.700 going to get overturned tomorrow, probably. And as long as 0:11:50.740 --> 0:11:55.500 they're there, they're a problem. And and so I don't 0:11:55.540 --> 0:12:01.260 expect us to settle this soon. And I even I, 0:12:01.300 --> 0:12:03.699 I thought you people may remember I said on the 0:12:03.700 --> 0:12:06.740 show at the outset, the idea that we're just going 0:12:06.740 --> 0:12:11.860 to do them in right now is optimistic. Probably not. 0:12:12.059 --> 0:12:15.979 But if we can restrain them. I'll mention two articles 0:12:15.980 --> 0:12:20.820 that suggest strategic thoughts. One was an account of the 0:12:20.820 --> 0:12:23.820 Trump foreign policy, which was he was trying to restrain 0:12:23.820 --> 0:12:27.540 our enemies. He's not trying to liberalize them. He's not 0:12:27.540 --> 0:12:31.020 trying to turn them into democracies, which are infinite tasks. 0:12:31.140 --> 0:12:34.180 He's trying to restrain them. If you see this war 0:12:34.179 --> 0:12:37.939 in that context, you'd think that he's had some success 0:12:37.940 --> 0:12:40.100 and they're hard to restrain, and we don't have complete 0:12:40.100 --> 0:12:43.540 success yet. Uh, the second one is, is about a 0:12:43.540 --> 0:12:47.220 concept called strategic interdiction. How do you figure out how 0:12:47.220 --> 0:12:51.219 to hurt them so that their essential capacities to do 0:12:51.260 --> 0:12:56.220 you harm are compromised? And this article that I read 0:12:56.220 --> 0:12:59.900 claimed that the Israelis thought better about that than we do. 0:13:00.220 --> 0:13:03.300 But Trump has done some cool things here. The current 0:13:03.300 --> 0:13:06.060 cease fire and God knows how long it'll last. That 0:13:06.059 --> 0:13:08.459 comes from him saying, okay, every time you take out 0:13:08.460 --> 0:13:10.819 a freighter, we're going to take out a power plant. 0:13:11.059 --> 0:13:11.819 Yes. 0:13:11.900 --> 0:13:16.820 The blockade. Our blockade was an act of genius. Now 0:13:16.820 --> 0:13:22.179 it imposes cost on the world economy that we don't want. Right. 0:13:22.220 --> 0:13:24.660 I looked this morning. I think oil is selling about 0:13:24.660 --> 0:13:29.420 $80 a barrel, and that's pretty good. And, um, you know, 0:13:29.460 --> 0:13:32.420 if it goes to 200, that'll be really bad for 0:13:32.420 --> 0:13:35.500 the world economy and us. And I think I made 0:13:35.500 --> 0:13:39.939 the point earlier that we are the world's largest exporter 0:13:39.940 --> 0:13:44.300 of oil, but we're also the world's largest importer of oil, 0:13:44.580 --> 0:13:47.900 because there are some kinds and some refining capacities that 0:13:47.900 --> 0:13:49.620 we don't have. And that means that we have a 0:13:49.620 --> 0:13:54.420 net advantage. But the world market for oil is terribly 0:13:54.420 --> 0:13:58.300 significant to us as it is to everyone. So yeah, 0:13:58.300 --> 0:14:03.219 that's these problems are deeply rooted and they're not going 0:14:03.260 --> 0:14:07.459 to go away tomorrow. China is a powerful country and 0:14:07.460 --> 0:14:12.020 it's a despotism. And Russia is a powerful country. How 0:14:12.020 --> 0:14:16.260 powerful is controversial but powerful for sure. And it has 0:14:16.260 --> 0:14:18.179 an old habit of putting up with too much out 0:14:18.179 --> 0:14:21.620 of its government. Whatever problem it is, it's likely to persist. 