WEBVTT - America 250 Independence Day Special 0:00:06.559 --> 0:00:11.320 From the historic campus of Hillsdale College in Hillsdale, Michigan, 0:00:11.320 --> 0:00:15.040 where the good, the true and the beautiful are taught, 0:00:15.080 --> 0:00:19.920 nurtured and honored. This is the radio free Hillsdale Hour, 0:00:19.960 --> 0:00:23.840 bringing the activity and education of the college to listeners 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:25.320 across the country. 0:00:25.360 --> 0:00:31.000 What we lose in this hyper specialized, intense focus on 0:00:31.280 --> 0:00:34.520 one thing and ferreting out all that we can about 0:00:34.520 --> 0:00:36.640 one thing, we lose the big picture. 0:00:36.680 --> 0:00:40.280 This is your host, Scott Bertram. Welcome to the Radio 0:00:40.280 --> 0:00:45.519 Free Hillsdale Hour. Part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. 0:00:45.560 --> 0:00:50.160 And happy 250th Birthday to America. This is a very 0:00:50.159 --> 0:00:53.120 special edition of the program as we talk with two 0:00:53.120 --> 0:00:57.240 of our esteemed professors here at Hillsdale College about Independence 0:00:57.240 --> 0:01:01.030 Day and America. 250. That voice you heard was doctor 0:01:01.030 --> 0:01:04.590 Bill McClay. Victor Davis Hanson, Chair in Classical History and 0:01:04.590 --> 0:01:07.910 Western Civilization here at Hillsdale. We'll talk later in today's 0:01:07.910 --> 0:01:13.070 program about an essay he wrote about memory at America's Birthday. First, 0:01:13.110 --> 0:01:17.190 we're joined by Doctor Khalil Habib. He's associate professor of politics, 0:01:17.190 --> 0:01:20.470 and Allison and Dorothy Rouse, professor in politics here at 0:01:20.470 --> 0:01:23.670 Hillsdale College. Doctor Habib, thanks for joining us. 0:01:23.709 --> 0:01:24.990 Scott, it's always an honor. 0:01:25.190 --> 0:01:28.030 Talking about a wonderful essay that you wrote over at 0:01:28.030 --> 0:01:32.750 National Review. The importance of the 4th of July, according 0:01:32.790 --> 0:01:37.110 to the Adams family. Now, many Americans think of Independence 0:01:37.110 --> 0:01:40.750 Day as a celebration of military victory over Britain. But 0:01:40.750 --> 0:01:44.110 you argue John Quincy Adams saw it a bit differently. 0:01:44.150 --> 0:01:45.470 What's the distinction there? 0:01:45.870 --> 0:01:49.630 Well, of course, the Declaration of Independence was occasioned by 0:01:49.630 --> 0:01:52.310 abuses by King George the Third, and it is a 0:01:52.310 --> 0:01:55.710 celebration of our military victory over Britain. So I would 0:01:55.710 --> 0:01:59.460 never want to downplay that. But in two speeches that 0:01:59.460 --> 0:02:04.340 John Quincy Adams gave, 1 in 1821 and 1 in 1837. 0:02:04.700 --> 0:02:09.340 He wanted to celebrate Independence Day by reminding us of 0:02:09.340 --> 0:02:12.860 some of the most important principles that informed the Declaration 0:02:12.860 --> 0:02:16.700 of Independence. And among them. And we can talk about 0:02:17.180 --> 0:02:19.859 we can talk about it more as as as we continue. 0:02:20.460 --> 0:02:23.980 He wanted to show and remind Americans that the principles 0:02:23.980 --> 0:02:27.940 of the declaration first were rooted in a profound break 0:02:28.180 --> 0:02:33.180 with a certain European tradition that emphasized, for example, conquest, servitude, 0:02:33.380 --> 0:02:36.260 divine right of kings. And that was the focus of 0:02:36.260 --> 0:02:42.419 his 1821 speech. In 1837, he emphasizes the Christian roots. 0:02:42.419 --> 0:02:45.859 He believes that America plays a role in providential history, 0:02:46.260 --> 0:02:50.180 and he reminds his fellow Americans about the Christian foundation 0:02:50.180 --> 0:02:53.660 of those principles. And so he thought the best way 0:02:53.660 --> 0:02:57.060 to celebrate Independence Day was to not just read it, 0:02:57.060 --> 0:03:00.650 but to actually discuss it with fellow Americans and to 0:03:00.690 --> 0:03:02.370 always keep it close at hand. 0:03:03.169 --> 0:03:07.049 This matters a lot for us here in America. Adams 0:03:07.050 --> 0:03:12.410 also thought the declaration mattered for humanity more broadly. What 0:03:12.410 --> 0:03:15.490 does the declaration? How does it speak to humanity? 0:03:15.930 --> 0:03:21.210 Yeah. So one of the in the first speech in 1821, he. 0:03:21.250 --> 0:03:24.410 Secretary of State, and he's addressing himself to the US 0:03:24.450 --> 0:03:29.370 House of Representatives. And he recognizes that the declaration speaks 0:03:29.370 --> 0:03:33.650 on behalf of all human beings because it's founded ultimately 0:03:33.690 --> 0:03:39.770 on natural law. Mhm. And the idea of natural rights 0:03:39.770 --> 0:03:43.370 as inalienable rights that we have to, to life, liberty 0:03:43.650 --> 0:03:47.850 and the pursuit of happiness. But in spite of the 0:03:47.850 --> 0:03:50.450 fact that it does have a universal appeal and it 0:03:50.450 --> 0:03:54.610 touches upon humanity broadly, as you said in that specific speech, 0:03:54.610 --> 0:03:59.160 he does want to advocate for a restrained foreign policy 0:03:59.160 --> 0:04:01.840 because he knows that there would be a temptation to 0:04:01.880 --> 0:04:05.120 want to impose these principles on other regimes. And so 0:04:05.120 --> 0:04:07.600 that's where you get that very famous line where he says, 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:11.280 do not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy. 0:04:11.320 --> 0:04:14.680 So that's a tricky point. I think, in the declaration, 0:04:14.680 --> 0:04:17.599 on the one hand, it's universal, but on the other hand, 0:04:17.839 --> 0:04:21.200 you have to curb your enthusiasm for for simply searching, 0:04:21.240 --> 0:04:22.880 as he says, for monsters abroad. 0:04:23.400 --> 0:04:27.520 There are some today, even as we celebrate America 250, 0:04:27.560 --> 0:04:31.280 that see the declaration as a statement simply about America's past, 0:04:31.320 --> 0:04:35.920 a document of its time. The Addamses seem to have 0:04:35.920 --> 0:04:38.320 viewed it. You argue as as as a guide for 0:04:38.320 --> 0:04:41.440 America's future. Is that a fair assessment? 0:04:41.480 --> 0:04:45.320 Oh, yeah. No, no. For sure. Um, so John Adams, 0:04:45.360 --> 0:04:48.600 the father, and of course, John Quincy Adams, the son, 0:04:49.279 --> 0:04:52.839 always took any opportunity to, to write about the declaration, 0:04:52.839 --> 0:04:56.320 to speak about it. And they both emphasized the importance 0:04:56.390 --> 0:05:00.909 of just moral obligation and civic duty that every American has. 0:05:01.310 --> 0:05:04.310 When you live in a regime that embodies those principles. 0:05:04.310 --> 0:05:07.390 So his father, for example, John Adams, played a big 0:05:07.390 --> 0:05:11.390 role in drafting the Massachusetts Declaration of Rights. And in 0:05:11.390 --> 0:05:15.190 article two, he talks about, quote, rights and duties of 0:05:15.190 --> 0:05:17.710 all men. And in that instance, he was talking about 0:05:17.710 --> 0:05:21.029 the right of conscience. But the point is, it wasn't 0:05:21.029 --> 0:05:24.910 just simply a historical document. History occasioned it. Those abuses. 