S1: From the historic campus of Hillsdale College in Hillsdale, Michigan,
S1: where the good, the true and the beautiful are taught,
S1: nurtured and honored. This is the radio free Hillsdale Hour,
S1: bringing the activity and education of the college to listeners
S1: across the country.
S2: I don't think you can fail to be inspired. And
S2: that's why I said, like, we need a book that
S2: tells the whole story, you know, because there's all kinds
S2: of books, but like a one book that tells everything
S2: in it so you can get it in the 250th year.
S2: You can get the story and know the story and
S2: live the story.
S3: This is your host, Scott Bertram. Welcome to the Radio
S3: Free Hillsdale, our part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network.
S3: That was Eric Metaxas, author of the new book Revolution
S3: The Birth of the Greatest Nation in the History of
S3: the world. We go in depth with Eric on that
S3: book in just a few moments later on, on today's
S3: program Batya Ungar Sargon. She is the host of Bochecha
S3: on News Nation, and her new book is The Jews
S3: and the left. We'll talk with her later on in
S3: today's program. First, pleased to be joined now by Eric Metaxas,
S3: the author of seven New York Times best sellers. You
S3: can find more at his website. And he's here today
S3: to talk about the brand new book, Revolution The Birth
S3: of the Greatest Nation in the History of the world. Eric,
S3: thanks so much for being with us.
S2: Good to be here. And I want to be clear
S2: from the title, I'm not talking about Belgium or Holland.
S2: I just want to be clear up front.
S3: That's good. Our listeners need to make sure they know
S3: what we're getting into here today. It's a it's a
S3: wonderful read that that tells our story, the nation story,
S3: the story of revolution. So crystal clear, I loved it.
S3: You say early on, citizens who formed this nation must
S3: be aware of the events of its conception and the
S3: birth of the United States. Why is it so important
S3: that we know this story even today, 250 years after
S3: it happened.
S2: Well, not just even now, but especially now. Now more
S2: than ever, we are. I mean, there is nothing like
S2: the United States of America. There's no hyperbole in that. Again,
S2: this doesn't mean that we're better. The people are better.
S2: There's there's simply nothing like a nation which looks to God.
S2: You know, all the founders understood this and thereby is
S2: able to govern itself. We're able to govern ourselves. We
S2: don't need a king like the other nations. I mean,
S2: you have to go back to the Sinai Covenant to
S2: to the Israelites leaving Egypt and saying, you know, we're
S2: going to look directly to God and therefore we can
S2: govern ourselves. It's a wild idea in history. It's unprecedented
S2: until you come to America. And in the 1770s, you
S2: have a group of men who sense that, um, we're,
S2: they're not going to put up with the tyranny that
S2: they feel they're trying to be civil about it, but
S2: they're not going to put up with it. They feel
S2: compelled not to put up with it, I should say.
S2: They can feel for religious reasons and reasons of deep principle.
S2: And so what happens is simply unprecedented to say that
S2: we are going to be independent of Great Britain, that
S2: we are going to be dependent on, you know, another sovereign.
S2: That story is just so wild. I mean, the fact
S2: that we we came into being in 1776 never should
S2: have happened. So the story of it, now more than ever,
S2: we need to understand how it happened and understand that
S2: there really has never been a nation like this. And
S2: I think that, you know, we would love it if
S2: others around the world would look to us and say, like,
S2: what do you have? How do you do that? Because
S2: we would like that here. But we need to appreciate that,
S2: you know, in a, in a way that we simply
S2: can't appreciate it unless you know our story.
S3: Something I've tried to do as we approach America. 250 Eric,
S3: is to do as best I can to place myself
S3: in these founders shoes, these people who worked for the revolution.
S3: And as you point out, and we'll talk about in
S3: a bit, the revolution before the revolution, things that happened
S3: in the 1760s. Something I come back to is where
S3: do these people get this big idea? How do they
S3: get the idea about a revolution that they probably don't
S3: see in their near future? But where do they get
S3: the idea about independence that this is something they want
S3: to work toward?
S2: Well, it's funny because honestly, nobody's thinking about independence. It's
S2: simply not on the table. Why would they want independence?
S2: They just want what's right. And they want their own
S2: liberties to be safeguarded. And they find that the British
S2: are not cooperating and they sort of don't get it.
S2: It's kind of like if you see corruption in your
S2: in company, you go to the boss and you say, hey,
S2: you know, you have this problem, right? Like, and I'm
S2: here to be a whistleblower to help you to, to
S2: understand it or whatever. And the boss kind of looks
S2: around shiftily and says, um, yeah, thank you very much.
S2: And then does nothing. And you'd be like, well, what?
S2: Wait a minute. You, you know, the principles of the
S2: company and everything like that. You clearly you care about this.
S2: The Americans really were trying to get the British to
S2: see what they saw and to see that our rights
S2: come from God. You know, John Locke and the British
S2: Constitution and the Magna Carta. And if you look at
S2: all this stuff, you're you're on board with us, right? Well,
S2: some of them were. William Pitt was, Edmund Burke was.
S2: But King George the Third and most of Parliament was not.
S2: They thought, listen, you're kind of fussy, naive. We have
S2: the power. We're the mother country. You need to shut
S2: up and pay the taxes and do as you're told.
S2: You're our colony. And that's where it got the backup
S2: of all of these principled men, most of them men
S2: of tremendous faith, tremendous faith. And they would die for
S2: their faith and they'd die for their principles. And they
S2: really were absolutely baffled that they thought, well, we're not
S2: going to back down. We must keep going. And so
S2: at some point in this process, and again, if you
S2: read the book, I take you through, it's a process
S2: that more and more the British, it's almost like Pharaoh's
S2: heart gets hardened. It's like you can't understand why is
S2: is Parliament and King George refusing to see this? And
S2: they kind of doubled down and then they send troops
S2: and ultimately the Americans, really not happily. They just don't
S2: see any other way. They say, if we're going to,
S2: we're going to stand up for our principles no matter what.
