Scot bertram: Every week. Hillsdale College President Larry Arnn joins Hugh Hewitt
Scot bertram: to discuss great books, great men, and great ideas. This
Scot bertram: is Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network.
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Hugh Hewitt: Morning glory and evening Grace America. I'm Hugh Hewitt, welcome
Hugh Hewitt: to the Hillsdale Dialogue, the last broadcast hour of the week.
Hugh Hewitt: As is usual, when we are blessed, we have Doctor
Hugh Hewitt: Larry Arnn with us today. He's the president of Hillsdale College.
Hugh Hewitt: All things hillsdale@hillsdale.edu, including your application for next year. All
Hugh Hewitt: of you rising seniors, including online courses for everyone in
Hugh Hewitt: this audience that they ought to be taking, including a
Hugh Hewitt: new one on classical rhetoric and all the Hillsdale Dialogues
Hugh Hewitt: going back a decade now, all found@hughforhillsdale.com. In the next
Hugh Hewitt: two weeks, not today. In the next two weeks, we
Hugh Hewitt: will finish The Gathering Storm, this book. So do not
Hugh Hewitt: miss the next two two weeks. But we are taking
Hugh Hewitt: a break from that. We are also taping on Tuesday
Hugh Hewitt: before the deadline, President Trump set at 8 p.m.. So
Hugh Hewitt: I want to let you know that we're working under
Hugh Hewitt: that constraint this week because of both of our schedules.
Hugh Hewitt: Doctor Ian, how was your Easter.
Larry Arnn: Hillsdale, Michigan a good place to have Easter. Yeah. Easter
Larry Arnn: is of course very sad until right at the end.
Larry Arnn: But it was a great Easter.
Hugh Hewitt: I am curious about Easter services in that beautiful chapel.
Hugh Hewitt: Does your music program go all in?
Larry Arnn: Oh yeah. We um, so first of all, there's a really,
Larry Arnn: really great thing. Uh, Hillsdale College, as you probably know, is, uh,
Larry Arnn: all Christian denominations are thriving at Hillsdale College. So we
Larry Arnn: don't have Sunday morning services in our chapel, But on
Larry Arnn: Good Friday, there's a big alliance of churches that we
Larry Arnn: help to organize around here, and they have a good
Larry Arnn: Friday noon service. And it's just a chapel is full.
Larry Arnn: Lots of people in it. And of course, everybody looks
Larry Arnn: up and stares at it because it's the most beautiful
Larry Arnn: building around. And it's just a very fun thing. And
Larry Arnn: it's a college slash community thing.
Hugh Hewitt: And anyone driving through southern Michigan, even if you're not
Hugh Hewitt: looking for a college for your student or you're not
Hugh Hewitt: a student, just stop and see the chapel because it's astonishing.
Hugh Hewitt: The campus is also beautiful, with wonderful statues throughout and
Hugh Hewitt: incredible history. But the chapel is remarkable in America, probably
Hugh Hewitt: the equal of any chapel anywhere in America. And there
Hugh Hewitt: are a few beautiful ones by the same architect, uh,
Hugh Hewitt: Dominic Stroik, uh, his first name, right. Or is it
Hugh Hewitt: Duncan Stroik Duncan. Duncan. All right. But it's truly. He
Hugh Hewitt: may be the best guy working in America. Is he
Hugh Hewitt: doing your new buildings, by the way, doctor?
Larry Arnn: He's doing a war memorial right now. We're building a library.
Larry Arnn: We just finished a Masters of Classical Education building, and
Larry Arnn: it's going to be beautiful. I mean, the master's classical
Larry Arnn: is beautiful. It's just if you face the chapel, the
Larry Arnn: building immediately to the east or the left. West or left. Sorry.
Larry Arnn: And then the library to the right of the chapel
Larry Arnn: is the student union. And just beyond that is the
Larry Arnn: library that we are greatly expanding and giving it a
Larry Arnn: classical look throughout. And it's those those two things are
Larry Arnn: going to be I mean, our quad is very beautiful.
Larry Arnn: It's soon to be harmonious and beautiful and more beautiful.
Hugh Hewitt: I think we have we have serious things to talk about.
Hugh Hewitt: We have to talk about destroying things in a moment.
Hugh Hewitt: So I want to make sure we lift up the
Hugh Hewitt: fact that beautiful things are being built in the world,
Hugh Hewitt: especially at Hillsdale College. I also want to lift up
Hugh Hewitt: the fact that a second of your alumni, Philip Wegman,
Hugh Hewitt: joined the Wall Street Journal this week, and I was
Hugh Hewitt: talking to him offline. You're taking Hillsdale graduates are taking
Hugh Hewitt: over media. I'm very, very pleased with this.
S4: Well, a lot of it, yeah. Yeah.
