S1: Every week. Hillsdale College President Larry Arnn joins Hugh Hewitt
S1: to discuss great books, great men, and great ideas. This
S1: is Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network.
S1: More episodes@podcast.hillsdale.edu or wherever you find your audio.
S2: Morning. Glory. Evening Grace. America. That music means it's the
S2: last broadcast hour of the week. That means it's time
S2: for the Hillsdale Dialogue. Doctor Ron and I are done
S2: celebrating the semi sesquicentennial, and we're back into Churchill's World
S2: War Two memoirs, volume two. Their finest hour. Last week,
S2: Doctor Arnn, you were talking about, um, Churchill's comment to
S2: the French that those nations that die fighting rise again.
S2: And you're also talking about how the French collapse may
S2: have been, in part linked to the exhaustion of the
S2: French Republic after World War One. I am curious, as
S2: it occurred to me when we were talking, I wanted
S2: to ask you about it this week. When Reagan arrived
S2: after Vietnam and after Carter, he had to start again
S2: to rebuild sort of American fighting will. And he did
S2: it with Grenada. And then George H.W. Bush did it
S2: with Panama and then George W Bush. We went to
S2: war for 20 years and were exhausted again. And we
S2: got out ignobly from Afghanistan in 2021 and a haphazard,
S2: disastrous and deeply humiliating retreat. What do you make of
S2: the idea that Donald Trump is rebuilding the American capacity
S2: for force with this battle with Iran in a way
S2: that is necessary, limited, precise, and deadly when it's unleashed?
S3: Yeah. That's it limited Um, uh, we we fell into
S3: a period, uh, unique in American history when we were
S3: the only superpower. And so we thought we could do anything.
S3: And you mix that up with the principles of liberal imperialism,
S3: which include statements like, we can't be safe until the
S3: world is free. Uh, my favorite is Colin Powell saying,
S3: when we invaded Iraq the first time, after they had
S3: attacked a neighbor and the neighbor appealed to us for help,
S3: it means we can do that if we want to.
S3: But he said, if you break it, you own it. And, uh,
S3: that means that we have to fix it, right? Well,
S3: Trump hasn't said anything like that. What he said is
S3: we're going to stop them threatening us and our neighbors,
S3: and we're going to do what it takes to do that. And, uh,
S3: that means that it's up to us how far we go.
S3: So that's limited, Right? Because you can't study Churchill carefully
S3: without understanding his constant reluctance about and fear about war. Uh,
S3: he you know, you don't you don't do it for
S3: a demonstration. You do it because you have to. And
S3: you'll be less likely to have to if you're ready
S3: to do it. So that's the old wisdom, right? And
S3: I think.
S2: It's interesting that you bring up and that's not in
S2: our notes or our outline. Uh, General Powell, who of
S2: course became secretary of State Powell, but he was a general.
S2: He was a military man because Churchill has a not
S2: a jaundiced eye, but a skeptical eye about generals making policy.
S2: And it comes up in this chapter, chapter ten. General Weygand,
S2: who is their their boss of bosses, their number one general,
S2: he decides, he decides. The general decides that it's time
S2: to quit. And Churchill says he used his supreme political
S2: position far beyond the limits which his professional responsibility, as
S2: great as they were, were justified or required. He asserted.
S2: The right of a soldier to dominate the duly constituted
S2: government of the Republic, as did Marshal Patton. And I
S2: sense in Churchill a. I don't sense, I read in
S2: Churchill a great skepticism of generals stepping into the role
S2: of statesmen. AM I right about that? Oh, yes.
S3: Well, if they get elected right, they have to become statesmen. Right.
S3: But the idea that they get to decide. Remember, that's
S3: a that's a thing in human affairs. In every human organization,
S3: people have a job and they think because of that job,
S3: they can control more than that job. And they try
S3: to control things for which they don't have responsibility. Nobody
S3: gave general responsibility for the future and being of France,
S3: but he effectively exercised that authority for a time. And
S3: that was just wrong. And what Churchill thought was, you know,
S3: Churchill is a follower of the principles of the Declaration
S3: of Independence. And what do they say? The purpose of
S3: a government is to defend the rights of its people,
S3: and it gets its authority from their consent. Well, nobody
S3: consented to Vigan making those decisions. He just happened to
S3: have supposedly at least control of the military. And so
S3: there was nobody I mean, I mentioned last week that
S3: Victor Hanson writes about the amazing effectiveness of Britain in
S3: the Second World War, how much they got out of themselves. Right.
