WEBVTT - When Race Trumps Merit 0:00:06.720 --> 0:00:11.480 From the historic campus of Hillsdale College in Hillsdale, Michigan, 0:00:11.480 --> 0:00:15.240 where the good, the true and the beautiful are taught, 0:00:15.280 --> 0:00:20.080 nurtured and honored. This is the radio free Hillsdale Hour, 0:00:20.120 --> 0:00:24.000 bringing the activity and education of the college to listeners 0:00:24.000 --> 0:00:25.400 across the country. 0:00:26.160 --> 0:00:30.360 So they'll keep voting in the people that are bringing 0:00:30.360 --> 0:00:35.400 us this squalor, because they don't blame the policies. And 0:00:35.400 --> 0:00:38.840 that's a basic divide that is very hard to overcome. 0:00:39.520 --> 0:00:42.960 This is your host, Scott Bertram. Welcome to the Radio 0:00:42.960 --> 0:00:47.600 Free Hillsdale Hour. Part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. 0:00:47.840 --> 0:00:51.879 That was Heather MacDonald, author of When Race Trumps Merit 0:00:51.880 --> 0:00:56.000 How the Pursuit of Equity Sacrifices Excellence Destroys Beauty and 0:00:56.000 --> 0:00:59.630 Threatens Lives. Now, in a revised paperback with a new 0:00:59.630 --> 0:01:02.350 preface by Heather will go in depth with her today. 0:01:02.510 --> 0:01:05.910 Also later on in today's show, Richard Samuelsohn joins us 0:01:05.910 --> 0:01:09.150 from Hillsdale in D.C. we'll talk about common sense and 0:01:09.270 --> 0:01:13.590 remember the ladies as we walk up to America. Two 51st. 0:01:13.910 --> 0:01:16.310 Happy to be joined now by Heather McDonald. She is 0:01:16.310 --> 0:01:19.950 Thomas W Smith, fellow at the Manhattan Institute, a contributing 0:01:19.950 --> 0:01:22.950 editor at City Journal, and the author of When Race 0:01:22.950 --> 0:01:27.390 Trumps Merit How the Pursuit of Equity Sacrifices Excellence, Destroys 0:01:27.390 --> 0:01:30.869 Beauty and Threatens Lives. It is now available in an 0:01:30.910 --> 0:01:35.790 updated paperback edition with a new preface by Heather McDonald. Heather, 0:01:35.790 --> 0:01:37.030 thanks so much for joining us. 0:01:37.350 --> 0:01:39.750 Thank you for having me, Scott. I greatly appreciate it. 0:01:40.310 --> 0:01:42.830 We talked about the book upon its release, which I 0:01:42.830 --> 0:01:45.149 can't believe was three years ago, but I looked at 0:01:45.150 --> 0:01:48.470 the the numbers and that's that's true. Much has happened 0:01:48.470 --> 0:01:51.550 since then. We could not have necessarily counted on or 0:01:51.590 --> 0:01:55.830 anticipated President Trump being reelected to a second term in 0:01:55.830 --> 0:01:57.750 the white House. And part of what you say in 0:01:57.850 --> 0:02:00.090 the in the preface now is that we've seen President 0:02:00.130 --> 0:02:03.130 Trump attempting as much as possible through the administration to 0:02:03.170 --> 0:02:07.930 dismantle the racial equity infrastructure that had been created. So 0:02:08.210 --> 0:02:11.810 how far have we come in these past 14, 15 0:02:11.810 --> 0:02:12.570 months or so? 0:02:13.690 --> 0:02:16.570 Well, I can't fault Trump on what he's trying to do. 0:02:16.889 --> 0:02:20.050 The question is, are any of these changes going to stick? 0:02:20.330 --> 0:02:24.610 As you recall, Trump was just a whirlwind on day 0:02:24.610 --> 0:02:29.810 one when he was sworn in issuing executive orders by 0:02:29.810 --> 0:02:33.730 the dozens practically. And a very large number of those 0:02:34.010 --> 0:02:40.890 were focused on this preposterous infrastructure that we've created in government, 0:02:41.090 --> 0:02:45.130 based on the lie that America is a systemically racist 0:02:45.130 --> 0:02:52.490 country still, and that we need to engineer racial proportionality 0:02:52.490 --> 0:02:58.680 in meritocratic, high standards institutions like medical schools, law schools, 0:02:58.880 --> 0:03:04.560 law firms, corporations in order to overcome this systemic bias. 0:03:04.560 --> 0:03:11.239 So you had Democratic administrations dating back decades, basically forcing 0:03:11.600 --> 0:03:16.600 public and private sector entities to discard high standards in 0:03:16.600 --> 0:03:21.240 favor of, uh, race. And sadly, if you do that, 0:03:21.240 --> 0:03:24.000 you are guaranteeing that you're going to get people in 0:03:24.000 --> 0:03:28.120 your institution who are not competitively qualified. So Trump set 0:03:28.120 --> 0:03:30.680 out saying, you know, we're going to get rid of 0:03:30.680 --> 0:03:35.120 racial programs within the federal government. I'm going to stop, uh, 0:03:35.720 --> 0:03:39.920 federal agencies from hiring on the basis of race and sex, 0:03:39.920 --> 0:03:44.040 rather than on the basis of how much that bureaucrat 0:03:44.040 --> 0:03:51.160 knows about his field. I'm going to stop requiring that federal, uh, contractors, 0:03:51.160 --> 0:03:57.020 private firms that have contracts with the federal government, engage 0:03:57.020 --> 0:04:03.900 in these extremely burdensome demographic surveys of their workforce, itemizing 0:04:04.180 --> 0:04:08.620 a ever larger number of racial and identity based groups 0:04:08.820 --> 0:04:13.860 that are now claiming aspiring to victim status. And and 0:04:13.860 --> 0:04:18.540 so private firms had to create these massive EEOC bureaucracies 0:04:18.940 --> 0:04:24.539 that sucked up funding and time. And in April, he 0:04:24.540 --> 0:04:28.620 did what I think is the most significant executive order, 0:04:28.620 --> 0:04:34.979 which is to try to extirpate this very dangerous concept 0:04:34.980 --> 0:04:40.260 called disparate impact liability from the federal regulations. So this 0:04:40.260 --> 0:04:43.659 was all great. And of course, he tried to actually 0:04:43.660 --> 0:04:50.739 give teeth to the 2023 Supreme Court case called SFFAV 0:04:50.779 --> 0:04:59.130 Harvard that purported to ban on a constitutional basis. Private. 0:04:59.290 --> 0:05:04.210 Excuse me. Public colleges from using race in admissions to 0:05:04.250 --> 0:05:09.050 eviscerate high standards. But colleges were sort of trying to 0:05:09.290 --> 0:05:13.930 lie low and and ignore the ruling. And frankly, the 0:05:13.930 --> 0:05:17.490 majority opinion by Chief Justice John Roberts gave them a 0:05:17.490 --> 0:05:22.010 huge loophole to continue using race. So Trump came in 0:05:22.010 --> 0:05:25.529 and tried to say, no, we really mean this. You're 0:05:25.529 --> 0:05:28.130 going to have to give us your admissions data that 0:05:28.130 --> 0:05:31.410 will allow us to determine if you're still using racial preferences. 0:05:31.410 --> 0:05:35.810 This was all good. But you know, I, I am 0:05:35.970 --> 0:05:39.409 ambivalent or, or torn between whether it's really going to 0:05:39.650 --> 0:05:43.849 make a permanent difference because a lot of these, the, 0:05:43.850 --> 0:05:52.070 the most extreme and committed organizations and bureaucracies that are 0:05:52.070 --> 0:05:57.190 committed to basically the idea that white males are the 0:05:57.190 --> 0:06:02.590 biggest threat to humanity. They're still there. They're still dug in. 0:06:02.589 --> 0:06:07.990 And I would say if we don't get another Republican 0:06:07.990 --> 0:06:13.909 administration to follow up on this second Trump term, I 0:06:13.910 --> 0:06:16.150 think we're going to backslide very quickly. 0:06:16.950 --> 0:06:20.110 Heather, I want to return to April 23rd, 2025. This 0:06:20.110 --> 0:06:23.350 is the date when President Trump, uh, has this order 0:06:23.550 --> 0:06:27.190 to federal agencies to stop employing disparate impact theory. This 0:06:27.190 --> 0:06:30.229 is a big part of when race trumps merit. This 0:06:30.230 --> 0:06:33.630 discussion about disparate impact theory. Explain for us briefly, once 0:06:33.630 --> 0:06:38.030 again what that meant and what real changes we might 0:06:38.029 --> 0:06:42.390 see or have seen since the change by President Trump's administration. 0:06:42.750 --> 0:06:47.270 Well, in a nutshell, disparate impact theory substitutes phantom racism 0:06:47.270 --> 0:06:52.179 for actual discrimination because it became very difficult to find 0:06:52.220 --> 0:07:02.140 sufficient examples of of real virulent discrimination by mainstream institutions 0:07:02.180 --> 0:07:06.500 against qualified black individuals. But you had to keep the 0:07:07.020 --> 0:07:11.900 anti-racism juggernaut going. And so disparate impact theory was developed 0:07:11.900 --> 0:07:15.580 in order to do so. The original civil rights acts 0:07:15.580 --> 0:07:19.460 that were passed in the 1960s, at the height of 0:07:19.460 --> 0:07:25.540 the sort of active civil rights era, banned employers from 0:07:25.540 --> 0:07:31.580 deliberately and intentionally discriminating against qualified black applicants. So if 0:07:31.620 --> 0:07:34.940 you had, you know, if you were a business seeking 0:07:34.980 --> 0:07:39.420 a lawyer and a black lawyer showed up, who was 0:07:39.420 --> 0:07:43.660 the most qualified, you could no longer say, I'm not 0:07:43.660 --> 0:07:47.380 going to hire you because you're black, or you couldn't 0:07:47.580 --> 0:07:52.480 not hire him because he was black without explicitly saying so. 0:07:52.800 --> 0:07:56.160 And the federal government said, that's just not that that 0:07:56.160 --> 0:08:01.400 sort of deliberate discrimination is not compatible with our understanding 0:08:01.400 --> 0:08:05.360 of equal protection and civil rights in this country. So 0:08:05.680 --> 0:08:12.080 it the civil rights laws banned intentional discrimination. Well, like 0:08:12.120 --> 0:08:18.120 five years later, seven years later, most employers had stopped 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:22.640 doing that. They were not trying to exclude qualified blacks. 