0:14:21.780 --> 0:14:24.100 So that's going to go on, I think. And I 0:14:24.100 --> 0:14:27.820 think we have to accommodate ourselves to that world. And 0:14:27.860 --> 0:14:33.020 another thing people should remember is economies when they're free. 0:14:33.340 --> 0:14:36.460 And the world economy has a lot of freedom in it. 0:14:36.460 --> 0:14:39.420 Not enough for my taste, but a lot. And when 0:14:39.420 --> 0:14:44.580 they're free, they adjust, right? And there are huge adjustments 0:14:44.740 --> 0:14:49.260 underway right now. Major pipeline built so that you don't 0:14:49.260 --> 0:14:51.340 have to go through the Strait of Hormuz to get 0:14:51.340 --> 0:14:53.900 some of the Gulf oil out that's underway that they're 0:14:53.900 --> 0:14:57.900 building that now. So that'll change things, right? And there'll 0:14:57.900 --> 0:15:01.540 still be problems when those are changed. But if we 0:15:01.580 --> 0:15:07.060 are adaptable and run our affairs well and don't spend 0:15:07.060 --> 0:15:11.260 our seed corn on government waste, which is a chronic problem, 0:15:11.780 --> 0:15:14.660 then we can be a strong nation for a long time, 0:15:14.660 --> 0:15:16.180 which we very much need to be. 0:15:16.460 --> 0:15:20.660 And our mutual friend, Dennis Prager, has always said clarity 0:15:20.660 --> 0:15:24.500 before agreement. And I think things are becoming very clear. 0:15:25.100 --> 0:15:27.540 Israel has always had great clarity about Iran, but things 0:15:27.540 --> 0:15:31.750 are becoming very clear for the Gulf Arabs, including Kuwait 0:15:32.190 --> 0:15:35.910 and Saudi Arabia and Jordan and Bahrain. I think UAE 0:15:35.950 --> 0:15:37.950 always had a good vision of what was going on 0:15:37.950 --> 0:15:41.830 in Iran. I think that's a positive, an enormous benefit 0:15:41.830 --> 0:15:43.670 to the West. Do you agree with that? 0:15:44.230 --> 0:15:47.270 Yeah. We need you know, I mean, look, it's just 0:15:47.310 --> 0:15:52.190 the case that we need allies and we need them 0:15:52.190 --> 0:15:55.750 to contribute at least as much as we contribute. And 0:15:55.750 --> 0:16:02.070 so those are important accretions of strength. And, uh, that's 0:16:02.110 --> 0:16:03.270 you got to salute that. 0:16:03.790 --> 0:16:08.030 And are you shocked how shallow is the root system 0:16:08.030 --> 0:16:10.550 in NATO? My last question in this segment, we'll go 0:16:10.550 --> 0:16:13.430 to Ukraine and Israel in the third segment. But what 0:16:13.430 --> 0:16:16.390 about NATO? I'm just amazed at how little they've done, 0:16:16.390 --> 0:16:17.510 how weak they've become. 0:16:17.950 --> 0:16:22.350 Well, European countries are in a trauma, right? It's I 0:16:22.350 --> 0:16:25.990 was in England last month and it's you know, they're 0:16:26.030 --> 0:16:30.790 on their seventh prime minister in ten years, and this 0:16:30.790 --> 0:16:35.230 guy is pretty laughed and seems vigorous. The last guy didn't. 0:16:35.510 --> 0:16:39.150 But they're not spending the money to defend themselves. And 0:16:39.150 --> 0:16:42.230 it's not just the money. Remember, it's a culture. We're 0:16:42.230 --> 0:16:44.270 going to read about that when we go back to Churchill, 0:16:44.310 --> 0:16:46.230 because of the passages we're going to take up in 0:16:46.230 --> 0:16:48.910 the final, our finest hour have much to do with that. 0:16:49.230 --> 0:16:53.750 It depends on, you know, war is great trial, a 0:16:53.750 --> 0:16:58.150 national trial. And what is the national will and unity 