S3: And they mortgaged their future to do it. And Churchill
S3: didn't want to do that and always called it the
S3: unnecessary war. But now you're in the gang war, and
S3: somebody's got to command all the efforts of the nation
S3: toward victory. That's what he did. Well, there wasn't anybody
S3: at the top ready to do that? Uh, Churchill meets
S3: the son of Clemenceau from the First World War. The tiger,
S3: they called it. And at the end of the First
S3: World War, Clemenceau took power. And he did do that.
S3: And Churchill marveled at that and admired that very much,
S3: and did that himself later. Well, the son of Clemenceau
S3: Churchill Records, in these chapters that we're reading, he had
S3: the spirit of his daddy in him, and Churchill thought
S3: that was missing at the top.
S2: Well, he said Renault was not up to it. And
S2: this is a quote, uh, France would have needed a Cromwell,
S2: a Clemenceau, a Stalin or a Hitler. It's a and
S2: that's a silent reflection on himself. Capacity married to Will,
S2: married to, um, a country that's got the ability to
S2: rise to the occasion. As Victor Davis Hanson noted, he's
S2: not complimenting Stalin or Hitler's moral character. He is recognized.
S2: And I'm sure he's not a big fan of Cromwell,
S2: but is recognizing, uh, data, uh, there too. Um, what
S2: what Machiavelli. Well, put down as the essential ingredient. Sure.
S3: Uh, there's that charge against Donald Trump, the old one
S3: about the Playboy interview where he congratulates the Chinese on
S3: their strength. Well, he also says in that same interview
S3: that they're horrible. Their policies are horrible. But. And see,
S3: here's what I think is the distinction. Strength is urgently necessary.
S3: But Churchill was fond of saying, kindness is better than strength.
S3: But you actually need some strength in order to be kind.
S3: And so, you know, when you take a responsibility like that,
S3: if Hillsdale College fails, it'll be my fault, right? And
S3: that's why that's where I get my authority from the
S3: mission of the college, from its well-being, and from the
S3: people I work with. And I have to use it
S3: only for that. And it means that while I have
S3: the job, I'm stuck. Something goes wrong. It's my fault. Well,
S3: if you take that attitude, then you might be capable
S3: of command in an urgent situation. I've never been in
S3: a situation as urgent as the ones we're describing here,
S3: but all of us face in life urgent situations, and
S3: we have to discharge our responsibilities. That's what our authority,
S3: whatever it is we have, is for.
S2: That's so yeah, that's well put. Let's talk now about
S2: the the French fleet because it's a little known aspect
S2: of the war. But Churchill had spotted it not long
S2: after he became prime minister after Chamberlain stepped down. He
S2: begins to lobby Darlan, who's the the chief of naval operations.
S2: He's in command of the French fleet. But he's he's
S2: an admiral. He's not a minister. And he says to Darlan,
S2: we got to have the French fleet. We got to
S2: have the French fleet. And Darlan says to him, of
S2: course you'll get the French fleet. Well, France is collapsing
S2: and Churchill sends out his IOU for the fleet and
S2: Darlan doesn't deliver. He said I'd become the Minister of Maritime.
S2: What does that mean? What was he trying to do?
S3: Their bargain. So, first of all, a very pregnant letter
S3: in these chapters is the letter that Churchill wrote to
S3: Roosevelt on the 15th of June.
S2: Oh, yes.
S3: And I invite people to read that and see that
S3: Churchill appeals to Roosevelt entirely on the basis of the
S3: interest of the United States of America. Yep. He says
S3: if their fleet goes bad, that's a grievous fact. But
S3: what will be become of our fleet? I would never
S3: surrender our fleet to the Germans. But will I be
S3: in charge if there's an invasion? You have to think
S3: about that, because the British fleet was bigger than the
S3: American fleet at the time. And if you put it
S3: together with the French fleet, and he points this out.
S2: And the German.
S3: Fleet, that would.
S2: And the German way bigger.
S3: That's right.
S2: And so don't go anywhere, America. We'll come back and
S2: talk about FDR, Churchill, the considerations that went into everything.
S2: The dialogue is underway. All things hillsdale@hillsdale.edu. And everything. All
S2: the Hillsdale Dialogue at Q four hillsdale.com. I'm Hugh Hewitt
S2: with Doctor Larry Arnn, president of Hillsdale College, talking about
S2: Winston Churchill, World War II memoir. We're talking about the
S2: fleet and the very delicate dance of memos between Winston
S2: Churchill and Franklin Roosevelt at the time. Doctor Arnn.