S2: If this leads to independence, we don't even know what
S2: that is. But we we're not going to put up
S2: with this. And so you really don't see that. Just
S2: a few figures. Samuel Adams and his second cousin, the
S2: great John Adams. The two of them are just amazing
S2: figures in the story. Amazing, truly amazing men. They got
S2: that pretty early on. Benjamin Franklin gets it pretty early
S2: on when he's humiliated. One of my favorite chapters, one
S2: of my favorite stories in the book is about Benjamin Franklin,
S2: who is in England trying to hold things together in
S2: the 1770s. He's trying to be part of the reconciliation.
S2: He realizes the depth of corruption in Parliament and around
S2: the king is such that it's hopeless. I mean, he
S2: was hoping more than anybody, longer than anybody. But at
S2: some point, he realizes in 1774, roughly, it is over.
S2: It is over. We don't want anything to do with
S2: this corrupt country. What have they become? We don't want that.
S2: So it really is a wild idea. But nobody was
S2: thinking about independence, including into 1776. Most of the members
S2: of Parliament are not thinking about independence. It's not until
S2: another one of my favorite parts of the book, Thomas
S2: Paine writes his outrageous, amazing pamphlet, Common Sense, that in
S2: January of 1776, it's like everybody wakes up from from
S2: a trance and they think, oh my goodness, we've just
S2: been stumbling along like monarchy is normal. It's not normal.
S2: Why do we need a king? Why do we? That's
S2: what really changes everything in the right. In the first
S2: month of 1776, everybody in the country is talking about
S2: this pamphlet by, by, by Thomas Paine. So there's just
S2: a lot of amazing, happy, crazy, beautiful stories in here,
S2: which leads, of course, to May and then June, where
S2: Congress begins moving that direction. And the mastermind of it
S2: all is John Adams. He's he's the mastermind of independence.
S3: When I ask about Adams, because I think it might
S3: be the very first story, as you begin in this
S3: revolution before Revolution, about James Otis and this trial in 1761.
S3: And Adams is watching and listening. And then there's a
S3: whole chapter about John Adams being this prophetic person. So
S3: is he truly the engine of of this effort, John Adams?
S2: I think so. I think so. I think that the
S2: two indispensable figures are George Washington and John Adams. I
S2: don't think anybody can compare. There are there are many,
S2: many great, great figures Joseph Warren, John Hancock, Paul Revere.
S2: You can go down the line, Samuel Adams. There are
S2: these figures that are just extraordinary. And we need to
S2: know their names. Henry Knox, Nathan Hale. These are amazing heroes.
S2: But John Adams, I mean, John Adams should be a
S2: thousand times more famous than Thomas Jefferson. It's kind of
S2: a bizarre thing in history that we act like Jefferson was.
S2: I mean, Jefferson effectively came up with some beautiful phrases.
S2: And you don't want to you don't want to denigrate
S2: his efforts, but my goodness, no comparison to to John
S2: Adams and I, I tell John Adams a story in
S2: the book. People can make of it what they will,
S2: but I think he is an unrecognized giant in this story.
S2: And they're finally making a, a a washing, sorry, an
S2: Adams memorial in DC to the Adams family. It's to
S2: him and Abigail and John Quincy and you know, but
S2: John Adams is a giant. And I didn't know that
S2: until I did the research. I did a lot of research.
S2: And it's just when it when it hit me was
S2: when I was reading this essay that he wrote in 1765,
S2: I thought, this guy is 30 years old and he's
S2: writing this essay that's like ten, 11 years before the
S2: Declaration of Independence. And he's laying out everything in a
S2: way that I never knew that Adams was this kind
S2: of a giant. And he's the man who, 11 years later,
S2: he's the mastermind making independence happen in 1776. Everybody's against it.
S2: You know, John Dickinson, uh, in in Pennsylvania, they're just
S2: we don't need to go there. We just want this.
S2: We don't need that. John Adams seems to see this
S2: earlier than anybody.
S3: Eric Metaxas with his new book, Revolution The Birth of
S3: the Greatest Nation in the History of the world. I
S3: love this line. You say someone would. Someone would write
S3: a play. How England Lost the Colonies A tragedy in
S3: Three acts, the Sugar Act, Stamp Act, Declaratory Act. How
S3: do we get closer to independence? Or how does that
S3: begin to push us further away from Britain? Those those
S3: three those three acts?
S2: Well, yeah, that's me kind of cracking a joke in
S2: the book. There are jokes in the book, I think,
S2: you know, there's some of it's funny, but honestly, you
S2: see England, basically, they cannot accept the idea that they
S2: need to do the right thing. And the right thing
S2: is not necessarily going to give them the income that
S2: they're hoping from the colonies, but they refuse. And so
S2: they try again and again. I mean, the Sugar Act
S2: and the Stamp Act, the Stamp Act, that's another favorite
S2: part of the book. I mean, the riots, the Stamp
S2: Act riots, where the where the members, I mean, the,
S2: the Bostonians in particular, they're like, we're not going to
S2: have this. This is where there's no way we're going
S2: to just pay this because like, you're putting a gun
S2: to our head like you're thugs. You are not in
S2: the right. And so it's a huge moment. And then
S2: suddenly England backs off because they realize, oh, well, we
S2: can't get our way, so we'll just back off. But
S2: they reserve the right to do it anyway. They do
S2: this thing, the Declaratory Act, which is just a cynical,
S2: cynical law that they pass because it's a very it's
S2: very corrupt, frankly. And so then they come back with
S2: the Townshend acts, and that eventually leads to, you know,
S2: all kinds of pushback from the colonies. And the colonies
S2: begin to unite, and then they send troops. And I mean,
S2: it's just it goes from thing to thing to thing.
S2: Like they make they made this happen. I mean, the
S2: King George's government lost the colonies. They did not need
S2: to lose the colonies. But, you know, I think it's providential.
S2: And I'm I'm glad that it worked out that way.
S2: But they didn't need to they could have had they
S2: could have kept the colonies, for sure.
S3: We're talking with Eric Metaxas. His brand new book is Revolution.
S3: It's available right now as we approach America. 250. We'll
S3: return with Eric in just a moment. First, I ask
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S3: episode and make sure you're fully up to date on
S3: everything happening at the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. We continue
S3: now with Eric Metaxas. His brand new book is Revolution
S3: The Birth of the greatest nation in the history of
S3: the world. Eric, at some point, the first Continental Congress meets.