0:05:25.230 --> 0:05:29.070 But you can't have a a set of principles grounded 0:05:29.070 --> 0:05:32.950 in the law of nature and nature's God and think 0:05:32.950 --> 0:05:35.430 that they just simply have a historical shelf life. 0:05:36.110 --> 0:05:40.229 Doctor Khalil Habib with us, his piece@nationalreview.com. The importance of 0:05:40.230 --> 0:05:43.029 the 4th of July, according to the Adams family. I 0:05:43.029 --> 0:05:45.950 want to take just a brief sidebar away from the 0:05:45.990 --> 0:05:48.150 piece itself, because I've been talking to a lot of 0:05:48.150 --> 0:05:52.909 people about America. 250 And John Adams comes up again 0:05:52.910 --> 0:05:57.219 and again and again as this this real engine moving 0:05:57.220 --> 0:06:01.820 the country towards this this break of independence and the declaration. 0:06:02.260 --> 0:06:06.180 Can you tell us a little bit about Adams and 0:06:06.220 --> 0:06:09.940 then John Quincy Adams, in terms of his influence, could 0:06:10.180 --> 0:06:13.420 be compare and contrast John Adams and John Quincy Adams. 0:06:13.740 --> 0:06:15.779 Yeah, they're very similar. I mean, I don't see much 0:06:15.779 --> 0:06:19.060 of a difference with respect to the declaration. I think 0:06:19.300 --> 0:06:23.660 the great contribution I see from the senior the elder is, um, 0:06:23.900 --> 0:06:26.260 he does write a work thoughts on government and what 0:06:26.260 --> 0:06:28.339 I love about that. And I would encourage every American 0:06:28.339 --> 0:06:30.660 to take a look to take a look at it 0:06:30.660 --> 0:06:33.820 is he unpacks what the founders meant by the pursuit 0:06:33.820 --> 0:06:36.940 of happiness, which I think has created a lot of problems. Yeah, 0:06:37.180 --> 0:06:40.620 primarily from the right. Interestingly enough, there are some conservative 0:06:40.620 --> 0:06:43.820 critics of the founding who attribute all of our moral 0:06:43.820 --> 0:06:47.340 decline and degeneracy to the principles of the founding. They 0:06:47.339 --> 0:06:51.060 say that all of our problems today, um, they are 0:06:51.180 --> 0:06:53.540 really the result of the principles that were baked in it. 0:06:53.540 --> 0:06:56.130 And so what are they referring to when they say that? Well, 0:06:56.170 --> 0:06:59.410 among other places, they think that the pursuit of happiness 0:06:59.450 --> 0:07:02.730 is this relativistic. You pursue your happiness one way, Scott, 0:07:02.770 --> 0:07:07.650 I pursue mine. Who's to say it's just indeterminate world 0:07:07.650 --> 0:07:10.050 that we live in? Let's just agree to just get along. 0:07:10.050 --> 0:07:13.450 And that kind of relativism doesn't give the founding of 0:07:13.450 --> 0:07:16.450 a moral anchor. What I love about the elder John 0:07:16.450 --> 0:07:21.090 Adams is in Thoughts on Government. He essentially confirms what 0:07:21.090 --> 0:07:23.610 many of us already know about the founding. Happiness in 0:07:23.650 --> 0:07:27.090 that context, according to him, was always in reference to 0:07:27.130 --> 0:07:33.610 moral virtue. It wasn't an indeterminate lifestyle. And and he's 0:07:33.610 --> 0:07:37.050 essentially just developing what Thomas Jefferson, the primary writer of 0:07:37.050 --> 0:07:40.929 the declaration, simply said to Henry Lee when he wrote 0:07:40.930 --> 0:07:44.250 to him to explain the meaning and the context of 0:07:44.250 --> 0:07:47.410 the Declaration of Independence. Jefferson then tells him that he 0:07:47.410 --> 0:07:50.290 drew upon principles that go all the way back to Aristotle, 0:07:50.330 --> 0:07:54.170 and anyone familiar with Aristotle knows that the centrality of 0:07:54.250 --> 0:07:57.690 happiness to politics as Aristotle's great theme. And for Aristotle, 0:07:57.730 --> 0:08:01.810 that happiness, that eudaimonia is a kind of moral flourishing. 0:08:01.930 --> 0:08:05.810 So I think that alone constitutes a massive contribution by 0:08:05.810 --> 0:08:08.570 the father. And what I love about the son is 0:08:08.570 --> 0:08:12.210 that he shows us in his own actions what it 0:08:12.250 --> 0:08:14.690 what it should mean to be a great American. And 0:08:14.730 --> 0:08:18.010 you don't celebrate the 4th of July. That's to decellularize it. 0:08:18.010 --> 0:08:22.410 You celebrate Independence Day. That's like saying, I celebrate the 25th, I. 0:08:22.850 --> 0:08:25.810 I make this point all the time. I mean, at 0:08:25.810 --> 0:08:27.809 some point it's just semantic. But on the other hand, 0:08:27.850 --> 0:08:30.290 it really means something. You're not just celebrating a date 0:08:30.290 --> 0:08:32.370 on the calendar. There's much, much more than that. 0:08:32.530 --> 0:08:35.490 Look, would you refer to Christmas as just the 25th? Yeah, 0:08:35.530 --> 0:08:38.090 of course not. Now, when you reduce something like, you know, 0:08:38.130 --> 0:08:41.250 our Independence Day to the 25th to the fourth, then 0:08:41.250 --> 0:08:44.650 it just becomes about mattress sales and barbecues. And that's fine. 0:08:44.650 --> 0:08:47.170 I'm actually looking to replace a few myself, so I'm not. 0:08:47.210 --> 0:08:50.610 No that's okay. But I think what he what he 0:08:50.610 --> 0:08:53.680 does that I think so well is he shows us 0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:56.200 in his own actions, what it what it means to 0:08:56.240 --> 0:08:58.640 reflect on it. It's not simply a history lesson. It's 0:08:58.640 --> 0:09:01.960 an attempt to try to explain how those principles really 0:09:01.960 --> 0:09:06.040 created the consensus that formed the founding, the American mind, 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:10.480 as Jefferson says. And it's the only basis, I think, 0:09:10.480 --> 0:09:15.240 of a unity among our citizens. And they and it 0:09:15.240 --> 0:09:19.439 really should help inform a national cohesion. So I think 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:24.040 those speeches really should, should inspire, should inspire us, as 0:09:24.040 --> 0:09:25.000 I think they were intended. 0:09:25.000 --> 0:09:28.440 That's Doctor Khalil Habib here at Hillsdale College. We'll talk 0:09:28.440 --> 0:09:31.480 more with him in just a moment. This America 250 0:09:31.520 --> 0:09:34.800 celebration is the perfect time to dig into our online 0:09:34.800 --> 0:09:38.960 courses here at Hillsdale College and Hillsdale College. Online Courses 0:09:38.960 --> 0:09:43.280 Podcast right now is featuring the great American Story A 0:09:43.320 --> 0:09:47.560 land of Hope. Your teacher for this is doctor Bill McClay. 0:09:47.559 --> 0:09:50.880 We'll hear from him later on in today's program, the 0:09:50.880 --> 0:09:54.670 Great American Story explores the history of America as a 0:09:54.670 --> 0:09:57.710 land of hope founded on high principles. It presents the 0:09:57.710 --> 0:10:01.230 great triumphs and achievements of our nation's past and the 0:10:01.230 --> 0:10:04.990 shortcomings and failures. It offers a broad and unbiased study 0:10:04.990 --> 0:10:09.470 of the kind essential to the cultivation of intelligent patriotism. 0:10:09.470 --> 0:10:13.070 And right now, it's a perfect time to start the 0:10:13.070 --> 0:10:18.030 Great American Story, part of Hillsdale College's Online Courses podcast. 