Larry Arnn: Yeah. Phil Wegman is a great kid. I had him
Larry Arnn: in class and his brother too, and he's thriving. He
Larry Arnn: I remember he's what he's worked for real Clear Politics,
Larry Arnn: I think, and several outlets. And he got admitted to
Larry Arnn: the presidential briefings in the white House. And that was
Larry Arnn: a big deal. And of course, you know, in my
Larry Arnn: line of work, you get to watch him grow up
Larry Arnn: and they go on and do great things. And I
Larry Arnn: remember Phil and I corresponded when he found out he
Larry Arnn: was going to get to do that. And I was
Larry Arnn: so excited for him. And now he's at the Wall
Larry Arnn: Street Journal. So yeah.
Hugh Hewitt: I.
Larry Arnn: Think I.
Hugh Hewitt: Think he is now at the best news platform in America,
Hugh Hewitt: as is Jack Butler over at their editorial page to
Hugh Hewitt: Hillsdale Ians. So your your effort to take over the
Hugh Hewitt: world is proceeding apace now. Let's turn to the very
Hugh Hewitt: serious stuff tonight at 8 p.m., which we will be
Hugh Hewitt: broadcasting this on Friday. There's a deadline that President Trump
Hugh Hewitt: has re-emphasized. All the bridges and the power plants get
Hugh Hewitt: blown up. Those are not war crimes, by the way.
Hugh Hewitt: They're all dual use. I just want to assure people
Hugh Hewitt: who have been reading left wing blogs and hysterical commentators.
Hugh Hewitt: Bridge is a classic bridge over the river of Toko RI,
Hugh Hewitt: or the Bridge of Toko RI and Bridge Over the
Hugh Hewitt: River Kwai. These are all traditional military targets, as are
Hugh Hewitt: power plants used by the IRGC. What do you make
Hugh Hewitt: of the reaction to the threat? And we're out on
Hugh Hewitt: prediction limb here. I think he's going to do it.
Hugh Hewitt: What do you think, doctor? Answer.
S4: Well, I'm.
Larry Arnn: Happy to report that I don't know uh and.
S4: And, uh.
Larry Arnn: And we, uh, can't know. And yeah, I, I do,
Larry Arnn: I'm of the opinion that he understands that we can't know, uh, uh,
Larry Arnn: of the war effort so far. It's just awesome. Uh,
Larry Arnn: the hardest part. Uh, more than 50% of success is
Larry Arnn: at the end. And how do we end it? Uh,
Larry Arnn: one way to end it, uh, I mean, first of all,
Larry Arnn: there are some definite good things that have happened here
Larry Arnn: so far that are beyond question. One of them is
Larry Arnn: the war making power of Iran is set back, and
Larry Arnn: that's good. They use it to attack us and friends
Larry Arnn: of ours. Uh, a second thing is our relations with
Larry Arnn: the Gulf states seem to have been thriving. And I
Larry Arnn: think that's partly because there's something really good going on
Larry Arnn: in some of those Gulf states. They have diminished their support,
Larry Arnn: and some of them ended their support of the crazy
Larry Arnn: forms of Islam. They're not all as crazy as some are,
Larry Arnn: and some of them are probably not crazy, but I'm
Larry Arnn: not expert enough to be sure of that. It's certainly
Larry Arnn: a very big and important thing, and it ain't going
Larry Arnn: to go away. And so it's nothing but good for
Larry Arnn: the world if it moderates. And so one possible end,
Larry Arnn: I mean, first of all, we've got those two things
Larry Arnn: and those are good. Uh, the question of the Strait
Larry Arnn: of Hormuz cuts in two different directions. Um, because of
Larry Arnn: all the great powers in the world, we're the ones
Larry Arnn: who need it the least. And this has given Trump
Larry Arnn: an opportunity to make a point more forcefully than he's
Larry Arnn: been making ever since he emerged into politics. And that
Larry Arnn: is the people closest to the danger most affected by
Larry Arnn: the danger need to carry the main burden of the danger,
Larry Arnn: or at least they need to pitch in as much
Larry Arnn: as they can. And. And the Strait of Hormuz is
Larry Arnn: a very hard nut to crack, I think, and they
Larry Arnn: should crack it, and maybe we should help them crack it.