S3: Another very delicate thing, because, you know, first of all,
S3: these memos are really great to read because you've got
S3: to remember Churchill's writing these things when he's traveling four
S3: times to France during the collapse of France and after
S3: he's been prime minister since the 10th of May, and
S3: all this is over by the middle of June. And
S3: he writes these memos to the French and to Roosevelt.
S3: The most important memos he wrote were to those two parties.
S3: And and, uh, uh, the French say to him, we
S3: want you to release us from our obligation not to
S3: make a separate peace. That's that's hard. You know, we're collapsing.
S3: We're suffering there. We're disorganized. They're going to take over
S3: France and subject the whole of France to the Gestapo.
S3: And we don't want that. We can make a deal
S3: to prevent that. Release us. Think of the strength of
S3: that appeal. And what does Churchill reply? Once he gives,
S3: he gives the reply twice. He gives it once. And
S3: he says, we are never going to waste any time
S3: recriminating against France, whatever it does. But this is not
S3: the last battle that will happen in England, and you
S3: should exhaust your resources all the way down to North Africa,
S3: if you must, to carry on the battle. Then they
S3: retire and. And Churchill. And who's with him? Beaverbrook, his
S3: good friend, who he gives him a huge Churchill compliment
S3: in this chapter. Always a good man under pressure. And
S3: Lord Halifax, a reformed appeaser there with him, and they
S3: retired to the garden and talk for half an hour
S3: and then come back. Churchill comes back and gives the
S3: same answer, and he gives that answer in writing again later.
S3: And then he tells Roosevelt. He gave that answer, that,
S3: in other words, I didn't agree with them, to release
S3: them from a pact that we made a blood pact,
S3: not to make a separate peace because we're going to
S3: fight on. And they should too. And that, you see that's.
S3: Aren't those.
S2: They are.
S3: Cataclysmic.
S2: What do you make of of FDR in this exchange
S2: for the benefit of the audience? Um, FDR writes France,
S2: encouraging them not to surrender and not to give up
S2: the fight. And Churchill, although it's very I went full
S2: Strauss in here, tried to read it 3 or 4
S2: times to figure out whether or not Winston Churchill was
S2: willing that FDR had agreed to publish the telegram, or
S2: whether FDR had actually agreed to publish the telegram and
S2: changed his mind. I can't decipher it. I so I
S2: can't say for certain whether or not FDR said, go
S2: ahead and publish my telegram, because Churchill thought it would
S2: buck up the French and Reynaud thought it would buck
S2: up the French, because FDR is saying, fight on, fight on.
S2: And FDR says, oh, the State Department says, I can't
S2: publish the Telegraph. What did you make of that by FDR?
S2: I thought it was disappointing.
S3: No, it's a good thing. uh, that, uh, we were
S3: reluctant to go into that war. Uh, we were reluctant
S3: to go into the First World War two. And, and
S3: we went into both of them upon being attacked. Right.
S3: And that's, and we didn't have agreements in advance of
S3: either of those wars that we would come to the
S3: defense of those countries. Roosevelt wanted to. And, and the
S3: reasons he wanted to are in that memo that Churchill
S3: wrote him. When Churchill and Roosevelt began writing each other,
S3: they write each other as former naval persons. Roosevelt had
S3: been assistant secretary to the Navy. And see, you have
S3: to make a link if you can, between the thought
S3: of the American founders, the authors of the Declaration of
S3: Independence and this policy in the Second World War. And
S3: that link is broken in part because Franklin Roosevelt was
S3: a modern liberal reinterpreting the Declaration of Independence into something else.
S3: I argue right? That's a big argument, right? We're not
S3: making it here, but it's also maintained because Roosevelt reads
S3: about what's going to happen to America if the seas
S3: are dominated by hostile powers. And that becomes a prospect
S3: that's open. Right. Roosevelt was. He was assistant secretary of
S3: the Navy. And, you know, the great, the great. What
S3: the great explainer of British power is a man named
S3: Alfred Thayer Mahan, who was a late 19th, early 20th
S3: century figure at the Naval Institute in America. And he
S3: wrote The Influence of Sea Power on history. And he
S3: it's a very powerful book, and it's still fundamental to
S3: strategic thinking in West today in China, too. Yeah. And
S3: what does it say? It says the cheapest, fastest way
S3: to to move goods. Goods around the earth is by sea.
