S1: From the historic campus of Hillsdale College in Hillsdale, Michigan,
S1: where the good, the true and the beautiful are taught,
S1: nurtured and honored. This is the radio free Hillsdale Hour,
S1: bringing the activity and education of the college to listeners
S1: across the country.
S2: What we lose in this hyper specialized, intense focus on
S2: one thing and ferreting out all that we can about
S2: one thing, we lose the big picture.
S3: This is your host, Scott Bertram. Welcome to the Radio
S3: Free Hillsdale Hour. Part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network.
S3: And happy 250th Birthday to America. This is a very
S3: special edition of the program as we talk with two
S3: of our esteemed professors here at Hillsdale College about Independence
S3: Day and America. 250. That voice you heard was doctor
S3: Bill McClay. Victor Davis Hanson, Chair in Classical History and
S3: Western Civilization here at Hillsdale. We'll talk later in today's
S3: program about an essay he wrote about memory at America's Birthday. First,
S3: we're joined by Doctor Khalil Habib. He's associate professor of politics,
S3: and Allison and Dorothy Rouse, professor in politics here at
S3: Hillsdale College. Doctor Habib, thanks for joining us.
S4: Scott, it's always an honor.
S3: Talking about a wonderful essay that you wrote over at
S3: National Review. The importance of the 4th of July, according
S3: to the Adams family. Now, many Americans think of Independence
S3: Day as a celebration of military victory over Britain. But
S3: you argue John Quincy Adams saw it a bit differently.
S3: What's the distinction there?
S4: Well, of course, the Declaration of Independence was occasioned by
S4: abuses by King George the Third, and it is a
S4: celebration of our military victory over Britain. So I would
S4: never want to downplay that. But in two speeches that
S4: John Quincy Adams gave, 1 in 1821 and 1 in 1837.
S4: He wanted to celebrate Independence Day by reminding us of
S4: some of the most important principles that informed the Declaration
S4: of Independence. And among them. And we can talk about
S4: we can talk about it more as as as we continue.
S4: He wanted to show and remind Americans that the principles
S4: of the declaration first were rooted in a profound break
S4: with a certain European tradition that emphasized, for example, conquest, servitude,
S4: divine right of kings. And that was the focus of
S4: his 1821 speech. In 1837, he emphasizes the Christian roots.
S4: He believes that America plays a role in providential history,
S4: and he reminds his fellow Americans about the Christian foundation
S4: of those principles. And so he thought the best way
S4: to celebrate Independence Day was to not just read it,
S4: but to actually discuss it with fellow Americans and to
S4: always keep it close at hand.
S3: This matters a lot for us here in America. Adams
S3: also thought the declaration mattered for humanity more broadly. What
S3: does the declaration? How does it speak to humanity?
S4: Yeah. So one of the in the first speech in 1821, he.
S4: Secretary of State, and he's addressing himself to the US
S4: House of Representatives. And he recognizes that the declaration speaks
S4: on behalf of all human beings because it's founded ultimately
S4: on natural law. Mhm. And the idea of natural rights
S4: as inalienable rights that we have to, to life, liberty
S4: and the pursuit of happiness. But in spite of the
S4: fact that it does have a universal appeal and it
S4: touches upon humanity broadly, as you said in that specific speech,
S4: he does want to advocate for a restrained foreign policy
S4: because he knows that there would be a temptation to
S4: want to impose these principles on other regimes. And so
S4: that's where you get that very famous line where he says,
S4: do not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy.
S4: So that's a tricky point. I think, in the declaration,
S4: on the one hand, it's universal, but on the other hand,
S4: you have to curb your enthusiasm for for simply searching,
S4: as he says, for monsters abroad.
S3: There are some today, even as we celebrate America 250,
S3: that see the declaration as a statement simply about America's past,
S3: a document of its time. The Addamses seem to have
S3: viewed it. You argue as as as a guide for
S3: America's future. Is that a fair assessment?
S4: Oh, yeah. No, no. For sure. Um, so John Adams,
S4: the father, and of course, John Quincy Adams, the son,
S4: always took any opportunity to, to write about the declaration,
S4: to speak about it. And they both emphasized the importance
S4: of just moral obligation and civic duty that every American has.
S4: When you live in a regime that embodies those principles.
S4: So his father, for example, John Adams, played a big
S4: role in drafting the Massachusetts Declaration of Rights. And in
S4: article two, he talks about, quote, rights and duties of
S4: all men. And in that instance, he was talking about
S4: the right of conscience. But the point is, it wasn't
S4: just simply a historical document. History occasioned it. Those abuses.
S4: But you can't have a a set of principles grounded
S4: in the law of nature and nature's God and think
S4: that they just simply have a historical shelf life.