0:16:58.350 --> 0:17:01.310 and how well can they. And see they they don't 0:17:01.310 --> 0:17:06.150 have that right now. Now, the surging parties in Europe 0:17:06.350 --> 0:17:10.270 are all. They would all diminish the European Union in 0:17:10.270 --> 0:17:14.510 its power. They would get control of immigration and they 0:17:14.510 --> 0:17:18.149 would go down a new track. And the Tories in England, 0:17:18.150 --> 0:17:21.350 which they pride themselves being the largest political party in 0:17:21.630 --> 0:17:27.150 in the world. Kemi Badenoch is the leader of the Tories. 0:17:27.150 --> 0:17:31.709 My wife likes her and she is not going to 0:17:31.710 --> 0:17:35.550 let anybody run. Who's for net zero? 0:17:35.750 --> 0:17:38.590 I'm taping this show with Doctor Larry Arnn of Hillsdale 0:17:38.590 --> 0:17:44.230 College on Tuesday, when both President Zelensky of Ukraine and 0:17:44.230 --> 0:17:47.430 Prime Minister Netanyahu of Israel are at the white House, 0:17:47.430 --> 0:17:50.670 they've met with President Trump by the time we've begun this. 0:17:50.670 --> 0:17:53.110 And the funeral service is underway for Lindsey Graham, which 0:17:53.109 --> 0:17:56.429 we'll talk about in the next segment. I am curious, doctor, 0:17:56.910 --> 0:18:00.790 at the very beginning of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, 0:18:01.150 --> 0:18:05.669 you said on this program, sometimes there's a figure appears 0:18:05.670 --> 0:18:09.270 in history that is unanticipated who's able to rally a country. 0:18:09.270 --> 0:18:11.710 And that was Zelensky. And boy, he's held it together 0:18:11.710 --> 0:18:14.109 for a number of years. A lot of critics of 0:18:14.109 --> 0:18:16.350 him in the West, but they're still standing and they're 0:18:16.350 --> 0:18:18.990 doing more than standing. They're fighting back. And now they're 0:18:18.990 --> 0:18:22.350 making a million drones a year, and they're providing drones 0:18:22.350 --> 0:18:26.950 to our Gulf allies, and they're fighting on. Meanwhile, Israel 0:18:26.950 --> 0:18:30.550 has been flying wing to wing with the United States. 0:18:30.790 --> 0:18:34.190 This is a fundamental difference from February, when this war 0:18:34.190 --> 0:18:36.470 began with Iran, or at least the current phase of 0:18:36.470 --> 0:18:38.950 the war began. How do you assess those two countries 0:18:38.950 --> 0:18:40.790 as allies? Well. 0:18:41.270 --> 0:18:44.350 The big the first question about an ally is are 0:18:44.350 --> 0:18:47.190 they on your side? And the second question is, can 0:18:47.230 --> 0:18:52.310 they contribute? And Ukraine is just a marvel, right? I 0:18:53.030 --> 0:18:56.750 was with some military guys at a camp last week, 0:18:56.790 --> 0:19:02.150 and one of them commented that Ukraine is building more 0:19:02.150 --> 0:19:07.109 drones in a month than we have in our arsenal. Ukraine? Yup. 0:19:07.150 --> 0:19:13.630 Little Ukraine. And, you know, they're striking Moscow and they've 0:19:13.790 --> 0:19:19.189 basically eliminated or what, neutered the Russian fleet in the 0:19:19.190 --> 0:19:22.470 Black Sea, which is part of the pride of Russian 0:19:22.590 --> 0:19:25.550 military power going back to the 18th century when they 0:19:25.550 --> 0:19:30.470 got control of Crimea. So they've just done marvels, right? And, 0:19:31.470 --> 0:19:34.950 you know, Trump likes a winner. And and, uh, you 0:19:34.950 --> 0:19:38.230 know that it matters. Your allies, you need them to help. 0:19:38.230 --> 0:19:43.230 And so these guys are pretty strong and, uh, good 0:19:43.230 --> 0:19:46.149 on them. And the Israelis, too. We've known for a 0:19:46.150 --> 0:19:49.149 long time they can fight and they have fought very 0:19:49.150 --> 0:19:53.950 well alongside us. And so they're those are valuable. Right. 