S3: And so sea power matters a lot. It mattered very
S3: much to the founders of the country. And so, uh,
S3: Roosevelt knows that, right? And we've always been for freedom
S3: of the seas. We always had serious navy from the
S3: Revolutionary War on. And, and so to have that under
S3: the hands of a continental power, I mean, it's just
S3: a fact that the Chinese Navy is bigger than ours today.
S3: And China has a multiple of our shipbuilding capacity today.
S3: That's a serious fact.
S2: And did you notice, though, doctor, that when our Apache
S2: helicopter went down, we dispatched a drone made by Saronic.
S2: And it looks like, God forgive me. I hope I
S2: don't offend the PT boat people. It looks very much
S2: like a PT boat from World War Two or a
S2: swift boat from Vietnam, but it doesn't have anyone on it.
S2: It just goes and picks up our pilots. That's a revolution.
S3: Well, there's a very good. I just got it this morning.
S3: I haven't read it all yet, but there's a man
S3: named Dennis Blair who was a big naval commander in
S3: the Pacific. And he published an article about the question,
S3: Can China take Taiwan? And he says there's just a
S3: lot of developments that make that very doubtful now. And
S3: we can't rest on our laurels. But, you know, I mean,
S3: one of the things that's been displayed in Iran is
S3: that we have made a lot of progress against these.
S3: And with these drone weapons and in knocking them down,
S3: not having to spend a $2 million weapon to knock
S3: down a $30,000 drone. And so there's a lot of
S3: innovation going on right now. A lot of it comes
S3: from Anduril, and that's Palmer Luckey's company. And that's just
S3: awesome to me.
S2: It's awesome to me too. And there in Ohio, doctor
S2: or not. Michigan. There in Ohio. We'll come back. Hopefully
S2: I'll evade some anti Ohio talk from Doctor Arnn. Don't
S2: go anywhere America. Welcome back America. I'm Hugh Hewitt talking
S2: with Doctor Larry Arnn about the new technologies of war everywhere.
S2: A lot of it comes as well from Ukraine I'll
S2: remind you. Four years ago when the Russians invaded and
S2: we thought it would be a two week war, you
S2: made the comment. And then history has surprises like this.
S2: Zelensky fellow. Ukraine's a surprise. And the ability that they
S2: have demonstrated with drones is a remarkable surprise. I mean,
S2: world changing. Yeah.
S3: Yeah. And they're getting a lot of help.
S2: And we're helping them.
S3: You know. Yeah. Well, a lot of people are. And
S3: I probably especially us and you know, we're learning from
S3: that and, uh, uh, it, you know, we, it is
S3: a sad commentary. That we're in danger all the time now, right?
S3: And for much of American history, that wasn't true. And
S3: we're safer than anybody, at least anybody powerful. But we've
S3: got we're subject to immediate attack. And that means being
S3: ready and having a superior military at the cheapest possible
S3: cost is urgently needed to any republic like ours.
S2: Let me also, we're talking about naval power. And man, uh,
S2: the Strait of Hormuz demonstrates again that, uh, what seems
S2: like a fight far away with a country we know
S2: much about Oman and UAE and Iran is actually about
S2: the world's health. You can't allow international waterways to be
S2: dominated by a malign power by by any power, unless
S2: it's the Panama Canal and they own it, or we
S2: own it and gave it to them. You can't let
S2: the Straits of Malacca or the Strait of Hormuz or
S2: any of the narrow waterways, the Taiwan Strait, be dominated
S2: by one power, or the whole world suffers. That's why
S2: I think you mentioned that our Constitution specifically doesn't say
S2: anything about a standing army says we are to provide
S2: and maintain a navy that's in the Constitution.
S3: Yeah. That's right. Yeah. We didn't see that's and see
S3: put a point right. First of all, as I say,
S3: all proper reasoning about international security and foreign policy begins
S3: with the interest of the United States. Well, we're a
S3: net oil exporter and we hope to remain so. I
S3: hope we do. But we're also a huge oil importer,
S3: and that has to do with refining capacity and kinds
S3: of oil and which kinds we can refine and which
S3: kinds we produce and don't produce. And those are sticky problems, right.
