WEBVTT - Building Practical Solutions to Homelessness 0:00:06.640 --> 0:00:11.360 From the historic campus of Hillsdale College in Hillsdale, Michigan, 0:00:11.360 --> 0:00:15.160 where the good, the true and the beautiful are taught, 0:00:15.200 --> 0:00:20.000 nurtured and honored. This is the radio free Hillsdale Hour, 0:00:20.040 --> 0:00:23.920 bringing the activity and education of the college to listeners 0:00:23.920 --> 0:00:25.320 across the country. 0:00:25.320 --> 0:00:29.080 So there were terrible street conditions almost everywhere. And I 0:00:29.120 --> 0:00:31.720 kind of expected the people were going to be, you know, 0:00:31.760 --> 0:00:36.760 really disgusted. But the reaction I heard most was compassion. 0:00:36.800 --> 0:00:38.479 I mean, deep compassion. 0:00:38.520 --> 0:00:41.800 This is your host, Scott Bertram. Welcome to the Radio 0:00:41.800 --> 0:00:46.400 Free Hillsdale Hour. Part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. 0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:49.520 That was Mary Thoreau, chairman of the board of directors 0:00:49.520 --> 0:00:53.960 and CEO of the Independent Institute. Her book is Beyond 0:00:54.000 --> 0:00:58.160 Homeless Good Intentions, Bad Outcomes, Transformative Solutions. We talk with 0:00:58.160 --> 0:01:01.280 Mary in depth in just a moment on today's program. 0:01:01.280 --> 0:01:04.920 Later on, Marty Gillman from Hillsdale's chemistry department is back 0:01:04.920 --> 0:01:08.400 to conclude her story on the history of phlogiston theory 0:01:08.400 --> 0:01:12.840 and fire and how combustion works. First, we're joined now 0:01:12.840 --> 0:01:16.199 by Mary Thoreau. She's chairman and chief executive officer at 0:01:16.200 --> 0:01:21.959 the Independent Institute. more@independent.org. Mary, thanks so much for joining us. 0:01:22.400 --> 0:01:23.839 Thank you so much for inviting me. 0:01:23.880 --> 0:01:28.119 Talking about your recent book, which people can find beyond 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:35.360 homeless good intentions, bad outcomes, Transformative solutions. Homelessness is more 0:01:35.360 --> 0:01:39.360 complex than people think. You argue and you say, there's 0:01:39.360 --> 0:01:41.840 not a single cause, of course, of homelessness. Can you 0:01:41.840 --> 0:01:45.880 walk us through the range from systemic issues to personal crisis? 0:01:45.880 --> 0:01:48.400 How do people find themselves in homelessness? 0:01:48.560 --> 0:01:52.240 Well, as I think we all agree, people are individuals 0:01:52.560 --> 0:01:58.670 and therefore they have very individualized paths into homelessness. anything from. 0:01:58.710 --> 0:02:02.590 I mean, there certainly are addiction issues and there are 0:02:02.790 --> 0:02:07.310 mental health issues which do account for large numbers of 0:02:07.310 --> 0:02:11.270 people who are experiencing homelessness. But I've talked to, oh, 0:02:11.270 --> 0:02:13.710 I don't know, scores or hundreds of people over the 0:02:13.710 --> 0:02:17.630 years I've been involved in this work. And it's varied. 0:02:18.070 --> 0:02:21.790 A lot of it comes out of childhood trauma. There 0:02:22.910 --> 0:02:26.549 are are so many broken homes, so many so much 0:02:26.550 --> 0:02:30.350 violence in homes. And children just are not enabled to 0:02:30.389 --> 0:02:34.750 become functioning adults. I'd say trauma is the largest driver. 