0:19:53.990 --> 0:19:57.190 And if you if you look at what NATO has, 0:19:57.750 --> 0:20:02.430 you know, if if I'm right, that, you know, I mean, 0:20:02.430 --> 0:20:04.870 I'm writing something about this right now. If God gives 0:20:04.869 --> 0:20:07.830 me time, I'll finish it. And, uh, I was asked 0:20:07.830 --> 0:20:10.110 to give a talk about, uh, standing on the shoulders 0:20:10.109 --> 0:20:13.350 of giants George Washington and Winston Churchill and the Anglo 0:20:13.390 --> 0:20:16.350 American Alliance. I didn't make up the title, and I 0:20:16.350 --> 0:20:18.910 thought the title was funny because the effect of George 0:20:18.910 --> 0:20:23.030 Washington on the Anglo-American alliance and the effects of Winston 0:20:23.030 --> 0:20:30.470 Churchill were precisely opposite. Yes. And. And so what have 0:20:30.470 --> 0:20:33.470 those guys in common? Well, come to find out, they 0:20:33.470 --> 0:20:37.030 have a very great deal in common. Winston Churchill will 0:20:37.030 --> 0:20:39.390 see evidence of it in these chapters that we're going 0:20:39.430 --> 0:20:43.310 to read next week from Finest Hour. Churchill didn't believe 0:20:43.310 --> 0:20:46.510 in making commitments except in the interest of his country 0:20:46.510 --> 0:20:50.270 and commitments that were calculated to be able to perform 0:20:50.270 --> 0:20:55.510 and make the country stronger. And that's George Washington, too. And, 0:20:55.550 --> 0:20:58.790 you know, Churchill became, you know, a great builder of 0:20:58.790 --> 0:21:03.910 grand global alliances. And George Washington never did that. He 0:21:03.910 --> 0:21:06.869 stayed out of the war between France, which was vital 0:21:06.869 --> 0:21:10.110 to our revolution, and England, which was the enemy in 0:21:10.109 --> 0:21:13.389 our revolution. He stayed out of the thing. Some wanted 0:21:13.390 --> 0:21:15.670 to join France, some wanted to go join England. He 0:21:15.670 --> 0:21:20.120 wanted out. So he was neutral. Well, you have to 0:21:20.160 --> 0:21:23.720 account for the world being different, right? The world is. 0:21:23.960 --> 0:21:29.359 We are now subject to immediate attack, and technology has 0:21:29.359 --> 0:21:34.760 changed in ways that make the world dangerous immediately to 0:21:34.840 --> 0:21:38.159 us that it was not before. I mean, in the 0:21:38.160 --> 0:21:42.520 First World War, there was no power that could sail 0:21:42.520 --> 0:21:46.240 a fleet across the Pacific and do serious damage to 0:21:46.280 --> 0:21:49.600 an American naval base. And our entry into World War 0:21:49.600 --> 0:21:54.119 Two was provoked by the destruction of Pearl Harbor. That's 0:21:54.119 --> 0:21:59.919 because aircraft carriers. And so it's you know, we need allies. 