WEBVTT - Churchill’s The Second World War, Part Twenty-Seven 0:00:04.600 --> 0:00:09.400 Every week. Hillsdale College President Larry Arnn joins Hugh Hewitt 0:00:09.440 --> 0:00:14.120 to discuss great books, great men, and great ideas. This 0:00:14.120 --> 0:00:19.320 is Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. 0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:25.680 More episodes@podcast.hillsdale.edu or wherever you find your audio. 0:00:29.360 --> 0:00:32.560 Morning glory and evening Grace America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. That 0:00:32.560 --> 0:00:35.479 music means we are in the last broadcast hour of 0:00:35.479 --> 0:00:38.000 the week on the Salem News Channel, the Salem Radio Network, 0:00:38.000 --> 0:00:40.919 all of our radio affiliates. And this means the Hillsdale 0:00:40.920 --> 0:00:44.440 Dialogue is upon us. All things Hillsdale. Hillsdale College in 0:00:44.440 --> 0:00:50.040 Michigan can be found@hillsdale.edu, including all their online courses, including 0:00:50.040 --> 0:00:52.800 your opportunity to sign up for Imprimis for free. And 0:00:52.840 --> 0:00:56.840 of course, all of the Hillsdale dialogues with me and 0:00:56.840 --> 0:00:59.860 my guest, doctor Larry Arnn, and his colleagues. They're all 0:00:59.860 --> 0:01:02.540 collected at hue for Hillsdale. They're also on the Hillsdale 0:01:02.540 --> 0:01:08.300 Dialogue Bar when you find it on hillsdale.edu site. Doctor Ryan, 0:01:08.300 --> 0:01:11.660 we are back in Winston Churchill's memoir of World War Two, 0:01:12.060 --> 0:01:16.100 his second book, Their Finest Hour. Chapters six and seven, 0:01:16.140 --> 0:01:19.580 The Rush for Spoils and Back to France. I want 0:01:19.580 --> 0:01:21.540 to begin on a small point that struck me when 0:01:21.540 --> 0:01:23.979 I was reading these two chapters. He went back and 0:01:23.980 --> 0:01:28.700 forth to France in this not so great airplane, sometimes 0:01:28.700 --> 0:01:33.860 surrounded by Spitfires, sometimes alone, uh, four times. And the 0:01:33.860 --> 0:01:38.180 last time to deal with the defeated Patton, a young, 0:01:38.220 --> 0:01:40.860 eager fellow by the name of de Gaulle. But it's 0:01:40.860 --> 0:01:43.339 just his physical courage. It's kind of nuts. We don't 0:01:43.340 --> 0:01:44.820 do this anymore, do we? 0:01:45.620 --> 0:01:50.460 Yeah, well, I don't know. We we don't do it in. 0:01:50.740 --> 0:01:53.540 We do it in greater comfort than he knew. Uh, 0:01:53.580 --> 0:01:57.260 Churchill was an old man, you know, he was 68 0:01:57.300 --> 0:02:01.810 when the war broke out? No. 65 and war broke out, uh, 0:02:01.970 --> 0:02:05.809 when he became prime minister. But he traveled. Uh, Andrew 0:02:05.850 --> 0:02:09.090 Roberts goes through the numbers in his walking with Destiny book, 0:02:09.130 --> 0:02:13.570 a very good biography of Churchill. And he traveled, you know, 0:02:13.850 --> 0:02:19.130 a multiple of the amount that Franklin Roosevelt and Stalin 0:02:19.410 --> 0:02:24.410 traveled combined. And he kept he built the alliance and 0:02:24.410 --> 0:02:26.930 he kept it together. And what he's doing in these 0:02:26.930 --> 0:02:30.090 two chapters in 1940 is France is falling, is he's 0:02:30.090 --> 0:02:32.730 trying to keep it together there. He's going to talk 0:02:32.770 --> 0:02:36.530 to them. And these two chapters are very dramatic because 0:02:37.130 --> 0:02:42.170 it's what collapse looks like. And, you know, it's there's 0:02:42.169 --> 0:02:46.450 one kind of moral trial that comes when you're losing 0:02:47.010 --> 0:02:49.970 to the place of disaster, because how do you keep 0:02:49.970 --> 0:02:53.810 your head up? And how do you keep arguing when 0:02:53.850 --> 0:03:00.350 fact after fact after fact arises against you, and the 0:03:00.389 --> 0:03:04.829 story of Churchill's actions in the months of May and 0:03:04.830 --> 0:03:09.310 June 1940 are just magnificent. But he doesn't tell it 0:03:09.310 --> 0:03:16.870 all because he's not. He doesn't what? He doesn't. He 0:03:16.870 --> 0:03:18.630 doesn't glorify himself. 0:03:19.270 --> 0:03:20.470 He is not a modest. 0:03:20.470 --> 0:03:25.270 Man, but he's also not a vain man. It's a moderate. 0:03:25.310 --> 0:03:28.870 Yeah. I like to say that he's pretty good at 0:03:28.910 --> 0:03:33.070 you know, he's he's very assertive human being. Right. But 0:03:33.070 --> 0:03:36.950 the way he goes about telling the story doesn't leave 0:03:36.950 --> 0:03:40.110 him open to a charge that certain politicians in America 0:03:40.110 --> 0:03:42.790 today are open to, that they talk about themselves all 0:03:42.790 --> 0:03:48.510 the time and, uh, and congratulate themselves over much. And 0:03:48.510 --> 0:03:52.670 he in these chapters, he congratulates himself under much. And 0:03:52.670 --> 0:03:55.030 I will tell you some of the sources we have 0:03:55.070 --> 0:03:57.410 for the things that happened in some of these rooms 0:03:57.410 --> 0:03:59.530 because it's very remarkable. 0:03:59.930 --> 0:04:00.650 Oh, well, let's. 0:04:00.650 --> 0:04:02.970 Do that now before I move to the for example, 0:04:02.970 --> 0:04:05.930 we have this meeting with Patton at which he speaks. 0:04:05.970 --> 0:04:09.050 He spots a young de Gaulle, and he says about 0:04:09.050 --> 0:04:12.210 de Gaulle that, uh, he had a lot of dash 0:04:12.210 --> 0:04:14.450 about him and a lot of resolution. He didn't know 0:04:14.450 --> 0:04:16.330 that he would end up working with de Gaulle. He 0:04:16.330 --> 0:04:19.770 talks about talking to Admiral Darlan and saying to him, 0:04:19.770 --> 0:04:21.810 you must never let the French. You must never let 0:04:21.810 --> 0:04:25.130 the Nazis get the French fleet. And Darlan promised that 0:04:25.130 --> 0:04:28.370 he wouldn't. But what are the sources we have about 0:04:28.370 --> 0:04:30.650 what he does in these days that that he does 0:04:30.650 --> 0:04:31.650 not tell us about. 