0:08:22.960 --> 0:08:27.400 The problem. But and yet you still saw workplaces that 0:08:27.400 --> 0:08:33.680 didn't have 13% black representation, if they had any kind 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:39.720 of selective test for admission. So, for example, fire departments 0:08:39.720 --> 0:08:45.840 may not have been 13% black firefighters because those departments 0:08:46.230 --> 0:08:53.189 Administered a very basic elementary test of reading and math 0:08:53.190 --> 0:08:56.949 skills to firefighter applicants on the assumption that if you're 0:08:56.950 --> 0:08:59.590 going to be a firefighter, you need to be able 0:08:59.590 --> 0:09:04.190 to read an instruction manual on how to use this 0:09:04.190 --> 0:09:07.189 or that fire retardant. You had to understand how to, 0:09:07.630 --> 0:09:13.470 you know, read chem about chemicals. And so they would issue, 0:09:13.510 --> 0:09:17.550 they would administer these tests. And, and what happened was 0:09:18.390 --> 0:09:25.069 black applicants would disproportionately fail because they didn't have an 0:09:25.070 --> 0:09:30.190 even elementary level of reading skills. And so the, the 0:09:30.630 --> 0:09:37.630 workplaces remained insufficiently diverse from the perspective of government bureaucrats 0:09:37.630 --> 0:09:42.030 and the civil rights establishment. And so what what the court, 0:09:42.070 --> 0:09:44.550 the Supreme Court came up with. And this idea had 0:09:44.590 --> 0:09:48.290 been batted around in law schools for a while. Was 0:09:48.290 --> 0:09:53.370 the idea that even if an employer did not intend 0:09:53.570 --> 0:09:57.410 to discriminate against blacks, all he wanted was to have 0:09:57.410 --> 0:10:00.850 the most qualified applicants, and he'd be happy if his 0:10:00.850 --> 0:10:05.089 entire workplace was black, if he administered some kind of 0:10:05.330 --> 0:10:11.250 test or had a certain expectation of of reading skills, 0:10:11.250 --> 0:10:15.730 of writing skills, of math skills. If he if that 0:10:15.730 --> 0:10:22.810 test had a negative impact disproportionately on blacks, that that 0:10:22.809 --> 0:10:27.650 test would is, was itself racist. And so you had 0:10:27.970 --> 0:10:36.610 all sorts of, of institutions throwing out perfectly constitutional, perfectly 0:10:36.610 --> 0:10:42.329 colorblind tests based on what is called disparate impact. And 0:10:42.330 --> 0:10:48.439 that was what started a very serious decline in meritocratic 0:10:48.440 --> 0:10:52.320 standards in medical schools and law schools in, you know, 0:10:52.360 --> 0:10:55.600 flight training, you name it, any. And the sad fact 0:10:55.600 --> 0:10:59.000 of the matter is, Scott, because the academic skills gap 0:10:59.000 --> 0:11:03.760 is so wide and it has been intractable, you cannot 0:11:03.760 --> 0:11:08.880 administer a meritocratic test without having a disparate impact on blacks. 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:13.079 You can either have diversity in the workplace or you 0:11:13.080 --> 0:11:16.439 can have meritocracy. You cannot have both. 0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:20.200 Heather McDonald is with us. Her book is When Race 0:11:20.200 --> 0:11:24.040 Trumps Merit How the Pursuit of Equity sacrifices excellence, destroys 0:11:24.040 --> 0:11:27.640 beauty and Threatens Lives. Heather, you mentioned how it shows 0:11:27.640 --> 0:11:30.480 up in science and medicine. That's a part of when 0:11:30.520 --> 0:11:34.240 race trumps merit. Just recently, as we had this conversation, 0:11:34.280 --> 0:11:39.920 the Department of Justice concluded an investigation into UCLA's medical school, uh, 0:11:39.960 --> 0:11:42.000 which I think we talked about the first time we 0:11:42.059 --> 0:11:44.740 chatted three years ago, so the investigation has taken a while, 0:11:44.740 --> 0:11:48.220 but it found the school's admissions process unlawfully discriminates based 0:11:48.220 --> 0:11:51.980 on race. Their process has been focused on racial demographics. 0:11:52.020 --> 0:11:56.059 Demographics at the expense of merit and excellence. So we 0:11:56.059 --> 0:12:00.780 talk about real world impact of these policies on everyday Americans. 0:12:00.980 --> 0:12:03.059 What this means is UCLA is not being the best 0:12:03.059 --> 0:12:04.340 and the brightest, the people who are going to be 0:12:04.340 --> 0:12:06.980 the best doctors, but they're more concerned about the racial 0:12:06.980 --> 0:12:10.100 demographics of the of the potential doctors that are in 0:12:10.140 --> 0:12:14.820 their programs. That eventually affects the health and well-being of 0:12:14.820 --> 0:12:16.140 all of us down the road. 0:12:17.260 --> 0:12:24.819 It's just outrageous. Scott. Um, anybody who has a white male, straight, 0:12:24.820 --> 0:12:29.380 white male son or grandson has either discovered this or 0:12:29.380 --> 0:12:33.020 will discover it, that that straight white male is going 0:12:33.020 --> 0:12:38.860 to be the last admitted to selective colleges, to selective 0:12:38.860 --> 0:12:45.929 graduate schools, to professional schools and to law firms. Government 0:12:45.929 --> 0:12:51.330 science positions, you name it, and students experience this daily. 0:12:51.330 --> 0:12:54.690 I was at an event last night and a very 0:12:54.690 --> 0:13:00.650 left wing mother had to admit that although her son 0:13:01.130 --> 0:13:06.130 had very good Mcat scores, he was right in deciding 0:13:06.130 --> 0:13:09.650 that he would never be admitted to medical school. And 0:13:09.650 --> 0:13:12.290 so he went to Palantir instead. Now that's hardly the 0:13:12.290 --> 0:13:16.250 end of the world. But nevertheless, we have lost potentially 0:13:17.050 --> 0:13:22.850 a groundbreaking medical scientist. And this is happening all over. 0:13:23.010 --> 0:13:26.490 And what's going on is the medical schools have had 0:13:26.490 --> 0:13:32.530 completely different tracks of admission Mcat scores and and grade 0:13:32.530 --> 0:13:36.250 point averages, Mcat to the medical college admissions test. They're 0:13:36.290 --> 0:13:42.000 the standardized, colorblind neutral objective tests of the types of 0:13:42.000 --> 0:13:45.440 skills that you need to succeed in medical school. There. The. 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:50.080 The medical counterparts of the SATs. In many places, if 0:13:50.280 --> 0:13:55.199 the Mcat scores and grade point averages in college, that 0:13:55.200 --> 0:14:00.080 would be automatically disqualifying if presented by a white or 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:05.280 Asian applicant to medical school are an automatic admit if 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:09.800 presented by a black or Hispanic student. So you've got 0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:15.080 almost non-overlapping, uh, bell curves of who's getting admitted to 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:17.800 medical school. And so what happens is, and this is 0:14:17.800 --> 0:14:23.640 true for any institution that practices racial preferences, when these 0:14:24.080 --> 0:14:28.680 less qualified, underqualified blacks are admitted to medical school. And 0:14:28.680 --> 0:14:32.080 let me just put in a little aside here, opponents 0:14:32.080 --> 0:14:36.360 of racial preferences like myself are not saying that blacks 0:14:36.360 --> 0:14:39.900 should not go to college. We're not saying that blacks 0:14:39.900 --> 0:14:42.340 should not go to law school. We're not saying that 0:14:42.340 --> 0:14:45.020 blacks should not go to medical school. All we are 0:14:45.020 --> 0:14:48.260 saying is they should go to school on the same 0:14:48.260 --> 0:14:52.420 basis as everybody else admitted to schools for which they 0:14:52.420 --> 0:14:59.180 are competitively qualified, not catapulted outside of their comfort zone, 0:14:59.220 --> 0:15:03.180 outside of their skills zone into schools for which they're 0:15:03.180 --> 0:15:05.940 not qualified. So if you're a black student and you'd 