Larry Arnn: So I even think, you know, but I don't I
Larry Arnn: don't know, first of all, we don't know. It's a
Larry Arnn: very fluid situation. The president is talking to us and
Larry Arnn: to the Iranians at the same time. And everything, everything
Larry Arnn: he says is conditioned by that combination. And so that's
Larry Arnn: why I don't know what he's going to say tonight
Larry Arnn: or do tonight. I think, you know, one strategy that's
Larry Arnn: appealing to me for ending the war is, uh, walking
Larry Arnn: away and continuing to build up the Gulf states. And
Larry Arnn: I think, by the way, we, uh, I read a
Larry Arnn: very intelligent thing the other day. And remember, the word
Larry Arnn: intelligent is not the same thing as true, because these
Larry Arnn: are all things that are hard to know, right? But
Larry Arnn: this intelligent thing that I read said that we have
Larry Arnn: actually gained massive leverage in the world because we're an
Larry Arnn: energy exporter and the main competitive world regions in the
Larry Arnn: world that compete with us on that are Venezuela, whose
Larry Arnn: disposition has changed, and the Gulf states, and both of
Larry Arnn: them are sort of brought around to a better place,
Larry Arnn: at least Venezuela. So the point is, maybe we've gotten
Larry Arnn: stronger from this. That's to be proved and seen with time.
Larry Arnn: But that's one of the ways you judge a war.
Larry Arnn: Are you stronger after it's over or are you weaker?
Hugh Hewitt: And I think it's going to be very hard for
Hugh Hewitt: us to emerge weaker from this. But I think it
Hugh Hewitt: could go on. I've been telling, uh, my friends I
Hugh Hewitt: expect it to be over in early June, but not before.
Hugh Hewitt: And I think that includes cleanup. But I agree with
Hugh Hewitt: you completely that he's talking to the Iranian people and
Hugh Hewitt: the Iranian elite through his post, primarily to whomever is
Hugh Hewitt: running that country during the rescue, which we'll talk about
Hugh Hewitt: after the break. We hit a command bunker with more
Hugh Hewitt: than 50 IRGC senior leaders in it, because they weren't
Hugh Hewitt: expecting in the middle of this command, this amazing search
Hugh Hewitt: and rescue operation, they were not expecting the B-2s to
Hugh Hewitt: arrive from the Midwest of America and drop the massive
Hugh Hewitt: Ordnance penetrators on their Supersecret command bunker. That wasn't super secret.
Hugh Hewitt: So for the third time in five weeks, they've had
Hugh Hewitt: a mass casualty event among the leadership meeting. They don't learn,
Hugh Hewitt: but we'll talk more about that right after the break.
Hugh Hewitt: All things hillsdale@hillsdale.edu. Of course, all the Hillsdale dialogues are
Hugh Hewitt: found at hue for hillsdale.com. I'll be right back with
Hugh Hewitt: Doctor Orange. Stay tuned. Welcome back America. Hugh Hewitt with
Hugh Hewitt: Doctor Larry Arnn, president of Hillsdale College. Everything about Hillsdale is@hillsdale.edu.
Hugh Hewitt: You can sign up@hillsdale.edu for the Imprimis newsletter for all there.
Hugh Hewitt: I know dozens of free online courses that will make
Hugh Hewitt: you smart and maybe wise. And all of our previous
Hugh Hewitt: Hillsdale dialogues are found at hue for hillsdale.com. I want
Hugh Hewitt: to ask you about your reaction to you had a
Hugh Hewitt: child in the American military. I've had one in the
Hugh Hewitt: American military. I still have a son in law and
Hugh Hewitt: a nephew on active duty, and I have never been
Hugh Hewitt: more amazed in my lifetime. And TB was always the
Hugh Hewitt: greatest display of daring and moxie that I'd ever seen.
Hugh Hewitt: But that was against Uganda. And Israel had the element
Hugh Hewitt: of surprise beyond any element of surprise. But I think
Hugh Hewitt: this past weekend the rescue of these downed airmen was
Hugh Hewitt: just Astonishing. How did you react to it?
S4: Well.
Larry Arnn: I, um, it's two days old now, but I watched, uh,
Larry Arnn: there's a guy on YouTube named Ward Carroll.
S4: Yup.
Larry Arnn: He's got another guy named Jack who joined him, and they.
Larry Arnn: And what they are is old military jocks. I mean,
Larry Arnn: they're not that old, but they're retired or out of
Larry Arnn: the military.
Hugh Hewitt: Ward's younger than I know. Ward. Yeah, Ward's a fighter pilot.
S4: Yeah. Yeah.
Larry Arnn: That's pretty amazing. You know, I hear these guys talk
Larry Arnn: for an hour about what's going on. First of all,
Larry Arnn: they know all the weapons. Second of all, they're getting
Larry Arnn: intelligence all the time while they're talking, and they call
Larry Arnn: it that. And sometimes it's just something they read on X,
Larry Arnn: and sometimes they'll hold up a paper that somebody sent him.