0:10:18.070 --> 0:10:25.230 Find it@podcast.hillsdale.edu or wherever you get your audio. Doctor Khalil 0:10:25.230 --> 0:10:29.550 Habib continues now associate professor of politics Allison and Dorothy Rouse, 0:10:29.550 --> 0:10:35.110 professor in politics here at Hillsdale College. Also this essay over@nationalreview.com. 0:10:35.429 --> 0:10:38.350 The importance of the 4th of July. According to the 0:10:38.350 --> 0:10:44.390 Adams family doctor Habib, how does self-government at the personal 0:10:44.390 --> 0:10:48.670 level relate to self-government at the political level? 0:10:49.630 --> 0:10:52.980 For the exact reason that Saint Augustine says you have 0:10:53.020 --> 0:10:56.380 as many masters as you have vices. So if you're 0:10:56.380 --> 0:11:00.380 just tyrannized by your appetites, by your vices, nobody in 0:11:00.420 --> 0:11:03.140 their right mind would call you a free person. You're 0:11:03.140 --> 0:11:06.500 an unfree person. You're a natural slave, so to speak. 0:11:07.059 --> 0:11:09.940 And what Locke and what the founders and what the 0:11:09.980 --> 0:11:14.940 adamses always distinguish is liberty from license. Liberty is not 0:11:14.940 --> 0:11:19.260 license to do anything you want. Liberty is a friend 0:11:19.260 --> 0:11:24.940 of law of order. And self-government essentially means you have 0:11:24.940 --> 0:11:31.100 the virtue to restrain your desires, forestall instant gratification, and 0:11:31.100 --> 0:11:34.900 no human being who can't govern himself is fit to 0:11:34.940 --> 0:11:37.179 govern and live in society. And so if you're not 0:11:37.179 --> 0:11:39.460 going to govern yourself, I'm sure the state would be 0:11:39.500 --> 0:11:42.339 happy to fill that void. And so the idea actually, 0:11:42.340 --> 0:11:45.939 of a small government is predicated on the notion that 0:11:45.940 --> 0:11:49.540 we have little government here in our own soul, and 0:11:49.540 --> 0:11:52.450 that's sufficient. And so that, I think is a very 0:11:52.450 --> 0:11:53.890 important and good question. 0:11:53.929 --> 0:11:58.410 Yeah. This idea that liberty and virtue are inseparable, is 0:11:58.410 --> 0:12:02.730 that something that we have lost? Perhaps many of us 0:12:02.730 --> 0:12:04.530 have lost modern day America. 0:12:04.530 --> 0:12:07.410 Sadly, I think so. I think there's too much of 0:12:07.410 --> 0:12:13.810 an emphasis on liberty defined as whatever my will desires. And, um, and, 0:12:13.850 --> 0:12:17.610 and whatever that is. Um, when you, when you liberate 0:12:17.610 --> 0:12:20.530 the passions from any restraint, you create a condition where 0:12:20.530 --> 0:12:24.050 humans can't live with limits. Mhm. Think of all of 0:12:24.050 --> 0:12:27.530 the addictions that people develop because there's just no, there's 0:12:27.530 --> 0:12:30.850 no adults left in the room, culturally speaking. And when 0:12:30.850 --> 0:12:33.210 you do that, you're not suited to live in a 0:12:33.210 --> 0:12:35.890 world where you have to limit yourself. I mean, that's 0:12:35.890 --> 0:12:38.130 really what virtue is in a way. Well, the laws 0:12:38.130 --> 0:12:40.490 are also a limit. Our Constitution is a limit. It's 0:12:40.490 --> 0:12:43.530 a limit on power and abuses of power. And so 0:12:44.090 --> 0:12:47.810 the more our society encourages, I think, license, the more 0:12:47.809 --> 0:12:51.120 it's going to rub up against our constitutional order. And 0:12:51.120 --> 0:12:53.160 then the next step would be to just live in 0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:57.600 an anarchic state. Because once you liberate those desires, you 0:12:57.640 --> 0:13:00.240 no longer listen to the voice of reason or law. 0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:03.080 There's no reason to have a constitution. You end up 0:13:03.080 --> 0:13:05.560 living in a post-constitutional world. And I think that's a 0:13:05.559 --> 0:13:07.160 very dangerous place to be in. 0:13:07.840 --> 0:13:12.959 Founders often talked about rights and responsibilities together. How did 0:13:12.960 --> 0:13:17.080 John Adams and John Quincy Adams understand that relationship? 0:13:17.200 --> 0:13:21.200 Yeah. So every right does entail a certain kind of duty. 0:13:21.200 --> 0:13:23.520 There's two ways to look at it. So if you 0:13:23.520 --> 0:13:25.920 have a right to property, I have a moral duty 0:13:25.920 --> 0:13:29.160 to not steal it. And that's just, I think so 0:13:29.440 --> 0:13:33.280 clear and obvious. It's self-evident. The other side of duty 0:13:33.280 --> 0:13:38.679 is John Adams, for example, emphasized civic duties, the duty 0:13:38.679 --> 0:13:41.400 to defend other people's rights, the duty of citizens to 0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:44.360 pay their taxes, support their government. But of course, it's 0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:48.920 always predicated and conditional. You wouldn't, uh, tolerate a tyrannical 0:13:49.309 --> 0:13:53.750 form of government, hence the declaration's sort of escape route. 0:13:53.790 --> 0:13:56.230 You know, after a long train of abuses, we do 0:13:56.230 --> 0:13:59.510 have a right to either reform or abolish. But there's 0:13:59.510 --> 0:14:03.150 always a there's a recognition that these rights are not 0:14:03.150 --> 0:14:07.069 just simply individualistic. I think that's another thing. Some on 0:14:07.070 --> 0:14:10.229 the right often think they think it's just a solipsistic 0:14:10.230 --> 0:14:14.350 country with no regard for the common good. But, um, 0:14:14.550 --> 0:14:17.510 rights and duties always are, are two sides of the 0:14:17.510 --> 0:14:18.110 same coin. 0:14:18.670 --> 0:14:22.990 Talking with Doctor Khalil Habib. His piece@nationalreview.com. The importance of 0:14:22.990 --> 0:14:26.990 the 4th of July. According to the Adams family. What 0:14:27.030 --> 0:14:32.270 maybe should we Americans be celebrating today in 2026 that 0:14:32.310 --> 0:14:34.590 we're not celebrating enough? 0:14:35.070 --> 0:14:38.350 I think it and there's a lot of free sources 0:14:38.350 --> 0:14:41.990 out there. I'm not just simply plugging Hillsdale, but I think, um, 0:14:42.390 --> 0:14:45.510 you know, I think just reading it carefully and then 0:14:45.510 --> 0:14:48.500 reading those speeches, you could literally any one of your 0:14:48.500 --> 0:14:52.660 listeners could just Google John Quincy Adams speeches on Independence Day, 0:14:52.660 --> 0:14:58.540 and they'll they'll find the 1821 and the 1837 speeches there. Um, 0:14:58.580 --> 0:15:01.540 so accessible and I think, you know, let him be 0:15:01.540 --> 0:15:03.980 a guide. Let him at least help shed some light 0:15:04.220 --> 0:15:06.660 on it. I think that's what they intended. I mean, 0:15:06.700 --> 0:15:09.060 I would go so far as to say that, you know, 0:15:09.100 --> 0:15:11.500 the declaration is many things. It's in his. You can't 0:15:11.500 --> 0:15:15.100 exhaust it. But one thing I would absolutely argue is 0:15:15.100 --> 0:15:18.420 that the declaration is a microcosm of what civic education 0:15:18.740 --> 0:15:21.780 should look like. It should always reflect about human nature 0:15:21.780 --> 0:15:24.420 in relation to God and in relation to politics and 0:15:24.420 --> 0:15:27.820 in relation to one's fellow citizens. And I think in 0:15:27.860 --> 0:15:30.740 that regard, you can almost see an architecture of a 0:15:30.740 --> 0:15:34.140 classical liberal education. The letter, again, that Jefferson writes to 0:15:34.180 --> 0:15:38.740 Henry Lee is very instructive. He mentions four great thinkers, 0:15:38.740 --> 0:15:43.940 two ancients, Aristotle and Cicero, and two moderns, Locke and Sidney. 