S3: And you describe this Christian atmosphere and one that they
S3: believe their fate is in God's hands. But but you
S3: also point that I think Adams especially kind of looks
S3: around and says, wow, we're really different. There's some tremendous
S3: cultural division that's discovered at the first Continental Continental Congress.
S3: At some point, are they actually further away when they
S3: realize that we're really different around here?
S2: I think, um, it really is. It's a remarkable moment
S2: because the colonies never needed to be united. They were
S2: always just, you know, I mean, imagine you're in Georgia
S2: or South Carolina. What do you have to do with Boston?
S2: It's that that's a Puritan northern, uh, completely different culture. Um,
S2: but because they all felt threatened, they gathered to kind
S2: of say, well, what can we do? And I think the.
S2: The difference is in the cultures of all these colonies
S2: is astonishing. But at the heart of it, and this is,
S2: you know, the difference with, let's say, the European Union,
S2: when the Finns get together with the Greeks and the Italians.
S2: And it's those are deeper cultural divides, our cultural divides.
S2: We were able to unite around common principles that were
S2: dearly held principles, at least by enough of the leaders.
S2: And so what happens suddenly is they begin to feel
S2: this idea of like, there is a unity here, there's
S2: a union here. If we band together, we can succeed
S2: because they thought Great Britain is going to pick them
S2: off one at a time. It's going to crush Boston,
S2: then it's going to move on and crush New York.
S2: It's going to do whatever it wants. They thought, we
S2: can't let that happen. We don't want to be slaves.
S2: We don't want to be. We don't want to lose
S2: our liberty as as free men. They took this so seriously.
S2: It's so beautiful, their their innocence in this. And so
S2: I really was, um, you know, you can't help but
S2: be moved by these stories and to watch it piece
S2: by piece. You know, to see George, I mean, to
S2: see John Adams's observations looking around at these figures that
S2: he's never met before. He's going to make history with
S2: all of these men, but he's just meeting them in 1774.
S2: And he writes funny stuff in his journal, which I
S2: put in the book. Just anything funny I can't resist
S2: because it's so entertaining. But I really, uh, you know,
S2: that is a moment. And in fact, I was just
S2: in Carpenters Hall, the very site where this happened. I'm
S2: filming Socrates in the city interviews on the revolution. We're
S2: going to put out 13 interviews, sort of more in
S2: depth on the revolution. And to be in that place
S2: where this happened, it's, uh, it's powerful. It's powerful. This
S2: is this is, you know, it's all ultimately very moving.
S3: We jump around a bit in Revolution by Eric Metaxas,
S3: the new book, um, George Washington, you when he is
S3: described in your book and some other places, it almost
S3: seems like a mythical figure. He is taller than everyone else.
S3: He is stronger than everyone else. And yet when he.
S3: When he takes over, when he becomes commander in chief,
S3: he inherits, uh, problems. Many problems. What does. What does
S3: Washington see when he begins his role as commander in chief?
S2: Well, this gets to the cultural issue, right? Washington is
S2: a a wealthy Virginia planter. Uh, he has been in the,
S2: you know, British Army. I mean, he he was fighting
S2: in the French and Indian War. He now comes up
S2: to Boston and he sees a motley ragtag of New
S2: Englanders who are they have very much more egalitarian ideas
S2: than the Virginia planter stock. And he's looking around at
S2: this ragtag mess. I mean, it's a motley mess. There's
S2: no discipline. And there is a level of freedom in
S2: the negative sense. They kind of do what they want.
S2: They don't have discipline. They're not, you know. So he's thinking,
S2: how in the world am I? I've been charged with
S2: leading these men. How in the world am I going
S2: to do this? And he. You know, there's a scene
S2: in there. Um, which to me, some of this is
S2: just comedy, right? Like you have him, this giant of
S2: a man and he is dealing with this chaos. And
S2: at one point it's in Cambridge where all of the
S2: soldiers are camped out in Cambridge, and they're just, you know,
S2: hanging out while the British are trapped in Boston and
S2: they're marking time, really, it's a stalemate. But this snowball
S2: fight breaks out and it gets into it's like a
S2: brawl between the different factions. I mean, you've got guys,
S2: you know, Virginia Backwoodsmen up there, and then you've got, uh,
S2: mariners from the North Shore of Boston. And these are
S2: completely different cultures. And so of course, it's like gangs
S2: in a prison. You know, they start fighting and brawling
S2: and Washington rides in and it's like they all phrase again.
S2: This is like a comic moment in the book. It's
S2: like they all freeze like daddy's home. And he caught us,
S2: you know, playing with matches. It is an unbelievable thing
S2: that Washington rides in. He grabs two of these big
S2: guys and he's like incredibly strong. And he just grabs
S2: two of these brawlers and, like, shakes them, you know,
S2: like children. You were not making this up. This is
S2: all firsthand accounts. I've got a lot of firsthand accounts
S2: in the book because I think, again, that's funny and
S2: entertaining to hear a firsthand account of what actually happened.
S2: So it it is Washington is he really is like a,
S2: you know, like a like a living demigod in some ways.
S2: I mean, people look at him in awe. You hear
S2: this over and over again that there was something about him.
S2: It's kind of like Saul, you know, in the Old
S2: Testament that, you know, he really looks like a king.
S2: I'll tell you, he looks like a king. But Washington
S2: didn't want to be a king. That's the difference between
S2: him and Saul.
S3: Eric Metaxas with us. His book, Revolution The Birth of
S3: the Greatest Nation in the History of the world. Um,
S3: not everyone, I guess, looked at Washington that way. I
S3: love this story. Uh, Washington accidentally intercepts this letter between
S3: Charles Lee, who already is undermining him any way he can,
S3: and his his close aide, Joseph Reed, where they're just
S3: basically talking bad about it. I was going to use
S3: a phrase I shouldn't use on the air.
S2: This is this is what you have to understand is
S2: that and this is again, why the whole story is
S2: ultimately a moral story, a spiritual story. Washington was not
S2: the greatest military leader. The greatest military leaders would have
S2: been Charles Lee or Horatio Gates, at least on paper.