Larry Arnn: And they know a lot of people who are involved
Larry Arnn: and they're just marveling at this, right. And, uh, you know,
Larry Arnn: questions come up like apparently in the Air Force, there's
Larry Arnn: a team of people whose specialty is pilot rescue. That's
Larry Arnn: what they do. And they're fairly, very tough and very
Larry Arnn: good at it. They go in harm's way. That's an
Larry Arnn: expression they love and they go in harm's way. You know,
Larry Arnn: and there are a lot of people in the military
Larry Arnn: who don't go in harm's way. And so they make
Larry Arnn: that distinction all the time. Well, I don't think those guys. Well, anyway,
Larry Arnn: for some reason, maybe those guys were involved and maybe
Larry Arnn: they weren't. But Seal Team six was involved. And then
Larry Arnn: we use Hercules. And those are precious because we don't
Larry Arnn: make any more. And they're extremely versatile. And we didn't
Larry Arnn: use the Osprey. And the Osprey is a marine mostly
Larry Arnn: used plane. I think that can take off like a
Larry Arnn: plane and do 250 knots, which is some number bit
Larry Arnn: higher than miles an hour, I think. And it can
Larry Arnn: also hover land up and down straight. Why didn't they
Larry Arnn: use the Osprey? Well, maybe it wasn't close enough. So
Larry Arnn: they go on about all that. But the point is
Larry Arnn: they were more and more than 70 aircraft involved in
Larry Arnn: this thing.
S4: Yep.
Larry Arnn: And, uh, we didn't take any casualties. There was a
Larry Arnn: firefight in the middle of it. We used the big
Larry Arnn: bombers B one. They said, uh, and we sealed off
Larry Arnn: the area as best we could. There's still a firefight.
Larry Arnn: And this colonel, still unnamed at this, uh, at this talking,
Larry Arnn: he had a bad ankle, maybe broken, maybe sprained. And
Larry Arnn: he went up 7000ft in a mountain to hide in
Larry Arnn: a crevice crevasse.
Hugh Hewitt: The detail, he had been knocked out. He had been
Hugh Hewitt: out for hours when he woke up and realized where
Hugh Hewitt: he was and then got it together. He's not young, either.
Hugh Hewitt: He's an oh six. He's not a young guy.
S4: Yeah, yeah.
Larry Arnn: So he's a big deal, right? And, uh, and he's
Larry Arnn: a weapon specialist operator or something. And, uh, that's, that's
Larry Arnn: how they, and they got all these Acronyms. And then
Larry Arnn: once in a while, intelligence will come in while these
Larry Arnn: two guys are talking and, and, uh, it'll have an
Larry Arnn: acronym in it and they don't know what it is.
Larry Arnn: And that's all fun, you know, because they know all
Larry Arnn: the acronyms almost. And, uh, yeah. And, and we went
Larry Arnn: and got that guy and a lot of people were involved.
Larry Arnn: I mean, that means hundreds of people were involved actively
Larry Arnn: there in the forms of attack. We we don't make
Larry Arnn: C-130s anymore. And we haven't settled on a replacement yet.
Larry Arnn: And then also we used little birds, which are little
Larry Arnn: bitty helicopters that are very lethal and carry 6 or
Larry Arnn: 8 troops at a time and carry some guns. So
Larry Arnn: we use that in the C-130s and we use something else.
Larry Arnn: It's a lighter, more modern version of the C-130 that
Larry Arnn: doesn't carry as much stuff. And so we had to
Larry Arnn: leave some stuff and we and the point is. Yeah.
Larry Arnn: And the stuff we left, uh, they had pictures of it.
Larry Arnn: We destroyed it. We left 1 or 2 C-130s or
Larry Arnn: one and two. 1 or 2 little birds. Couldn't get
Larry Arnn: them out. And so we bombed them from the air
Larry Arnn: into smithereens. And darned if they didn't have a picture
Larry Arnn: of that. And it looked like devastation itself. But, uh, so,
Larry Arnn: you know, precision bombing is a major development in human
Larry Arnn: history and.
Hugh Hewitt: Its impact on our adversaries not named Iran. Iran. We
Hugh Hewitt: got two minutes to the break. What do you think
Hugh Hewitt: is the impact on our adversaries not named Iran, of
Hugh Hewitt: doing that mission?
S4: Well, I think.
Larry Arnn: The Gulf states are important, and I think Trump knows that.
Larry Arnn: And I've learned since he gave a speech that I
Larry Arnn: liked a long time ago, uh, months ago, after he
Larry Arnn: got reelected, he went over there and he gave a
Larry Arnn: really tour de force speech with a room full of
Larry Arnn: Arabs in Qatar, I think. And he said, you know,
Larry Arnn: you guys have done great things here according to your principles.
Larry Arnn: We're doing great things. We're going to trade, we're going
Larry Arnn: to get along. We're going to all get more prosperous.
Larry Arnn: And if anybody tries to hurt my country, I'm going
Larry Arnn: to kill them. That was more or less his speech.