0:04:32.730 --> 0:04:38.370 Well, the the most beautiful things he did are public speeches, 0:04:38.370 --> 0:04:41.650 which we can simply read. And we have evidence in 0:04:41.650 --> 0:04:44.370 one of the chapters of the effect of these speeches, 0:04:44.370 --> 0:04:47.370 because they persuaded Franklin Roosevelt that Britain was going to 0:04:47.370 --> 0:04:52.890 fight and America sent some help. That's that's from Fulton, Missouri. And, uh, 0:04:53.330 --> 0:04:55.520 I gave a talk from that very podium in that. 0:04:55.600 --> 0:04:56.360 Oh, did you really? 0:04:56.440 --> 0:04:59.440 A few months ago. Yeah. And there's Harry Truman on 0:04:59.640 --> 0:05:04.800 the left. Um, so those are public things, right? And 0:05:04.800 --> 0:05:10.760 those are very important. Uh, they, they persuaded his colleagues 0:05:10.760 --> 0:05:15.520 in the cabinet. They persuaded Franklin Roosevelt. They persuaded the 0:05:15.520 --> 0:05:19.279 British people. And then there are two main private things 0:05:19.279 --> 0:05:22.680 that are relevant to these chapters. One is his May 0:05:22.680 --> 0:05:26.880 the 28th, 1940 meeting with the cabinet, which we have 0:05:26.880 --> 0:05:29.480 notes from two different people about what he said there. 0:05:30.080 --> 0:05:32.800 And we've talked about that on the show. And the 0:05:32.800 --> 0:05:41.560 other is these meetings in France. And, uh, there are two. And, uh, the, uh, translator, 0:05:41.560 --> 0:05:44.359 Churchill spoke some French and most of the French spoke English. 0:05:44.360 --> 0:05:45.760 So a lot of it was in English, but there 0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:48.400 was a man named Edward Louis Spears. I mean, for 0:05:48.440 --> 0:05:50.400 on the show. And he was a very close friend 0:05:50.400 --> 0:05:53.440 of Churchill's, and he grew up in Paris and he 0:05:53.500 --> 0:05:57.779 was the officer as assigned to liaison between the British 0:05:57.820 --> 0:06:02.740 and French armies in 1914 and again in 1939 40. 0:06:03.140 --> 0:06:09.060 So he was there coordinating through this collapse, and he 0:06:09.060 --> 0:06:11.900 was already experienced at it, and he was later ambassador 0:06:11.900 --> 0:06:15.020 to France. He was a member of Parliament, and he 0:06:15.020 --> 0:06:17.900 was a brilliant man. And he wrote two great books. 0:06:17.900 --> 0:06:19.659 One of them, if you're interested in the First World War, 0:06:19.700 --> 0:06:23.500 liaison 1914 and the Second World War is about the 0:06:23.500 --> 0:06:30.940 same events, what, uh, 26 years later called assignment to catastrophe. 0:06:31.860 --> 0:06:36.140 Spears is in the room when these negotiations are going 0:06:36.140 --> 0:06:39.900 on with the French. And, uh, Peyton and I have 0:06:40.940 --> 0:06:45.900 come in their World War One heroes again. Was the 0:06:46.460 --> 0:06:49.859 general in charge of the Battle of Verdun in the 0:06:49.860 --> 0:06:52.770 First World War, one of the worst battles in human history. 0:06:53.370 --> 0:06:55.890 Churchill says in this chapter that Peyton was a defeatist 0:06:55.890 --> 0:06:58.010 in the First World War two. I didn't know that. 0:06:58.570 --> 0:07:03.650 But Churchill is encouraging them at this at the first 0:07:03.650 --> 0:07:08.890 meeting in Paris. They actually meet in Peyton's home, an 0:07:08.890 --> 0:07:16.090 apartment in Paris, and the nightgown of his mistress is on, 0:07:16.810 --> 0:07:19.650 draped across one of the chairs in the room. People 0:07:19.650 --> 0:07:24.530 noticed that. Anyway, Reynaud was a. He was the saltiest 0:07:24.530 --> 0:07:29.490 of the bunch outside de Gaulle. But Peyton and Vegan 0:07:29.490 --> 0:07:33.370 are beaten and they could see that. And then, uh, 0:07:33.810 --> 0:07:37.970 the Churchill relates a conversation where he says Churchill's trying 0:07:37.970 --> 0:07:43.650 to get them to keep resisting form a front, uh, 0:07:43.810 --> 0:07:48.450 fight unit by unit. And he says to come through 0:07:48.450 --> 0:07:52.190 Paris and attack you. The German army is going to 0:07:52.190 --> 0:07:55.310 have to disorganize itself and there'll be an opportunity. You 0:07:55.310 --> 0:08:00.790 can consume a German army corps in the streets of Paris. 0:08:01.870 --> 0:08:06.110 And Payton says, we've already given the order to evacuate Paris. 0:08:06.750 --> 0:08:11.990 And Churchill says nations which die fighting rise up again. 0:08:12.270 --> 0:08:16.910 But those that surrender tamely are gone forever. And that's 0:08:16.910 --> 0:08:17.870 very solemn. 0:08:18.790 --> 0:08:19.830 The town's name. 0:08:19.830 --> 0:08:23.070 Is gone forever because of what he did here. Yeah, 0:08:23.230 --> 0:08:24.270 it will always be. 0:08:24.310 --> 0:08:28.030 That's right. And then, and then and then. Uh, Reno 0:08:28.030 --> 0:08:32.310 replies to that. But you must give us the rest 0:08:32.309 --> 0:08:36.710 of your fighters if we're to fight on. And then 0:08:36.750 --> 0:08:40.070 Spears records. Because he knew Churchill very well. He said, 0:08:40.070 --> 0:08:43.110 I knew the Prime Minister was a generous man, and 0:08:43.110 --> 0:08:47.510 I did not think he would resist that appeal. And 0:08:47.750 --> 0:08:52.090 Churchill recounts the. this part of it in this chapter. 