S2: Why did Congress choose Washington? Or I would say, why
S2: did history choose Washington? Why did God choose Washington? Washington
S2: is a man of impeccable character. I mean, it is astonishing.
S2: Anybody who reads the book, you realize This is an
S2: amazing human being. His character is just astonishing. And of course,
S2: the two men, Charles Lee and Horatio Gates, they're gunning
S2: for his job. They're thinking we're better than he is.
S2: And how come we didn't get the top job? We're
S2: going to get it. Eventually, of course, Congress will see
S2: the light. And so they're sniping behind his back. They're
S2: exchanging letters, kind of, you know, trash talking like Washington
S2: made a mistake. And it's only a matter of time
S2: before he's kicked out. And that, to me, is one
S2: of the grand stories within the larger story is the
S2: story of his character and their lack of character, because
S2: Horatio Gates and Charles Lee do not come out looking good.
S2: And part of my favorite part of the story toward
S2: the end, which I almost couldn't believe, is when you
S2: see that both of these guys, Horatio Gates and Charles Lee,
S2: who've been kind of double dealing behind his behind Washington's back,
S2: both of them dramatically get their comeuppance. And you'd think, like,
S2: if it was in a movie, you'd be like, it's
S2: too obvious that they get their comeuppance. They both are
S2: humiliated totally separately, you know, a part a few years apart.
S2: But both of these men who thought of themselves as
S2: I should be the top guy, I should get the
S2: top job, end up humiliating themselves on the battlefield and
S2: because of their pride, because of their lack of character,
S2: humiliating themselves further and losing their reputations further because they
S2: didn't have the dignity and the humility, frankly, that George
S2: Washington did. So it's an amazing character study. I was not,
S2: you know, planning to write about that when I was
S2: writing this book. I didn't know a lot of this stuff, honestly. Yeah.
S2: And it was just amazing to see that Charles Lee,
S2: not only, you know, is not a good actor, but
S2: he actually commits treason, which hasn't really been known until
S2: very recently. My book may be the first big book
S2: where I talk about that. The first story, The Revolution,
S2: where I actually say he committed treason and we haven't
S2: really known it. We got the first hint about 100
S2: years ago. Some documents came up, but only recently a
S2: book came out that really lays it out. So there's
S2: a lot here. Yeah.
S3: Eric Metaxas with us, his book, Revolution. If we go
S3: back a little bit, we already mentioned common sense and
S3: how it supercharged the this movement in early 1776. But
S3: you also say about Patrick Henry's speech that give me
S3: liberty speech that no speech history has recorded ever had
S3: quite such an effect. You say the room fell silent
S3: for minutes after he finished this speech, to compare and
S3: contrast a little bit the differences between those two.
S2: Well, I actually yes, I go out on a limb
S2: and I say that I don't think there's an example
S2: in the history of the world better than the publication
S2: of Common Sense. To illustrate, the pen is mightier than
S2: the sword. I don't think anything written has ever had
S2: such an effect as that 47 page pamphlet. It's just
S2: outrageous that it really changes history. And it's written by
S2: this guy who has been a failure at everything in life,
S2: but God kind of gave him the talent and the
S2: moment in history to write this extraordinary pamphlet. It's so
S2: compelling and so but I mean, it changes. It just
S2: changes history. I don't think there's anything like it in
S2: written form that had that power in the way that
S2: that did in that moment in history. And the same
S2: thing about Patrick Henry's speech. I mean, Patrick Henry was
S2: known to be an amazing orator, to move the hearts
S2: of juries. I mean, he was a, you know, a
S2: lawyer and he had the ability to do that. But
S2: when he gives his speech, give me liberty or give
S2: me death, anybody who was there basically says, there's never
S2: been anything like it. I mean, it's one thing to say, oh,
S2: that's a great speech. You know, Doctor King gave a
S2: great speech, you know, at the Lincoln Memorial. And Lincoln
S2: gave a great speech at Gettysburg. But in terms of
S2: a speech that in the moment moves people to action,
S2: there's probably never been anything like it. Uh, it just
S2: galvanizes those who heard it in a way that it
S2: changes everything. And And this is like a month, you know,
S2: before Lexington and Concord. And, uh, yeah, there's, there's one
S2: guy who, and of course, I write this in the book,
S2: but there's a guy who people are crowding to hear
S2: the speech in this church and people couldn't get in.
S2: So people are outside the windows listening, and there's a
S2: guy standing outside the window of the church listening to
S2: the speech. At the end of the speech, everybody is silent.
S2: They're like stunned into long silence. And this guy says
S2: to the person next to him eventually says, I want
S2: to be buried on this spot where I heard the speech,
S2: I want to be buried right here. I. This is otherworldly.
S2: I want this is where I want to be buried. And,
S2: you know, a few decades later, he got his wish
S2: and he was buried on that spot. I mean, this is, um. Yeah,
S2: there's a lot of there's just a lot of amazing
S2: history here. And in writing the book, my, my, my
S2: goal was just like every American needs to know this stuff.
S2: Like where it's going to be on the test. We're
S2: responsible for this information. And I think that, you know,
S2: we we will it will be inspiring to people. I
S2: don't think you can fail to be inspired. And that's
S2: why I said like, we need a book that tells
S2: the whole story, you know, because there's all kinds of books,
S2: but like a one book that tells everything in it
S2: so you can get it in the 250th year. You
S2: can get the story and know the story and live
S2: the story. So I am, you know, very, very excited,
S2: very excited. This is this is an important moment in
S2: our history. We actually need to know this. This is
S2: not extra credit.
S3: Eric Metaxas is the author of Revolution The Birth of
S3: the Greatest Nation in the History of the world. And yes,
S3: that is the United States. It's available now. You can
S3: find more also at Eric metaxas.com. Eric, thanks so much
S3: for joining us.
S2: My privilege. Thank you.
S3: Up next, Batya Ungar, Sargon. She is the host of
S3: Bochecha on News Nation. Her brand new book is called
S3: The Jews and the left. We'll talk with her about
S3: that next. I'm Scott Bertram. This is the radio free
S3: Hillsdale Hour. Welcome back to the radio free Hillsdale Hour.