S3: Doctor Khalil Habib with us, his piece@nationalreview.com. The importance of
S3: the 4th of July, according to the Adams family. I
S3: want to take just a brief sidebar away from the
S3: piece itself, because I've been talking to a lot of
S3: people about America. 250 And John Adams comes up again
S3: and again and again as this this real engine moving
S3: the country towards this this break of independence and the declaration.
S3: Can you tell us a little bit about Adams and
S3: then John Quincy Adams, in terms of his influence, could
S3: be compare and contrast John Adams and John Quincy Adams.
S4: Yeah, they're very similar. I mean, I don't see much
S4: of a difference with respect to the declaration. I think
S4: the great contribution I see from the senior the elder is, um,
S4: he does write a work thoughts on government and what
S4: I love about that. And I would encourage every American
S4: to take a look to take a look at it
S4: is he unpacks what the founders meant by the pursuit
S4: of happiness, which I think has created a lot of problems. Yeah,
S4: primarily from the right. Interestingly enough, there are some conservative
S4: critics of the founding who attribute all of our moral
S4: decline and degeneracy to the principles of the founding. They
S4: say that all of our problems today, um, they are
S4: really the result of the principles that were baked in it.
S4: And so what are they referring to when they say that? Well,
S4: among other places, they think that the pursuit of happiness
S4: is this relativistic. You pursue your happiness one way, Scott,
S4: I pursue mine. Who's to say it's just indeterminate world
S4: that we live in? Let's just agree to just get along.
S4: And that kind of relativism doesn't give the founding of
S4: a moral anchor. What I love about the elder John
S4: Adams is in Thoughts on Government. He essentially confirms what
S4: many of us already know about the founding. Happiness in
S4: that context, according to him, was always in reference to
S4: moral virtue. It wasn't an indeterminate lifestyle. And and he's
S4: essentially just developing what Thomas Jefferson, the primary writer of
S4: the declaration, simply said to Henry Lee when he wrote
S4: to him to explain the meaning and the context of
S4: the Declaration of Independence. Jefferson then tells him that he
S4: drew upon principles that go all the way back to Aristotle,
S4: and anyone familiar with Aristotle knows that the centrality of
S4: happiness to politics as Aristotle's great theme. And for Aristotle,
S4: that happiness, that eudaimonia is a kind of moral flourishing.
S4: So I think that alone constitutes a massive contribution by
S4: the father. And what I love about the son is
S4: that he shows us in his own actions what it
S4: what it should mean to be a great American. And
S4: you don't celebrate the 4th of July. That's to decellularize it.
S4: You celebrate Independence Day. That's like saying, I celebrate the 25th, I.
S3: I make this point all the time. I mean, at
S3: some point it's just semantic. But on the other hand,
S3: it really means something. You're not just celebrating a date
S3: on the calendar. There's much, much more than that.
S4: Look, would you refer to Christmas as just the 25th? Yeah,
S4: of course not. Now, when you reduce something like, you know,
S4: our Independence Day to the 25th to the fourth, then
S4: it just becomes about mattress sales and barbecues. And that's fine.
S4: I'm actually looking to replace a few myself, so I'm not.
S4: No that's okay. But I think what he what he
S4: does that I think so well is he shows us
S4: in his own actions, what it what it means to
S4: reflect on it. It's not simply a history lesson. It's
S4: an attempt to try to explain how those principles really
S4: created the consensus that formed the founding, the American mind,
S4: as Jefferson says. And it's the only basis, I think,
S4: of a unity among our citizens. And they and it
S4: really should help inform a national cohesion. So I think
S4: those speeches really should, should inspire, should inspire us, as
S4: I think they were intended.
S3: That's Doctor Khalil Habib here at Hillsdale College. We'll talk
S3: more with him in just a moment. This America 250
S3: celebration is the perfect time to dig into our online
S3: courses here at Hillsdale College and Hillsdale College. Online Courses
S3: Podcast right now is featuring the great American Story A
S3: land of Hope. Your teacher for this is doctor Bill McClay.
S3: We'll hear from him later on in today's program, the
S3: Great American Story explores the history of America as a
S3: land of hope founded on high principles. It presents the
S3: great triumphs and achievements of our nation's past and the
S3: shortcomings and failures. It offers a broad and unbiased study
S3: of the kind essential to the cultivation of intelligent patriotism.
S3: And right now, it's a perfect time to start the
S3: Great American Story, part of Hillsdale College's Online Courses podcast.
S3: Find it@podcast.hillsdale.edu or wherever you get your audio. Doctor Khalil
S3: Habib continues now associate professor of politics Allison and Dorothy Rouse,
S3: professor in politics here at Hillsdale College. Also this essay over@nationalreview.com.