0:21:59.920 --> 0:22:04.680 And we've got some. And they're helping out. And Europe 0:22:04.680 --> 0:22:07.000 needs to get its house in order. One of the 0:22:07.000 --> 0:22:10.359 themes of this administration has been you've got to get 0:22:10.359 --> 0:22:14.560 your house in order here. I think J.D. Vance, his 0:22:14.560 --> 0:22:17.240 finest hour, was a couple of speeches he gave in 0:22:17.240 --> 0:22:20.720 Europe about those themes. You should. And it wasn't just. 0:22:20.760 --> 0:22:23.320 You needed to build up your military. And remember, that's 0:22:23.320 --> 0:22:27.679 not just money, right? That's young people believing in the 0:22:27.680 --> 0:22:31.080 country prepared to fight for it. And he said, you 0:22:31.080 --> 0:22:33.600 ought to protect people's freedom, too. Why don't you do that? 0:22:33.640 --> 0:22:35.440 As I note, at the beginning of the program, I 0:22:35.480 --> 0:22:38.320 taped this discussion with Doctor Larry Arnn on the day 0:22:38.320 --> 0:22:41.560 that Lindsey Graham was being memorialized at the National Cathedral 0:22:41.560 --> 0:22:45.120 after a ceremony in the rotunda. And I just wanted 0:22:45.119 --> 0:22:48.359 to ask Doctor Arnn about three things. The the nature 0:22:48.359 --> 0:22:51.200 of Lindsey Graham, the nature of the Senate and why 0:22:51.200 --> 0:22:53.440 the D. S a want is on record as wanting 0:22:53.440 --> 0:22:58.399 to destroy it. And his own state's Senate race in 0:22:58.400 --> 0:23:03.120 the primary between Doctor Al Saeed and Congresswoman Haley Stevens. 0:23:03.160 --> 0:23:05.719 Let's start with Lindsey. Lindsey Graham, I don't know how 0:23:05.720 --> 0:23:08.840 often you cross paths with him. Frequent guest on the 0:23:08.840 --> 0:23:14.040 show and and always a hawk. Always funny, always smart. 0:23:14.280 --> 0:23:17.320 And I heard a funny story about Lindsay this week, 0:23:17.320 --> 0:23:19.400 which is the only thing he feared in life was 0:23:19.400 --> 0:23:22.399 being called the former senator Lindsey Graham. Well, what did 0:23:22.400 --> 0:23:23.200 you think of Lindsey? 0:23:23.840 --> 0:23:27.240 Yeah, well, he has something in common with Donald Trump. 0:23:27.440 --> 0:23:31.040 He was a I always found him unpredictable. I mean, 0:23:31.040 --> 0:23:33.760 those great themes in his life defend the country. He 0:23:33.760 --> 0:23:38.600 was hawkish. And that's partly right. At least it depends 0:23:38.600 --> 0:23:41.560 on the circumstances whether that's right or not. He was 0:23:41.600 --> 0:23:45.640 usually right, I thought. But he would just come up 0:23:45.640 --> 0:23:49.800 with the wildest things, you know, and, uh, he get 0:23:49.840 --> 0:23:52.760 mad at Trump and then he'd support him. And, uh, 0:23:53.040 --> 0:23:58.920 so he was a nimble, he was galvanizing. And he 0:23:58.920 --> 0:24:01.040 had a long, great career in the Senate, which is 0:24:01.040 --> 0:24:02.080 a great thing to have. 0:24:02.280 --> 0:24:05.320 And the Senate is a unique place. I think it's 0:24:05.320 --> 0:24:09.200 unique in the world, actually, for the importance that it 0:24:09.200 --> 0:24:12.280 attaches to its members, the significance they have. But they 0:24:12.280 --> 0:24:14.639 still have to act as a body. No one individual 0:24:14.640 --> 0:24:17.920 matters that much. And the Dsa's attack on the Senate 0:24:17.920 --> 0:24:20.840 is really a leveling. It's a bulldozer of one of 0:24:20.840 --> 0:24:23.800 our great institutions. I think people should be aware of that, 0:24:23.800 --> 0:24:26.280 that they're wreckers of a great institution. 0:24:26.560 --> 0:24:31.280 Yeah. Well, you know, the key to have good government 0:24:31.280 --> 0:24:34.119 of any kind, free government is the hardest of the kind. 0:24:34.200 --> 0:24:36.399 That can be good. You have to have two things. 