S3: I'm Scott Bertram. Be sure to check out more Hillsdale
S3: College audio at Hillsdale College Podcast Network. Find episodes of
S3: this program, plus Valerian show in Primus and Hillsdale College
S3: online courses, podcast, podcasts.hillsdale.edu, or wherever you get your audio.
S3: We're joined now by Bacha Ungar. Sargon. She's a weekend
S3: anchor and host of Bacha on News Nation. A frequent
S3: contributor to The New York Post, a columnist for the
S3: Free Press as well, and the author of the new book,
S3: The Jews and the Left. Bacha, thank you so much
S3: for joining us.
S4: Thank you so much for having me.
S3: It's always a pleasure to talk to you. Another interesting
S3: and informative new book, The Jews and the left. You
S3: say early in this book, the stark reality is that
S3: America in America is that most Jews are Democrats, yet
S3: the left has turned on the Jews, and the book
S3: tries to answer the why of both parts of that equation.
S3: But I want to start with something else, which is
S3: this explanation that you have early. That instead of religious fervor,
S3: that American Jews are deeply connected to the idea of
S3: Jewish peoplehood, how and should that affect the way that we.
S3: We understand this question.
S4: Um, wow. What a beautiful question. Yeah, I have that
S4: in there because, um, I think it's hard sometimes for
S4: Christians to understand this about Jews that most, most Jews
S4: when they moved here. And this continues to be the case.
S4: They saw in America this idea of freedom, which for
S4: many Jews who had been orthodox in the old country,
S4: orthodoxy is a heavy lift. It's like a religion of laws,
S4: which I could tell you as an Orthodox woman. You know,
S4: it's it's constant. And a lot of Jews saw the
S4: freedom of America as a freedom from that, those religious constrictions.
S4: But that didn't mean that they stopped identifying as Jews,
S4: even though they stopped observing the law. And that is
S4: because to them, being Jewish was something more complex than
S4: just a faith. It had to do with an ethnicity,
S4: a shared history, a shared culture. Um, the values that
S4: were in the Bible that the founding Fathers actually relied
S4: on when writing our rights and freedoms and the idea
S4: that they were imbued in us by God. Um, so, but,
S4: but it's, it's more complicated than just a religion. And
S4: this is so crucial to this conversation because you have
S4: a lot of people on the left saying, well, we're
S4: not against Jews, we're just against Israel. We're not anti-Semitic,
S4: we're just anti-Zionist. The problem is, is for the vast
S4: majority of Jews, a connection to other Jews is basically
S4: their religion. That is their faith. And that means that
S4: they are very pro-jewish and pro-Israel. 85% 90% of Jews
S4: worldwide are Zionists. So when you say there's no room
S4: in our movement for Zionism, but there is room for Jews,
S4: what you're saying is, you know, the 10% who are
S4: the token anti-zionists you will accept, but those are the
S4: ones willing to turn on the 90%. Mhm. And so
S4: I think this is such an important thing to understand,
S4: especially because that conflict that the book is explaining is
S4: really important to American Jewish identity. Most American Jews who
S4: are Democrats about, you know, 66 to 70%, they feel
S4: very much that they are liberals because they are Jewish.
S4: Their version of Judaism is, you know, the values that
S4: they see in their interpretation of the Bible. So their
S4: their democratic values, their liberalism is a very, um, spiritual
S4: issue for many American Jews, but so is their connection
S4: to Israel. And those two things recently have come into
S4: conflict with each other. And so there's a real choice
S4: to be made now for American Jews, I believe.
S3: All right. We're going to come back to that. I
S3: want to dig through some of the past and some
S3: of the history included in the Jews and the left.
S3: In the first part of that question, why are most Jews, Democrats?
S3: It begins with the history of the labor movement, the
S3: Jewish birth of labor, and this horrific description of the
S3: Triangle Shirtwaist fire. And in the aftermath, you certainly can
S3: understand why Jews see the rise of the labor movement
S3: as very much connected to them and and their sacrifice.
S3: But you say that that then gets extended and that
S3: Jews see the New Deal and FDR as a phoenix
S3: rising from the incinerated bodies of these innocent little girls.
S3: So how does this feeling of the labour movement get
S3: extended to FDR and democratic politics of the age?
S4: So Jews really birthed the labor movement at the turn
S4: of the 20th century. There were about a million Jewish
S4: immigrants from Russia fleeing pogroms and anti-Semitism, and they arrived
S4: here dirt poor, and a lot of them ended up
S4: in the needle trades because you didn't need to speak
S4: English in order to work in them, and they would
S4: work these just bruising, you know, 16 hour days hunched
S4: over in poor light, you know, working away, um, creating
S4: ready made clothing. Um, the working conditions were horrible. They
S4: were horribly exploited most of the time by other Jews
S4: who had arrived sometimes just five years earlier and managed
S4: because of the amazing capitalism of America, to amass a
S4: little bit of capital and then to open their own sweatshop.
S4: So there was this cycle, um, to where Jews would come.
S4: They would be proletariats, But they would not stay proletariat.
S4: They would sometimes within five, ten, 15 years they would
S4: already become, you know, their own factory owners and then
S4: be able to send their children to college. So what
S4: that did was it created within the Jewish community a
S4: very intense respect for labor, but also a very healthy
S4: appreciation for capitalism. So you had this funny situation in
S4: the 20s and the 30s where you would have, you know,
S4: like local branches of like the Socialist Party, and it
S4: would be all professional Jews who were like dentists and doctors,
S4: you know, um, and basically, you know, they created the
S4: socialist movement in America, and then they killed it off
S4: because it didn't reflect their values and their situation. What
S4: they saw in the New Deal and FDR was that
S4: combination of the dignity of labor and a healthy respect
S4: for capitalism, those two things going hand in hand. Um,
S4: most of the lawyers who worked on the legislation of
S4: the New Deal were Jews. Frances Perkins, who was FDR's
S4: labor secretary. She was standing outside the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory
S4: when it went up in flames, and 146 young Jewish
S4: and Italian immigrant girls between the ages of 13 and
S4: 19 died. And they died in a horrific, horrific way.