0:08:52.850 --> 0:08:57.890 He says, this is not the decisive battle. They must 0:08:57.890 --> 0:09:03.050 destroy us in our island or we can come and win. 0:09:03.050 --> 0:09:08.729 Win this back. And and Payton says. And so that's, 0:09:08.770 --> 0:09:15.250 you know, that's very tense moment. Right. And Churchill, by 0:09:15.250 --> 0:09:19.770 the way, uh, says in this chapter that by the 0:09:19.770 --> 0:09:22.690 time they were pressing him for the rest of his fighters, 0:09:23.170 --> 0:09:26.250 Payton and Wigan had already decided that they were going 0:09:26.250 --> 0:09:28.929 to surrender. So they were prepared to take the British 0:09:28.929 --> 0:09:34.250 down with them anyway. Then Pat Reno, who was sympathetic, 0:09:35.210 --> 0:09:39.130 says to Churchill, how do you hope to fight them alone? 0:09:39.850 --> 0:09:42.610 And Churchill says, I haven't thought about that very hard yet, 0:09:42.929 --> 0:09:47.730 but I imagine that the strategy will be to drown 0:09:47.730 --> 0:09:49.640 most of them on the way over and choke the 0:09:49.640 --> 0:09:51.240 rest of them to death on the beach. 0:09:52.200 --> 0:09:56.960 But he's also he. He dangles FDR to them. Uh, 0:09:56.960 --> 0:10:01.960 because Churchill always nurses this belief that eventually the new 0:10:01.960 --> 0:10:03.920 world will come to the assistance of the old. He 0:10:03.920 --> 0:10:07.640 will say that in a speech eventually. But in this meeting, 0:10:07.640 --> 0:10:12.800 he also dangles FDR. And FDR is is keeping track. 0:10:12.840 --> 0:10:17.640 He's not he's not not encouraging. He's not giving up 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:21.959 on the English in the way that Patton and the 0:10:21.960 --> 0:10:24.360 other generals have. He has not given up on them. 0:10:24.720 --> 0:10:28.800 And we will come back to that immediately. Don't go anywhere. Uh, 0:10:29.200 --> 0:10:31.520 back with Doctor Larry Arnn after the break as we 0:10:31.559 --> 0:10:35.360 continue diving into their finest hour. Stay tuned to the 0:10:35.360 --> 0:10:40.120 Hugh Hewitt Show, all things hillsdale@hillsdale.edu. Welcome back America. I'm 0:10:40.120 --> 0:10:43.520 Hugh Hewitt. The Hillsdale dialogue underway with Doctor Larry Arnn, 0:10:43.520 --> 0:10:48.300 president of Hillsdale College, all things hillsdale@hillsdale.edu. remember as well 0:10:48.300 --> 0:10:52.060 all prior Hillsdale dialogues, including all of those episodes on 0:10:52.059 --> 0:10:54.980 this book? Their Finest Hour volume two in the Churchill 0:10:54.980 --> 0:11:01.980 Memoirs are found over@hughforhillsdale.com. Changing subjects just a little bit, doctor, 0:11:02.500 --> 0:11:06.580 let me ask you about the, uh, pug Ismay, because 0:11:06.580 --> 0:11:09.100 I learned this week I had to go back and 0:11:09.100 --> 0:11:11.700 forth to California. I'm listening to a book I read 0:11:11.700 --> 0:11:15.500 years ago called Freedom at Midnight about Mountbatten and the 0:11:15.500 --> 0:11:18.700 division of India and Pakistan. And it turns out Pug 0:11:18.700 --> 0:11:21.939 Ismay was his chief of staff for that, that Ismay 0:11:21.940 --> 0:11:23.699 keep notes. Does he have a memoir? 0:11:24.220 --> 0:11:27.540 Yeah, yeah. Uh, he published a book, and he was 0:11:27.540 --> 0:11:35.460 the first, uh, commanding general of NATO, uh, Supreme. What 0:11:35.460 --> 0:11:38.620 a shape. Supreme headquarters, Allied Allied. 0:11:38.620 --> 0:11:39.540 Forces, Europe. 0:11:39.940 --> 0:11:44.740 Uh, yeah. And, uh, he was, uh, yeah, he was 0:11:44.740 --> 0:11:47.800 very close to Churchill. He was a very good source 0:11:47.840 --> 0:11:50.640 in interviews with Martin Gilbert, and there's a lot of 0:11:50.640 --> 0:11:55.559 his thoughts in the in the official biography, which is 0:11:55.559 --> 0:11:58.960 the best biography. And yeah. And he and see, it 0:11:58.960 --> 0:12:02.400 was a very tight crowd, right? Like one of the 0:12:02.400 --> 0:12:05.040 reasons I mentioned it before, but Victor Hansen and his 0:12:05.040 --> 0:12:09.080 very good book, the Second World War, explains how effective 0:12:09.080 --> 0:12:11.439 the British were. You know, what they got out of 0:12:11.440 --> 0:12:14.520 themselves through this war because not just here, where they 0:12:14.520 --> 0:12:17.920 stood up alone and managed to stay, stave them off 0:12:17.920 --> 0:12:21.600 by the skin of their teeth. But then later they 0:12:21.640 --> 0:12:25.199 were strategists, right? And they helped to make the strategy 0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:27.640 that won the Second World War. And they invented much 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:33.040 of it, and they contributed very much beyond their resources 0:12:33.080 --> 0:12:37.440 or their relative size to us. There were more British 0:12:37.440 --> 0:12:42.679 and imperial soldiers going ashore on D-Day in June 1944 0:12:43.679 --> 0:12:48.670 than there were American. And, uh, we overtook them by 0:12:48.670 --> 0:12:50.990 the end of that 1940, by the end of the 0:12:51.030 --> 0:12:54.510 summer of 1944. But up until then, remember the the 0:12:54.510 --> 0:12:57.630 war ends in May of 1945. So most of the war, 0:12:58.070 --> 0:13:00.790 most of the soldiers on the Western Front were British 0:13:00.910 --> 0:13:03.310 and British Empire and Commonwealth. 0:13:03.309 --> 0:13:05.670 And Churchill makes that point. But he does make the point. 