0:02:35.070 --> 0:02:39.550 Trauma can also manifest itself as mental illness. And then 0:02:39.870 --> 0:02:43.910 self-medicating trauma can manifest itself as addiction. But I've also 0:02:43.910 --> 0:02:46.310 talked to people just, you know, literally did have bad 0:02:46.310 --> 0:02:50.549 luck and some of it really terrible luck. Fortunately, those 0:02:50.550 --> 0:02:53.630 are the ones who can usually be helped out of 0:02:53.630 --> 0:02:57.990 homelessness the quickest. The people who have severe mental illness or. 0:02:58.030 --> 0:03:01.510 Or drug addiction or a combination of the. Both, which 0:03:01.510 --> 0:03:05.190 is very common. Are there more tricky ones to help? 0:03:05.190 --> 0:03:08.310 But they can be helped. And we have countless examples 0:03:08.310 --> 0:03:12.669 of people who have been helped to transform their lives, 0:03:12.669 --> 0:03:17.190 to become to reach their full potentials. It's not hopeless 0:03:17.190 --> 0:03:19.830 and our government treats it as if it is. 0:03:20.389 --> 0:03:24.230 On the whole. Would you say we're better today in 0:03:24.230 --> 0:03:27.150 dealing with the problem of homelessness than we were, say, 0:03:27.389 --> 0:03:28.550 30 years ago? 0:03:28.830 --> 0:03:33.270 No, we're much worse at it. In 2013, the federal 0:03:33.270 --> 0:03:37.510 government adopted Housing First as the one size fits all 0:03:37.510 --> 0:03:43.150 policy solution for homelessness. And it's a terrible, quote unquote solution. 0:03:43.270 --> 0:03:47.310 It claims that the reason people are experiencing. Well, the 0:03:47.310 --> 0:03:51.350 term homelessness, I mean, that implies that people are in 0:03:51.350 --> 0:03:54.310 the streets because they don't have a home. If you 0:03:54.350 --> 0:03:57.070 give them a home, you've solved their problem. And that 0:03:57.070 --> 0:03:59.390 is so far from the truth. You have not done 0:03:59.390 --> 0:04:03.350 anything to address the underlying issues that put them into homelessness. 0:04:03.750 --> 0:04:06.990 As one Salvation Army officer I spoke to said about 0:04:06.990 --> 0:04:11.950 Housing First is there inside, but they're still culturally homeless. Mhm. 0:04:12.150 --> 0:04:15.350 And they die at higher rates when they're put into 0:04:15.390 --> 0:04:19.909 isolated housing by themselves than they do when they're, you know, 0:04:20.029 --> 0:04:22.510 oddly in community in the streets. 0:04:23.470 --> 0:04:27.070 So what happens at that point? Housing first is you're 0:04:27.070 --> 0:04:29.630 critical of it in in the book Beyond Homeless. It 0:04:29.630 --> 0:04:33.430 doesn't address the root causes. Once people get the housing, 0:04:33.430 --> 0:04:36.710 the housing first, what ends up happening generally. 0:04:37.310 --> 0:04:40.350 So housing first came out of a very limited pilot 0:04:40.350 --> 0:04:46.750 program of people who were severely mentally ill and suffering from, 0:04:46.870 --> 0:04:52.750 you know, severe problems and were housed with accompanying services 0:04:52.750 --> 0:04:56.310 to address their issues. And that worked well for that 0:04:56.310 --> 0:05:01.070 small set of the population. The. As always, the Army decided, oh, 0:05:01.110 --> 0:05:03.790 it works well. Give it to. Let's apply it to 0:05:03.830 --> 0:05:07.550 absolutely everybody. And the problem. There are several problems with it. 0:05:07.589 --> 0:05:11.550 One is there's. It's not being built. It's very expensive 0:05:11.550 --> 0:05:16.070 here in California. LA now is building permanent supportive housing 0:05:16.070 --> 0:05:22.230 units for $1.5 million each. That's to house one person. 0:05:22.270 --> 0:05:25.390 There's a lot of pushback from these developments being built. 