S4: They either burned up inside or they jumped from the
S4: 10th floor to their deaths. And she said in, you know,
S4: 50 years later, she was still talking about these girls
S4: on fire, flinging themselves out of the top of this building.
S4: And she said, that is where the New Deal came from,
S4: these Jewish sacrifices. And she has this beautiful you can
S4: hear the, um, recording of it. She gave this speech
S4: at a university and she says, mea culpa, mea culpa.
S4: We didn't want it, we didn't want it. And how
S4: the whole city came together. And eventually the nation, um,
S4: basically to create labor laws to protect workers.
S3: Boccia, Ungar. Sargon is with us. Her new book, The
S3: Jews and the left. We move forward to to World
S3: War Two. You point out that this war, the entry
S3: of the US into the war, led to a spiritual
S3: embrace of FDR turning democratic politics into a religious imperative.
S3: Is it appropriate to compare that feeling to what we
S3: see from much of the left today, where they, too,
S3: have traded religion for politics? That same that same fervor?
S4: It's a really good question. I don't know that it's
S4: quite fair because FDR really was. He was seen as
S4: having defeated the Nazis. And of course, to Jews, this
S4: was like utterly existential. Um, I will tell you an
S4: interesting story. In my synagogue, I sit next to a
S4: Holocaust survivor. It's an immense privilege. Um, she's in a
S4: she's amazing. Toby Levy and she told me that when
S4: she spent the war in hiding, um, behind a false
S4: wall in a barn, uh, in the Ukraine. She was
S4: rescued by her whole family, was rescued there by their
S4: non-Jewish neighbor. And, um, they they went to a DP
S4: camp after the war. And then they came here and
S4: they moved to New Orleans. And her story about encountering, um,
S4: the South under Jim Crow, having just experienced that basically
S4: as a Jew in Europe is fascinating. And it's in
S4: the book. And another thing she told me that was
S4: in the book that I've never seen reported anywhere else
S4: was when she arrived here. Um, you know, the European
S4: Jews did not think that highly of FDR. He had
S4: not done quite as much as he should have to
S4: rescue Jews. Um, he had a very anti-Semitic State Department,
S4: and they basically put the kibosh on allowing Jews in.
S4: But the Jews in America did not know that. And
S4: they just worshipped the ground. FDR walked on. And Toby
S4: told me once, um, she said, you know, we got
S4: here and we thought this was the man who let
S4: our families burn to death. And they're sitting here telling
S4: us how amazing he is. And at first we tried
S4: to say to them, you know, he's not all that great.
S4: And then she told me. But we quickly learned to
S4: keep those views to ourselves.
S3: Uh, around this time, there's a little side story in
S3: the Jews and the left about Henry Ford and Henry
S3: Ford publishing the Dearborn Independent with these anti-Semitic screeds. And
S3: he's trying to run for office. And you point out
S3: that even in 1921, going full anti-Semitic was political suicide.
S3: As we move to current days, are our Democrats today
S3: about to learn that same lesson or have circumstances changed?
S4: I think they did just learn it in Texas with this, uh,
S4: Maureen Galeano. Mhm. Um, who went full anti-Semite and said
S4: she wants to put American Zionists into internment camps. Um,
S4: she had won her primary by 29%. And the next
S4: nearest guy, Johnny Garcia, got 27%. So they went to
S4: a runoff because of the way Texas works in the primary.
S4: She had not talked about Jews, and she spent the
S4: next three months between the primary and the runoff march
S4: to May, um, talking about how much she hates Jews
S4: and Israel and Zionists and wants to castrate them and
S4: put them in internment camps. And lo and behold, uh,
S4: she just lost her runoff by 30 points. So I
S4: do think that that rule is still hard and fast
S4: and true. You cannot go full anti-Semite in America and
S4: maintain mainstream appeal. I do not think Tucker Carlson will
S4: be at the next RNC. I've been really heartened to
S4: see how the right has marginalized the just anti-Semitic voices
S4: rising on the far right. Um, people who used to
S4: be Maga and now are basically, in my view, leftists.
S4: But even on the left, I think, you know, the
S4: Democratic voters really rejected. There's something, Scott, in the soil
S4: of this great nation that rejects Jew hate and I.
S4: That is what my book is about. It is a
S4: love song to the United States of America.
S3: Speaking of rejecting Jew hate, we moved to the 1960s
S3: with Batya Ungar, Sargon, her book The Jews and the left.
S3: And you say when the Klan came for the Jews,
S3: the South turned on the Klan. These firebombing of synagogues
S3: in the South of the 1960s. How did this play out?
S4: This is one of the most beautiful and under-covered stories
S4: that I discovered while writing my book. On at least
S4: three occasions when the Klan firebombed synagogues in the South
S4: in the 50s and 60s, the white Christians were so
S4: horrified and disgusted that the Klan would come for their
S4: Jewish neighbors, who they held in such high esteem that
S4: they turned on the Klan and started to actually ease
S4: the way for civil rights for their black neighbors because
S4: they wanted to be distanced from the Klan. Their love
S4: of their Jewish neighbors opened them up to accepting civil
S4: rights for blacks. It's just the most incredible and beautiful story.
S4: And it's just amazing because, um, nobody had been, um,
S4: convicted in the South for lynching.
S3: Mhm.
S4: Until the synagogue in Atlanta was firebombed. And then the
S4: murderers of Mickey Schwerner and Andy Goodman and James Chaney
S4: were found guilty for the first time. I mean, it's
S4: just utterly incredible what that tells you about how your
S4: average southern white person who was a segregationist, um, felt
S4: about their Jewish neighbors so protective that it changed the
S4: way they thought about race in general, because they did
S4: not want to be on the same side as the
S4: people who would firebomb a synagogue. I think that chapter
S4: for me, um, was the one that really opened my
S4: eyes and that I really hope will will land because,
S4: you know, it's common to think that, um, in the
S4: Jewish community that it was the northern Jews who did
S4: all the activism and the southern Jews who basically agreed
S4: with the segregationists. And it's just so not true. They
S4: just in the South, the Jews had a much different
S4: view of their neighbors, and they understood what would actually
S4: help them get there, where we all wanted to get
S4: in terms of equality for all Americans. And it's just
S4: so beautiful and subtle. And so much of the reporting
S4: is based on these interviews with reform rabbis in the
S4: South that were embargoed for 25 years so that they
S4: could speak the truth. And they are just so incredible.