0:13:05.710 --> 0:13:08.950 America is carrying the burden in the Pacific, and he very, 0:13:09.309 --> 0:13:11.829 very liberal in his praise about that. But he wants 0:13:11.830 --> 0:13:14.030 to make sure the marker is down, that the Brits 0:13:14.309 --> 0:13:17.670 held the West and Stalin did his job. Of course. 0:13:18.190 --> 0:13:20.350 We should say something about this, because there's a lot 0:13:20.350 --> 0:13:22.710 of criticism, you know, because we live in the age 0:13:22.710 --> 0:13:26.550 of America first, and I'm very glad about it. And 0:13:26.750 --> 0:13:30.510 Roosevelt was a liberal imperialist. That is to say, he 0:13:31.429 --> 0:13:34.070 followed an argument that I don't believe can be made 0:13:34.070 --> 0:13:36.150 to work, and that is that the whole world has 0:13:36.150 --> 0:13:39.110 to be free or nobody's safe. And so our mission 0:13:39.110 --> 0:13:42.510 is to make the whole world free. And Churchill never 0:13:42.510 --> 0:13:47.290 subscribed to that. But Franklin Roosevelt did. On the other hand, 0:13:47.290 --> 0:13:50.210 you have to see that there's another reason why we 0:13:50.210 --> 0:13:54.970 might be involved in this frame. Franklin Roosevelt had been, uh, 0:13:55.090 --> 0:13:58.610 assistant secretary of the Navy, and he and Churchill corresponded 0:13:58.610 --> 0:14:02.530 the whole world, whole war under the title. But they 0:14:02.530 --> 0:14:05.650 both had the same title, former naval person. And because 0:14:05.690 --> 0:14:09.370 Churchill was first Lord of the Admiralty twice. Uh, and 0:14:10.650 --> 0:14:15.490 Roosevelt knew Alfred Thayer Mahan, and he was a late 19th, 0:14:15.530 --> 0:14:21.490 early 20th century scholar at the Naval Institute. Uh, and 0:14:21.490 --> 0:14:24.370 he wrote The Influence of Sea Power upon History. And 0:14:24.370 --> 0:14:28.530 it's a fundamentally important book. And it was the rage. 0:14:28.530 --> 0:14:32.410 And the British and American navies and in strategically still 0:14:32.410 --> 0:14:36.770 is today, strategic thinking. Right. And his thought was that 0:14:36.810 --> 0:14:40.410 sea power matters very much in the modern world, because 0:14:40.410 --> 0:14:43.440 the cheapest way to make mean to move goods and 0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:47.840 services about the world is by seeing cheapest and fastest. 0:14:48.240 --> 0:14:54.520 And because airplanes don't care that much. So he absorbed. 0:14:54.520 --> 0:14:57.680 Roosevelt has absorbed all that. And he's very concerned about 0:14:57.680 --> 0:15:00.720 what happens to the French Navy because they had a 0:15:00.720 --> 0:15:04.400 big navy. And then if Britain is defeated, what about 0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:09.680 the British Navy? And and, uh, you know, uh, so, 0:15:09.680 --> 0:15:13.600 so the point is there what people have to think 0:15:13.600 --> 0:15:16.400 through today, what we Americans have to think through today 0:15:16.400 --> 0:15:18.720 in the context of these wars that we're fighting all 0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:22.800 over the place, is how do you secure yourself when 0:15:22.800 --> 0:15:27.560 the world is much smaller, at the least possible cost 0:15:27.840 --> 0:15:32.400 of life and treasure, and the greatest possible expansion of 0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:37.040 ordinary peacetime pursuits? That's always the challenge in war. But 0:15:37.080 --> 0:15:40.520 especially for a free commercial republic, it is the challenge 0:15:41.100 --> 0:15:43.820 And the thing to absorb is that's more difficult now 0:15:44.220 --> 0:15:48.060 because we are subject to immediate attack all over the 0:15:48.060 --> 0:15:49.260 world and at home. 0:15:50.020 --> 0:15:54.900 And the growing strength of other naval powers is also 0:15:54.900 --> 0:15:57.500 a problem to us. And of the weaponry, as the 0:15:57.500 --> 0:16:01.140 Ukrainians have demonstrated in the Black Sea, the weapons necessary 0:16:01.140 --> 0:16:03.660 to destroy a fleet have changed as they change between 0:16:03.660 --> 0:16:06.580 World War One and World War Two, they've changed again. 0:16:06.620 --> 0:16:09.940 The airplane came along. Now we have drones, now drones 0:16:09.940 --> 0:16:14.260 can sink. And the Ukrainians sunk the Moscow, the lead 0:16:14.260 --> 0:16:18.260 ship of the Russian fleet in the Black Sea, using drones. 0:16:18.460 --> 0:16:21.100 That's the kind of thing that people look back in 0:16:21.100 --> 0:16:23.620 50 years and say, people ought to have woken up 0:16:23.620 --> 0:16:27.100 at that point to the the fundamental changes at sea 0:16:27.380 --> 0:16:28.220 going underwater. 0:16:28.260 --> 0:16:31.980 People don't understand one thing like why, for example, of 0:16:31.980 --> 0:16:34.900 the great powers, we need the Straits of Hormuz the 0:16:34.900 --> 0:16:40.920 least because we have. We're an oil net oil exporting country. 