0:15:44.220 --> 0:15:46.740 So I think among the things I would do, I mean, 0:15:46.780 --> 0:15:48.650 I would read those speeches, I would take a look 0:15:48.650 --> 0:15:51.370 at Jefferson's letter to Henry Lee. All of this is 0:15:51.370 --> 0:15:54.210 available for free online. Yeah. And then think about what 0:15:54.210 --> 0:15:57.970 kind of education would be required to really understand it. 0:15:57.970 --> 0:16:01.210 Because I think we're we're driving a car where we 0:16:01.210 --> 0:16:04.850 refuse to look at the owner's manual and don't know 0:16:04.890 --> 0:16:08.570 when what light, when it's blinking, what that means and 0:16:08.570 --> 0:16:10.850 how to fix it. And I think the tendency to 0:16:10.890 --> 0:16:14.250 just assume government can fix everything is dangerous. Because what 0:16:14.250 --> 0:16:17.330 if government becomes the problem? And so I think we 0:16:17.330 --> 0:16:21.650 need to restore the vocabulary, the the moral and political 0:16:21.650 --> 0:16:25.650 and religious conception and mindset that the founders had. So 0:16:25.650 --> 0:16:28.330 we can be responsible citizens and do our part. 0:16:28.890 --> 0:16:32.330 You actually encourage in the piece that people should read 0:16:32.330 --> 0:16:36.130 the declaration aloud on Independence Day this year. What happens 0:16:36.130 --> 0:16:38.770 when we when we actually do that, read it carefully, 0:16:38.770 --> 0:16:42.410 maybe even specifically with the grievance section of the declaration. 0:16:42.410 --> 0:16:43.850 What do we what do we hear when we hear 0:16:43.850 --> 0:16:44.570 that aloud? 0:16:44.610 --> 0:16:47.640 I think you believe it or not. If you were 0:16:47.640 --> 0:16:50.440 to read the declaration out loud one, I think it's transformative. 0:16:50.720 --> 0:16:53.200 Two I think what might surprise you is you will 0:16:53.240 --> 0:16:56.760 actually see the Constitution in it. I'm glad you brought 0:16:56.760 --> 0:16:59.120 up the grievances. That's actually one of my favorite parts. 0:16:59.680 --> 0:17:02.000 The grievances at first. If you don't know what you're 0:17:02.000 --> 0:17:04.640 looking for, just look like a random list of grievances. 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:08.040 But if you look at them carefully, they're classified and 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:11.560 categorized in terms of certain abuses that belong to certain 0:17:11.560 --> 0:17:15.040 branches of government. So there's judicial abuses. We have executive 0:17:15.040 --> 0:17:17.840 and we have legislative. Now, they don't explicitly state that, 0:17:17.840 --> 0:17:20.639 but you see, they actually line up with how the 0:17:20.640 --> 0:17:25.800 American Constitution, uh, will distribute the powers. And, uh, and 0:17:25.800 --> 0:17:27.920 so you could say once you see them that way, 0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:31.359 which I think it's suddenly something invisible becomes visible. Once 0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:33.200 you see it, you won't be able to unsee it. 0:17:33.640 --> 0:17:35.679 I think you'll see what, uh, we, at least at 0:17:35.680 --> 0:17:38.119 Hillsdale College have always argued, and that is that the 0:17:38.119 --> 0:17:41.360 declaration and the Constitution are two sides of the same coin. 0:17:41.359 --> 0:17:44.320 You can't really understand one without the other. 0:17:44.600 --> 0:17:47.750 The Adams is viewed Independence Day not just as a 0:17:47.750 --> 0:17:51.230 birthday party, as we've mentioned previously in the conversation, but 0:17:51.390 --> 0:17:56.790 also an annual recommitment to certain truths about the country. 0:17:57.150 --> 0:18:01.750 What truths should we recommit ourselves to this 4th of July, 0:18:01.790 --> 0:18:02.869 this Independence Day? 0:18:02.910 --> 0:18:06.270 God, family and country? I think it's pretty clear from 0:18:06.270 --> 0:18:10.629 their writings, from their speeches, that those three pillars form 0:18:10.630 --> 0:18:15.070 the foundation of a healthy society. And to see how 0:18:15.350 --> 0:18:19.990 the Constitution and the principles of the declaration support them 0:18:19.990 --> 0:18:23.909 is another way of providing or adding water to those pillars. 0:18:23.910 --> 0:18:26.070 We always talk about those three things, but I think 0:18:26.070 --> 0:18:28.790 if we put in the effort to see what the 0:18:28.790 --> 0:18:31.270 Adamses had had thought about these things and let them 0:18:31.310 --> 0:18:33.470 be our guides, I think it will really deepen our 0:18:33.470 --> 0:18:37.510 relations with one another and more importantly, to the founding. 0:18:37.990 --> 0:18:41.430 Doctor Khalil Habib is associate professor of politics here at 0:18:41.430 --> 0:18:45.780 Hillsdale College. Also Allison and Dorothy Rouse, professor in politics. 0:18:46.100 --> 0:18:50.859 His piece@nationalreview.com. The importance of the 4th of July. According 0:18:50.900 --> 0:18:54.179 to the Adams family, doctor Habib, thanks for joining us 0:18:54.180 --> 0:18:56.660 here on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. 0:18:56.700 --> 0:18:58.619 Scott, it's always a pleasure. Thank you. 0:18:58.660 --> 0:19:02.220 Up next, doctor Bill McClay from Hillsdale College joins us. 0:19:02.380 --> 0:19:06.859 Memory and America's birthday. His topic I'm Scott Bertram. This 0:19:06.859 --> 0:19:25.380 is the radio free Hillsdale Hour. Welcome back to the 0:19:25.380 --> 0:19:29.859 radio free Hillsdale Hour. I'm Scott Bertram. Follow us on 0:19:29.859 --> 0:19:34.260 X for updated show and guest information. We're at Hillsdale 0:19:34.260 --> 0:19:40.060 Radio and at h e podcasts for the Hillsdale College 0:19:40.060 --> 0:19:43.500 Podcast Network. We're joined by Doctor Wilfred McClay. He is 0:19:43.500 --> 0:19:47.410 Victor Davis Hanson Chair in Classical History and Western Civilization 0:19:47.410 --> 0:19:50.610 here at Hillsdale College. Also the author of the excellent 0:19:50.609 --> 0:19:54.649 book land of Hope and more recently, a piece at 0:19:54.650 --> 0:19:59.530 the American Heritage Online Memory at America's Birthday. That's what 0:19:59.530 --> 0:20:02.650 we'll talk about today. Doctor McClay, thanks for joining us. 0:20:02.770 --> 0:20:05.409 Well it's wonderful. It's always good to be with you Scott. 0:20:05.450 --> 0:20:07.410 You're the best interviewer around. 0:20:07.530 --> 0:20:10.129 Thank you for the compliment. I appreciate it. The questions 0:20:10.130 --> 0:20:11.490 won't be easier just because you said. 0:20:11.650 --> 0:20:12.330 Oh, I know. 0:20:13.609 --> 0:20:17.010 So it's a great essay over at American Heritage. Um, 0:20:17.170 --> 0:20:19.690 why do moments where we're approaching the 4th of July, 0:20:19.730 --> 0:20:22.810 as we as we speak. Why do moments like that. 0:20:23.090 --> 0:20:26.810 Why should they matter to us more than just fireworks 0:20:26.810 --> 0:20:29.730 and tradition? What do those moments mean for us as Americans? 