0:15:05.980 --> 0:15:10.700 be qualified to go to Boston College, it is not 0:15:10.700 --> 0:15:14.540 doing you a service to be admitted to Harvard Medical School, 0:15:14.540 --> 0:15:19.140 where the students there are the absolute top of the 0:15:19.180 --> 0:15:23.300 of the academic skills curve to the extent they're admitted, 0:15:23.340 --> 0:15:26.020 you know, and not not kept out to make places 0:15:26.100 --> 0:15:30.220 for racial preference beneficiaries. So the black students are are 0:15:30.380 --> 0:15:33.860 admitted into schools that they're not ready for. They do 0:15:33.900 --> 0:15:36.850 very poorly there at the bottom of their class, and 0:15:36.850 --> 0:15:39.970 the pressure is then on to lower standards further. And 0:15:39.970 --> 0:15:43.610 that has gone on with the first stage of the 0:15:43.610 --> 0:15:49.050 medical licensing test, which got rid of grades and went 0:15:49.050 --> 0:15:54.330 to pass fail in the hope of passing through more 0:15:54.330 --> 0:15:57.970 blacks into the hospital residencies of their choice in their 0:15:57.970 --> 0:16:00.850 second year of medical training. And the pressure is on 0:16:00.890 --> 0:16:04.970 to do similar things to part two of the medical 0:16:04.970 --> 0:16:13.330 licensing exam. And sorry guys, skill matters, intelligence matters, capacity matters. 0:16:13.570 --> 0:16:18.770 These things cannot be fudged. You cannot play around with 0:16:19.010 --> 0:16:24.010 seeking the best possible candidate and lowering standards and think 0:16:24.050 --> 0:16:26.490 things are all going to come out okay. They won't. 0:16:26.810 --> 0:16:29.170 Heather MacDonald is with us. We'll talk more about when 0:16:29.170 --> 0:16:33.810 Race Trumps merit. The new paperback version, available now but now, 0:16:33.810 --> 0:16:37.110 is an opportunity to make plans for May 31st, June 1st, 0:16:37.150 --> 0:16:42.190 or June 2nd. That is when Revolutionary America is in theaters. 0:16:42.190 --> 0:16:47.230 The very first big screen production from Hillsdale College. You know, 0:16:47.270 --> 0:16:51.870 our founding generation risked everything for the freedom our children 0:16:51.870 --> 0:16:55.630 enjoy today. With 250 years on the line, make sure 0:16:55.630 --> 0:17:00.550 that they know the story. Introducing the first documentary about 0:17:00.550 --> 0:17:04.790 the American Revolution that you can trust from Hillsdale College. 0:17:04.950 --> 0:17:12.510 Go to hillsdale.edu/film to find a theater near you and 0:17:12.790 --> 0:17:17.030 get your tickets for Revolutionary America. It's in theaters for 0:17:17.030 --> 0:17:20.310 a limited run. May 31st. June 1st. June 2nd. Make 0:17:20.310 --> 0:17:31.830 your plans now hillsdale.edu/good for the whole family. hillsdale.edu. We 0:17:31.869 --> 0:17:36.020 continue with Heather MacDonald, author of When Race Trumps Merit. 0:17:36.020 --> 0:17:39.060 That book, now available in paperback with a new preface 0:17:39.060 --> 0:17:43.460 by Heather MacDonald. Heather, on this subject of educating doctors, 0:17:43.460 --> 0:17:47.140 is there an argument or is there any evidence that 0:17:47.140 --> 0:17:53.060 by enrolling and accepting doctors who might be slightly lower 0:17:53.060 --> 0:17:57.460 achieving in their career, it's still a net benefit because 0:17:57.460 --> 0:18:02.419 those doctors could serve areas that otherwise would not have 0:18:02.420 --> 0:18:06.419 any access to medical care whatsoever. Is there any evidence 0:18:06.420 --> 0:18:08.220 that that is taking place? 0:18:08.660 --> 0:18:13.580 What when the first case was decided called Baccy versus 0:18:13.580 --> 0:18:17.340 the Regents of the University of California, and this was 0:18:17.340 --> 0:18:22.220 in fact a medical student, uh, a white Jewish guy 0:18:22.420 --> 0:18:25.340 who applied to the medical school at the University of, 0:18:25.340 --> 0:18:31.560 of California at Davis and had competitive Qualifications, and he 0:18:31.560 --> 0:18:35.159 was not admitted because at that point, the University of Davis, 0:18:35.520 --> 0:18:38.639 University of California at Davis had an explicit set aside 0:18:38.640 --> 0:18:42.040 program for, say, 100 blacks to come into the medical 0:18:42.040 --> 0:18:46.720 school who had the usual very low scores. And Barkey 0:18:47.160 --> 0:18:50.480 sued all the way up to the Supreme Court. This 0:18:50.480 --> 0:18:55.480 was a public university, so it was obligated to abide 0:18:55.480 --> 0:18:59.080 by the constitutional guarantee of equal protection under the laws. 0:18:59.840 --> 0:19:04.640 The opinion that was the plurality opinion was written by 0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:10.400 Justice Lewis Powell, and he considered various rationales that may 0:19:10.440 --> 0:19:15.720 be justified, would justify racial preferences under what's called in 0:19:15.720 --> 0:19:19.440 constitutional law, a strict scrutiny test, which is a high 0:19:19.480 --> 0:19:22.440 level of review. You have to have a very strong 0:19:22.440 --> 0:19:27.440 reason to use race as a category, as a government entity. 0:19:27.960 --> 0:19:34.070 And he Considered among the rationales compensatory justice. Blacks have 0:19:34.070 --> 0:19:36.510 been screwed in the past, so we need not have to, 0:19:36.550 --> 0:19:38.630 you know, help them now, he said. That doesn't do it. 0:19:38.630 --> 0:19:42.190 Not a good enough rationale. And he considered the argument, well, 0:19:42.470 --> 0:19:45.110 blacks will be more likely to go out and work 0:19:45.109 --> 0:19:48.270 in the so-called community. They'll be more likely to do 0:19:48.590 --> 0:19:52.270 health clinics that are not so elite. And in places 0:19:52.270 --> 0:19:56.750 where there insufficient number of doctors. And Powell said then 0:19:57.030 --> 0:20:01.109 there's no evidence that that's the case. Um, and he's right. 0:20:01.109 --> 0:20:04.030 There's still no evidence of that. So, you know, I 0:20:04.030 --> 0:20:08.429 can imagine a viewer thinking, well, but maybe there's a 0:20:08.430 --> 0:20:11.030 balance there. So you have maybe not as quite as 0:20:11.030 --> 0:20:14.510 competent doctors, but if they're filling needed gaps in the 0:20:14.510 --> 0:20:17.670 medical system, maybe it's worth it. But I just want 0:20:17.710 --> 0:20:20.550 to say that rationale doesn't apply either. 0:20:20.590 --> 0:20:23.510 Heather McDonald with us. Your book, When Race Trumps Merit. 0:20:23.510 --> 0:20:28.130 Speaking of colleges and universities, once you get there, you, uh, Previously, 0:20:28.130 --> 0:20:31.290 I've dealt with dye programs all over campus on many 0:20:31.290 --> 0:20:35.050 colleges and universities across the country. The president, the administration 0:20:35.090 --> 0:20:39.330 have have instructed colleges and universities to stop those programs. 0:20:39.530 --> 0:20:43.650 And it appears, based on evidence and hidden cameras, that 0:20:43.650 --> 0:20:47.729 many places are simply renaming departments, trying to do their 0:20:47.730 --> 0:20:51.010 best to keep those programs intact while staying under the 0:20:51.010 --> 0:20:54.050 radar of the federal government. So do you think they're 0:20:54.050 --> 0:20:56.210 going to get away with that, to simply try to 0:20:56.290 --> 0:20:58.169 to wait out the Trump administration? 0:20:58.810 --> 0:21:01.770 Yes, I do. Let's just state that this is a 0:21:01.930 --> 0:21:06.570 a bureaucracy based on an outright lie. And that's bad 0:21:06.570 --> 0:21:11.090 regardless of its consequences. It's bad if a university embraces 0:21:11.090 --> 0:21:15.570 untruth because it's supposed to be dedicated to the truth. 0:21:15.650 --> 0:21:18.690 The D, e I bureaucracy and colleges across the country 0:21:18.690 --> 0:21:23.970 is based on the fiction that colleges remain hotbeds of discrimination, 0:21:23.970 --> 0:21:28.760 and that to be a female or so-called underrepresented minority 0:21:28.760 --> 0:21:32.880 on campus, which means basically blacks, uh, Hispanics, and a 0:21:32.880 --> 0:21:36.760 minute number of American Indians that to be one of 0:21:36.760 --> 0:21:42.240 those unfortunates is to be subject to unsafety. And you 0:21:42.240 --> 0:21:46.879 need allies to survive. This is all preposterous. Uh, there's 0:21:46.880 --> 0:21:51.320 no more welcoming environment in human history than a college 0:21:51.320 --> 0:21:55.800 campus to the groups that are now deemed marginalized and victimized. 0:21:55.840 --> 0:22:00.359 So these bureaucracies, it's just sucking up tuition dollars. It's 0:22:00.359 --> 0:22:03.840 making the colleges get more and more expensive. And it's 0:22:03.880 --> 0:22:07.160 and it's teaches students to think of themselves as victims. 