0:16:40.960 --> 0:16:45.040 That's true. We're also the largest user of the oil 0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:48.680 in the world. And there's very much oil that we 0:16:48.720 --> 0:16:53.200 don't have that we have to use heavy crude, and 0:16:53.200 --> 0:16:57.600 we don't have the refinery capacity to use a lot 0:16:57.600 --> 0:16:59.720 of the oil that we have. So we're what we 0:16:59.720 --> 0:17:03.560 really are is a net exporter, but also the heaviest 0:17:03.560 --> 0:17:07.520 trader of oil in the world. And so oil matters 0:17:07.520 --> 0:17:09.440 to us very much, even though we got a lot 0:17:09.440 --> 0:17:12.040 of it. I mean we should build a lot more refineries, 0:17:12.040 --> 0:17:16.360 by the way, to be more secure just using our own. 0:17:16.680 --> 0:17:20.000 It's probably not possible for us to be completely independent 0:17:20.000 --> 0:17:21.040 of foreign oil. 0:17:21.800 --> 0:17:24.439 Yeah. One of the reasons that digression, one of the 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:29.280 reasons Steve Hilton appears to have got through to the 0:17:29.280 --> 0:17:34.320 finals is that, uh, a major refinery, another one left 0:17:34.320 --> 0:17:36.400 in California. And I was out there a few weeks ago. 0:17:36.440 --> 0:17:40.869 Gas was $6.50, more than $2 a gallon more expensive 0:17:40.869 --> 0:17:42.990 than it is on the East Coast in the middle 0:17:42.990 --> 0:17:46.870 of the war because of their ridiculous regulations. And they've 0:17:46.869 --> 0:17:49.389 driven the refining capacity away and they won't explore for 0:17:49.390 --> 0:17:53.310 their own oil. It's crazy. It's self-defeating. But that's the reality. 0:17:53.710 --> 0:17:57.109 Welcome back America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. The Hillsdale Dialogue last 0:17:57.109 --> 0:18:00.150 broadcast hour of the week is underway with Doctor Larry Arnn, 0:18:00.150 --> 0:18:05.669 president of Hillsdale College, all things hillsdale@hughforhillsdale.com. The dialogue is 0:18:05.670 --> 0:18:09.630 at least all the online courses in Primus. The opportunity 0:18:09.630 --> 0:18:13.550 to find out about the college@hillsdale.edu. We're going to switch 0:18:13.550 --> 0:18:16.149 topics now to a different part of the war. Doctor, 0:18:16.750 --> 0:18:20.109 let me ask you now about Italy. Churchill has an 0:18:20.109 --> 0:18:24.469 unusual relationship with Mussolini, not unlike Donald Trump. He believes 0:18:24.470 --> 0:18:29.110 in personal diplomacy. So he writes Duce, a letter in 0:18:29.109 --> 0:18:31.109 which he says, is it too late to stop a 0:18:31.109 --> 0:18:33.429 river of blood from flowing between the British and the 0:18:33.470 --> 0:18:37.730 Italian peoples? In fact, it was too late. now. Mussolini 0:18:37.730 --> 0:18:39.649 had decided to throw in with the jackals. 0:18:41.410 --> 0:18:44.290 Yeah. And see that that corresponds. There are three things 0:18:44.290 --> 0:18:46.730 like this in the Second World War that are parallel. 0:18:47.369 --> 0:18:49.890 In this chapter, he talks about a letter he wrote 0:18:49.890 --> 0:18:54.290 to Stalin who's allied with Hitler at the time, and 0:18:54.290 --> 0:18:57.530 then later he will write, he will get a letter 0:18:57.530 --> 0:19:02.930 delivered to the Japanese ambassador who's in Moscow dealing with 0:19:03.050 --> 0:19:06.250 the Russians. That comes up in the next few chapters. 0:19:06.570 --> 0:19:10.169 And in all three of them, he writes a personal 0:19:10.170 --> 0:19:18.050 appeal with reasons why they should not join the axis, which, 0:19:18.050 --> 0:19:20.050 you remember, the Soviet Union was part of the axis 0:19:20.050 --> 0:19:23.530 at this moment. Well, in the case of Italy, he 0:19:23.530 --> 0:19:26.650 talks about the old alliance and friendship in the First 0:19:26.650 --> 0:19:29.530 World War and before between Italy and Britain, they'd always 0:19:29.530 --> 0:19:33.970 been friends or they'd mostly been friends. What is Mussolini 0:19:34.010 --> 0:19:38.390 reply with? Except the very thing that Churchill anticipated, and 0:19:38.390 --> 0:19:44.270 that was. We went to Abyssinia, not threatening any British interest, 0:19:44.270 --> 0:19:48.630 and you organized the world against us. And Churchill was 0:19:48.630 --> 0:19:53.909 reluctant about that back in 36 when that happened, because 0:19:53.910 --> 0:19:57.270 he thought, you know, we may need these Italians, right. 0:19:57.910 --> 0:20:01.990 And how does it affect us exactly? And, uh, and then, 0:20:02.030 --> 0:20:04.110 you know, we put we got the League of Nations 0:20:04.109 --> 0:20:08.990 to put sanctions on Italy, but they were heavily lobbied against. 0:20:08.990 --> 0:20:13.949 And so, uh, exempted from sanctions was oil. And Churchill 0:20:13.950 --> 0:20:17.150 writes of that back then when that was happening, uh, 0:20:17.470 --> 0:20:22.070 willing to strike but afraid to wound is what we are. So, 0:20:22.550 --> 0:20:25.869 so the point is that this, you know, this, these 0:20:25.869 --> 0:20:31.390 disasters that are unfolding have been prepared by what we 0:20:31.390 --> 0:20:34.190 read in the the gathering storm, the years that the 0:20:34.300 --> 0:20:39.939 locust has eaten right. The failure to re-arm the antagonizing 0:20:39.980 --> 0:20:47.060 of Germany. But, uh, you know. But that's earlier, right? That's. Well, uh, what. 0:20:47.060 --> 0:20:47.740 Did you and. 0:20:47.859 --> 0:20:48.820 Generous people. 0:20:49.260 --> 0:20:51.180 I want to remind everyone you worked with Sir Martin 0:20:51.180 --> 0:20:55.180 Gilbert for years. What did you and he. Or what 0:20:55.180 --> 0:20:59.420 did he tell you about Mussolini? Because he's a very 0:20:59.420 --> 0:21:02.179 shadowy figure in the American imagination. We know him as 0:21:02.420 --> 0:21:06.300 a strutting, thumping fascist. But for a time there in 0:21:06.300 --> 0:21:08.820 the 20s and the 30s, he and Churchill got along, 0:21:08.859 --> 0:21:12.100 as did some of the civilized world. What did Sir 0:21:12.140 --> 0:21:13.300 Martin think of him? 0:21:13.619 --> 0:21:16.100 Well, uh, what do you think of him? Well, he 0:21:16.100 --> 0:21:19.260 didn't think anything about him. It's not in the documents. Um, 0:21:19.619 --> 0:21:25.340 there's an interesting tidbit. Uh, Clementine Churchill met Mussolini and 0:21:25.340 --> 0:21:27.420 wrote to her husband about what he was like, and 0:21:27.420 --> 0:21:32.180 she was very taken with his galvanizing, powerful eyes. Uh, 0:21:32.780 --> 0:21:36.119 thought he was a force. It's not a letter of 0:21:36.119 --> 0:21:43.280 approval of his politics. The. The impression that British people had, 0:21:43.280 --> 0:21:47.800 first of all, Italy was, you know, kind of a joke, right? 