0:05:25.390 --> 0:05:29.190 Rightly so. So not many of them are getting built. Um, 0:05:29.190 --> 0:05:32.270 and it's so expensive. They could spend an infinite number 0:05:32.270 --> 0:05:35.430 of an infinite amount of money on it, and you 0:05:35.430 --> 0:05:38.990 would not have sufficient housing. But the more important issue 0:05:39.029 --> 0:05:41.630 of it is this, you know, housing first or so-called 0:05:41.630 --> 0:05:45.190 permanent supportive housing. Well, there are a couple problems with that. 0:05:45.190 --> 0:05:50.060 One is moral. You're assuming permanent supportive housing. The people 0:05:50.060 --> 0:05:54.020 have to be permanently supported in housing. They're not going 0:05:54.060 --> 0:05:57.180 to get any better. You're just going to warehouse them forever. 0:05:57.180 --> 0:06:00.740 And that is just so objectionable. People do have the 0:06:00.740 --> 0:06:05.220 ability to come out of homelessness and be reach their 0:06:05.220 --> 0:06:09.140 full potential, and many of them can become fully independent. 0:06:09.300 --> 0:06:13.700 And that is what we wish for people. The utilitarian 0:06:13.700 --> 0:06:17.580 issue with it is, again, it's not addressing the issues 0:06:17.580 --> 0:06:20.820 that put them into homelessness in the first place. And 0:06:20.820 --> 0:06:24.299 those are many and varied. The models that we cite 0:06:24.300 --> 0:06:29.660 in the book are programs that provide the many services 0:06:30.180 --> 0:06:34.140 that people need on an individual basis. Some people need, 0:06:34.540 --> 0:06:38.260 you know, workforce training to become employable. Some people need 0:06:38.460 --> 0:06:42.980 mental health care, they need recovery services. They may and 0:06:43.020 --> 0:06:47.500 they need help finding employment, getting their ID. Some people, 0:06:47.580 --> 0:06:49.500 it's just as simple as they don't have an ID, 0:06:49.540 --> 0:06:52.420 they need an ID, they need a mailing address so 0:06:52.420 --> 0:06:55.340 that when they apply for jobs, they can get responses 0:06:55.339 --> 0:07:00.140 and so on. So there are myriad things that people need, 0:07:00.140 --> 0:07:03.940 and you don't supply those with a one size fits 0:07:03.980 --> 0:07:06.940 all solution of here's your apartment. Good luck. 0:07:08.300 --> 0:07:12.900 You have the phrase the homelessness industrial complex inside the 0:07:12.900 --> 0:07:16.820 book Beyond Homeless. In chapter six, specifically, you're looking at 0:07:16.820 --> 0:07:20.340 San Francisco. The dollar spent on programs as compared to 0:07:20.380 --> 0:07:24.980 the dollars that actually make it to the people experiencing homelessness. 0:07:25.020 --> 0:07:29.460 What's that mix in San Francisco and how should it change? 0:07:31.340 --> 0:07:33.940 Well, the term is not original with me. It's a 0:07:33.940 --> 0:07:39.100 widely used term. And but it's very true. Literally in California, 0:07:39.140 --> 0:07:44.300 literally billions of dollars are being directed, quote unquote, at homelessness. 0:07:44.300 --> 0:07:48.100 There was an audit from the state auditor last year 0:07:48.100 --> 0:07:52.580 that said the California spent $24 billion over five years 0:07:52.580 --> 0:07:56.140 on homelessness services, and it cannot account for where that 0:07:56.140 --> 0:08:00.300 money went and what outcomes it produced. The same is 0:08:00.300 --> 0:08:04.340 true in San Francisco. The same is true almost everywhere. 0:08:04.380 --> 0:08:08.580 There are vast numbers of money taxpayer money being thrown 0:08:08.580 --> 0:08:14.660 at homelessness, directed to various nonprofits which get corrupted by 0:08:14.660 --> 0:08:20.540 that money. They lose their way. And there are stories 0:08:20.860 --> 0:08:25.540 almost every day on the corruption involved. People are directing 0:08:25.540 --> 0:08:29.300 millions of dollars to their own pockets, to that of friends, 0:08:29.300 --> 0:08:33.260 on lavish trips, on you name it. It's going there. 