S3: And so, you know, the world has a world price
S3: and we got to buy a lot of it. And so, yeah,
S3: the interest of the United States is wrapped up in this. And, uh,
S3: the Strait of Hormuz turns out to be a very
S3: sticky problem. Uh, and, uh, we will see because we haven't,
S3: we haven't, we have won the war in Iran so far.
S3: We will see how it comes out.
S2: Let me go back to last week and then bring
S2: it forward. Uh, you mentioned last week that Churchill wrote
S2: the prime Ministers of the dominions. In that letter, he wrote, uh,
S2: to Australia, New Zealand, Canada and South Africa, quote, Hitler
S2: will have to break us in this island or lose
S2: the war. He then on June 18th, gives this remarkable speech.
S2: We don't have the audio of it. Um, uh, which
S2: is the finest hour speech? Do you have an account
S2: of how the British people reacted to that speech?
S3: Yeah, many. It was, uh, that that is the one
S3: where like it is first of all, he did broadcast
S3: the speech. That is the one where people were now
S3: focused on the problem. Uh, you know, in other words, uh,
S3: when the war started, nobody knew what to expect, you know,
S3: and then to be losing on such a scale and
S3: so fast that violated the pace of the First World War, which,
S3: you know, they lost some battles in the beginning, but
S3: within three weeks that settled down into trench warfare and
S3: France didn't surrender. And what, six weeks, how long it took.
S3: So they're getting used to that. And then he gives
S3: the speech. And it's worth noting, you know, the peroration
S3: of the speech at the end is, uh, if the
S3: British Empire should last a thousand years. Men will still
S3: say this was their finest hour. Remember that? That's kind
S3: of a doleful prediction, too. This is the peak. What
S3: comes later is lower. And that means the Churchill against
S3: its will and never willing to do that. Another time
S3: in his life was putting all the chips on the table. Uh,
S3: that when he said to the French nations that die fighting,
S3: rise up again, those that surrender tamely are gone forever.
S3: He was prepared to live by that creed himself.
S2: And he, in fact, did live by that creed. He
S2: put all the chips on the table. More with doctor
S2: on coming up on the Hillsdale dialogue, all things hillsdale@hillsdale.edu.
S2: Stay tuned. Welcome back America. I'm Hugh Hewitt, we're talking
S2: about the French Navy with Doctor Larry Arnn, president of
S2: Hillsdale College, which is why he then goes on and
S2: he's very harshly critical of Admiral Darlan and very, uh,
S2: full of praise for de Gaulle. De Gaulle, he calls
S2: the Constable of France. It's a fine turn of phrase.
S2: He also says about Darlan. And he's such a beautiful writer.
S2: I had his great grandfather. Darlan is the admiral of
S2: the French Navy. His great grandfather had been killed at
S2: the Battle of Trafalgar. October 21st, 1805. So we're going
S2: back a long way from 1940, Churchill says. I therefore
S2: thought of him as one of those good Frenchmen who
S2: hate England, which is a fine turn of phrase, but
S2: it's a nice way to distinguish between French, who are
S2: who are defeatist and French, who just hate England. But
S2: he has to bomb, and I don't think many Americans
S2: know this now. Larry Arnn, the Brits had to destroy
S2: the French navy. They had to seize it wherever they
S2: could and scuttle it wherever they had to. It's really
S2: kind of a remarkable episode in history.
S3: Churchill was very reluctant to do that. Remember, the British
S3: Navy and the French Navy have been training in common
S3: for Since 1905, roughly. So there's no there's no British
S3: officer who doesn't know the French Navy and regard it
S3: as their closest ally, and now he's going to sink
S3: their ships. And Churchill tells in this book he tells
S3: the story in the in the French North African port
S3: of Oran is where the French navy went to under
S3: Darlan's orders. Churchill tells about the negotiations between. Is that
S3: in this chapter I'm kind of lost where we are now.
S2: Yes.
S3: Yeah. So it's in the book, um, he tells the
S3: story of the negotiations and the British commander comes and says,
S3: I need you to give us these ships or scuttle them.
S3: And the French, and it's very civil, their allies and
S3: they negotiate for several rounds, and the French admiral is
S3: conferring back. And then he tells him. Not going to
S3: do it. And the British says, we're going to sink
S3: your fleet. And they do. And that's a terrible thing.
S3: Churchill regretted it deeply. On the other hand, there's a
S3: lot of evidence that it had a big effect on
S3: Franklin Roosevelt because he remember in that thing we talked
S3: about where Roosevelt won't publish his statement. Well, he really couldn't,
S3: you know, because he, he he didn't have the authority
S3: to go to war. He didn't have the authority to help.