0:21:48.119 --> 0:21:50.760 You know, it's Italy has been a mess for a 0:21:50.760 --> 0:21:53.800 very long time, had been a mess for a long time. 0:21:53.800 --> 0:21:57.080 And the going concerns in Europe, the powers in Europe 0:21:57.119 --> 0:22:02.160 were Britain and France and Germany and, and, uh, so 0:22:02.640 --> 0:22:06.480 Italy was a junior partner, right? And so then some 0:22:06.480 --> 0:22:10.719 people thought that kind of good. What Mussolini's saying he 0:22:10.720 --> 0:22:14.439 wants to recover the strength of Italy, the Rome, the 0:22:14.440 --> 0:22:19.160 Romans of Italy. Right. And fascism that comes from, uh, 0:22:19.600 --> 0:22:25.800 some bound together sticks that the Romans would carry called fasces, uh, 0:22:26.160 --> 0:22:29.679 in their ceremonies. Right. To be a fascist in Italy 0:22:29.720 --> 0:22:31.920 was to be for the resurrection of the glory of 0:22:31.950 --> 0:22:35.550 Rome and the power of Rome. And so you wouldn't 0:22:35.550 --> 0:22:39.630 be entirely unsympathetic with that, especially when Italy, you know, like, 0:22:39.630 --> 0:22:41.189 what did they say? Well, the famous thing they said 0:22:41.190 --> 0:22:44.350 about Mussolini was he made the trains run on time, 0:22:44.910 --> 0:22:48.030 you know, because if you live in a country and 0:22:48.030 --> 0:22:50.429 things don't work like in LA. 0:22:50.790 --> 0:22:52.830 Then I know what you're going to say. You're going 0:22:52.830 --> 0:22:56.630 to accept a minimum. And for a while Mussolini did 0:22:56.670 --> 0:23:00.750 bring order. But then he brought fascism and its awfulness. 0:23:00.950 --> 0:23:02.910 We'll come back and talk more about that. I want 0:23:02.910 --> 0:23:07.710 to remind you all things hillsdale@hillsdale.edu, including their online courses 0:23:07.710 --> 0:23:10.189 on World War Two and on Churchill and on the 0:23:10.190 --> 0:23:13.909 Revolution as We approach 1776. Also want to remind you 0:23:13.910 --> 0:23:18.149 that all the prior conversations with Doctor Ahern about this book, 0:23:18.190 --> 0:23:20.989 Winston Churchill's Volume two, and his World War memoirs, The 0:23:20.990 --> 0:23:27.030 Finest Hour, their Finest hour, available at hue for hillsdale.com. 0:23:27.070 --> 0:23:31.170 Stay tuned. Welcome back America. Hugh Hewitt with doctor. Larry Arnn. 0:23:31.170 --> 0:23:34.050 Hillsdale dialogue underway. The last broadcast hour of the week. 0:23:34.050 --> 0:23:38.609 All things hillsdale@hillsdale.edu. Doctor Ryan, you said you had a 0:23:38.650 --> 0:23:40.250 bit of a frolic and a detour. 0:23:41.170 --> 0:23:46.209 Uh, I once had a galvanising discussion. I went down to, uh, 0:23:46.890 --> 0:23:51.649 Guatemala to an academic conference, and the conference was staffed 0:23:51.650 --> 0:23:55.730 by some students at Francisco Marroquin University, a little Catholic 0:23:55.730 --> 0:23:59.570 school there. That's kind of nice. And, uh, so I 0:23:59.890 --> 0:24:02.410 was taken with the students as my kind of people, 0:24:02.450 --> 0:24:05.010 you know, so I took about half a dozen of 0:24:05.010 --> 0:24:08.170 them out to dinner one night, and we talked and 0:24:08.170 --> 0:24:09.930 I wanted to find out about them. What do they think? 0:24:09.930 --> 0:24:13.210 What's the world like? Right. And this one particular young 0:24:13.210 --> 0:24:16.649 woman who was the daughter of a of one of 0:24:16.650 --> 0:24:19.810 the organizers of the conference, a very good guy. She'd 0:24:19.810 --> 0:24:21.970 been to America. And I said, what do you make 0:24:22.010 --> 0:24:28.090 of it? And she said, everything works and everything is clean. Huh? 0:24:29.710 --> 0:24:33.990 That Spencer Pratt and the governor candidate both right there saying, look, 0:24:34.030 --> 0:24:36.310 we're falling apart here. Yeah. And you don't want to 0:24:36.310 --> 0:24:41.390 live in a society like that. Well, Mussolini was cleaning 0:24:41.390 --> 0:24:44.310 some of that up and people liked it. And, you know, 0:24:44.470 --> 0:24:48.550 and remember Hitler, who's, you know, let's just say Hitler 0:24:48.550 --> 0:24:51.710 was a very bad man. Right. On the other hand, 0:24:51.710 --> 0:24:55.110 what had Germany been through? I mean, it's their fault 0:24:55.109 --> 0:24:58.310 that they got hammered in the First World War. They 0:24:58.350 --> 0:25:01.870 hammered everybody else first. But then after that, there's this 0:25:01.869 --> 0:25:08.109 terrible inflation and disorganization and violence in the streets. And. 0:25:08.510 --> 0:25:12.550 And Hitler gets them going again. Right. And he was 0:25:12.550 --> 0:25:17.670 very popular for a while. Um, and Mussolini is sort 0:25:17.670 --> 0:25:19.909 of similar, you know, let's straighten this place out and 0:25:19.910 --> 0:25:23.510 get it going, get some vigor back. Right. And, uh, 0:25:24.070 --> 0:25:28.900 Mussolini proved to be ultimately a weak man. We have 0:25:28.900 --> 0:25:33.780 that great letter in these chapters from his son in law, 0:25:33.820 --> 0:25:38.540 Count Ciano, whom he executed it cause to be executed, 0:25:38.940 --> 0:25:41.460 and who turned on Mussolini. That's why he had him 0:25:41.460 --> 0:25:44.420 executed at the hands of Germany. He was in Berlin. 