0:22:07.359 --> 0:22:11.480 It is dedicated to that proposition. And it uses these bureaucrats, 0:22:11.520 --> 0:22:15.720 the vice provost of diversity and belonging. They use every 0:22:15.760 --> 0:22:19.040 opportunity to tell students why they should think of themselves 0:22:19.760 --> 0:22:22.719 as victims rather than as the most fortunate people on 0:22:23.000 --> 0:22:24.760 on earth in human history. 0:22:25.220 --> 0:22:26.899 Whether the issue of crime. You wrote a piece at 0:22:26.900 --> 0:22:29.500 City Journal a couple of weeks ago. Rude but right 0:22:29.540 --> 0:22:33.940 on crime, referring to Donald Trump and the crackdown in Washington, D.C. 0:22:34.260 --> 0:22:37.100 we've seen murder rates plummet in D.C. we've seen some 0:22:37.100 --> 0:22:40.780 public transit agencies across the country actually enforce the law 0:22:40.900 --> 0:22:44.500 and go after fare evaders, and crime has fallen. Vandalism 0:22:44.500 --> 0:22:47.500 has fallen in those particular locations. And yet we still 0:22:47.540 --> 0:22:51.940 sort of see this couched as some sort of racial animus. 0:22:51.980 --> 0:22:54.740 If you want to enforce the law and racial animus, 0:22:54.740 --> 0:22:58.060 if you want to keep some of our larger cities safe. 0:22:58.140 --> 0:23:01.460 Will the evidence that we see in some areas, including 0:23:01.460 --> 0:23:05.100 right there in Washington, D.C., change the minds of anyone 0:23:05.100 --> 0:23:07.460 who's who's looking at that at that topic? 0:23:09.020 --> 0:23:12.340 I've sort of given up on changing minds, Scott. I, I, 0:23:13.540 --> 0:23:16.620 and I'm sure the left says that about us as well. I'm, I'm, 0:23:16.619 --> 0:23:19.740 I'm acutely conscious on a minute by minute basis that 0:23:19.980 --> 0:23:24.050 both sides have similar rhetorical techniques that they use against 0:23:24.050 --> 0:23:27.250 the other. And both sides are equally capable of violating 0:23:27.250 --> 0:23:30.290 neutral principles. That having been said, I can I can 0:23:30.290 --> 0:23:33.570 hold two contradictory ideas in my mind at once. I 0:23:33.570 --> 0:23:36.370 believe that, and yet I also do believe that I 0:23:36.369 --> 0:23:39.890 have the facts and I'm not deluded, but. But nevertheless, 0:23:39.890 --> 0:23:42.730 I have to admit that the the left thinks we're 0:23:42.730 --> 0:23:46.889 totally out of touch with reality. I would just make 0:23:46.930 --> 0:23:50.530 one little emendation to what you said. Yes, things are 0:23:50.530 --> 0:23:54.810 looking better in Washington, D.C. after Trump in August of 0:23:54.810 --> 0:23:59.450 of last year, bracingly sent in the National Guard and said, 0:24:00.170 --> 0:24:02.290 we're not going to take this any longer. You know, 0:24:02.330 --> 0:24:06.530 this is not acceptable. There's a very high crime rate here. 0:24:06.970 --> 0:24:10.810 Disorder is out of control. We want to be a livable, 0:24:10.850 --> 0:24:14.770 beautiful city, and we're not going to excuse this any longer. 0:24:14.810 --> 0:24:18.250 That was a great, great moment. He called it. It 0:24:18.250 --> 0:24:21.330 was the second liberation day after the tariffs. This was 0:24:21.330 --> 0:24:24.910 a more important one, in my view. But recently its 0:24:24.950 --> 0:24:28.870 summer is approaching and we're getting the youth flash mob 0:24:28.869 --> 0:24:32.910 season coming upon us, where you have large groups of 0:24:32.910 --> 0:24:37.790 children raised predominantly by single mothers. They are overwhelmingly black 0:24:37.830 --> 0:24:42.109 that gather in urban centers, having announced a sort of 0:24:42.150 --> 0:24:46.510 a mobbing event on social media. And they they rampage, 0:24:46.510 --> 0:24:50.630 they raise hell. And there was one recently in Washington, DC, 0:24:50.630 --> 0:24:53.229 in the Navy Yards area. So I would say we 0:24:53.230 --> 0:24:58.310 need more National Guards. But crime is another area where 0:24:58.310 --> 0:25:02.590 you have disparate impact theory at work, just as it's true. 0:25:02.590 --> 0:25:06.910 And again, I may also say I'm speaking about averages here. 0:25:07.550 --> 0:25:11.869 I am not speaking about any individual white, Hispanic or 0:25:11.869 --> 0:25:17.389 black person. There are thousands of blacks who are overperforming 0:25:17.390 --> 0:25:22.420 whites and Asians in academic skills. There's thousands of blacks 0:25:22.420 --> 0:25:27.380 who are far more law abiding than white and Asian 0:25:27.380 --> 0:25:32.820 gang bangers and thugs. But the averages, the data do 0:25:32.820 --> 0:25:38.500 not lie. And it is the case that black crime rates, 0:25:38.780 --> 0:25:40.899 on average, take in the group as a whole. I'm 0:25:40.900 --> 0:25:45.260 not talking about any given individual. Uh, are so much 0:25:45.260 --> 0:25:49.780 higher than other groups in society that if you apply 0:25:49.780 --> 0:25:58.500 the laws against turnstile jumping against robbery, against aggravated assault, uh, 0:25:58.660 --> 0:26:02.180 you will have a disparate impact on black criminals, not 0:26:02.180 --> 0:26:05.740 because the laws are racist, but because the crime rate 0:26:05.740 --> 0:26:09.820 is so high. And, and so the criminal justice system 0:26:09.820 --> 0:26:14.260 under progressive leadership has said, well, if if we enforce 0:26:14.540 --> 0:26:22.000 laws against shoplifting or turnstile jumping. We will be putting 0:26:22.000 --> 0:26:28.200 a disproportionate number of black juveniles in jail. Maybe. Although 0:26:28.200 --> 0:26:31.560 if they're juveniles, they get a free pass immediately, immediately. 0:26:31.560 --> 0:26:34.600 But even if we apply these laws against people that 0:26:34.600 --> 0:26:38.160 already have ten crimes in their background, we will have 0:26:38.160 --> 0:26:41.840 a disparate impact on black criminals. Therefore, we'll stop enforcing 0:26:41.840 --> 0:26:44.920 the law because it has a disparate impact that's been 0:26:44.920 --> 0:26:48.800 going on. And that's a more difficult thing for Trump 0:26:48.800 --> 0:26:53.440 to get at, because these are generally local, state and 0:26:53.440 --> 0:26:57.760 local decisions. And the federal government has limited authority over 0:26:57.760 --> 0:26:58.960 those decisions. 0:26:59.480 --> 0:27:02.840 So let me actually probably end there, which is since 0:27:02.840 --> 0:27:05.080 the last time we've talked, New York now has a 0:27:05.119 --> 0:27:09.160 socialist mayor. Chicago essentially has a socialist mayor, Seattle has 0:27:09.160 --> 0:27:11.240 a socialist mayor. It seems some of our big cities 0:27:11.240 --> 0:27:15.240 are leaning into democratic socialists or just flat out socialists 0:27:15.240 --> 0:27:19.790 in office. What kind of levers do they then have 0:27:19.830 --> 0:27:22.190 at the local level, at the city level, and some 0:27:22.190 --> 0:27:24.750 of our biggest cities in the country to try to, 0:27:24.790 --> 0:27:28.750 in their, in their parlance, restore equity in those areas. 0:27:29.030 --> 0:27:32.190 They have a lot of leverage. There's a long standing 0:27:32.190 --> 0:27:36.870 battle in New York City over what are called test schools. 0:27:36.869 --> 0:27:40.950 These are specialized high schools that are public. They're free 0:27:41.470 --> 0:27:48.350 that use academic skills tests to admit students. This is 0:27:48.350 --> 0:27:54.670 fairly rare, although they exist like Virginia has one. San Francisco, Seattle, 0:27:55.150 --> 0:27:58.510 and they've been the crown jewel of the public education 0:27:58.510 --> 0:28:01.550 school in New York City. The most famous one is 0:28:01.550 --> 0:28:07.270 called Stuyvesant High School, and it's down in the lower Manhattan. 0:28:07.590 --> 0:28:12.830 And at this point, it is so overwhelmingly Asian. Whites 0:28:12.830 --> 0:28:20.619 are underrepresented. Asians are way overrepresented based on their population 0:28:20.619 --> 0:28:25.139 in New York City. Why? Because they're whooping everybody's ass. 0:28:25.380 --> 0:28:31.659 The parents are riding their children with extraordinary attention to study, 0:28:31.859 --> 0:28:35.060 to not run the streets at night, to do their homework, 0:28:35.340 --> 0:28:38.580 to learn, to pay attention to their teacher, to respect 0:28:38.580 --> 0:28:43.140 their teacher. And it's paying off. And these schools, because 0:28:43.140 --> 0:28:47.340 they are, have very few black and Hispanic students, have 0:28:47.340 --> 0:28:52.140 been under pressure for decades from the various race hustling 0:28:52.340 --> 0:28:57.580 advocacy groups to get rid of the exams and and, 0:28:57.580 --> 0:29:03.980 and do admit by race and mandate the the left 0:29:03.980 --> 0:29:08.740 wing mayor of New York czar mandate has been ambiguous 0:29:08.780 --> 0:29:11.420 about that. It's not clear which way he's going to go, 0:29:11.420 --> 0:29:17.400 but he. And it is fortunately controlled by the state legislature. Nevertheless, 0:29:17.400 --> 0:29:21.960 he's feeling the political momentum. And I could imagine, uh, 0:29:22.040 --> 0:29:27.640 that that effort to reward academic merit will be torn down. 0:29:27.800 --> 0:29:33.800 They can bring pressure on progressive prosecutors not to further 0:29:33.800 --> 0:29:38.200 enforce the law. Uh, and God knows they can certainly 0:29:38.200 --> 0:29:44.400 screw up with the economic situation. So it's really astounding. 