Larry Arnn: And it was kind of a new and I want
Larry Arnn: to make this point. What's different about the this Middle
Larry Arnn: East war, whether it works out or not and it
Larry Arnn: may not, is that we are not saying that the
Larry Arnn: only security for us is democracy everywhere in the world.
S4: You bet.
Larry Arnn: That is a good. That is beyond our power to produce.
Larry Arnn: And it makes for infinite warfare.
Hugh Hewitt: A recognition of a limiting principle that has gone unremarked upon. Actually,
Hugh Hewitt: until you just said it right now. Don't go anywhere, America.
Hugh Hewitt: I'll be back with Doctor Oren right after this, except
Hugh Hewitt: a hillsdale.edu or hue for hillsdale.com. Welcome back America. Doctor
Hugh Hewitt: Larry Arnn is the president of Hillsdale College, which it
Hugh Hewitt: is high season for admissions, and I'm sure it's high
Hugh Hewitt: season for disappointment. Up at Hillsdale and high season of
Hugh Hewitt: appeals to the president. Uh, so good luck there, doctor. Aaron,
Hugh Hewitt: do you get appeals to the president after admissions season decisions?
Larry Arnn: Always. Uh, I didn't used to, but now I do.
Larry Arnn: It's gotten kind of hard to get in. And, uh,
Larry Arnn: I remember years ago, I said to the admissions counselor,
Larry Arnn: I said, he said, how many applications do we want?
Larry Arnn: I said a lot. He said, how will we know
Larry Arnn: when we have enough? I said, we probably never will.
Larry Arnn: I said, but, uh, because, you know, it's I can
Larry Arnn: tell you the conditions of success in higher education if
Larry Arnn: you want, but it has very much to do with
Larry Arnn: how bad you want to. In other words, there's a
Larry Arnn: thing that we can all have if we choose to have.
Larry Arnn: And that is an urgent wish to learn. And if
Larry Arnn: we have that, we can learn. Anyway, I said, maybe
Larry Arnn: I'll be able to tell when important people start calling
Larry Arnn: me about their kids and I won't be able to
Larry Arnn: help them. And that happens now.
Hugh Hewitt: Ah, well, my my friends who run colleges say the
Hugh Hewitt: most difficult issues are alumni, children and parking for faculty.
Hugh Hewitt: I don't think you have the latter problem. So let
Hugh Hewitt: me move on to the next question. You have a
Hugh Hewitt: brand new online course, Classical Logic and Rhetoric, which I
Hugh Hewitt: would recommend everyone in the country to investigate over@hillsdale.edu. President
Hugh Hewitt: Trump's rhetoric is not classical. He is a reality TV
Hugh Hewitt: trained developer who uses Truth Social and X. What do
Hugh Hewitt: you make of his rhetoric since it's not classical?
Larry Arnn: Well, you can use the classical tools to analyze them.
Larry Arnn: First of all, obviously President Trump's rhetoric is effective. Never
Larry Arnn: mind that it puts a lot of people off. It
Larry Arnn: attracts more. I mean, in elections at least more. It
Larry Arnn: is unique in my knowing, because here's a guy who
Larry Arnn: talks about himself all the time and only and only
Larry Arnn: has one kind of adjective, the superlative. I've never seen
Larry Arnn: that before. And, uh, he makes that work better than
Larry Arnn: anybody I've ever seen. Uh, I've never seen anybody try
Larry Arnn: before to that extent. I have been fitted in my
Larry Arnn: life to sit directly in front of him 4 or
Larry Arnn: 5 times and watch him give a speech, and I
Larry Arnn: think I can tell that he means it. Uh, I
Larry Arnn: here's what he means. I mean, first of all, he
Larry Arnn: does have a wonderful sense of humor. And a lot
Larry Arnn: of what he says is for effect. And when I
Larry Arnn: say he means it, I think he knows the difference.
Larry Arnn: Probably because if you just watch his face when he's
Larry Arnn: talking and there you are. If you're sitting there, you
Larry Arnn: you know, I'm not an important man in the Trump administration.
Larry Arnn: I just help them with the Declaration of Independence. Uh,
Larry Arnn: but I've been around them some and, uh, and I,
Larry Arnn: I think he means it, and I think he makes
Larry Arnn: it work and yeah, so, but he's very, uh, singular,
Larry Arnn: maybe unique, I don't know, and I think he means it.