S3: The importance of the 4th of July. According to the
S3: Adams family doctor Habib, how does self-government at the personal
S3: level relate to self-government at the political level?
S4: For the exact reason that Saint Augustine says you have
S4: as many masters as you have vices. So if you're
S4: just tyrannized by your appetites, by your vices, nobody in
S4: their right mind would call you a free person. You're
S4: an unfree person. You're a natural slave, so to speak.
S4: And what Locke and what the founders and what the
S4: adamses always distinguish is liberty from license. Liberty is not
S4: license to do anything you want. Liberty is a friend
S4: of law of order. And self-government essentially means you have
S4: the virtue to restrain your desires, forestall instant gratification, and
S4: no human being who can't govern himself is fit to
S4: govern and live in society. And so if you're not
S4: going to govern yourself, I'm sure the state would be
S4: happy to fill that void. And so the idea actually,
S4: of a small government is predicated on the notion that
S4: we have little government here in our own soul, and
S4: that's sufficient. And so that, I think is a very
S4: important and good question.
S3: Yeah. This idea that liberty and virtue are inseparable, is
S3: that something that we have lost? Perhaps many of us
S3: have lost modern day America.
S4: Sadly, I think so. I think there's too much of
S4: an emphasis on liberty defined as whatever my will desires. And, um, and,
S4: and whatever that is. Um, when you, when you liberate
S4: the passions from any restraint, you create a condition where
S4: humans can't live with limits. Mhm. Think of all of
S4: the addictions that people develop because there's just no, there's
S4: no adults left in the room, culturally speaking. And when
S4: you do that, you're not suited to live in a
S4: world where you have to limit yourself. I mean, that's
S4: really what virtue is in a way. Well, the laws
S4: are also a limit. Our Constitution is a limit. It's
S4: a limit on power and abuses of power. And so
S4: the more our society encourages, I think, license, the more
S4: it's going to rub up against our constitutional order. And
S4: then the next step would be to just live in
S4: an anarchic state. Because once you liberate those desires, you
S4: no longer listen to the voice of reason or law.
S4: There's no reason to have a constitution. You end up
S4: living in a post-constitutional world. And I think that's a
S4: very dangerous place to be in.
S3: Founders often talked about rights and responsibilities together. How did
S3: John Adams and John Quincy Adams understand that relationship?
S4: Yeah. So every right does entail a certain kind of duty.
S4: There's two ways to look at it. So if you
S4: have a right to property, I have a moral duty
S4: to not steal it. And that's just, I think so
S4: clear and obvious. It's self-evident. The other side of duty
S4: is John Adams, for example, emphasized civic duties, the duty
S4: to defend other people's rights, the duty of citizens to
S4: pay their taxes, support their government. But of course, it's
S4: always predicated and conditional. You wouldn't, uh, tolerate a tyrannical
S4: form of government, hence the declaration's sort of escape route.
S4: You know, after a long train of abuses, we do
S4: have a right to either reform or abolish. But there's
S4: always a there's a recognition that these rights are not
S4: just simply individualistic. I think that's another thing. Some on
S4: the right often think they think it's just a solipsistic
S4: country with no regard for the common good. But, um,
S4: rights and duties always are, are two sides of the
S4: same coin.
S3: Talking with Doctor Khalil Habib. His piece@nationalreview.com. The importance of
S3: the 4th of July. According to the Adams family. What
S3: maybe should we Americans be celebrating today in 2026 that
S3: we're not celebrating enough?
S4: I think it and there's a lot of free sources
S4: out there. I'm not just simply plugging Hillsdale, but I think, um,
S4: you know, I think just reading it carefully and then
S4: reading those speeches, you could literally any one of your
S4: listeners could just Google John Quincy Adams speeches on Independence Day,
S4: and they'll they'll find the 1821 and the 1837 speeches there. Um,
S4: so accessible and I think, you know, let him be
S4: a guide. Let him at least help shed some light
S4: on it. I think that's what they intended. I mean,
S4: I would go so far as to say that, you know,
S4: the declaration is many things. It's in his. You can't
S4: exhaust it. But one thing I would absolutely argue is
S4: that the declaration is a microcosm of what civic education
S4: should look like. It should always reflect about human nature
S4: in relation to God and in relation to politics and
S4: in relation to one's fellow citizens. And I think in
S4: that regard, you can almost see an architecture of a
S4: classical liberal education. The letter, again, that Jefferson writes to
S4: Henry Lee is very instructive. He mentions four great thinkers,
S4: two ancients, Aristotle and Cicero, and two moderns, Locke and Sidney.