0:20:29.890 --> 0:20:33.570 Well, sure, fireworks is great. I'm all for fireworks. I'm 0:20:33.570 --> 0:20:42.410 all for festivity. Hot dogs, apple pie, Subaru, Chevrolet, whatever. But, um. No, 0:20:42.410 --> 0:20:47.800 it's very. Look, if you think of, um, we mark, uh, 0:20:47.920 --> 0:20:55.240 time by, uh, signifying the certain dates, certain moments, whether, 0:20:55.280 --> 0:21:00.240 whether it's the Sabbath, whether it's, uh, a birthday, uh, 0:21:00.600 --> 0:21:03.600 you know, and then of course, July 4th, we treat 0:21:03.600 --> 0:21:06.879 as America's birthday. Mhm. John Adams would like it to 0:21:06.880 --> 0:21:09.600 have been July 2nd, but he, he did, as in 0:21:09.600 --> 0:21:12.840 so many things, he didn't get his way. Uh, and 0:21:12.840 --> 0:21:17.400 it's a way of, uh, when we mark a time, 0:21:17.600 --> 0:21:21.800 the repetition of a time like a birthday, we're, uh, 0:21:21.800 --> 0:21:25.160 it's an act of memory. It's an act of reconnecting 0:21:25.160 --> 0:21:30.560 ourselves to something that happened before. It, it, it articulates 0:21:30.600 --> 0:21:33.879 time instead of just being one sort of thing after 0:21:33.880 --> 0:21:38.280 another in the kind of flow of life, it marks 0:21:38.280 --> 0:21:41.560 those moments that helped to define us and we returned 0:21:41.560 --> 0:21:45.230 to them. I mean, my example that I always like 0:21:45.270 --> 0:21:49.710 to give, although it's unfamiliar to many of our listeners, 0:21:49.750 --> 0:21:54.270 is the Seder meal on Passover that you celebrate, which 0:21:54.270 --> 0:21:59.350 they go through this sort of re-identification with the sort 0:21:59.350 --> 0:22:04.710 of primal foundational features of, of Jewish identity, the Passover, 0:22:04.990 --> 0:22:09.110 the passage to the Promised Land, and the fact that 0:22:09.109 --> 0:22:13.190 it was God who delivered them is always there. And 0:22:13.190 --> 0:22:18.669 you're passing that on. Exodus where this is prescribed, uh, says, 0:22:18.710 --> 0:22:22.670 you know, you tell your sons, tell your children the 0:22:22.670 --> 0:22:25.989 Lord did this for me. Mhm. Um, and so you 0:22:25.990 --> 0:22:29.910 have this chain of memory. Uh, and in the case 0:22:29.910 --> 0:22:32.030 of the Jews, it's a really a memory of who 0:22:32.030 --> 0:22:36.430 we are, who they are. Um, and, uh, I think 0:22:36.670 --> 0:22:40.550 always we, the 4th of July should remind us who 0:22:40.550 --> 0:22:44.510 we are that we have our origins as a people 0:22:44.950 --> 0:22:51.389 in this act of separating from the British Empire and 0:22:51.430 --> 0:22:55.590 acknowledging ourselves not just as a separate entity, but an 0:22:55.590 --> 0:23:00.350 entity that was dedicated to certain ideals. And these ideals 0:23:00.350 --> 0:23:07.110 are aspirational. You know, we're not perfect. And sometimes I 0:23:07.109 --> 0:23:11.189 feel as if our historical consciousness is hindered by the 0:23:11.190 --> 0:23:14.630 fact that perfection is what we expect from ourselves, because 0:23:14.630 --> 0:23:21.510 we profess and we aspire to ideals of perfection. But anyway, 0:23:21.550 --> 0:23:24.950 we renew that. You know, I I'm a church going person. 0:23:24.950 --> 0:23:28.510 And and in church on Sunday, there was always, uh, 0:23:28.630 --> 0:23:32.790 this general confession of sin. And you, you confess your 0:23:32.790 --> 0:23:34.989 sins and you say, I'm going to do better the 0:23:34.990 --> 0:23:39.110 next week, knowing that chances are slim that I'll do 0:23:39.109 --> 0:23:43.060 much better. But you always commit to that aspiration, which 0:23:43.060 --> 0:23:46.700 does make us better and does sort of define who 0:23:46.700 --> 0:23:50.500 we are. We're a, um, I mean, among the church going, 0:23:50.540 --> 0:23:54.820 we are a, uh, it's always in seek of redemption, 0:23:55.260 --> 0:23:58.699 always in need of redemption. That's who we are. So 0:23:58.740 --> 0:24:03.300 I think there's definitely a connection between marking these days. 0:24:03.660 --> 0:24:06.619 And of course, just to go into the religious sphere, 0:24:06.660 --> 0:24:11.300 there's Christmas, there's Easter, there's any number of other, uh, 0:24:11.340 --> 0:24:17.060 holy days which we get holidays, but, um, that are, uh, 0:24:17.780 --> 0:24:21.260 you know, Christmas doesn't reoccur every December 25th. I mean, 0:24:21.300 --> 0:24:25.820 Jesus is not reborn. Everything. We remember this and it's 0:24:25.820 --> 0:24:30.379 the act of remembrance that we're connect ourselves to the 0:24:30.380 --> 0:24:32.859 foundational elements of our own past. 0:24:33.020 --> 0:24:35.419 One of the main arguments in this essay, Memory at 0:24:35.420 --> 0:24:40.250 America's Birthday, is that without shared memory, that we risk 0:24:40.250 --> 0:24:44.330 forgetting who we are. What does that look like when 0:24:44.330 --> 0:24:46.690 it happens to a country? Do we have examples of 0:24:46.690 --> 0:24:48.130 this happening in history? 0:24:48.490 --> 0:24:51.649 Well, I think we're we're seeing it. But if I 0:24:51.650 --> 0:24:53.649 could just in a moment. I mean, I think the 0:24:53.690 --> 0:24:57.010 really powerful thing for people who are skeptical about this 0:24:57.010 --> 0:25:02.050 idea is to think about first, about an individual. And 0:25:02.090 --> 0:25:04.650 I think almost all of us have been touched at 0:25:04.650 --> 0:25:10.850 some point by dementia, Alzheimer's disease, some kind of tragic 0:25:10.890 --> 0:25:16.890 memory loss in someone we know that really literally does 0:25:17.530 --> 0:25:19.810 end them up in a point where they don't fully 0:25:19.810 --> 0:25:24.010 know who they are. Um, and they don't recognize the 0:25:24.010 --> 0:25:27.210 people that have been integral to their lives, their spouse, 0:25:27.210 --> 0:25:31.530 their children, their relatives, their parents even. And it's extremely 0:25:31.530 --> 0:25:35.770 tragic cases. So who we are is in part dependent 0:25:35.770 --> 0:25:39.600 on the memories that we have of the others in 0:25:39.600 --> 0:25:44.680 their life and sharing the memories with them. Uh, remember 0:25:44.720 --> 0:25:48.640 what happened on your fifth birthday? Remember? You know, when 0:25:48.680 --> 0:25:52.120 Uncle Ernie went crazy and started tearing the paintings off 0:25:52.119 --> 0:25:55.000 the wall? You know, I any number of things that 0:25:55.000 --> 0:26:00.560 at family gatherings, you you reminisce about and and in reminiscing, 0:26:00.840 --> 0:26:05.080 you share that memory. You share a sense of community 0:26:05.080 --> 0:26:09.879 more than community of commonality. That goes very, very deep. 0:26:10.320 --> 0:26:14.359 And if you don't have those, let's say, um, in 0:26:14.400 --> 0:26:19.080 cases of divorce, I mean, this is, uh, so difficult. 