0:25:44.940 --> 0:25:49.940 And he writes what's true. And that is Mussolini was 0:25:49.940 --> 0:25:55.020 eventually completely mastered by Hitler when his when Hitler took 0:25:55.060 --> 0:26:03.659 Austria in 36. That affected Italian interests, because Austria is 0:26:03.660 --> 0:26:08.500 over the hills from Italy. And Hitler was nervous about 0:26:08.500 --> 0:26:12.540 what Mussolini would think, and Mussolini let him do it. 0:26:12.780 --> 0:26:17.700 And when he did that, Hitler called him Duce. Uh. 0:26:18.060 --> 0:26:23.340 He said, Duce, I pledge eternal loyalty to you. But 0:26:23.340 --> 0:26:27.060 then within a year, uh, Mussolini goes to see Hitler 0:26:27.680 --> 0:26:31.240 and wonders if he's going to be executed before he 0:26:31.240 --> 0:26:32.440 leaves the house. 0:26:33.119 --> 0:26:33.960 And Ciano. 0:26:33.960 --> 0:26:34.200 Wrote. 0:26:35.040 --> 0:26:39.639 In that letter, he said he wanted to tell people 0:26:39.640 --> 0:26:41.520 he was the only foreigner who was at close quarters 0:26:41.520 --> 0:26:46.120 with Hitler, that the world should not be ignorant of 0:26:46.119 --> 0:26:48.159 the fact that the misfortune of Italy was not the 0:26:48.160 --> 0:26:50.400 fault of her people, but due to the shameful behavior 0:26:50.400 --> 0:26:52.720 of one man. Which brings me to the last point 0:26:52.760 --> 0:26:57.800 of this hour FDR after Italy stabs France in the back, 0:26:57.840 --> 0:27:01.240 FDR goes on radio in America, gives a great speech 0:27:01.240 --> 0:27:04.920 denouncing Mussolini as the hand that held the dagger that 0:27:04.920 --> 0:27:07.960 is stuck into the back of its neighbor. Churchill thought 0:27:07.960 --> 0:27:10.600 this was a great speech, especially because it was five 0:27:10.600 --> 0:27:14.640 months before an election in which FDR needed the Italian vote. 0:27:14.960 --> 0:27:18.919 And he said FDR was, quote, never afraid to run 0:27:18.920 --> 0:27:22.159 risk for the sake of his resolves. And one of 0:27:22.160 --> 0:27:25.800 those resolves was Great Britain should endure. Do you do 0:27:25.859 --> 0:27:29.780 you think that, uh, Trump has resolves the way that 0:27:29.820 --> 0:27:32.420 FDR had resolved lines that he will not allow to 0:27:32.420 --> 0:27:33.020 be crossed? 0:27:33.580 --> 0:27:37.860 Oh, yeah. Well, you know, first of all, he's very tough, right? Look. 0:27:37.859 --> 0:27:40.020 What the look what's happened to him, right? They're going 0:27:40.060 --> 0:27:42.620 to put him in jail and take his money. And 0:27:42.619 --> 0:27:48.619 he got running for office one. He's very tough. Uh, he's, uh, I, I, 0:27:48.780 --> 0:27:53.580 I think, uh, you know, Trump, you know, I don't, 0:27:53.619 --> 0:27:55.379 you know, I don't know Donald Trump. Well, I know 0:27:55.380 --> 0:27:59.100 him a bit. I do know that, uh, Trump is 0:27:59.100 --> 0:28:04.060 not slow to return a blow because he's, he's, you know, 0:28:04.100 --> 0:28:06.740 what's this thing that's going on right now about the weapon, 0:28:06.780 --> 0:28:10.540 about the Justice Department defense fund for people who have 0:28:10.540 --> 0:28:14.219 weaponized government against them. He, you know, he wants to 0:28:14.220 --> 0:28:18.500 protect his people. And also he wants to hit back. And, uh, 0:28:19.380 --> 0:28:23.020 that's natural. And, you know, history will judge whether he 0:28:23.020 --> 0:28:25.370 goes too far with that or not. But he's he 0:28:25.410 --> 0:28:27.090 is certainly like that. He's. 0:28:27.130 --> 0:28:29.889 Now, the last thing I want to say is that 0:28:29.930 --> 0:28:35.570 when Churchill made a request, uh, of the United States, um, 0:28:35.570 --> 0:28:38.730 George Marshall, who was beginning to enter into this book, 0:28:38.970 --> 0:28:42.890 took 48 hours to inventory everything that America could give 0:28:42.930 --> 0:28:47.290 Great Britain. And certainly us got it done. And FDR said, 0:28:47.290 --> 0:28:49.770 do it. It's sort of like when, when Nixon said, 0:28:49.850 --> 0:28:52.450 send every plane that can fly to Israel in 1973 0:28:52.450 --> 0:28:54.570 and the Yom Kippur War. I didn't know about this 0:28:54.570 --> 0:28:59.130 until this book. 48 hours to inventory everything that we 0:28:59.130 --> 0:29:02.090 did not need for a bare bones defense of America. 0:29:02.130 --> 0:29:03.930 Do you think we could do that today? 0:29:04.810 --> 0:29:09.170 Uh, well, we're short of weapons, right? Um, so yeah, 0:29:09.170 --> 0:29:14.370 but we, you know, we're in an emergency. Free peoples 0:29:14.370 --> 0:29:19.210 can do a lot. And, uh, and it's, you know, 0:29:19.250 --> 0:29:22.930 just remember that, like, and if you, if you read 0:29:22.930 --> 0:29:28.550 the story of the Russian Revolution. And Solzhenitsyn, you know, 0:29:28.590 --> 0:29:32.190 is publishing these five volumes called the Red wheel that 0:29:32.190 --> 0:29:36.550 are awesome to read. They're really good. And, uh, if 0:29:36.590 --> 0:29:40.030 you read that, uh, you find out that the place 0:29:40.030 --> 0:29:42.950 Russia's falling apart in the last days, right? And the 0:29:42.950 --> 0:29:45.990 orders are not carried out and stuff like that. Well, 0:29:45.990 --> 0:29:48.790 we reacted fast and we were united and we fought 0:29:48.790 --> 0:29:51.310 very well in that war. And we did a lot 0:29:51.350 --> 0:29:55.390 through a lot of setbacks. So yeah, uh, he and, 0:29:55.430 --> 0:29:56.550 you know, we could move. 0:29:56.750 --> 0:29:58.790 We can move. And we chose to move. And we 0:29:58.790 --> 0:30:02.030 will talk more about how Great