0:08:33.260 --> 0:08:40.340 And again, nobody's measuring. Nobody is asking these nonprofits to 0:08:40.380 --> 0:08:43.939 provide reporting on what they're doing with the money and importantly, 0:08:43.940 --> 0:08:47.980 what the outcomes are. Anything that the government does report 0:08:47.980 --> 0:08:52.460 on homelessness is all outputs. Well, we spent $20 million 0:08:52.460 --> 0:08:55.660 on this. We put 8000 people out on the streets 0:08:55.660 --> 0:09:00.180 to with outreach services. We passed out, you know, 500 0:09:00.179 --> 0:09:04.180 000 needles and so on, but nothing about, well, what 0:09:04.260 --> 0:09:07.340 what did you achieve with it? So I blame the 0:09:07.340 --> 0:09:11.460 people responsible for handing out the money. You know, these 0:09:11.460 --> 0:09:16.340 stories all vilify the non-profits and the corruption at the non-profits. 0:09:16.700 --> 0:09:20.180 But to quote the great Harry Brown, when you strew 0:09:20.220 --> 0:09:23.420 the streets with raw meat and packs of wild dogs come, 0:09:23.420 --> 0:09:25.340 you don't blame the dogs. 0:09:25.980 --> 0:09:30.059 Mary Thoreau is with us. Her book, Beyond Homeless Good Intentions, 0:09:30.059 --> 0:09:35.780 Bad Outcomes, Transformative Solutions. So let's talk about what works 0:09:36.059 --> 0:09:41.700 in Beyond Homeless. You talk about housing readiness programs. One 0:09:41.770 --> 0:09:44.170 of those programs. How is it? How are they different 0:09:44.170 --> 0:09:46.290 philosophically from Housing First? 0:09:46.650 --> 0:09:50.890 Well, housing readiness programs provide people a path from an 0:09:50.929 --> 0:09:57.729 appropriate path, from the streets to self-sufficiency or their full potential, 0:09:57.730 --> 0:10:02.650 whatever that may be. And it provides recovery services for 0:10:02.650 --> 0:10:06.650 those who are suffering from substance use disorder. It provides 0:10:06.650 --> 0:10:10.970 mental health stabilization for those who can be stabilized as well. 0:10:11.010 --> 0:10:14.010 Some people will need full custodial care, but that's a 0:10:14.010 --> 0:10:17.449 minority and so on. There's a program here in San 0:10:17.450 --> 0:10:20.729 Francisco called The Way Out, run by the Salvation Army, 0:10:21.130 --> 0:10:26.010 and it goes everywhere from from detox to recovery, then 0:10:26.010 --> 0:10:31.050 into a long term program with workforce training, life skills training, 0:10:31.770 --> 0:10:36.329 including you can spend a year or two just in 0:10:36.490 --> 0:10:41.890 there safe and sober Residency. You may be fully employed, 0:10:41.890 --> 0:10:45.330 but you're living in an environment in which, as you 0:10:45.370 --> 0:10:49.050 hit life's bumps and you're tempted to go back to 0:10:49.090 --> 0:10:52.050 the crutch of drugs or alcohol, you're in an environment 0:10:52.050 --> 0:10:56.850 that helps you resist that temptation to to resume your 0:10:56.850 --> 0:11:01.650 addiction until you're really ready to go out into the 0:11:01.690 --> 0:11:05.130 so-called real world and live in an environment in which 0:11:05.130 --> 0:11:09.370 there is temptation at your doorstep, and you're prepared to 0:11:09.770 --> 0:11:13.650 resist it and continue on in a well functioning life. 0:11:14.170 --> 0:11:16.690 The other one we cite a lot, and it's also 0:11:16.690 --> 0:11:20.170 very featured in our our documentary, which accompanies the book, 0:11:20.170 --> 0:11:23.810 which is also called Beyond Homeless, is Haven for Hope 0:11:23.809 --> 0:11:24.890 in San Antonio. 0:11:24.929 --> 0:11:27.250 Right, Mary? This is one I'm aware of. I think 0:11:27.250 --> 0:11:30.410 we've talked about it in a previous conversation we've had. 0:11:30.450 --> 0:11:32.929 Tell us more about Haven for Hope, how it's different 0:11:32.929 --> 0:11:37.130 from other programs and why you think it's been particularly successful. 