0:26:19.119 --> 0:26:22.040 I'm glad I've never had to undergo it, but there 0:26:22.040 --> 0:26:28.040 is this wrenching apart of shared memories. People who pictures 0:26:28.040 --> 0:26:31.239 that they treasured can no longer be posted on the 0:26:31.240 --> 0:26:34.000 wall because the ex is in them, or some people 0:26:34.000 --> 0:26:37.520 don't feel that strongly. But in a lot of cases 0:26:37.520 --> 0:26:41.470 there's this need to edit on your side, your past, 0:26:41.470 --> 0:26:44.430 and the other person edits it on his or her side. 0:26:44.430 --> 0:26:50.149 And it's for children. Look, this is just horrible. I'm 0:26:50.150 --> 0:26:53.070 my generation, the baby boom generation. One of their many 0:26:53.070 --> 0:26:57.070 sins was to sort of think, oh, the kids are 0:26:57.070 --> 0:27:01.270 all right. The kids are never all right. They may 0:27:01.470 --> 0:27:06.190 become stronger by working through their loss, but it is 0:27:06.310 --> 0:27:11.070 something very deep is lost by the loss of shared 0:27:11.070 --> 0:27:12.710 memories as a family. 0:27:12.790 --> 0:27:16.310 Now, Doctor McClay, can we extend that type of analogy 0:27:16.310 --> 0:27:18.909 to an entire nation like the United States? 0:27:19.230 --> 0:27:22.830 Well, of course you can. You can. And so things 0:27:22.830 --> 0:27:26.030 like the 4th of July, um, cease to have meaning 0:27:26.070 --> 0:27:29.950 if people don't know something about how and why and 0:27:29.950 --> 0:27:33.830 for the sake of what this country came into being 0:27:33.830 --> 0:27:37.939 and all of the people's Veterans Day. the people who 0:27:37.980 --> 0:27:42.260 have given their lives so that we can enjoy our 0:27:42.260 --> 0:27:49.179 fat and happy existence. That sense of gratitude, I mean Thanksgiving. 0:27:49.660 --> 0:27:52.940 I know people don't think about this Thanksgiving, and everybody 0:27:52.940 --> 0:27:55.580 loves Thanksgiving for the most part, unless you have a 0:27:55.580 --> 0:27:59.980 terrible family life, in which case you dread Thanksgiving. Which 0:28:00.020 --> 0:28:04.140 sort of proves my point. But in this secular era, 0:28:04.300 --> 0:28:07.540 I'd like to ask people, what do you when you think, 0:28:07.580 --> 0:28:10.619 don't you? When you think, when you're thanking, aren't you 0:28:10.660 --> 0:28:14.100 thanking somebody or something? Oh, I never thought about it 0:28:14.100 --> 0:28:18.980 that way. Oh, of course you haven't. But Thanksgiving implies, uh, 0:28:19.380 --> 0:28:23.980 that to whom we give thanks, that person persons, but 0:28:24.220 --> 0:28:29.900 also ultimately the divine person. We're we we presume it 0:28:29.900 --> 0:28:33.540 even though we maybe think we don't believe anymore. Well, actually, 0:28:33.580 --> 0:28:38.810 we're acting as if we do. And and Thanksgiving requires 0:28:39.410 --> 0:28:43.370 to be a really successful occasion. It requires remembering all 0:28:43.410 --> 0:28:46.969 of those things, all of the all of the past 0:28:46.970 --> 0:28:48.850 and all of the shared past. 0:28:49.250 --> 0:28:52.970 You suggest in this essay, Doctor McClay, that we might 0:28:53.010 --> 0:28:56.970 we might know more about our past, about the American past. 0:28:56.970 --> 0:29:01.250 But actually we we understand less. We're we're ignorant of more. 0:29:01.370 --> 0:29:03.530 How does that happen? What's going wrong? 0:29:03.570 --> 0:29:07.370 Yeah. Well, I think my profession. I blame my generation. 0:29:07.370 --> 0:29:11.530 Now I'm going to blame my profession. Uh, the professional 0:29:11.570 --> 0:29:20.330 historians who, uh, really, I and you see this lately, especially, uh, they, 0:29:20.330 --> 0:29:24.530 they kind of consider themselves custodians of the national memory, 0:29:25.210 --> 0:29:27.930 which I think is a great presumption. I've always felt 0:29:27.930 --> 0:29:30.130 that even when I was a graduate student, I saw 0:29:30.130 --> 0:29:33.930 the fallacy of that. But what's happened though, and here 0:29:33.930 --> 0:29:39.320 I will praise us. We have devised ways to go 0:29:39.320 --> 0:29:45.320 into areas of history that have been almost invisible. And 0:29:45.320 --> 0:29:47.880 I'll just give as an example, what was it like 0:29:48.240 --> 0:29:52.920 to be a slave in the antebellum South? What was 0:29:52.920 --> 0:29:55.000 it like and what was it like to be a 0:29:55.000 --> 0:29:59.880 slave here? You know, Kentucky, Louisiana sugar plantation. You know, 0:29:59.920 --> 0:30:03.400 what was it like in all of these different situations? 0:30:03.400 --> 0:30:08.560 Because slavery was not a monolithic experience. We know a 0:30:08.560 --> 0:30:14.160 lot more than than people were even interested in asking 0:30:14.520 --> 0:30:20.640 about what that condition was like. Um, and we have a, 0:30:21.160 --> 0:30:25.120 we have a national bad conscience about the existence of slavery. 0:30:25.520 --> 0:30:28.760 And I think that some, to some extent that's warranted. 0:30:28.760 --> 0:30:35.910 But what we lose in this hyper specialized, intense focus 0:30:35.910 --> 0:30:39.550 on one thing and ferreting out all that we can 0:30:39.550 --> 0:30:42.990 about one thing. We lose the big picture. Mhm. Um, 0:30:43.390 --> 0:30:46.070 what what people should come away, at least from a 0:30:46.070 --> 0:30:50.390 high school education with is a sense of the larger 0:30:50.390 --> 0:30:54.310 arc of American history, the trajectory of American history, how, 0:30:54.670 --> 0:30:57.230 you know, if you bring up the subject of, well, 0:30:57.270 --> 0:30:58.750 you know, there were a lot of people who didn't 0:30:58.750 --> 0:31:05.390 have the right to vote in, uh, 1815. Yeah. Compared 0:31:05.390 --> 0:31:09.150 to what, you know, Gordon Wood was here, the great historian, 0:31:09.150 --> 0:31:14.230 Gordon Wood, and he, he, um, answered a question, uh, uh, 0:31:14.310 --> 0:31:16.950 might have been a question from me, actually, but that 0:31:16.950 --> 0:31:19.990 so much of the criticism of America proceeds from an 0:31:19.990 --> 0:31:23.310 ignorance of what else was going on in the world. Yes. 0:31:23.710 --> 0:31:28.190 Compared to what? Were we, uh, stingy in the giving, 0:31:28.230 --> 0:31:31.710 providing the right to vote compared to nobody. We were 0:31:31.710 --> 0:31:34.060 we were way ahead of the rest of the world. 0:31:34.060 --> 0:31:37.260 We were ahead of the world in, uh, in the 0:31:37.300 --> 0:31:43.180 anti-slavery movement. The first Anti-Slavery society was founded here. Um, uh, 0:31:43.300 --> 0:31:50.459 so yes, there's much to criticize. Um, but begin with a, the, 0:31:51.220 --> 0:31:56.140 maybe the 800 zero foot view of most of human 0:31:56.140 --> 0:32:03.060 history has been really brutal and extremely difficult. And we, um, 0:32:03.140 --> 0:32:05.900 we have achieved a level of freedom and a level 0:32:05.900 --> 0:32:11.180 of prosperity that would be the envy of Louis the 14th, uh, 0:32:11.220 --> 0:32:14.940 the greatest kings and pashas of history. Uh, we have 0:32:14.940 --> 0:32:19.380 that for almost everybody. Mhm. Um, and yet we don't, 0:32:19.420 --> 0:32:23.900 we lack perspective on that, on just, just how far 0:32:23.900 --> 0:32:26.740 we've come. So, so in a sense, we need to 0:32:26.780 --> 0:32:30.660 know more about, uh, the rest of history. I would, 0:32:30.700 --> 0:32:34.090 I would love to embed American history in the history 0:32:34.090 --> 0:32:36.930 of the world, and people would see more clearly how 0:32:36.970 --> 0:32:40.930 exceptional we are. But we know we know too much 0:32:40.930 --> 0:32:45.730 about certain details and not. And we don't stand back 0:32:45.730 --> 0:32:48.370 and look at the whole picture. You know, when you 0:32:48.850 --> 0:32:53.090 think of how when someone dies and you have your 0:32:53.130 --> 0:32:56.610 you have to write a eulogy to that person. You know, 0:32:56.650 --> 0:32:59.650 you want to be truthful. You don't want everybody to say, what, 0:32:59.690 --> 0:33:04.690 who is he talking about? But you want to look 0:33:04.730 --> 0:33:07.890 at the arc of their lives and what what that 0:33:07.890 --> 0:33:12.170 life meant. And I'm not saying we should eulogize America. 