S4: So I think among the things I would do, I mean,
S4: I would read those speeches, I would take a look
S4: at Jefferson's letter to Henry Lee. All of this is
S4: available for free online. Yeah. And then think about what
S4: kind of education would be required to really understand it.
S4: Because I think we're we're driving a car where we
S4: refuse to look at the owner's manual and don't know
S4: when what light, when it's blinking, what that means and
S4: how to fix it. And I think the tendency to
S4: just assume government can fix everything is dangerous. Because what
S4: if government becomes the problem? And so I think we
S4: need to restore the vocabulary, the the moral and political
S4: and religious conception and mindset that the founders had. So
S4: we can be responsible citizens and do our part.
S3: You actually encourage in the piece that people should read
S3: the declaration aloud on Independence Day this year. What happens
S3: when we when we actually do that, read it carefully,
S3: maybe even specifically with the grievance section of the declaration.
S3: What do we what do we hear when we hear
S3: that aloud?
S4: I think you believe it or not. If you were
S4: to read the declaration out loud one, I think it's transformative.
S4: Two I think what might surprise you is you will
S4: actually see the Constitution in it. I'm glad you brought
S4: up the grievances. That's actually one of my favorite parts.
S4: The grievances at first. If you don't know what you're
S4: looking for, just look like a random list of grievances.
S4: But if you look at them carefully, they're classified and
S4: categorized in terms of certain abuses that belong to certain
S4: branches of government. So there's judicial abuses. We have executive
S4: and we have legislative. Now, they don't explicitly state that,
S4: but you see, they actually line up with how the
S4: American Constitution, uh, will distribute the powers. And, uh, and
S4: so you could say once you see them that way,
S4: which I think it's suddenly something invisible becomes visible. Once
S4: you see it, you won't be able to unsee it.
S4: I think you'll see what, uh, we, at least at
S4: Hillsdale College have always argued, and that is that the
S4: declaration and the Constitution are two sides of the same coin.
S4: You can't really understand one without the other.
S3: The Adams is viewed Independence Day not just as a
S3: birthday party, as we've mentioned previously in the conversation, but
S3: also an annual recommitment to certain truths about the country.
S3: What truths should we recommit ourselves to this 4th of July,
S3: this Independence Day?
S4: God, family and country? I think it's pretty clear from
S4: their writings, from their speeches, that those three pillars form
S4: the foundation of a healthy society. And to see how
S4: the Constitution and the principles of the declaration support them
S4: is another way of providing or adding water to those pillars.
S4: We always talk about those three things, but I think
S4: if we put in the effort to see what the
S4: Adamses had had thought about these things and let them
S4: be our guides, I think it will really deepen our
S4: relations with one another and more importantly, to the founding.
S3: Doctor Khalil Habib is associate professor of politics here at
S3: Hillsdale College. Also Allison and Dorothy Rouse, professor in politics.
S3: His piece@nationalreview.com. The importance of the 4th of July. According
S3: to the Adams family, doctor Habib, thanks for joining us
S3: here on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour.
S4: Scott, it's always a pleasure. Thank you.
S3: Up next, doctor Bill McClay from Hillsdale College joins us.
S3: Memory and America's birthday. His topic I'm Scott Bertram. This
S3: is the radio free Hillsdale Hour. Welcome back to the
S3: radio free Hillsdale Hour. I'm Scott Bertram. Follow us on
S3: X for updated show and guest information. We're at Hillsdale
S3: Radio and at h e podcasts for the Hillsdale College
S3: Podcast Network. We're joined by Doctor Wilfred McClay. He is
S3: Victor Davis Hanson Chair in Classical History and Western Civilization
S3: here at Hillsdale College. Also the author of the excellent
S3: book land of Hope and more recently, a piece at
S3: the American Heritage Online Memory at America's Birthday. That's what
S3: we'll talk about today. Doctor McClay, thanks for joining us.
S2: Well it's wonderful. It's always good to be with you Scott.
S2: You're the best interviewer around.
S3: Thank you for the compliment. I appreciate it. The questions
S3: won't be easier just because you said.
S2: Oh, I know.
S3: So it's a great essay over at American Heritage. Um,
S3: why do moments where we're approaching the 4th of July,
S3: as we as we speak. Why do moments like that.
S3: Why should they matter to us more than just fireworks
S3: and tradition? What do those moments mean for us as Americans?