S3: But he's also hearing from the French. And the French
S3: don't sound like people are going to keep on. And
S3: they didn't. Right. And so when he sees Churchill and
S3: he later sent Harry Hopkins, who lived with Roosevelt in
S3: the white House for many years, very close to him
S3: when he sent him to talk to Churchill. And when
S3: he saw this destruction of the French fleet, he thought
S3: Churchill hinted that they were going to keep fighting. And
S3: therefore this is a enterprise we might invest in.
S2: Page 213 he writes, the elimination of the French navy had,
S2: as an important factor, almost at a single stroke by.
S2: Violent action produced a profound impression in every country. Here
S2: was this Britain, which had so many had counted down
S2: and out, which strangers had supposed to be quivering on
S2: the brink of surrender to a mighty power arrayed against her,
S2: striking ruthlessly at her dearest friends of yesterday, and securing
S2: for a while to herself the undisputed command of the sea.
S2: It was made plain that the British War Cabinet feared nothing,
S2: and would stop at nothing. This was true. He's right
S2: about that. If you kill all your friends, you're not
S2: going to. You're not going to stop.
S3: Yeah. Here we go. It, uh. You know, uh, I
S3: used to keep on my wall a war photograph of
S3: of Abraham Lincoln. And next to it, a war photograph
S3: of Winston Churchill. And beneath each of them quote. And
S3: the quote from Lincoln was, you don't fight wars by
S3: throwing by blowing rose water through elder stalk squirts. And
S3: the quote and the quote from Churchill is in the
S3: Canadian parliament. He in the middle of the war, he said, uh,
S3: we have not traveled all this way across the oceans,
S3: across the mountains, across the prairies, because we are made
S3: of sugar candy. And, uh, in other words, yeah, this
S3: guy is formidable. This guy is conquered Europe. We're not
S3: nothing either. And, uh, that is very important. After Alamein
S3: first really big land battle that the British one. Churchill
S3: celebrated that and said, you know, we know that our
S3: soldiers are prepared to die for their country. They can
S3: also kill for their country. And that, in other words,
S3: you're going to have to act like a winner if
S3: you're going to win.
S2: You do indeed have to act like a winner if
S2: you're going to win. Stay tuned. Doctor, I'll be right
S2: back after the break. All things hillsdale@hillsdale.edu, including their fabulous
S2: new course on the Odyssey. Welcome back America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. Doctor,
S2: we're about to talk about the rhetoric that is used
S2: deployed by Churchill. Well the the ability of his to
S2: message is really quite extraordinary. Uh, the gift of rhetorical flourish.
S2: Boy it's rare. FDR had it. Reagan had it. I
S2: think President Trump sometimes has it in conversation, but not
S2: in set piece rhetoric. Do you disagree with that? He's
S2: not a set piece, rhetorician.
S3: Yeah. Churchill. That's right. Churchill is, uh, I mean, there
S3: Churchill prepared everything, right? But he prepared it. But then
S3: in addition, there are these many times when he just
S3: waxed eloquent, like, here's a phrase that I liked. He
S3: writes to some of his colleagues. I really think that you,
S3: Lloyd and Amory, ought to be able to lift our
S3: affairs in the East and Middle East out of the
S3: catalepsy by which they are smitten. Who writes that? You know.
S2: Last thing I want to mention this week he writes
S2: to Smuts. A day or two weeks after his finest hour,
S2: Smuts is running South Africa. If Hitler fails to beat
S2: us here, he will probably recoil eastwards. Indeed, he may
S2: do this even without trying invasion. I just wanted to
S2: point out he's a brilliant man. He's forecasting the future
S2: in their darkest hour might be their finest hour, but
S2: he's saying, you know what? If he doesn't get this island?
S2: He's going to attack Stalin. And he's exactly right.
S3: So the. So this chapter ends. I'm going I'm going
S3: to go find it. The sentence really great. I can't
S3: find it, but it's. And it would all come to
S3: be just what he predicted.
S2: All right. We will come back next week to talk
S2: to Winston Churchill's. A remarkable gift of prophecy and rhetorical skill,
S2: but most importantly of statesmanship. Doctor Oren, thank you.
S1: Thanks for listening to the Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the
S1: Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes@podcast.hillsdale.edu or wherever you find
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