Hugh Hewitt: And that's the one thing I'll add to that. I'll
Hugh Hewitt: add Doctor Aaron. I've had the opportunity to interview him
Hugh Hewitt: and question him in public more than 30 times. And
Hugh Hewitt: I have learned he is very unique because he is
Hugh Hewitt: unrestrained by the conventions that attend most politicians. I'm. I
Hugh Hewitt: think politicians are is a fine thing to be. I
Hugh Hewitt: think you to aspire to want to be a political
Hugh Hewitt: leader is a fine thing to be. But I've been
Hugh Hewitt: rereading Battle Cry of Freedom by McPherson about World War Two,
Hugh Hewitt: about the Civil War, and Lincoln would always throw away
Hugh Hewitt: the letters he'd write to people like George Meade because
Hugh Hewitt: they became intemperate. This is not a problem or a
Hugh Hewitt: restraint that President Trump feels. Do you agree with me
Hugh Hewitt: on that?
Larry Arnn: Well, I think he uses the fact that he transgresses
Larry Arnn: that artfully. I had an argument with a friend of mine,
Larry Arnn: a good man, and who was and is a never Trumper.
Larry Arnn: And he said, how can you believe a word he says?
Larry Arnn: And I said, well, there are two reasons this isn't
Larry Arnn: a public argument. One time, a kind of debate. We
Larry Arnn: had several hundred people there. I said, there are two reasons.
Larry Arnn: I said, one is he's been saying the main things
Larry Arnn: he's saying for as long as he's been talking about politics.
Larry Arnn: And at that time, the earliest instance I knew were
Larry Arnn: in the late 80s. This is in 2015. The second
Larry Arnn: reason is he does say it so outrageously that people
Larry Arnn: get to thinking he means it. And that's a point.
Larry Arnn: How do you, uh, like, uh, in politics, you know,
Larry Arnn: when you're beset with, uh, controversy. Every word you say
Larry Arnn: and any word you say can echo around the world
Larry Arnn: in an instant. One of the things you learn is
Larry Arnn: kind of bureaucratese, you know? Yeah.
Hugh Hewitt: And repetition, which he uses, he uses repetition. I'll be
Hugh Hewitt: right back with Doctor Arnn. Don't go anywhere except to hillsdale.edu.
Hugh Hewitt: We're going to talk birthright citizenship and the attorney general
Hugh Hewitt: right after this. Welcome back America. I'm Hugh Hewitt since
Hugh Hewitt: last doctor and I spoke on the Hillsdale dialogue all
Hugh Hewitt: things hillsdale@hillsdale.edu. There have been two major changes in the cabinet.
Hugh Hewitt: The Department of Homeland Security is now headed by former
Hugh Hewitt: Senator Markwayne Mullin, and the attorney general is now acting
Hugh Hewitt: Attorney General Todd Blanche, Attorney General Pam Bondi out. I
Hugh Hewitt: don't know any of the back stories. They're always more
Hugh Hewitt: complicated than people know until you talk to the principals.
Hugh Hewitt: But I do know that the job of being attorney
Hugh Hewitt: general requires great talent. It might be, I think, doctor,
Hugh Hewitt: on the most important job in the cabinet, because the
Hugh Hewitt: president can intuit and can override as secretary of state
Hugh Hewitt: or or Secretary of Transportation, he can understand that. But
Hugh Hewitt: when you talk to the Attorney General, you're talking about
Hugh Hewitt: the corpus of American law and the the fact that
Hugh Hewitt: we are a republic of laws, and that individual has
Hugh Hewitt: to be able to translate and persuade. And he has
Hugh Hewitt: not had great success with that, though. Bill Barr got
Hugh Hewitt: along with him fine until after the election of 2020,
Hugh Hewitt: and then they fell out. What do you think he
Hugh Hewitt: needs in the AG's office? I've worked for both Ed
Hugh Hewitt: Meese and William French Smith. I know you can be
Hugh Hewitt: a vastly different character and be a good attorney general.
Larry Arnn: Yeah, well, I know Ed Meese well, and I met
Larry Arnn: William French Smith, but Ed Meese was, you know, a
Larry Arnn: friend of Ronald Reagan from early days. That's a good thing,
Larry Arnn: especially if you because you know, what you basically said
Larry Arnn: is you have to know the law and you have
Larry Arnn: to you have to have the purposes of the president
Larry Arnn: in your heart and mind, and you have to pursue
Larry Arnn: them legally. And that takes artfulness. You need to be
Larry Arnn: a really good lawyer. You know, I will tell you,
Larry Arnn: I think Pam Bondi, I had a very high opinion
Larry Arnn: of her. And I don't know what all this is about.
Larry Arnn: I do have a student who worked for him her
Larry Arnn: in a high place and he admires her. So I
Larry Arnn: have nothing but good words for her. And. But I
Larry Arnn: don't know. And I think he's looking for a highly
Larry Arnn: skilled attorney who has his agenda in mind.
Hugh Hewitt: And I don't want to I don't want to stretch
Hugh Hewitt: what the job of a college president is. But it's complex.