S2: Well, sure, fireworks is great. I'm all for fireworks. I'm
S2: all for festivity. Hot dogs, apple pie, Subaru, Chevrolet, whatever. But, um. No,
S2: it's very. Look, if you think of, um, we mark, uh,
S2: time by, uh, signifying the certain dates, certain moments, whether,
S2: whether it's the Sabbath, whether it's, uh, a birthday, uh,
S2: you know, and then of course, July 4th, we treat
S2: as America's birthday. Mhm. John Adams would like it to
S2: have been July 2nd, but he, he did, as in
S2: so many things, he didn't get his way. Uh, and
S2: it's a way of, uh, when we mark a time,
S2: the repetition of a time like a birthday, we're, uh,
S2: it's an act of memory. It's an act of reconnecting
S2: ourselves to something that happened before. It, it, it articulates
S2: time instead of just being one sort of thing after
S2: another in the kind of flow of life, it marks
S2: those moments that helped to define us and we returned
S2: to them. I mean, my example that I always like
S2: to give, although it's unfamiliar to many of our listeners,
S2: is the Seder meal on Passover that you celebrate, which
S2: they go through this sort of re-identification with the sort
S2: of primal foundational features of, of Jewish identity, the Passover,
S2: the passage to the Promised Land, and the fact that
S2: it was God who delivered them is always there. And
S2: you're passing that on. Exodus where this is prescribed, uh, says,
S2: you know, you tell your sons, tell your children the
S2: Lord did this for me. Mhm. Um, and so you
S2: have this chain of memory. Uh, and in the case
S2: of the Jews, it's a really a memory of who
S2: we are, who they are. Um, and, uh, I think
S2: always we, the 4th of July should remind us who
S2: we are that we have our origins as a people
S2: in this act of separating from the British Empire and
S2: acknowledging ourselves not just as a separate entity, but an
S2: entity that was dedicated to certain ideals. And these ideals
S2: are aspirational. You know, we're not perfect. And sometimes I
S2: feel as if our historical consciousness is hindered by the
S2: fact that perfection is what we expect from ourselves, because
S2: we profess and we aspire to ideals of perfection. But anyway,
S2: we renew that. You know, I I'm a church going person.
S2: And and in church on Sunday, there was always, uh,
S2: this general confession of sin. And you, you confess your
S2: sins and you say, I'm going to do better the
S2: next week, knowing that chances are slim that I'll do
S2: much better. But you always commit to that aspiration, which
S2: does make us better and does sort of define who
S2: we are. We're a, um, I mean, among the church going,
S2: we are a, uh, it's always in seek of redemption,
S2: always in need of redemption. That's who we are. So
S2: I think there's definitely a connection between marking these days.
S2: And of course, just to go into the religious sphere,
S2: there's Christmas, there's Easter, there's any number of other, uh,
S2: holy days which we get holidays, but, um, that are, uh,
S2: you know, Christmas doesn't reoccur every December 25th. I mean,
S2: Jesus is not reborn. Everything. We remember this and it's
S2: the act of remembrance that we're connect ourselves to the
S2: foundational elements of our own past.
S3: One of the main arguments in this essay, Memory at
S3: America's Birthday, is that without shared memory, that we risk
S3: forgetting who we are. What does that look like when
S3: it happens to a country? Do we have examples of
S3: this happening in history?
S2: Well, I think we're we're seeing it. But if I
S2: could just in a moment. I mean, I think the
S2: really powerful thing for people who are skeptical about this
S2: idea is to think about first, about an individual. And
S2: I think almost all of us have been touched at
S2: some point by dementia, Alzheimer's disease, some kind of tragic
S2: memory loss in someone we know that really literally does
S2: end them up in a point where they don't fully
S2: know who they are. Um, and they don't recognize the
S2: people that have been integral to their lives, their spouse,
S2: their children, their relatives, their parents even. And it's extremely
S2: tragic cases. So who we are is in part dependent
S2: on the memories that we have of the others in
S2: their life and sharing the memories with them. Uh, remember
S2: what happened on your fifth birthday? Remember? You know, when
S2: Uncle Ernie went crazy and started tearing the paintings off
S2: the wall? You know, I any number of things that
S2: at family gatherings, you you reminisce about and and in reminiscing,
S2: you share that memory. You share a sense of community
S2: more than community of commonality. That goes very, very deep.
S2: And if you don't have those, let's say, um, in
S2: cases of divorce, I mean, this is, uh, so difficult.
S2: I'm glad I've never had to undergo it, but there
S2: is this wrenching apart of shared memories. People who pictures
S2: that they treasured can no longer be posted on the
S2: wall because the ex is in them, or some people
S2: don't feel that strongly. But in a lot of cases
S2: there's this need to edit on your side, your past,
S2: and the other person edits it on his or her side.
S2: And it's for children. Look, this is just horrible. I'm
S2: my generation, the baby boom generation. One of their many
S2: sins was to sort of think, oh, the kids are
S2: all right. The kids are never all right. They may
S2: become stronger by working through their loss, but it is
S2: something very deep is lost by the loss of shared
S2: memories as a family.