Britain actually did mobilize 0:30:02.030 --> 0:30:05.390 quite well. They did actually move very fast. And in fact, 0:30:05.390 --> 0:30:09.190 Churchill wrote that that train at an ever accelerating pace 0:30:09.190 --> 0:30:11.910 until victory was assured will come back. And we'll talk 0:30:11.950 --> 0:30:16.670 about all of that and more. A reminder everything hillsdale@hillsdale.edu, 0:30:16.710 --> 0:30:19.550 including those of you who are maybe sophomore juniors, going 0:30:19.550 --> 0:30:22.460 to be rising seniors. You want to make your application 0:30:22.460 --> 0:30:24.180 to Hillsdale and you want to do it right now. 0:30:24.180 --> 0:30:28.860 That application is available@hillsdale.edu. Not your ordinary application. You want 0:30:28.900 --> 0:30:30.380 to study it, you want to send it in. It's 0:30:30.380 --> 0:30:32.900 a great place to learn, a great place to prepare. 0:30:33.260 --> 0:30:36.260 My goodness, the network effects of that college now are amazing. 0:30:36.500 --> 0:30:38.620 Or if you just want to listen to all of 0:30:38.620 --> 0:30:43.980 the Churchill dialogue about World War Two, head to hughforhillsdale.com. 0:30:44.020 --> 0:30:48.820 They're all collected there over at hue for hillsdale.com. Stay tuned. 0:30:49.380 --> 0:30:51.900 Welcome back America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. I want to take 0:30:51.900 --> 0:30:54.180 a moment before we close out this week's broadcast. I 0:30:54.180 --> 0:30:58.300 asked Doctor Larry Arnn about where we are in defense spending, 0:30:58.300 --> 0:31:01.740 where we are in preparing not for the war that's 0:31:01.740 --> 0:31:03.980 currently paused, but for the next war and the war 0:31:04.020 --> 0:31:07.500 after that, as of course, Britain didn't prepare in the 0:31:07.500 --> 0:31:11.180 30s and they barely survived the 40s. What say you? 0:31:11.220 --> 0:31:12.020 Doctor Arnn. 0:31:12.300 --> 0:31:17.140 You know, this this big bill that they're talking about, uh, 0:31:17.460 --> 0:31:20.760 you know, a billion, trillion and a half Defense. 0:31:21.160 --> 0:31:22.080 Yeah. Trillion five. 0:31:22.120 --> 0:31:29.720 Yeah. That's that's a big restocking. And, uh, we need that. 0:31:30.040 --> 0:31:33.280 We need to build the right things. It's the, the 0:31:33.280 --> 0:31:35.720 big challenge about that. And, you know, some of these 0:31:35.720 --> 0:31:39.640 tech people better than I do, there's a generational jump 0:31:39.640 --> 0:31:43.320 in weaponry. And we talked about it earlier, uh, as 0:31:43.320 --> 0:31:46.840 to World War One and battleships, World War Two and 0:31:46.840 --> 0:31:52.520 aircraft carriers, and now in the Persian and Arabian Gulf 0:31:52.520 --> 0:31:54.560 and in the Black Sea, we're learning it's just a 0:31:54.560 --> 0:31:57.160 brand new world at sea. We better be building the 0:31:57.160 --> 0:31:58.479 right stuff. Do you think we are? 0:31:59.080 --> 0:32:03.960 Well, I heard the sage Palmer Luckey talk about that. 0:32:04.360 --> 0:32:04.600 Oh. 0:32:05.160 --> 0:32:08.480 And, uh, uh, he says it takes ten years to 0:32:08.520 --> 0:32:14.160 revolutionize the American military industrial base. And for the next 0:32:14.200 --> 0:32:17.080 most of the next five, we're going to be building 0:32:17.080 --> 0:32:19.360 more of what we got. And we can add a 0:32:19.420 --> 0:32:23.700 lot too, but like, uh, we need to replenish the 0:32:23.700 --> 0:32:27.100 stocks of the stuff that we have invented and know 0:32:27.100 --> 0:32:32.340 how to use and have. Uh, so, so it'll be 0:32:32.340 --> 0:32:35.740 a transition, right? You know, I even think that, uh, 0:32:36.180 --> 0:32:38.900 the Chinese Navy is getting so big in the things 0:32:38.900 --> 0:32:42.180 going to the advantage is going to grow. There's a, 0:32:42.180 --> 0:32:45.050 there's a moment of danger, a two or 3 or 0:32:45.050 --> 0:32:48.500 4 year period of danger coming up right now. So 0:32:48.500 --> 0:32:52.140 we should replenish the stocks of what we got. We 0:32:52.140 --> 0:32:54.740 should buy as much as we can of the more 0:32:54.740 --> 0:32:59.860 innovative things that should be cheaper. Palmer Luckey said that 0:33:00.100 --> 0:33:03.700 he would be disappointed if, in ten years the defense 0:33:03.700 --> 0:33:07.980 budget was not half or less what it is in 0:33:07.980 --> 0:33:11.460 a normal year now, and that we're not more lethal 0:33:11.980 --> 0:33:13.020 after it too. 0:33:13.540 --> 0:33:17.180 Well, you know, it may be what? Maybe it was. 0:33:17.180 --> 0:33:20.210 Churchill said, God loves the United States and drunks. It 0:33:20.210 --> 0:33:23.690 may be that the Chinese spent 25 years building ships 0:33:24.010 --> 0:33:27.290 that are not useful to the next war, because of 0:33:27.330 --> 0:33:30.650 what we're seeing with the revolution underneath the water and 0:33:30.650 --> 0:33:33.729 above the water, we shall see. Doctor Larry Arnn, all 0:33:33.730 --> 0:33:38.690 things Hillsdale can be found@hillsdale.edu. All of the prior Hillsdale 0:33:38.690 --> 0:33:43.290 dialogues are found@hughforhillsdale.com. Thank you for listening. We'll be back 0:33:43.290 --> 0:33:45.850 next week. Same time, the last broadcast hour of the week. 0:33:45.890 --> 0:33:46.610 Until then. 0:33:50.610 --> 0:33:53.810 Thanks for listening to the Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the 0:33:53.810 --> 0:34:02.530 Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes@podcast.hillsdale.edu or wherever you find 0:34:02.530 --> 0:34:08.610 your audio. For more information about Hillsdale College, head to hillsdale.edu.