Hugh Hewitt: It's got thousands of people depending upon it, and you
Hugh Hewitt: have to have a general counsel and outside counsel, and
Hugh Hewitt: they have to work with you. A non-lawyer, but who
Hugh Hewitt: knows a lot about the law. And they have to
Hugh Hewitt: be able to be very, very specific about what you
Hugh Hewitt: can and cannot do. And you've been through some perilous
Hugh Hewitt: times when the governor of Michigan wanted to come after you.
Hugh Hewitt: And what did you want from your general counsel, which
Hugh Hewitt: is what a president needs from their AG uh, what
Hugh Hewitt: is the law and what I can do? AM I
Hugh Hewitt: right about that?
Larry Arnn: Yeah, it depends on two circumstances. It depends on circumstances
Larry Arnn: a lot. But you always want two things. One is
Larry Arnn: you want to do what you want to do, and
Larry Arnn: you need to have reasons for that. And the other
Larry Arnn: is you need to do it successfully. And one part
Larry Arnn: of that would be not going to jail. Uh, and so,
Larry Arnn: you know, I mean, there have been hints that I
Larry Arnn: might be put in jail over the Covid stuff. Um, but, uh,
Larry Arnn: you know, you have to, and so you need a lawyer.
Larry Arnn: I mean, I, alas, have had more to do with
Larry Arnn: lawyers than I ever set out to do. You're one
Larry Arnn: of them. But, um, uh, the best lawyers that I
Larry Arnn: have worked with and very good one now, several very
Larry Arnn: good ones. Now they are. You believe, and they prove
Larry Arnn: that they have the right intentions, including cooperating with you
Larry Arnn: who are ultimately responsible, and also that they're very skilled
Larry Arnn: in the law. And that, that, that that means when
Larry Arnn: they say, no, you can believe them, that that probably
Larry Arnn: is the right answer. And then you reason with them
Larry Arnn: about it. But there's advice in all forms of administration
Larry Arnn: because we're human beings and it crops up everywhere. Sometimes
Larry Arnn: people try to use their position for their personal proclivities
Larry Arnn: as against the mission and the larger good of the institution.
Larry Arnn: And sometimes people try to use their position as a
Larry Arnn: source of power in the institution. And when, when, when
Larry Arnn: you sense that It means you've got a problem.
Hugh Hewitt: And that brings us back to Smith and Meese. They
Hugh Hewitt: were very selfless men. Superb lawyers. Served. Reagan served the
Hugh Hewitt: country completely selfless. Had no ambition. I want to begin
Hugh Hewitt: the conversation about birthright citizenship because I'm going to stake
Hugh Hewitt: my position, which you're going to disagree with, I think,
Hugh Hewitt: which is that original public meaning of the 14th amendment
Hugh Hewitt: was clear. Forget the colloquy on the Senate floor that
Hugh Hewitt: precedes it. But the public meaning was birthright citizenship, unless
Hugh Hewitt: you're a diplomat. And that's how we applied it through
Hugh Hewitt: the Great Migration, 1880 to 1920. And then we began
Hugh Hewitt: to write statutes. And so I don't think the president
Hugh Hewitt: has a snowball's chance of winning this lawsuit. And at best,
Hugh Hewitt: it will be seven two, uh, upholding birthright citizenship. But
Hugh Hewitt: what say you?
Larry Arnn: Well, I don't know how they're going to vote. I
Larry Arnn: don't I'm not optimistic about that. I think that the
Larry Arnn: the 14th amendment. One of the principal authors of it
Larry Arnn: is a man named Bingham, and he was one of
Larry Arnn: the people who carried it in the floor and had
Larry Arnn: a course in graduate school where we read the entire
Larry Arnn: congressional globe of all those debates. And he made the point.
Larry Arnn: This guy Bingham, that seems to me dispositive. And that is,
Larry Arnn: if you owe loyalty to another nation, then your children
Larry Arnn: are not automatically citizens. And that that seems to me
Larry Arnn: the vital thing, right? That and that. And that's in
Larry Arnn: the context of this. It's in that that there are
Larry Arnn: several quotes like that. But that particular one is one
Larry Arnn: where he mentions ambassadors and their children. And so it's
Larry Arnn: not just that you're representing a foreign country, it's that
Larry Arnn: you owe your loyalty to him to it. You have
Larry Arnn: not gone through the process of transferring your loyalty to
Larry Arnn: the United States of America. And, uh, and maybe we
Larry Arnn: have applied that wrong, uh, or opposed to that all
Larry Arnn: these decades, but I don't think it makes any difference.
Larry Arnn: I think that the point is America is a set
Larry Arnn: of practices and beliefs. It is a nation formed under
Larry Arnn: a social contract, and you have to join up somehow.