S3: Now, Doctor McClay, can we extend that type of analogy
S3: to an entire nation like the United States?
S2: Well, of course you can. You can. And so things
S2: like the 4th of July, um, cease to have meaning
S2: if people don't know something about how and why and
S2: for the sake of what this country came into being
S2: and all of the people's Veterans Day. the people who
S2: have given their lives so that we can enjoy our
S2: fat and happy existence. That sense of gratitude, I mean Thanksgiving.
S2: I know people don't think about this Thanksgiving, and everybody
S2: loves Thanksgiving for the most part, unless you have a
S2: terrible family life, in which case you dread Thanksgiving. Which
S2: sort of proves my point. But in this secular era,
S2: I'd like to ask people, what do you when you think,
S2: don't you? When you think, when you're thanking, aren't you
S2: thanking somebody or something? Oh, I never thought about it
S2: that way. Oh, of course you haven't. But Thanksgiving implies, uh,
S2: that to whom we give thanks, that person persons, but
S2: also ultimately the divine person. We're we we presume it
S2: even though we maybe think we don't believe anymore. Well, actually,
S2: we're acting as if we do. And and Thanksgiving requires
S2: to be a really successful occasion. It requires remembering all
S2: of those things, all of the all of the past
S2: and all of the shared past.
S3: You suggest in this essay, Doctor McClay, that we might
S3: we might know more about our past, about the American past.
S3: But actually we we understand less. We're we're ignorant of more.
S3: How does that happen? What's going wrong?
S2: Yeah. Well, I think my profession. I blame my generation.
S2: Now I'm going to blame my profession. Uh, the professional
S2: historians who, uh, really, I and you see this lately, especially, uh, they,
S2: they kind of consider themselves custodians of the national memory,
S2: which I think is a great presumption. I've always felt
S2: that even when I was a graduate student, I saw
S2: the fallacy of that. But what's happened though, and here
S2: I will praise us. We have devised ways to go
S2: into areas of history that have been almost invisible. And
S2: I'll just give as an example, what was it like
S2: to be a slave in the antebellum South? What was
S2: it like and what was it like to be a
S2: slave here? You know, Kentucky, Louisiana sugar plantation. You know,
S2: what was it like in all of these different situations?
S2: Because slavery was not a monolithic experience. We know a
S2: lot more than than people were even interested in asking
S2: about what that condition was like. Um, and we have a,
S2: we have a national bad conscience about the existence of slavery.
S2: And I think that some, to some extent that's warranted.
S2: But what we lose in this hyper specialized, intense focus
S2: on one thing and ferreting out all that we can
S2: about one thing. We lose the big picture. Mhm. Um,
S2: what what people should come away, at least from a
S2: high school education with is a sense of the larger
S2: arc of American history, the trajectory of American history, how,
S2: you know, if you bring up the subject of, well,
S2: you know, there were a lot of people who didn't
S2: have the right to vote in, uh, 1815. Yeah. Compared
S2: to what, you know, Gordon Wood was here, the great historian,
S2: Gordon Wood, and he, he, um, answered a question, uh, uh,
S2: might have been a question from me, actually, but that
S2: so much of the criticism of America proceeds from an
S2: ignorance of what else was going on in the world. Yes.
S2: Compared to what? Were we, uh, stingy in the giving,
S2: providing the right to vote compared to nobody. We were
S2: we were way ahead of the rest of the world.
S2: We were ahead of the world in, uh, in the
S2: anti-slavery movement. The first Anti-Slavery society was founded here. Um, uh,
S2: so yes, there's much to criticize. Um, but begin with a, the,
S2: maybe the 800 zero foot view of most of human
S2: history has been really brutal and extremely difficult. And we, um,
S2: we have achieved a level of freedom and a level
S2: of prosperity that would be the envy of Louis the 14th, uh,
S2: the greatest kings and pashas of history. Uh, we have
S2: that for almost everybody. Mhm. Um, and yet we don't,
S2: we lack perspective on that, on just, just how far
S2: we've come. So, so in a sense, we need to
S2: know more about, uh, the rest of history. I would,
S2: I would love to embed American history in the history
S2: of the world, and people would see more clearly how
S2: exceptional we are. But we know we know too much
S2: about certain details and not. And we don't stand back
S2: and look at the whole picture. You know, when you
S2: think of how when someone dies and you have your
S2: you have to write a eulogy to that person. You know,
S2: you want to be truthful. You don't want everybody to say, what,
S2: who is he talking about? But you want to look
S2: at the arc of their lives and what what that
S2: life meant. And I'm not saying we should eulogize America.