0:29:44.440 --> 0:29:46.520 You know, I was in New York City in the 0:29:47.160 --> 0:29:52.520 Giuliani mayoralty, and it was an extraordinarily exciting moment. He 0:29:52.520 --> 0:29:56.000 took on the welfare industrial complex. He took on the 0:29:56.000 --> 0:30:00.200 the criminal industrial complex. He restored high standards. He brought 0:30:00.200 --> 0:30:05.200 accountability to government. It's all gone. New York looks filthier 0:30:05.200 --> 0:30:09.720 than ever. There's more danger than ever from mentally ill 0:30:09.720 --> 0:30:13.310 vagrants that are allowed to roam the streets without being 0:30:13.310 --> 0:30:18.910 committed for mental illness. Um, so, you know, you and I, 0:30:18.990 --> 0:30:21.230 people like us scratch our heads and say, how do 0:30:21.230 --> 0:30:24.670 people keep voting in these left wingers? And the reason 0:30:24.670 --> 0:30:27.870 I have come up with is like, when it comes 0:30:27.870 --> 0:30:33.190 to street vagrancy, otherwise known as homelessness, which is a 0:30:33.190 --> 0:30:39.990 complete misnomer. The left thinks that that so-called homelessness is 0:30:39.990 --> 0:30:47.270 a fact of nature. It's it's created by unfair economic conditions, 0:30:47.270 --> 0:30:52.350 not by public policy choices. I see it street vagrancy 0:30:52.350 --> 0:30:56.270 as completely a policy choice. People have decided that we 0:30:56.270 --> 0:30:59.230 want the vagrants on the streets. We're going to get 0:30:59.230 --> 0:31:01.910 rid of the means to get them off, which is 0:31:01.910 --> 0:31:06.310 moving people along for vagrancy, for, uh, and and committing 0:31:06.310 --> 0:31:11.010 people involuntarily if they're psychotic. Uh, the left thinks it's 0:31:11.010 --> 0:31:14.370 just a matter of we're not funding enough social services, 0:31:14.370 --> 0:31:19.450 so they'll keep voting in the people that are bringing 0:31:19.450 --> 0:31:24.650 us this squalor because they don't blame the policies. And 0:31:24.650 --> 0:31:28.250 that's a basic divide that is very hard to overcome. 0:31:28.290 --> 0:31:31.890 Heather MacDonald is Thomas W Smith, fellow at the Manhattan Institute, 0:31:31.890 --> 0:31:35.290 also contributing editor at City Journal and the author of 0:31:35.290 --> 0:31:38.770 the recent book When Race Trumps Merit The Pursuit of 0:31:38.770 --> 0:31:43.730 Equity Sacrifices Excellence, Destroys Beauty and Threatens Lives, now available 0:31:43.730 --> 0:31:48.210 in paperback with a new preface from Heather MacDonald. Heather, 0:31:48.210 --> 0:31:50.170 thanks so much for joining us here on the Radio 0:31:50.170 --> 0:31:54.690 Free Hillsdale Hour. Up next, Doctor Richard Samuelson from Hillsdale 0:31:54.690 --> 0:31:58.730 in DC. We'll talk about common sense and also remember 0:31:58.730 --> 0:32:03.850 the ladies letters between John and Abigail Adams. I'm Scott Bertram. 0:32:03.890 --> 0:32:20.640 This is the radio free Hillsdale Hour. Welcome back to 0:32:20.680 --> 0:32:24.720 the Radio free Hillsdale Hour. I'm Scott Bertram. Be sure 0:32:24.720 --> 0:32:29.440 to find more Hillsdale College audio on Hillsdale College Podcast Network. 0:32:29.640 --> 0:32:33.000 Older episodes of this program, plus The Larry Arnn Show, 0:32:33.120 --> 0:32:40.480 the Hillsdale College Online Courses podcast, and more. podcast.hillsdale.edu. We're 0:32:40.480 --> 0:32:43.920 joined by Doctor Richard Samuelson. He is associate professor of 0:32:43.920 --> 0:32:48.080 government at Hillsdale in D.C.. Doctor Samuelson, thanks for joining us. 0:32:49.520 --> 0:32:51.280 Thanks for having me on. It's great to be here. 0:32:51.480 --> 0:32:54.680 Good to have you back. As we continue our discussion 0:32:54.680 --> 0:32:59.960 and walk up to July 4th of 1776 as we 0:32:59.960 --> 0:33:03.760 approach now America 250. We've had a couple of conversations 0:33:03.760 --> 0:33:06.440 in the past. You can find that in the archives. Uh, 0:33:06.440 --> 0:33:10.500 today we're going to talk about two things common sense. 0:33:10.900 --> 0:33:15.740 And remember the ladies. Before we do that, Doctor Samuelson, 0:33:15.740 --> 0:33:20.140 tell us a little bit perhaps set the scene. What's happening, say, 0:33:20.500 --> 0:33:24.540 from the beginning of 1776, up until around April or so, 0:33:24.580 --> 0:33:26.420 where our discussion takes us today? 0:33:26.820 --> 0:33:29.700 Well, just go back a little before remember when the 0:33:29.700 --> 0:33:34.420 second Congress met? They sent the people wanting reconciliation, sent 0:33:34.420 --> 0:33:38.140 the olive branch petition to the king. It arrived, or 0:33:38.140 --> 0:33:41.260 hopefully the same time the king said, nope, I'm not interested. 0:33:41.260 --> 0:33:43.900 You guys are out of my protection. And there's a 0:33:43.900 --> 0:33:48.220 struggle in Congress in the last part of 75. But 0:33:48.220 --> 0:33:51.460 what do we do about that? Including in December, people 0:33:51.460 --> 0:33:53.260 were coming to John Adams. What do we do if 0:33:53.260 --> 0:33:54.900 we have bills or not from the King? Just say 0:33:54.900 --> 0:33:56.700 from the colony of blah, blah, blah, he said. But 0:33:56.700 --> 0:34:00.780 they had to think about that. And in late December 0:34:01.580 --> 0:34:05.930 of 76, the king said, basically American trade and in 0:34:05.930 --> 0:34:08.530 American on the colonial ships is forfeit to the King. 0:34:08.969 --> 0:34:11.650 And so the King is gradually pushing them and pushing them. 0:34:12.050 --> 0:34:17.250 And that's the context in which Paine's common sense takes place. 0:34:17.570 --> 0:34:21.969 There is a turn. All along, the colonists have been saying, well, 0:34:21.969 --> 0:34:25.529 we want the good patriot king to protect us from Parliament. 0:34:25.810 --> 0:34:28.530 And what's happening now. They realize they're starting to realize 0:34:28.530 --> 0:34:30.730 the king is part of the problem. And when you 0:34:30.730 --> 0:34:33.689 get the declaration in July, it's always he hath, he hath, 0:34:33.690 --> 0:34:37.770 he hath. Because the king was the only legal connection 0:34:38.010 --> 0:34:39.890 they had to Britain, they did not believe they were 0:34:39.890 --> 0:34:43.890 subject to parliament's authority, perhaps on the high seas, but 0:34:43.890 --> 0:34:46.810 not as soon as you got inside the colony. And 0:34:46.810 --> 0:34:52.410 so that's the context in which you get common sense. 0:34:53.090 --> 0:34:57.530 And it hit like a firecracker in the start of 76. 0:34:57.730 --> 0:35:02.890 Paine drops common sense or publishes common sense anonymously, and 0:35:02.890 --> 0:35:06.549 it spreads because he is a first in a high 0:35:06.590 --> 0:35:08.870 profile way to take it to the king. 0:35:09.110 --> 0:35:09.590 Mhm. 0:35:09.870 --> 0:35:13.310 To say the problem is the king is not looking 0:35:13.310 --> 0:35:18.510 out for your interests. The king is not working for you. 0:35:18.550 --> 0:35:22.070 He's working for someone else, perhaps himself, perhaps Britain, but 0:35:22.070 --> 0:35:24.190 not for the colonists. 0:35:24.670 --> 0:35:27.190 So at that time, as common sense hits with the 0:35:27.230 --> 0:35:30.230 with the force of a firecracker as as you say, 0:35:30.710 --> 0:35:35.150 is it generally a population that they feel perhaps independence 0:35:35.150 --> 0:35:39.350 is inevitable or is still hoping for reconciliation? And where 0:35:39.350 --> 0:35:41.350 does common sense enter that mix? 0:35:41.830 --> 0:35:46.190 They're still hoping for reconciliation among many people. Right. John 0:35:46.190 --> 0:35:48.950 Adams thought and others thought. Once the sword is drawn, 0:35:48.989 --> 0:35:52.670 throw away the scabbard. That is after Lexington and Concord 0:35:52.950 --> 0:35:56.629 in the spring of 75. It's just not happening. But 0:35:56.630 --> 0:35:59.390 most people weren't thinking that way. We think we've had 0:35:59.390 --> 0:36:02.110 we've worked out these things before. We'll settle it again. 0:36:02.310 --> 0:36:05.700 And it takes time for people to realize the king 0:36:05.700 --> 0:36:08.020 is not going to be there to save us. We're 0:36:08.020 --> 0:36:11.100 going to have to go our own way. And people 0:36:11.100 --> 0:36:14.220 who've always lived under the king in a British world, 0:36:14.219 --> 0:36:17.259 and they love being British, because to be British was 0:36:17.260 --> 0:36:20.140 to be connected to the freest people in the world, 0:36:20.140 --> 0:36:22.740 and the people who kept defeating the French. That's always 0:36:22.739 --> 0:36:25.979 good if you're British, of course. And so it was 0:36:25.980 --> 0:36:30.220 a big deal to repudiate their identity as British and 0:36:30.219 --> 0:36:34.339 their king. So Paine, with his brilliant rhetoric, remember, he'd 0:36:34.340 --> 0:36:38.060 only show up in, I think, late 74 from from England. 