S4: The the bravery of these rabbis who wanted not to
S4: create opposition in their white neighbors, but who saw them
S4: through this light of. They will get there. They want
S4: to get there. How can we work with the community
S4: to bring them where they need to be? It was really,
S4: for me, very deep and spiritual, to think about how
S4: you can influence people for the good, um, while respecting
S4: where they're at, even if where they're at is bad.
S4: I don't know, there was something about that whole part
S4: of our history that meant a lot to me.
S3: But if we, if we sort of transition to the
S3: second part of that question you're answering. So we talk
S3: a bit about why the Jews became devoted Democrats and
S3: now why the left turned on them. And this begins
S3: in chapter six with a introduction, discussion about this French historian, Foucault,
S3: and his his ideas behind power dynamics. I think it is,
S3: without perhaps getting too deep, I think it's important to
S3: to lay out these ideas and to how they've influenced
S3: so much of the left over these past few decades.
S3: So who's Foucault? What does he say about power?
S4: So Foucault was a French philosopher who had this view
S4: that there was no such thing as absolute truth. Facts.
S4: Right versus wrong. Uh, true versus false. There was only
S4: the way in which institutions, whether it's the medical institution, um, academia,
S4: whether it's, um, the judicial system, the government, um, they
S4: shape reality based on power. So these institutions have power
S4: and they create what look like categories of true versus
S4: false or right versus wrong. In order to control people.
S4: So what he basically did was he threw out this distinction,
S4: the Judeo-Christian distinction in the Bible, that this country was
S4: founded on, that, you know, there's a difference between right
S4: and wrong, good versus evil, that we should strive to
S4: be good. And he said, no, that whole rubric is
S4: just a way that institutions try to control us and
S4: exert power on us against the powerless. And it is
S4: impossible to overestimate how intense the impact of this worldview
S4: was on the American left. Now, of course, this is
S4: you could see this everywhere. It's been like utterly mainstreamed throughout,
S4: not just the left in academia and activist circles, but
S4: it's utterly mainstream. You cannot watch CNN for ten minutes
S4: without hearing somebody speaking who's been influenced in this way
S4: of thinking, because it suffused the academy. And then we
S4: created an economy in which to have any kind of
S4: influence in America or power, really, even the American dream.
S4: You have to have a college degree. And the longer
S4: you spend in academia and the more degrees you amass,
S4: the richer you get and the more influence you have
S4: in America. That was true for a very long time,
S4: I think, until Trump arrived on the scene, which is
S4: why he's so important, in my view. And so what
S4: you had was basically anyone with any relevance in America, the,
S4: you know, the longer you spent in academia, the more
S4: time you spent exposed to this foucauldian worldview, which had
S4: taken over the humanities and the social sciences. And of course,
S4: in order to get a law degree or medical degree,
S4: you have to go through all of this schooling. The
S4: longer you spent exposed to Foucault, the more successful you
S4: were likely to be. And these ideas, this idea that
S4: there's no right versus wrong, there's only powerful versus powerless
S4: oppressor versus oppressed, and the oppressor is inherently evil, and
S4: the oppressed have no moral responsibilities. And this is key. Um,
S4: that is the reigning worldview of the left today. And
S4: it influences everything. And it explains so much about, for example,
S4: October 7th, you look at October 7th and you say,
S4: how could anybody not be on the side of the Jews.
S4: And the reason is, is because in this woke worldview,
S4: this leftist foucauldian worldview, the Jews have power, and thus
S4: they are like white people. They are inherently evil and
S4: inherently oppressors. And the Palestinians have no power, and thus
S4: they are inherently virtuous and have no moral responsibilities. And
S4: that includes Hamas. This rubric, this, this dichotomy explains everything
S4: that seems utterly incomprehensible about the godlessness on the left today.
S3: So explain a bit more, perhaps because you say, you know,
S3: being an underdog is, is, is the locus of all virtue.
S3: That's where it all comes from. If you're how did
S3: the Jewish people not become the underdog? How did they
S3: how did they lose their place among this group of
S3: minorities or minority groups that were worthy of, the left
S3: seeing them as as oppressed. How did they get kicked out?
S4: Well, this is funny because in this way I almost
S4: agree with the left. Like I don't think we are oppressed.
S4: We were never oppressed here. This country has never oppressed us.
S4: It was easier to be a Jew in America than
S4: it was to be a Catholic or a Mormon for
S4: most of American history. The idea that we were somehow
S4: the equivalent of blacks here is just. It is. It
S4: is to spit in the face of what this incredible
S4: country did for our people after millennia of oppression. And I, I,
S4: I can't tell you, Scott, how much I cannot stand
S4: to hear that. And you have organizations like the ADL
S4: whose entire existence is predicated on the idea that the
S4: left put us on the wrong side of the equation.
S4: You know, like we're oppressed, like you just said, like,
S4: don't take away our oppressed card. You know what I mean?
S4: Like we're on the side. Put put us with the
S4: trans and the blacks. Like, how dare you treat us
S4: like whites. And I say to that, no. First of all,
S4: it's not okay to treat white people this way. And
S4: second of all, we should be proud to stand with
S4: our fellow Americans who always had our backs. You know,
S4: who never treated us as an oppressed minority. And that
S4: history has been lost. So I think for most American Jews,
S4: the reason that they're Democrats is because their vision of
S4: our history here starts in, you know, 1900. But we
S4: got here in 1654, and we were seen by the
S4: founding Fathers as founding partners in the creation of this
S4: great nation. We were seen as the physical embodiment of
S4: the values that they saw in the Bible that led
S4: them to believe that our rights are granted to us
S4: from God, and not from a government or the tolerance
S4: of our neighbors. Like they saw us as the representation
S4: of the civilization they were trying to build here. And
S4: that is just an incredible honor. And it is such
S4: a betrayal that we lost sight of that history. But
S4: the reason that we, you know, lost the the victim status,
S4: I think, is because, you know, everything became racialized. So
S4: you have this foucauldian model that says oppressor, oppressed. And
S4: then in classic American fashion, they impose this racial binary
S4: onto it. Because in America, you know, the racial binary
S4: is like the defining factor of our history of our past.