S2: We're not done yet. But I'm thinking something like that perspective.
S2: How do you draw back? Maybe not a eulogy, maybe
S2: an obituary, uh, a lengthy obituary in the New York
S2: Times or someplace, you know, you don't want it to
S2: be to bring out. Well, you know, he was really
S2: mean to his dog. And so, you know, it's, um,
S2: that's not really important. The important thing is that he, uh,
S2: did you know he created some institution that has, uh,
S2: blessed the life of, uh, of countless people. Um, so
S2: keep perspective and, and, you know, we're so worried about, um, being, uh,
S2: having an overly hyper patriotic view. I think we go
S2: to extremes in this that we don't want to, we
S2: don't want to think we're better than other people and
S2: so on. I think, let's be honest about who we
S2: are and to be honest about who we are. It's
S2: pretty glorious thing, uh, in the broad span of human history.
S3: Yes. Doctor Bill McClay with us is peace, memory and
S3: America's birthday over at American Heritage. Are you concerned, as
S3: we talk about the shared memories of the past, that
S3: it's becoming more difficult for us as a country to
S3: create new shared memories that we were not doing the
S3: same things anymore. We're not watching the same things. We
S3: don't see the same movies. We don't have the same experiences.
S3: In many ways over the past ten years, 15 years.
S3: Does that worry you in terms of making new institutional
S3: type memories for our country?
S2: Well, that's a really great point, Scott. And I have
S2: to confess to you that I haven't been worrying about
S2: it up until now. And now I'm worried. No, you're
S2: absolutely right. I haven't thought a lot because I'm always
S2: looking backwards. Being a historian, I haven't thought a lot
S2: about this, that. And when we do try to um
S2: it it's often half the country says nyet to, uh,
S2: you know, that's just the, the president I hate whether
S2: it's Barack Obama or Donald Trump. Um, you know, I'm
S2: not speaking for myself there. I'm just saying that whatever
S2: half it is. So it's going to be people who
S2: are simply rejected out of hand because of the political
S2: party or that the. The leader in question is is
S2: not to their liking. To put it mildly, in some cases. Uh,
S2: so I do think I think that's a real challenge.
S2: I have served I'm continuing to serve on the US
S2: Commission on the Semiquincentennial, which thankfully everybody's now calling America 250.
S2: Easier to say. It is easier to say. And actually
S2: Semiquincentennial is kind of a stupid term because it's sort
S2: of half, you know, the half of 500. That's not
S2: exactly a very elegant way to do things. And we've
S2: had a real problem with that because, um, uh, we've
S2: been divided, you know, uh, we're appointed, you know, half
S2: by Republican leaders. I was appointed by Paul Ryan, uh,
S2: remember him? And, uh, and others were appointed by Nancy
S2: Pelosi or Harry Reid. And we've gotten, uh, not a
S2: great deal accomplished, I think I can say publicly. Um,
S2: because of these conflicts over, uh, what, what people want
S2: to memorialize. Because that's really what we're talking about. Um, um,
S2: President Trump wants to have a garden of American heroes. Uh,
S2: a lot of people are just viscerally opposed to that,
S2: to the whole idea of heroes commemorating heroes or the
S2: wrong kind of heroes. So it's very difficult.
S3: Doctor McClay, how would you compare these discussions you're having
S3: now around America? 250 with what we experienced around America
S3: 200 in 1976.
S2: There was a lot of the same kind of conflict,
S2: not quite as intense as now, but it was hard
S2: to come up with things that people would unify. There
S2: was a People's Bicentennial, which was the sort of early
S2: form of 16, 19, uh, oppositional ism. And although they
S2: did a lot of good things, actually. I give them credit,
S2: much less credit than I give to the current opposition.
S2: You know what really brought the nation together? And you're
S2: not old enough, Scott, I don't think to have actually
S2: experienced this, but there was a something that a promoter
S2: in New York dreamed up of having the tall ships,
S2: that is, these wooden sailing ships, magnificent sailing ships, three
S2: masted or more ships sail into parade into New York Harbor.
S3: Mhm.
S2: And, uh, it was, it was massively, uh, unifying it
S2: partly because it didn't it didn't dredge up the issues
S2: of Vietnam or race relations or whatever was on the
S2: stove at the time. It was, and it wasn't even
S2: all American history because there were there were French and
S2: Spanish and there were there was a beautiful ship from Uruguay. Uh,
S2: in this procession of ships where they captivated the country,
S2: 8 million people watched it, uh, along the shoreline of
S2: New York Harbor. The whole nation watched it on television.