0:36:38.060 --> 0:36:41.020 And he wound up writing and he really had developed 0:36:41.020 --> 0:36:44.259 a terrific pen. And he writes common sense that says 0:36:44.260 --> 0:36:48.379 the problem is the king. And the problem isn't just 0:36:48.380 --> 0:36:51.580 the king. The problem is monarchy. So it's not just 0:36:51.580 --> 0:36:54.859 that you're staying connected to Britain. It is that it 0:36:54.860 --> 0:36:59.259 is absurd to have a king, and it is absurd 0:36:59.380 --> 0:37:02.319 for an island to rule a continent which addresses the 0:37:02.320 --> 0:37:07.040 second element, the imperial dimension. So people are still they're ambiguous, 0:37:07.760 --> 0:37:11.080 they're getting frustrated with the king, but all they've known 0:37:11.080 --> 0:37:14.279 is being British and being British is connected to the 0:37:14.280 --> 0:37:16.000 liberties they want to preserve. 0:37:16.840 --> 0:37:19.920 Doctor Richard Samuelson with us talking about common sense. We'll 0:37:19.920 --> 0:37:23.239 discuss remember the ladies and the atoms in just a 0:37:23.280 --> 0:37:28.800 few minutes. In common sense pains. Using biblical imagery, using 0:37:28.800 --> 0:37:33.520 moral language constantly. How important was was that? How important 0:37:33.520 --> 0:37:36.359 was religion to the revolutionary argument? 0:37:37.200 --> 0:37:40.040 Well, this is a very this is a Bible reading 0:37:40.040 --> 0:37:46.040 people and fairly religious people, mostly Protestant or dissenting Protestant 0:37:46.040 --> 0:37:50.799 than establishment Protestant. But. And so the images really hit. 0:37:50.800 --> 0:37:53.000 John Adams actually asked Paine about this. He said, yeah, 0:37:53.000 --> 0:37:55.759 I use that because it appealed to the people and 0:37:55.760 --> 0:37:59.160 the sermons. By the way, if you track the element 0:37:59.200 --> 0:38:02.230 parts of the Old Testament can be used in sermon. 0:38:02.230 --> 0:38:06.270 You're turning to the parts that pain quotes or Samuel says, don't. 0:38:06.270 --> 0:38:08.509 Don't go for a king Israel. That's not what God 0:38:08.510 --> 0:38:11.310 wants from you. Right? And that's mean. It's a punishment. 0:38:11.310 --> 0:38:13.469 You don't want to be like every other nation that 0:38:13.469 --> 0:38:16.350 has a king. They'll just take stuff from you, right? 0:38:16.390 --> 0:38:21.910 And so pain uses that very effectively in that Bible 0:38:21.910 --> 0:38:25.629 reading culture and Bible listening culture. By the way, still 0:38:25.630 --> 0:38:28.790 an oral culture to take the argument that it's absurd 0:38:28.790 --> 0:38:32.390 to have a king, right? And so he's hitting the 0:38:32.390 --> 0:38:34.550 right force the right way at the right time. People 0:38:34.550 --> 0:38:37.550 are trying to figure out what to do. And he's saying, God, 0:38:37.550 --> 0:38:40.110 we don't want you know, the problem is the king 0:38:40.350 --> 0:38:42.910 and you're starting to have this turn against the king 0:38:43.230 --> 0:38:47.110 and the turn against Britain. And remember, in their constitutional ideas, 0:38:47.430 --> 0:38:50.830 their only connection with Britain was the king. They were 0:38:50.830 --> 0:38:54.670 not subject to Parliament's jurisdiction, and they kept hoping the 0:38:54.670 --> 0:38:57.350 king would step in and stop it. And they're starting 0:38:57.350 --> 0:39:00.690 to realize that the King will not. And Paine helped 0:39:00.690 --> 0:39:05.850 move public opinion to the recognition that the King was 0:39:05.850 --> 0:39:07.570 not going to be there for them. And his turn 0:39:07.570 --> 0:39:12.009 to biblical imagery and biblical language was part of his appeal. 0:39:12.050 --> 0:39:14.890 He was using language that was familiar to the colonists 0:39:15.489 --> 0:39:18.210 to get them to think through this on moral and 0:39:18.570 --> 0:39:21.250 biblical terms that would appeal to them. 0:39:21.290 --> 0:39:24.170 Mhm. Let's step back for a minute. Just to give 0:39:24.170 --> 0:39:29.370 a little context. Look, common sense, uh, spreads through the colonies. 0:39:29.370 --> 0:39:31.210 And these days you think, well, you pick it up 0:39:31.210 --> 0:39:33.850 at the corner store or it's online or it's very 0:39:33.930 --> 0:39:36.969 it's very easy to access that sort of thing. How, 0:39:37.810 --> 0:39:42.130 how literally physically does common sense spread among the people 0:39:42.130 --> 0:39:43.810 back in 1776? 0:39:44.489 --> 0:39:49.009 In a few ways. Right. Um, it was published and 0:39:49.010 --> 0:39:53.150 there's a second edition in July, I think it's February 0:39:53.150 --> 0:39:56.960 14th as a date of Paine's introduction already. and to 0:39:56.960 --> 0:40:00.860 have 800 000 copies in a population of, what, 3 0:40:00.860 --> 0:40:03.560 million ish? And that's half the population is under 16. 0:40:03.880 --> 0:40:08.520 And it's excerpted in newspapers. And there were 2025 newspapers. 0:40:08.680 --> 0:40:10.919 And often this is an oral culture. So you'll hang 0:40:10.920 --> 0:40:13.319 out in the tavern or the pub, and people will 0:40:13.320 --> 0:40:16.800 read aloud extracts from common sense, and then they'll discuss 0:40:16.800 --> 0:40:19.320 it and talk about it, maybe ask to repeat the 0:40:19.400 --> 0:40:21.440 founding in the on the stage. This is an age 0:40:21.440 --> 0:40:24.360 where the popular where the people in the early 19th century, 0:40:24.360 --> 0:40:26.640 they demand encores, do that scene again. So I can 0:40:26.640 --> 0:40:29.480 imagine they would say, read that passage against the King again, 0:40:29.520 --> 0:40:32.880 where you call him the Royal brute, right. Or what 0:40:32.880 --> 0:40:35.960 he calls the, um, the, uh, the William the Conqueror, 0:40:36.160 --> 0:40:39.200 a French bastard and an armed banditti, you know, is 0:40:39.200 --> 0:40:41.439 the ancestor of of your king. This is the guy 0:40:41.440 --> 0:40:46.040 you Revere, right? And so it spread both through print 0:40:46.880 --> 0:40:52.160 and through sharing in before hearths and fireplaces and in taverns. 0:40:52.480 --> 0:40:55.310 And maybe as people are traveling on stages. So those 0:40:55.310 --> 0:40:58.390 who did so. It's just it's everywhere. Insofar as something 0:40:58.390 --> 0:40:59.670 could be everywhere at the time. 0:40:59.910 --> 0:41:02.910 Doctor Richard Samuelson with us talking about common sense as 0:41:02.910 --> 0:41:07.710 we walk up to America. 250 was was Paine admired 0:41:07.710 --> 0:41:11.069 by the founders? Did they did they like the work 0:41:11.070 --> 0:41:13.350 that he was trying to accomplish? Was he. Was he 0:41:13.350 --> 0:41:16.469 too much for some. Was he dangerous, unsettling for others? 0:41:17.110 --> 0:41:20.110 Well, it depends who you ask. Right. The John Adams 0:41:20.110 --> 0:41:22.149 said he has a better hand at tearing down the 0:41:22.150 --> 0:41:25.149 building up his theory of government than he does have 0:41:25.150 --> 0:41:27.830 the idea of. Essentially, we get together and we create 0:41:27.830 --> 0:41:29.870 a new government. He kind of almost has a. It's 0:41:29.870 --> 0:41:32.230 a religious ceremony. You take the king, you take the 0:41:32.230 --> 0:41:34.150 new law, you immolate it, and that's. You put a 0:41:34.150 --> 0:41:36.870 crown on it. The law is king, right? But he does. 0:41:36.870 --> 0:41:39.190 He's not much for checks and balances when you get 0:41:39.190 --> 0:41:42.109 into his actual political theory. And of course, he tried 0:41:42.110 --> 0:41:45.149 to get the French Revolution. His rights of man would 0:41:45.150 --> 0:41:48.630 be controversial here. There'd be different opinions about how sound 0:41:48.630 --> 0:41:52.190 his theory would be. And so it depends who you ask, 0:41:52.670 --> 0:41:55.089 just how much or. But one other thing to look 0:41:55.090 --> 0:41:57.689 at in common sense. He makes a radical distinction between 0:41:57.690 --> 0:42:00.210 society and government, and he thinks society is. When we 0:42:00.250 --> 0:42:03.650 come together naturally to pursue our goods and government has 0:42:03.650 --> 0:42:06.850 to exist because of our wickedness. People misbehave. And because 0:42:06.850 --> 0:42:09.210 of that, we got to we all got to suffer 0:42:09.210 --> 0:42:10.370 and have a government. 0:42:10.410 --> 0:42:10.890 Mhm. 0:42:11.050 --> 0:42:14.089 And the purpose of government is security, maybe safety and 0:42:14.090 --> 0:42:18.770 maybe freedom. But what does the declaration say? Safety and happiness. 0:42:19.050 --> 0:42:23.129 Happiness in the sense that is a life well lived, 0:42:23.130 --> 0:42:27.930 fully realized. Whereas Paine puts that in society outside of government. 