0:33:12.170 --> 0:33:17.530 We're not done yet. But I'm thinking something like that perspective. 0:33:17.570 --> 0:33:20.690 How do you draw back? Maybe not a eulogy, maybe 0:33:20.730 --> 0:33:24.490 an obituary, uh, a lengthy obituary in the New York 0:33:24.490 --> 0:33:27.290 Times or someplace, you know, you don't want it to 0:33:27.290 --> 0:33:30.290 be to bring out. Well, you know, he was really 0:33:30.290 --> 0:33:35.160 mean to his dog. And so, you know, it's, um, 0:33:35.440 --> 0:33:39.600 that's not really important. The important thing is that he, uh, 0:33:39.800 --> 0:33:43.040 did you know he created some institution that has, uh, 0:33:43.040 --> 0:33:48.040 blessed the life of, uh, of countless people. Um, so 0:33:48.040 --> 0:33:55.520 keep perspective and, and, you know, we're so worried about, um, being, uh, 0:33:55.800 --> 0:34:00.800 having an overly hyper patriotic view. I think we go 0:34:00.800 --> 0:34:03.440 to extremes in this that we don't want to, we 0:34:03.480 --> 0:34:06.000 don't want to think we're better than other people and 0:34:06.000 --> 0:34:09.759 so on. I think, let's be honest about who we 0:34:09.760 --> 0:34:12.640 are and to be honest about who we are. It's 0:34:12.640 --> 0:34:17.040 pretty glorious thing, uh, in the broad span of human history. 0:34:17.080 --> 0:34:20.359 Yes. Doctor Bill McClay with us is peace, memory and 0:34:20.360 --> 0:34:24.439 America's birthday over at American Heritage. Are you concerned, as 0:34:24.440 --> 0:34:28.000 we talk about the shared memories of the past, that 0:34:28.000 --> 0:34:30.960 it's becoming more difficult for us as a country to 0:34:31.110 --> 0:34:35.190 create new shared memories that we were not doing the 0:34:35.230 --> 0:34:37.950 same things anymore. We're not watching the same things. We 0:34:37.950 --> 0:34:41.390 don't see the same movies. We don't have the same experiences. 0:34:41.390 --> 0:34:45.030 In many ways over the past ten years, 15 years. 0:34:45.070 --> 0:34:48.590 Does that worry you in terms of making new institutional 0:34:48.630 --> 0:34:50.310 type memories for our country? 0:34:51.510 --> 0:34:53.509 Well, that's a really great point, Scott. And I have 0:34:53.510 --> 0:34:55.709 to confess to you that I haven't been worrying about 0:34:55.710 --> 0:34:59.029 it up until now. And now I'm worried. No, you're 0:34:59.030 --> 0:35:01.750 absolutely right. I haven't thought a lot because I'm always 0:35:01.750 --> 0:35:04.710 looking backwards. Being a historian, I haven't thought a lot 0:35:04.710 --> 0:35:09.029 about this, that. And when we do try to um 0:35:09.390 --> 0:35:15.109 it it's often half the country says nyet to, uh, 0:35:15.270 --> 0:35:18.110 you know, that's just the, the president I hate whether 0:35:18.110 --> 0:35:21.950 it's Barack Obama or Donald Trump. Um, you know, I'm 0:35:22.270 --> 0:35:25.390 not speaking for myself there. I'm just saying that whatever 0:35:25.390 --> 0:35:27.549 half it is. So it's going to be people who 0:35:27.590 --> 0:35:29.950 are simply rejected out of hand because of the political 0:35:29.950 --> 0:35:33.939 party or that the. The leader in question is is 0:35:33.940 --> 0:35:37.860 not to their liking. To put it mildly, in some cases. Uh, 0:35:38.260 --> 0:35:41.540 so I do think I think that's a real challenge. 0:35:41.540 --> 0:35:45.219 I have served I'm continuing to serve on the US 0:35:45.700 --> 0:35:52.180 Commission on the Semiquincentennial, which thankfully everybody's now calling America 250. 0:35:52.420 --> 0:35:56.180 Easier to say. It is easier to say. And actually 0:35:56.219 --> 0:35:59.180 Semiquincentennial is kind of a stupid term because it's sort 0:35:59.180 --> 0:36:04.379 of half, you know, the half of 500. That's not 0:36:04.380 --> 0:36:07.420 exactly a very elegant way to do things. And we've 0:36:07.420 --> 0:36:12.300 had a real problem with that because, um, uh, we've 0:36:12.300 --> 0:36:17.820 been divided, you know, uh, we're appointed, you know, half 0:36:17.940 --> 0:36:21.540 by Republican leaders. I was appointed by Paul Ryan, uh, 0:36:21.940 --> 0:36:26.140 remember him? And, uh, and others were appointed by Nancy 0:36:26.140 --> 0:36:29.850 Pelosi or Harry Reid. And we've gotten, uh, not a 0:36:29.850 --> 0:36:33.170 great deal accomplished, I think I can say publicly. Um, 0:36:33.330 --> 0:36:38.490 because of these conflicts over, uh, what, what people want 0:36:38.530 --> 0:36:43.770 to memorialize. Because that's really what we're talking about. Um, um, 0:36:43.770 --> 0:36:48.130 President Trump wants to have a garden of American heroes. Uh, 0:36:48.170 --> 0:36:50.690 a lot of people are just viscerally opposed to that, 0:36:50.730 --> 0:36:55.250 to the whole idea of heroes commemorating heroes or the 0:36:55.250 --> 0:36:59.610 wrong kind of heroes. So it's very difficult. 0:36:59.969 --> 0:37:03.610 Doctor McClay, how would you compare these discussions you're having 0:37:03.610 --> 0:37:07.690 now around America? 250 with what we experienced around America 0:37:07.690 --> 0:37:10.009 200 in 1976. 0:37:10.410 --> 0:37:12.210 There was a lot of the same kind of conflict, 0:37:12.250 --> 0:37:15.370 not quite as intense as now, but it was hard 0:37:15.370 --> 0:37:17.810 to come up with things that people would unify. There 0:37:17.810 --> 0:37:22.170 was a People's Bicentennial, which was the sort of early 0:37:22.170 --> 0:37:27.930 form of 16, 19, uh, oppositional ism. And although they 0:37:27.930 --> 0:37:31.210 did a lot of good things, actually. I give them credit, 0:37:31.570 --> 0:37:34.450 much less credit than I give to the current opposition. 0:37:34.489 --> 0:37:38.250 You know what really brought the nation together? And you're 0:37:38.250 --> 0:37:40.610 not old enough, Scott, I don't think to have actually 0:37:40.610 --> 0:37:45.650 experienced this, but there was a something that a promoter 0:37:45.650 --> 0:37:49.570 in New York dreamed up of having the tall ships, 0:37:49.570 --> 0:37:55.810 that is, these wooden sailing ships, magnificent sailing ships, three 0:37:55.850 --> 0:38:02.050 masted or more ships sail into parade into New York Harbor. 0:38:02.130 --> 0:38:02.690 Mhm. 0:38:03.010 --> 0:38:08.489 And, uh, it was, it was massively, uh, unifying it 0:38:08.570 --> 0:38:12.170 partly because it didn't it didn't dredge up the issues 0:38:12.170 --> 0:38:15.770 of Vietnam or race relations or whatever was on the 0:38:15.770 --> 0:38:20.050 stove at the time. It was, and it wasn't even 0:38:20.050 --> 0:38:23.569 all American history because there were there were French and 0:38:23.570 --> 0:38:28.720 Spanish and there were there was a beautiful ship from Uruguay. Uh, 0:38:28.880 --> 0:38:32.319 in this procession of ships where they captivated the country, 0:38:32.360 --> 0:38:36.719 8 million people watched it, uh, along the shoreline of 0:38:36.719 --> 0:38:40.000 New York Harbor. The whole nation watched it on television. 