S2: It was it dominated an entire issue of life magazine,
S2: which was a, uh, well, there's nothing to compare it to.
S2: Which is your point, Scott. There's nothing to compare it to.
S2: My life magazine. Everyone in the nation read life magazine,
S2: but that was. I kept trying to think of an
S2: event comparable to the. To that I never was come up.
S2: I thought something to do with railroads might. Everybody loves railroads,
S2: and America is all about railroads, at least in the
S2: first certain phase of our history. But you're right. It's
S2: very difficult to, uh, even space, you know, we're back
S2: in the space, and an awful lot of the country
S2: could say, who cares? Or worse. And, you know, and
S2: they don't like Elon Musk, so they don't like space.
S2: I mean, it's it's it is what it is. I'm
S2: not going to criticize anybody but shared memories without them.
S2: You don't have a coherent entity, just as you don't
S2: have a coherent family when it's shattered by divorce or
S2: even death. You know, even something that is non-judgmental is
S2: the fact that one part I had this happen to
S2: my father died prematurely, and it was very difficult to reconstruct.
S2: And I'm not sure we ever completely did the family
S2: sort of memory bank.
S3: Doctor Bill McClay from Hillsdale College with us, Doctor McClay.
S3: Are there examples from our history that should give us
S3: some hope of closing whatever hostile political divide in America
S3: that we have today?
S2: Look at where we've come through. Look at the Civil
S2: War and even the revolution as Ken Burns and others
S2: are bringing out. The revolution had a Civil war aspect
S2: to it. Um, of course, a lot of the others
S2: loyalists went to Canada, but um, but, but there were
S2: some that stayed and we somehow weathered that. But the
S2: Civil War, it's astonishing that we were able to reunite
S2: after that. I if you stand back and look at it,
S2: if you look at comparable situations in Europe where you know,
S2: you have a constant bickering over national lines and irredentist movements,
S2: and we haven't had anything like that. Of course, there
S2: are people in the South who just never quite reconciled, um, uh,
S2: them to themselves to the defeat of the South. Um, or, uh,
S2: you know, and there are northerners who still think everything
S2: wrong with the country is because of bloody South is
S2: still there. And if we could get rid of them,
S2: we would be so much better off. We do have
S2: people like that, but by and large, we've reunited. And
S2: this is partly due to the genius of Lincoln. But
S2: although he wasn't around for the really hard, heavy lifting,
S2: we had a really a mostly failed effort at reconstruction.
S2: It did accomplish some important things with the three constitutional
S2: amendments that were passed and a few other things. But
S2: and yet, and we've had to go through a whole
S2: period of Jim Crow and and the civil rights movement
S2: to kindly finally bring African Americans into political life. Um,
S2: it's been a struggle, but we've done it. We've done it. And, uh,
S2: it's look, even Germany is having, we don't get it
S2: doesn't get a lot of press in this country. But
S2: culturally speaking, West and East Germany are still very far apart. Um, uh,
S2: so I think the success of our passing through and
S2: the Civil War is not just a, you know, sort
S2: of dark memory that we try not to think about.
S2: People love to study the Civil War, to go to
S2: the battlefield. And in Southerners and northerners alike. It's part
S2: of our heritage that we embrace in all of its
S2: tragic bloodiness. It's amazing. Um, so I and it's one
S2: of the rich veins of our, our, of our shared memory. Yeah. Um, uh,
S2: you know, you may call it Sharpsburg and I call
S2: it Antietam, but we still remember the same thing.
S3: That's right.
S2: Hey, can I make a pitch for one other book?
S2: I also just published recently, or I co-edited with another
S2: man a book called The Jewish Roots of American Liberty.
S2: And I really commend it to you. It's mainly written
S2: by people other than me, but I did edit it. Yeah.
S3: And you talked about it on this show. So people
S3: can go back in the archives and hear a great
S3: conversation about that book. Doctor Bill McClay is Victor Davis
S3: Hanson chair in Classical History and Western Civilization here at
S3: Hillsdale College, author of The Wonderful Land of Hope and
S3: this recent essay at American Heritage Memory and America's Birthday.
S3: Doctor McClay, thanks so much for joining us.
S2: Absolutely.
S3: That will wrap up this edition of the Radio Free
S3: Hillsdale Hour. Our thanks to Doctor Khalil Habib and Doctor
S3: Bill McClay for joining us on this special America 250
S3: edition of the program. Remember, you can hear new episodes
S3: every week on this station. You also can find extended
S3: versions of some of our interviews, or listen any time
S3: to the podcast. Find it@podcasts.hillsdale.edu or wherever you get your audio.
S3: Until next week, I'm Scott Bertram, and this has been
S3: the radio free Hillsdale Hour.