0:42:28.410 --> 0:42:33.210 Maybe there's more room in the mainstream American political thought 0:42:33.210 --> 0:42:36.250 for the old notion that man is political by nature. 0:42:36.250 --> 0:42:40.009 Hence the citizen's engagement in politics is a good. It's 0:42:40.010 --> 0:42:43.410 not just a necessary evil, and in Paine's account it 0:42:43.410 --> 0:42:46.810 looks more like a necessary evil. So there's some lines 0:42:46.810 --> 0:42:50.130 of distinction there, but Paine. Of course, did yeoman service there, 0:42:50.330 --> 0:42:52.960 and of course, his great crisis essay right before the 0:42:52.960 --> 0:42:56.640 Delaware campaign. These are the times that try men's souls. 0:42:56.880 --> 0:43:00.040 He did an invaluable service to the public and moving 0:43:00.040 --> 0:43:04.760 public opinion against the King and for independence. 0:43:05.400 --> 0:43:08.479 You mentioned this earlier in the conversation, but pain in 0:43:08.480 --> 0:43:12.600 common sense is attacking the monarchy itself, and not just 0:43:12.840 --> 0:43:16.600 King George. How radical did that idea of attacking not 0:43:16.640 --> 0:43:19.960 one person King George, perhaps, but the monarchy, monarchy itself? 0:43:20.320 --> 0:43:22.920 How radical was that in 1776? 0:43:23.600 --> 0:43:27.319 That was it was a change. It was something they 0:43:27.320 --> 0:43:29.919 were working with. What's interesting is British nationality, of course, 0:43:29.920 --> 0:43:32.600 is bound up with the King. Britain to be a 0:43:32.600 --> 0:43:35.640 British subject. You're born a king soil. You essentially belong 0:43:35.680 --> 0:43:38.480 to the king. You can't cease being his subject without 0:43:38.480 --> 0:43:42.360 his explicit consent. Hence, signing the declaration was a bold 0:43:42.360 --> 0:43:44.879 act of defiance, because it's all the evidence you need 0:43:44.880 --> 0:43:48.399 in your treason trial. And so pain is attacking that 0:43:48.400 --> 0:43:50.660 whole concept. It's bound up your identity as a Briton. 0:43:50.660 --> 0:43:52.540 I love my king. I'm attached to my king. It's 0:43:52.540 --> 0:43:55.660 how you're raised. And so he's not just attacking that, 0:43:55.660 --> 0:43:58.940 attacking the root of monarchy and he mocks it. He 0:43:58.940 --> 0:44:02.340 says it's unbiblical. He says it's absurd and he's attacking. 0:44:02.340 --> 0:44:06.540 But it hit because it was time. It was timely. 0:44:06.540 --> 0:44:09.580 It wouldn't have hit a year earlier. Maybe the people 0:44:09.580 --> 0:44:12.020 were ready to think. They're thinking through this and think, 0:44:12.020 --> 0:44:17.300 what happens in, well, spring, early summer of 76. They've 0:44:17.300 --> 0:44:19.540 all long been fighting for the rights of Englishmen or 0:44:19.540 --> 0:44:22.460 the rights of Britons. The problem is they can no 0:44:22.460 --> 0:44:26.300 longer enjoy them so long as they are English or British. 0:44:26.300 --> 0:44:26.820 Mhm. 0:44:27.020 --> 0:44:28.700 And what I do in the blackboard I write rights 0:44:28.700 --> 0:44:31.779 of Englishmen. I cross out the word English, and they 0:44:31.780 --> 0:44:35.740 become the rights of men. Right. And so you're moving 0:44:35.739 --> 0:44:39.100 the move against monarchy and not just against George the 0:44:39.100 --> 0:44:41.900 Third is very much in line with that move. Once, 0:44:41.940 --> 0:44:43.739 in order to enjoy the rights of Englishmen, you have 0:44:43.739 --> 0:44:47.180 to stop being English. You also have to move against 0:44:47.180 --> 0:44:50.330 not just the king, but against monarchy itself. Or at 0:44:50.330 --> 0:44:52.970 least that's what they do. And Paine was invaluable that 0:44:53.010 --> 0:44:55.370 he hit the right people at the right time, the 0:44:55.370 --> 0:44:58.969 right way to make that argument against monarchy. 0:45:00.170 --> 0:45:03.810 So many conversations happening in this walk up to July 0:45:03.810 --> 0:45:07.689 of 1776, and we transition to another conversation between a 0:45:07.730 --> 0:45:12.650 husband and wife in March of 1776, this letter from 0:45:12.690 --> 0:45:16.770 Abigail Adams to John Adams, where she says this phrase, 0:45:16.770 --> 0:45:21.649 remember the ladies set up this moment for us, Doctor Samuelson. 0:45:21.890 --> 0:45:24.650 Where are Abigail Adams and John Adams when this famous 0:45:24.650 --> 0:45:26.290 letter exchange happens? 0:45:26.770 --> 0:45:29.810 John's in Congress. He's the leading advocate of independence. He's 0:45:29.850 --> 0:45:32.090 probably the first man in Congress on. You know, I 0:45:32.090 --> 0:45:33.930 don't know how many committees and in charge of most 0:45:33.930 --> 0:45:39.050 of them, but incredibly busy. And Abigail doesn't write enough. 0:45:39.250 --> 0:45:40.210 But, um. 0:45:40.489 --> 0:45:43.930 You know, he shows he begins the letter. It's March 31st, 76. Now, 0:45:43.930 --> 0:45:47.390 note this is about two weeks after Boston was evacuated. 0:45:47.630 --> 0:45:51.790 March 17th of 76 is when the British were forced 0:45:51.790 --> 0:45:55.630 out of Boston by the movement of cannon from captured 0:45:55.630 --> 0:46:00.270 Fort Ticonderoga with. Engineering of Henry Knox, who had been 0:46:00.270 --> 0:46:03.630 just a bookseller who studied military engineering. They used sledges 0:46:03.630 --> 0:46:05.950 in the winter to get these cannon across the state. 0:46:05.989 --> 0:46:06.509 Right. 0:46:06.989 --> 0:46:12.069 Before I-90, and they mounted them on on Dorchester Heights. 0:46:12.070 --> 0:46:14.589 And the British had to bug out, and that was 0:46:14.590 --> 0:46:15.950 a big deal. So now things look a little different 0:46:15.950 --> 0:46:17.950 than trying to where are they going next? But he's saying, 0:46:17.989 --> 0:46:19.790 and Abdul begins by saying, I wish you would ever 0:46:19.790 --> 0:46:21.150 write letters to me as half as long as I 0:46:21.190 --> 0:46:23.629 write you. And we don't know where the fleet's gone. 0:46:23.670 --> 0:46:26.910 But she begins with that. But then she says, I've 0:46:26.910 --> 0:46:29.830 sometimes been ready to think. The passion for liberty cannot 0:46:29.830 --> 0:46:31.870 be equally strong in the breast of those who have 0:46:31.870 --> 0:46:35.109 been accustomed to deprive their fellow creatures of theirs. And 0:46:35.110 --> 0:46:38.430 she's talking about Virginia and slavery, so she's thinking more 0:46:38.430 --> 0:46:42.950 largely about the implications of liberty. And it's interesting she 0:46:42.950 --> 0:46:47.380 turns from there in this letter though we facilitate ourselves 0:46:47.380 --> 0:46:53.500 for Boston being free. Well, I've longed to hear that 0:46:53.500 --> 0:46:57.020 you declared independency, by which the new Code of laws 0:46:57.219 --> 0:47:02.260 by which you will inevitably. You need to create, necessary 0:47:02.260 --> 0:47:04.259 to make. I desire you would remember the ladies, and 0:47:04.260 --> 0:47:06.940 be more generous and favorable to them than your ancestors. 0:47:07.540 --> 0:47:09.540 Do not put such unlimited power into the hands of 0:47:09.540 --> 0:47:13.460 their husbands. Remember, all men would be tyrants if they could. 0:47:13.460 --> 0:47:17.220 So those two parts of the letter are very much connected. 0:47:17.460 --> 0:47:21.700 This notion that the. The tyranny of slavery and the 0:47:21.700 --> 0:47:24.580 tyranny of men over women in which there is equality. Remember, 0:47:24.580 --> 0:47:26.259 this is a world of coverture. Women do not have 0:47:26.260 --> 0:47:29.180 a separate identity from their fathers when their children, from 0:47:29.180 --> 0:47:31.620 their husbands, when they're married. And of course, there's also 0:47:31.660 --> 0:47:34.739 the right of a husband to beat his wife. Abigail's 0:47:34.739 --> 0:47:37.580 pushing back against that, and probably to a certain degree, 0:47:37.580 --> 0:47:39.940 for the notion that she can hold property herself now 0:47:39.940 --> 0:47:42.420 that she's running the farm, say, why can't I legally 0:47:42.420 --> 0:47:45.680 manage the property as a reality. And so she's thinking 0:47:45.680 --> 0:47:49.600 about what? To whom? How does equality apply? It applies 0:47:49.600 --> 0:47:52.279 to women too. And she quotes she says all men 0:47:52.320 --> 0:47:55.680 would be tyrants if they could, quoting John Adams, her husband, 0:47:55.680 --> 0:47:59.880 back to himself. So women, the wives always do to us, right? 0:48:01.120 --> 0:48:04.600 So she's very much thinking, how far do these rights go? 0:48:05.320 --> 0:48:08.680 Once you open up the question of liberty? It applies 0:48:08.680 --> 0:48:12.239 to new situations. And, you know, as you move from 0:48:12.239 --> 0:48:15.279 the rights of Englishmen to the rights of men, what 0:48:15.280 --> 0:48:17.680 would truly be a free country? What's it going to 0:48:17.680 --> 0:48:23.000 look like as you're thinking about founding a new country 0:48:23.600 --> 0:48:25.840 that's no longer simply British? 