Hugh Hewitt: I that's what I think we will see. That particular quote,
Hugh Hewitt: that exchange, that colloquy on the floor dealt with in
Hugh Hewitt: the majority's opinion. And I think the answer will be
Hugh Hewitt: what Justice Scalia has always said, long standing interpretation, deeply
Hugh Hewitt: rooted in our history and tradition, Trump statutory history. I
Hugh Hewitt: think that's what's going to happen. We will find out
Hugh Hewitt: and we'll talk about it on the Hillsdale dialogue at
Hugh Hewitt: the end of June. But I'll be right back with
Hugh Hewitt: one more question for Doctor Ahran this week. And again,
Hugh Hewitt: we do not know what happened Tuesday night when we
Hugh Hewitt: taping this. Stay with us. Welcome back America. Hugh Hewitt
Hugh Hewitt: with doctor Larry Arnn president of Hillsdale College. Everything about Hillsdale,
Hugh Hewitt: including your free subscription to Imprimis and wonderful free online courses, is@hillsdale.edu.
Hugh Hewitt: And there's a new course on classical rhetoric, which I
Hugh Hewitt: really recommend to you. I also want you to know
Hugh Hewitt: all the dialogues found@hughforhillsdale.com. Doctor Ian, you and I have
Hugh Hewitt: been watching Democrats for a long time, both in California
Hugh Hewitt: 35 years ago and every week. And it seems to
Hugh Hewitt: me that there is an ongoing collapse of the other
Hugh Hewitt: party in the United States, not the Republicans, into a
Hugh Hewitt: party of the genuine left of the European left. You've
Hugh Hewitt: got John Fetterman left, Angus King, who's an independent, who
Hugh Hewitt: caucuses with the Democrat, maybe 1 or 2 others. But
Hugh Hewitt: what do you make of what's happening to the Democrats?
Larry Arnn: Well, uh, Um, you know, first of all, they may
Larry Arnn: be on the eve of a big victory in the midterms. And, uh,
Larry Arnn: they'll be full of themselves if they are. And, uh, uh,
Larry Arnn: they do seem to have more trouble than they used
Larry Arnn: to have. Putting a good face on many of their opinions. Uh,
Larry Arnn: I politics are more intensely partisan than right now in
Larry Arnn: any time in my lifetime. And it divides everybody and, uh,
Larry Arnn: and they seem to be on a side and what
Larry Arnn: used to be, you know, we, we used to at
Larry Arnn: least pay lip service to a time, you know, we
Larry Arnn: love the stories about tip O'Neill, the speaker of the
Larry Arnn: House with a big majority during most of Reagan's time.
Larry Arnn: All of it, all of it. Reagan's time, the majority
Larry Arnn: at least. And he and Reagan, you know, and, uh,
Larry Arnn: tip O'Neill was a Boston Irishman, and he and Reagan
Larry Arnn: would drink whiskey and have a good talk and cut
Larry Arnn: a deal. Uh, those days are not with us these days.
Larry Arnn: And that's sad. Uh, I wish it were not so.
Larry Arnn: And and, you know, a lot of, you know, one
Larry Arnn: side blames Donald Trump and who is a partisan man
Larry Arnn: on one side blames them. And that's another element of
Larry Arnn: the partisanship that and you know, what I think it
Larry Arnn: comes from is not just, uh, temper or personal character.
Larry Arnn: The questions involved are very big, right? I mean, they
Larry Arnn: reach right down directly to what is a human being.
Larry Arnn: How many sexes do they come in? What are their rights?
Larry Arnn: What are the sources of their rights? Uh, you know, uh,
Larry Arnn: who is the senator who said of late that, uh,
Larry Arnn: as if he'd never read the Declaration of Independence? Well,
Larry Arnn: our rights don't come from God. They come from government. Well,
Larry Arnn: that means, uh, but for the filibuster, they could redefine
Larry Arnn: them in the Senate on a 51, 49 vote. And, and, uh, that's,
Larry Arnn: that's not the correct understanding, but it is fundamentally important
Larry Arnn: that some people have that understanding.
Hugh Hewitt: And I think we're going to end it there, because
Hugh Hewitt: it is indeed a time of great division in the country, because,
Hugh Hewitt: as Doctor Arnn said, maybe in the first Hillsdale dialogue
Hugh Hewitt: we did all those years ago, fundamental things are afoot
Hugh Hewitt: and they remain afoot. We'll talk about them when we
Hugh Hewitt: can again in about three weeks. We'll check in on
Hugh Hewitt: the progress of the war. Thank you doctor. Larry Arnn
Hugh Hewitt: all things hillsdale@hillsdale.edu.
Scot bertram: Thanks for listening to the Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the
Scot bertram: Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes@podcast.hillsdale.edu or wherever you find
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