0:24:36.400 --> 0:24:39.520 You have to have the gathering and use of power, 0:24:39.880 --> 0:24:42.960 and you have to have the distribution and check power. 0:24:43.200 --> 0:24:48.320 And the Senate is a key institution, especially in that 0:24:48.320 --> 0:24:50.880 second thing. It you know, there's a lot of debate 0:24:50.880 --> 0:24:53.719 about the filibuster. And I have a very consistent record 0:24:53.720 --> 0:24:56.720 about that. I'm in favor of it. When they're about 0:24:56.720 --> 0:24:59.520 to do something terrible and I'm against it when when 0:24:59.520 --> 0:25:05.320 they're preventing from doing something good. But it's, uh, uh, 0:25:05.640 --> 0:25:09.920 so it, uh, but the Senate is that and there 0:25:09.920 --> 0:25:13.879 is an element like the British House of Commons, is 0:25:13.880 --> 0:25:18.560 kind of a herd now. Right. And our Congress, as 0:25:18.560 --> 0:25:23.320 a rule. Right. They don't make most of our laws anymore. 0:25:23.920 --> 0:25:27.679 And that's a pride. Like you will know that the 0:25:27.680 --> 0:25:35.000 constitutional health of America is strong again, when Congress has 0:25:35.000 --> 0:25:40.160 authority over all the laws. And right now it makes 20% 0:25:40.160 --> 0:25:41.280 of them or something like that. 0:25:41.320 --> 0:25:44.959 They're getting closer, though. This court is carving back the 0:25:44.960 --> 0:25:48.880 administrative state. It's been over four years that that's unfolded, 0:25:48.880 --> 0:25:51.720 but it's getting closer. And I like that. I know 0:25:51.720 --> 0:25:53.919 you like that as well. Neil Gorsuch is the one 0:25:53.960 --> 0:25:56.920 who said his book was overruled. He said, we don't 0:25:56.920 --> 0:25:59.560 know how many agencies are in the federal government from 0:25:59.560 --> 0:26:02.280 the Supreme. We can't count them. There's so many of them. 0:26:03.800 --> 0:26:06.720 I wrote there's a great, uh, that book I wrote 0:26:06.720 --> 0:26:11.960 a review of that book and, uh, it admire almost 0:26:11.960 --> 0:26:15.639 everything he's done. There's a couple of things we could name, but, uh, 0:26:16.040 --> 0:26:18.160 that book has a story in there about a guy 0:26:18.160 --> 0:26:22.719 who lost his fishing boat to, uh. And what he 0:26:22.720 --> 0:26:27.600 had was they stopped his boat and weighed his fish, 0:26:28.280 --> 0:26:32.119 and he had some number out of thousands under the 0:26:32.119 --> 0:26:36.920 right poundage and not enough. And then he went back 0:26:36.920 --> 0:26:39.840 to the dock and they weighed him again. And this 0:26:39.840 --> 0:26:43.040 time they found a few too many and they took 0:26:43.040 --> 0:26:47.520 his boat. And that's just a local decision by a 0:26:47.520 --> 0:26:52.400 nameless bureaucrat under laws that are vague and nobody quite 0:26:52.400 --> 0:26:56.359 knows what they mean, including the bureaucrat. And then he goes, 0:26:56.880 --> 0:26:59.680 you know, eventually, if I remember the story correctly, is 0:26:59.680 --> 0:27:03.120 the book opens with this story. I think he died 0:27:03.720 --> 0:27:08.169 and his wife kept up the lawsuit and was finally vindicated. 0:27:08.369 --> 0:27:12.890 And then Gorsuch makes the point that most people never 0:27:12.930 --> 0:27:14.090 get that vindication. 