0:38:40.160 --> 0:38:45.040 It was it dominated an entire issue of life magazine, 0:38:45.040 --> 0:38:48.120 which was a, uh, well, there's nothing to compare it to. 0:38:48.160 --> 0:38:50.239 Which is your point, Scott. There's nothing to compare it to. 0:38:50.280 --> 0:38:53.120 My life magazine. Everyone in the nation read life magazine, 0:38:54.000 --> 0:38:57.000 but that was. I kept trying to think of an 0:38:57.000 --> 0:38:59.960 event comparable to the. To that I never was come up. 0:39:00.000 --> 0:39:04.120 I thought something to do with railroads might. Everybody loves railroads, 0:39:04.120 --> 0:39:07.560 and America is all about railroads, at least in the 0:39:07.560 --> 0:39:11.320 first certain phase of our history. But you're right. It's 0:39:11.320 --> 0:39:15.880 very difficult to, uh, even space, you know, we're back 0:39:15.880 --> 0:39:19.520 in the space, and an awful lot of the country 0:39:19.719 --> 0:39:24.480 could say, who cares? Or worse. And, you know, and 0:39:24.480 --> 0:39:27.549 they don't like Elon Musk, so they don't like space. 0:39:27.590 --> 0:39:30.710 I mean, it's it's it is what it is. I'm 0:39:30.750 --> 0:39:36.270 not going to criticize anybody but shared memories without them. 0:39:36.270 --> 0:39:40.189 You don't have a coherent entity, just as you don't 0:39:40.190 --> 0:39:44.709 have a coherent family when it's shattered by divorce or 0:39:44.710 --> 0:39:49.989 even death. You know, even something that is non-judgmental is 0:39:49.989 --> 0:39:52.390 the fact that one part I had this happen to 0:39:52.430 --> 0:40:00.430 my father died prematurely, and it was very difficult to reconstruct. 0:40:00.430 --> 0:40:02.989 And I'm not sure we ever completely did the family 0:40:03.030 --> 0:40:04.310 sort of memory bank. 0:40:04.510 --> 0:40:07.670 Doctor Bill McClay from Hillsdale College with us, Doctor McClay. 0:40:07.989 --> 0:40:11.270 Are there examples from our history that should give us 0:40:11.270 --> 0:40:16.310 some hope of closing whatever hostile political divide in America 0:40:16.310 --> 0:40:17.390 that we have today? 0:40:17.670 --> 0:40:20.230 Look at where we've come through. Look at the Civil 0:40:20.230 --> 0:40:24.910 War and even the revolution as Ken Burns and others 0:40:24.910 --> 0:40:29.180 are bringing out. The revolution had a Civil war aspect 0:40:29.180 --> 0:40:32.580 to it. Um, of course, a lot of the others 0:40:32.700 --> 0:40:35.779 loyalists went to Canada, but um, but, but there were 0:40:35.780 --> 0:40:39.420 some that stayed and we somehow weathered that. But the 0:40:39.420 --> 0:40:44.100 Civil War, it's astonishing that we were able to reunite 0:40:44.100 --> 0:40:47.180 after that. I if you stand back and look at it, 0:40:47.219 --> 0:40:51.939 if you look at comparable situations in Europe where you know, 0:40:51.980 --> 0:40:57.220 you have a constant bickering over national lines and irredentist movements, 0:40:57.260 --> 0:41:01.260 and we haven't had anything like that. Of course, there 0:41:01.260 --> 0:41:06.299 are people in the South who just never quite reconciled, um, uh, 0:41:06.540 --> 0:41:11.340 them to themselves to the defeat of the South. Um, or, uh, 0:41:12.340 --> 0:41:14.700 you know, and there are northerners who still think everything 0:41:14.700 --> 0:41:17.100 wrong with the country is because of bloody South is 0:41:17.100 --> 0:41:18.580 still there. And if we could get rid of them, 0:41:18.580 --> 0:41:20.859 we would be so much better off. We do have 0:41:20.860 --> 0:41:25.690 people like that, but by and large, we've reunited. And 0:41:25.850 --> 0:41:30.690 this is partly due to the genius of Lincoln. But 0:41:30.690 --> 0:41:34.170 although he wasn't around for the really hard, heavy lifting, 0:41:34.690 --> 0:41:40.050 we had a really a mostly failed effort at reconstruction. 0:41:40.530 --> 0:41:44.250 It did accomplish some important things with the three constitutional 0:41:44.250 --> 0:41:46.770 amendments that were passed and a few other things. But 0:41:47.330 --> 0:41:49.610 and yet, and we've had to go through a whole 0:41:49.850 --> 0:41:53.410 period of Jim Crow and and the civil rights movement 0:41:53.410 --> 0:41:59.850 to kindly finally bring African Americans into political life. Um, 0:41:59.850 --> 0:42:04.690 it's been a struggle, but we've done it. We've done it. And, uh, 0:42:05.530 --> 0:42:09.890 it's look, even Germany is having, we don't get it 0:42:09.890 --> 0:42:11.489 doesn't get a lot of press in this country. But 0:42:11.489 --> 0:42:17.370 culturally speaking, West and East Germany are still very far apart. Um, uh, 0:42:17.650 --> 0:42:24.170 so I think the success of our passing through and 0:42:24.880 --> 0:42:28.560 the Civil War is not just a, you know, sort 0:42:28.560 --> 0:42:31.240 of dark memory that we try not to think about. 0:42:31.520 --> 0:42:34.920 People love to study the Civil War, to go to 0:42:34.960 --> 0:42:39.880 the battlefield. And in Southerners and northerners alike. It's part 0:42:39.880 --> 0:42:43.160 of our heritage that we embrace in all of its 0:42:43.160 --> 0:42:48.520 tragic bloodiness. It's amazing. Um, so I and it's one 0:42:48.520 --> 0:42:53.040 of the rich veins of our, our, of our shared memory. Yeah. Um, uh, 0:42:53.200 --> 0:42:55.799 you know, you may call it Sharpsburg and I call 0:42:55.800 --> 0:42:58.280 it Antietam, but we still remember the same thing. 0:42:58.320 --> 0:42:58.960 That's right. 0:42:59.320 --> 0:43:01.480 Hey, can I make a pitch for one other book? 0:43:01.760 --> 0:43:05.479 I also just published recently, or I co-edited with another 0:43:05.480 --> 0:43:09.839 man a book called The Jewish Roots of American Liberty. 0:43:09.880 --> 0:43:13.120 And I really commend it to you. It's mainly written 0:43:13.120 --> 0:43:15.880 by people other than me, but I did edit it. Yeah. 0:43:16.040 --> 0:43:18.480 And you talked about it on this show. So people 0:43:18.480 --> 0:43:20.399 can go back in the archives and hear a great 0:43:20.400 --> 0:43:24.430 conversation about that book. Doctor Bill McClay is Victor Davis 0:43:24.430 --> 0:43:27.469 Hanson chair in Classical History and Western Civilization here at 0:43:27.469 --> 0:43:31.310 Hillsdale College, author of The Wonderful Land of Hope and 0:43:31.350 --> 0:43:35.030 this recent essay at American Heritage Memory and America's Birthday. 0:43:35.310 --> 0:43:37.270 Doctor McClay, thanks so much for joining us. 0:43:37.310 --> 0:43:38.230 Absolutely. 0:43:38.270 --> 0:43:41.350 That will wrap up this edition of the Radio Free 0:43:41.390 --> 0:43:44.750 Hillsdale Hour. Our thanks to Doctor Khalil Habib and Doctor 0:43:44.750 --> 0:43:48.310 Bill McClay for joining us on this special America 250 0:43:48.350 --> 0:43:51.910 edition of the program. Remember, you can hear new episodes 0:43:51.910 --> 0:43:55.069 every week on this station. You also can find extended 0:43:55.070 --> 0:43:57.710 versions of some of our interviews, or listen any time 0:43:57.710 --> 0:44:04.750 to the podcast. Find it@podcasts.hillsdale.edu or wherever you get your audio. 0:44:05.150 --> 0:44:09.190 Until next week, I'm Scott Bertram, and this has been 0:44:09.510 --> 0:44:12.070 the radio free Hillsdale Hour.