S4: So they said, all right, well, white people are the
S4: oppressors and are evil and people of color. It was
S4: originally blacks, but they've been superseded by all sorts of other,
S4: you know, minority groups. Now, um, you know, they are
S4: on the side of and because race was the defining
S4: factor and American Jews have always been considered white in
S4: America since George Washington, who insisted that they be treated
S4: as freedmen. Um, we were sort of placed on the
S4: wrong side of that binary and especially when Israel started
S4: to perform. So it was very easy to, you know,
S4: be on the side of Israel when it was the
S4: underdog in the Middle East. But that changed in 1967
S4: when five Arab armies tried to basically do another genocide
S4: in Israel and the Israelis won. And that's really where
S4: American support for Israel started. There's this myth that, you know,
S4: the Americans were there in 1948. They weren't. Israel basically
S4: exists because the Russians threw the Czechs gave them weapons.
S4: We didn't. Um, the American government started to be interested
S4: in Israel during the Cold War, when Israel started to outperform.
S4: And they saw that it could be a useful ally
S4: against the Soviets. I mean, that's the whole story there.
S4: It was Nixon, an unrepentant anti-Semite, who decided to take
S4: the amount of military aid to Israel from 350 million
S4: to 2 billion. And he pulled the number out of
S4: the air because he just wanted something that would send
S4: a message to the Soviets. Um, so, you know, I
S4: think the combination of Israel, um, being very strong militarily,
S4: thank God, and American Jews being very successful, um, there
S4: was just no way that a left that was obsessed
S4: with race and that worshipped weakness was going to allow
S4: Jews to have, you know, an oppressed card for very long. And.
S4: But I think that's good.
S3: Boccia Ungar. Sargon is with us, the Jews. And the
S3: left is her book. Um, in the aftermath of October 7th, 2023.
S3: You write about these protests on college campuses. We all
S3: saw and heard and, uh, the prevalence of them happening
S3: and campuses where there are very few Pell grants, uh,
S3: where the acceptance rate is very low. These elite institutions
S3: and these students are pro not just pro-Palestine, but pro-hamas
S3: because they have found a cause that could erase their privilege,
S3: is the explanation of what we saw on those campuses.
S3: As simple as that?
S4: I think so. I mean, there was this amazing scene
S4: in one of the libraries at Columbia where they occupied
S4: the library, and they arrested a whole bunch of kids there, students.
S4: And one of the students was the daughter of the
S4: actors Maggie Gyllenhaal and Peter Sarsgaard, who, by the way,
S4: if I'm not mistaken, Maggie Gyllenhaal is Jewish. And like,
S4: that is just like, that is the perfect encapsulation of this.
S4: That is like the apotheosis of this phenomenon. Um, it's, it's, uh,
S4: if you have privilege because you are that rich and that,
S4: you know, set up and the, the nepo baby of
S4: famous parents and what have you because of this foucauldian binary,
S4: you have no access to virtue. You have no access
S4: to moral authority except by ceding it to some oppressed group. Um,
S4: they have oppression, envy, and this is how they slake
S4: that thirst is by masquerading as the oppressed, by literally
S4: putting on a keffiyeh.
S3: One more question for Bacha Ungar. Sargon, because you talk
S3: about class often, and I'm curious as we as we
S3: look back, half of this book is about this oppressor,
S3: oppressed dynamic. When we talk about class in America, is
S3: there a way to do it in which it does
S3: not devolve into the sort of the leftist construction of
S3: oppressor and oppressed? The rich are the oppressors. The middle class,
S3: the low class are the oppressed. Can we talk about
S3: class in a way in which our discussions don't devolve
S3: into that construction?
S4: We can, when working class Americans have access to the
S4: American Dream. We can't when they don't. You know, if
S4: things get significantly worse, you're going to hear a lot
S4: more of that class warfare stuff entering the lexicon. Um,
S4: and it's going to be bipartisan, I think. To me,
S4: what Trump represented was the rise of labor in a
S4: way that was uniquely capitalistic. So the, the idea that
S4: you could protect the interests of labor and the fortunes
S4: of the working class, uh, within the free market, the
S4: constraints of a free market, national free market. You know,
S4: he doesn't believe in free trade internationally. And I kind
S4: of agree with him. Um, you know, but but, uh,
S4: you know, if if the economy doesn't turn around soon,
S4: people will stop seeing him as representing that and things
S4: will get worse and the left will have a better
S4: language for speaking about that, even though I don't think
S4: that their model is where most working class people are at. Mhm. Um,
S4: working class people don't want handouts. They want better wages.
S4: And um, if you're offering them better wages, they will
S4: take that. But if they can't put food on the
S4: table and I know families that are currently skipping meals,
S4: um they'll take the handout. So and that is something
S4: that I want the right to understand.
S3: Yeah. You can read a bit more about that in
S3: Bhatia's previous book, Second Class, which is also available now.
S3: The new one, though, is the Jews and the left.
S3: Batya Ungar Sargon is weekend anchor and host of Batya
S3: on News Nation, a contributor to the New York Post
S3: and columnist for The Free Press as well. Thanks so
S3: much for joining us here on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour.
S4: God bless and protect you. Thank you so much for
S4: having me.
S3: That will wrap up this edition of the Radio Free
S3: Hillsdale Hour. Our thanks to Eric Metaxas and Bacha Ungar. Sargon. Remember,
S3: you can hear new episodes every week on this station.
S3: You also can find extended versions of some of our interviews,
S3: or listen any time to the podcast. Find it@podcast.hillsdale.edu or
S3: wherever you get your audio. Until next week, I'm Scott Bertram,
S3: and this has been the radio free Hillsdale Hour.