0:27:14.130 --> 0:27:16.530 No they don't. So and they're working on that. I'm 0:27:16.570 --> 0:27:18.650 I'm glad they are. I want to make sure I 0:27:18.650 --> 0:27:22.530 get on Tuesday next. Michigan's going to select someone to 0:27:22.530 --> 0:27:25.330 run against Mike Rogers. Now I'm supporting Mike Rogers. Hillsdale 0:27:25.330 --> 0:27:28.290 is nonpartisan. But as you look at Haley Stevens, sort 0:27:28.290 --> 0:27:32.530 of a traditional left wing Liberal Democrat, and Doctor El-Sayed, 0:27:32.730 --> 0:27:35.650 who is a DSA er and a Marxist, in my view, though, 0:27:35.650 --> 0:27:39.609 he denies it. Do you think Michigan is all for turning? 0:27:39.650 --> 0:27:41.169 Do you think they're really going to go all the 0:27:41.170 --> 0:27:43.530 way to the left? They've never been crazy. 0:27:44.250 --> 0:27:49.810 Well, you never can tell. It's a non-presidential year. And 0:27:49.810 --> 0:27:53.889 so the turnout will be crucial and not as great 0:27:53.890 --> 0:27:57.929 as in a presidential year. And so it's hard to 0:27:57.930 --> 0:28:01.129 predict what can happen. It's a close race in the 0:28:01.130 --> 0:28:05.890 polls at least. And who comes to the polls is vital. I. 0:28:06.090 --> 0:28:10.290 If the Democratic Party has any sense in it, it 0:28:10.290 --> 0:28:12.410 needs to put a stop to some of this stuff, right. 0:28:12.410 --> 0:28:16.170 Because it's very destructive. This this man, I'll say this, 0:28:16.650 --> 0:28:19.810 he's a very academic guy. Mom has got some academic 0:28:19.810 --> 0:28:24.770 chops right there, highly educated people. And they're strongly of 0:28:24.770 --> 0:28:29.530 the left. And they would undo the institutions that have 0:28:29.530 --> 0:28:34.330 kept America stable and growing for its history. So if 0:28:34.330 --> 0:28:36.570 the Democratic Party's got any sense in it, and it 0:28:36.570 --> 0:28:41.090 is a very disciplined party, you know, they've got, I judge, 0:28:41.290 --> 0:28:44.850 more central control than the Republicans have. They'll get out 0:28:44.850 --> 0:28:47.850 the vote for the other guy. And, you know, and 0:28:47.850 --> 0:28:50.290 it's not just a matter of winning the general election. 0:28:51.010 --> 0:28:54.810 This stuff is, you know, fundamentally destructive to the country. 0:28:55.090 --> 0:28:59.130 And so and it's growing in the Democratic Party. And so. 0:28:59.170 --> 0:29:03.890 And, and it's a menace. And it's taken over congressional 0:29:03.930 --> 0:29:06.290 seat after congressional seat. I think it'll get turned back 0:29:06.290 --> 0:29:08.370 in Maine. I think it'll get turned back in Michigan. 0:29:08.770 --> 0:29:13.410 Minnesota will be the third. All things Hillsdale friends@hillsdale.edu. And 0:29:13.410 --> 0:29:15.330 in three weeks when we're back or four weeks from 0:29:15.330 --> 0:29:17.610 when we're tired, we will review what happened in Michigan 0:29:17.610 --> 0:29:19.730 with Doctor Ryan, talk about what it means for the 0:29:19.890 --> 0:29:24.930 Democratic Party going forward. All things hillsdale@hillsdale.edu. All of our 0:29:25.050 --> 0:29:29.570 dialogues are contained over at hue for hillsdale.com. That's Q 0:29:29.610 --> 0:29:30.970 for hillsdale.com. 0:29:35.130 --> 0:29:38.330 Thanks for listening to the Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the 0:29:38.330 --> 0:29:47.010 Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes@podcast.hillsdale.edu or wherever you find 0:29:47.010 --> 0:29:53.090 your audio. For more information about Hillsdale College, head to hillsdale.edu.