0:48:25.920 --> 0:48:31.640 Mhm. Now, John's response to this is playful and somewhat 0:48:31.640 --> 0:48:34.080 dismissive at the same time. How should we? Well, I 0:48:34.120 --> 0:48:36.960 guess tell tell our listeners how he responds. And then 0:48:36.960 --> 0:48:38.360 how should we read his tone? 0:48:38.840 --> 0:48:41.879 He says, you know, he calls her tone saucy. Now, 0:48:41.880 --> 0:48:44.830 your saucy letter, right? He says, well, we knew was 0:48:44.989 --> 0:48:47.830 we were going along, knew people would rise up and 0:48:47.830 --> 0:48:51.110 demand liberty. Right. But now a new tribe has arisen. 0:48:51.110 --> 0:48:54.630 The most dangerous of them all. Right. And he says, 0:48:54.630 --> 0:48:57.270 you you know very well that you run everything. We're 0:48:57.270 --> 0:48:59.509 really you're really in charge. You kind of give us 0:48:59.510 --> 0:49:03.270 the illusion of being in power. He plays the henpecked husband, right. 0:49:03.510 --> 0:49:06.630 And there's some truth to that. Suppose in their marriage. 0:49:06.630 --> 0:49:09.670 But not entirely right. The law allowed it. And she. 0:49:09.830 --> 0:49:12.630 He planned. She's being saucy. He knows that. But she's 0:49:12.630 --> 0:49:15.589 also being serious. And she's a little frustrated that he 0:49:15.590 --> 0:49:18.790 didn't take her more seriously. Mhm. But if you read 0:49:18.790 --> 0:49:21.830 John Adams writings for the rest of his life, every 0:49:21.830 --> 0:49:23.870 now and then, he'll say, yeah, there's a serious question 0:49:23.870 --> 0:49:27.070 here about the rights of men and the rights of women. 0:49:27.550 --> 0:49:30.350 In what senses are men and women different? Therefore, law 0:49:30.390 --> 0:49:33.190 should be somewhat different. And in what senses are there 0:49:33.350 --> 0:49:35.750 they're equal, and therefore the law should be the same, 0:49:35.790 --> 0:49:38.190 say perhaps the right to vote. Adams thinks no. He 0:49:38.190 --> 0:49:41.290 thinks the family is a natural unit, but he understand 0:49:41.290 --> 0:49:44.210 one of his grandchildren just dismisses it and laughs it off. Says, no, no, 0:49:44.210 --> 0:49:47.009 this is serious question. We have to engage it. So 0:49:47.010 --> 0:49:50.649 on the fly in 76, he says, well, he kind 0:49:50.690 --> 0:49:53.450 of dismisses it, but long term, he knows this is 0:49:53.450 --> 0:49:57.090 a very serious question to raise as you move towards 0:49:57.090 --> 0:50:01.370 independence and towards equality. As we understood and outlined in 0:50:01.370 --> 0:50:04.850 the declaration, the question of equality of men and women 0:50:05.650 --> 0:50:09.730 as human or equally human adult, that's going to be 0:50:09.730 --> 0:50:14.650 raised and that's there. So note both slavery, equality of black, white, 0:50:14.969 --> 0:50:18.250 and the question of equality of men and women is 0:50:18.250 --> 0:50:22.649 all on the table. In the spring of 1776, those 0:50:22.650 --> 0:50:27.370 ideas already logically identified as coming out of the ideas 0:50:27.370 --> 0:50:30.250 that are part of the movement towards independence as you 0:50:30.250 --> 0:50:34.089 move against monarchy and for the rights of men. This 0:50:34.090 --> 0:50:36.410 is man, to use a shorthand in the Genesis one 0:50:36.410 --> 0:50:38.650 sense God created. This is, in English at least, male 0:50:38.650 --> 0:50:41.920 and female. He created them. God created man. In Genesis two, 0:50:42.080 --> 0:50:45.279 there's a dumb man and then Eve woman. So it's 0:50:45.280 --> 0:50:48.320 a sense that man is male and female. We're equal 0:50:48.320 --> 0:50:52.040 in some senses and different in some other ways. And that, 0:50:52.560 --> 0:50:54.799 added John and Abigail. They definitely raised that. And of course, 0:50:54.800 --> 0:50:59.400 John is a leading figure in Congress, and Abigail is 0:50:59.440 --> 0:51:02.279 pushing him to think about some of the more deeper 0:51:02.280 --> 0:51:05.440 implications of this move towards independence. She's a pretty serious 0:51:05.440 --> 0:51:06.280 thinker herself. 0:51:07.000 --> 0:51:12.520 She is. Is she expressing concerns and questions that that 0:51:12.520 --> 0:51:17.160 many women of this time in 1776 are perhaps asking 0:51:17.160 --> 0:51:20.359 privately or sharing amongst themselves? Or is this a woman 0:51:20.360 --> 0:51:22.680 that is clearly ahead of her time? 0:51:23.520 --> 0:51:25.880 Well, a certain number of women are she's friendly with mercy. 0:51:25.880 --> 0:51:30.000 Otis Warren, the Warrens, the Adams were close friends until well, 0:51:31.400 --> 0:51:34.760 until there's some conflicts about future politics. But not not 0:51:34.760 --> 0:51:37.780 that many. It's hard to tell because, um, we don't 0:51:37.780 --> 0:51:40.779 have the written records for women as much as do men. 0:51:40.780 --> 0:51:44.660 But women, remember, are very involved in the movement because 0:51:44.700 --> 0:51:46.980 to the degree that they were responsible for the boycott 0:51:47.020 --> 0:51:49.779 or as one joke in class, the girlcott of goods 0:51:49.780 --> 0:51:52.860 in the 1760s, they were the ones not buying British goods. 0:51:53.219 --> 0:51:56.660 When we stopped from. In order to protest the Stamp 0:51:56.700 --> 0:51:59.700 Act or the, um, the entire blocks or the, uh, 0:51:59.700 --> 0:52:02.180 the Townshend acts. And so they were involved in the movement. 0:52:02.180 --> 0:52:05.180 They're seeing themselves get involved in politics. But one thing 0:52:05.219 --> 0:52:07.700 to keep in mind is throughout history, when men go 0:52:07.700 --> 0:52:09.899 to war, women assumed duties on the home front. And 0:52:09.900 --> 0:52:12.620 some don't like the change when they get back. But 0:52:12.620 --> 0:52:15.779 in the American revolutionary era, you have the idea of equality, 0:52:16.020 --> 0:52:19.780 which gives you an argument for why you should keep 0:52:20.020 --> 0:52:22.660 some of the changes that have been made as opposed 0:52:22.660 --> 0:52:25.420 to simply, well, we temporary war happened. Yes, we have 0:52:25.420 --> 0:52:26.580 to step up, but we can go back to the 0:52:26.580 --> 0:52:30.060 way things used to be. And so that is one 0:52:30.060 --> 0:52:33.299 of the key elements of the story of the American Revolution. 0:52:33.900 --> 0:52:37.250 The question not of And so for what? To what degree? 0:52:37.290 --> 0:52:41.690 How does the principle of the equality of men, equality 0:52:41.690 --> 0:52:45.129 of humans apply in your new law? And remember, John 0:52:45.130 --> 0:52:47.370 Adams had written partly in Response to pain and others 0:52:47.370 --> 0:52:50.690 as pamphlet Thoughts on Government coming out in April of 76. 0:52:51.010 --> 0:52:54.770 How should we create a new government for a state, 0:52:55.410 --> 0:52:58.089 colony or state and not officially states yet? And he 0:52:58.090 --> 0:53:01.490 says when he checks and balances, we need separation of power. 0:53:02.489 --> 0:53:04.890 And he says we are living in a time when 0:53:04.890 --> 0:53:07.770 the greatest lawgivers of antiquity wish to have lived. So 0:53:07.770 --> 0:53:11.049 he's thinking about, we're making a whole regime like Lycurgus 0:53:11.050 --> 0:53:12.570 and Solon of the ancient world. 0:53:12.570 --> 0:53:13.090 Mhm. 0:53:13.610 --> 0:53:16.730 And so Abigail's pushing him, you know, think about this 0:53:16.730 --> 0:53:17.770 more deeply, John. 0:53:18.489 --> 0:53:21.649 Doctor Richard Samuelson talking with us as we walk up 0:53:21.650 --> 0:53:25.810 to America. 250 common sense. And remember the ladies. He 0:53:25.810 --> 0:53:29.489 is associate professor of government at Hillsdale in DC. And 0:53:29.489 --> 0:53:31.930 the next time we talk, we'll discuss the May 15th 0:53:31.969 --> 0:53:35.990 Revolution and the Lee resolution as we inch closer to 0:53:36.030 --> 0:53:39.230 July 4th. Doctor Samuelson, thanks so much for joining us 0:53:39.230 --> 0:53:41.750 here on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. 0:53:42.190 --> 0:53:43.830 Thank you very much. It's been great to be here. 0:53:44.230 --> 0:53:47.150 That will wrap up this edition of the Radio Free 0:53:47.190 --> 0:53:50.430 Hillsdale Hour. Our thanks to Heather MacDonald, author of When 0:53:50.469 --> 0:53:55.910 Race Trumps Merit, and Doctor Richard Samuelson from Hillsdale in DC. Remember, 0:53:55.910 --> 0:53:58.670 you can hear new episodes every week on this station. 0:53:58.830 --> 0:54:02.150 You also can find extended versions of some of our interviews, 0:54:02.150 --> 0:54:05.390 like with Heather MacDonald, or listen any time to the podcast. 0:54:05.390 --> 0:54:12.190 Find it@podcast.hillsdale.edu or wherever you get your audio. Until next week, 0:54:12.390 --> 0:54:16.630 I'm Scott Bertrand, and this has been the radio free 0:54:16.670 --> 0:54:17.710 Hillsdale Hour.