0:11:37.570 --> 0:11:40.650 It's been operating for 15 years, and it's just the 0:11:40.650 --> 0:11:45.810 most marvelous model, mostly because the entire community is involved 0:11:45.809 --> 0:11:50.410 in it. Every part of the community, you know, the police, fire, EMS, 0:11:50.450 --> 0:11:54.850 the hospital system, the business community, the volunteer community. They 0:11:54.850 --> 0:12:00.729 partner with 100 nonprofits, 80 of whom office on their campus. 0:12:01.250 --> 0:12:05.170 So they have a 22 acre campus right next to downtown. 0:12:05.170 --> 0:12:08.810 And it offers everything from just a safe sleeping site with, 0:12:08.850 --> 0:12:13.929 you know, showers and meals and access to services. If 0:12:13.929 --> 0:12:17.850 people want to avail themselves of it to a secure 0:12:17.890 --> 0:12:21.530 campus where people can live, they do have to maintain 0:12:21.530 --> 0:12:26.130 their sobriety. They have to be actively working on their program, 0:12:26.130 --> 0:12:32.010 which is highly individualized. They come into that campus, they're interviewed, hey, 0:12:32.050 --> 0:12:35.370 tell us your story, what happened to you? And from 0:12:35.370 --> 0:12:40.569 that information, together they can identify, okay, what's what's your barrier? 0:12:40.929 --> 0:12:44.530 And then they can bring in the appropriate nonprofit service 0:12:44.570 --> 0:12:49.450 providers to build a whole case management team around that 0:12:49.450 --> 0:12:53.930 individual and work with them as they learn how to 0:12:53.970 --> 0:12:58.650 transform their lives and go to a fully functional outside 0:12:58.650 --> 0:13:02.730 life again. They've been operating for 15 years. It's incredibly 0:13:02.730 --> 0:13:08.810 cost effective. It's incredibly, incredibly results effective. And it's been 0:13:08.809 --> 0:13:14.490 fully documented with lots and lots of data proving its efficacy. 0:13:14.809 --> 0:13:18.369 So we really hold that up as what every community 0:13:18.370 --> 0:13:21.770 can and should be doing. And the most important part, again, 0:13:21.809 --> 0:13:25.730 is to bring all of the sectors together. The biggest 0:13:25.730 --> 0:13:28.450 problem in the homeless industrial complex, and the reason we 0:13:28.450 --> 0:13:33.170 have so much dysfunction, is you have everybody operating in silos. 0:13:33.210 --> 0:13:36.280 You know, Nobody is talking to each other. Nobody is 0:13:36.280 --> 0:13:40.520 coordinating with one another. They're often working at cross purposes. 0:13:40.840 --> 0:13:43.160 And if you could just open up lines of communication, 0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:46.800 that gets a long way towards a solution. 0:13:47.320 --> 0:13:50.800 We'll continue with Mary Thoreau next. Her book is Beyond 0:13:50.800 --> 0:13:55.640 Homeless Good Intentions, Bad Outcomes, Transformative Solutions. If you haven't 0:13:55.640 --> 0:13:59.640 made plans for this weekend yet, well, now is the time, 0:13:59.640 --> 0:14:05.920 because revolutionary America is here this Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, 0:14:06.360 --> 0:14:10.600 May 31st. June 1st. June 2nd in theaters, go to 0:14:10.640 --> 0:14:17.720 hillsdale.edu/to find a local theater and get your tickets. This 0:14:17.720 --> 0:14:21.320 is a documentary experience from Hillsdale College that tells the 0:14:21.320 --> 0:14:25.120 true story of the American founding. Our ancestors risked it 0:14:25.120 --> 0:14:29.040 all their lives, their fortunes, their sacred honor, fighting for 0:14:29.040 --> 0:14:34.080 liberty in the American Revolution with 250 years on the line. 0:14:34.080 --> 0:14:39.000 Make sure you and your children know this story. Revolutionary 0:14:39.000 --> 0:14:42.760 America is in theaters May 31st. June 1st. June 2nd. 0:14:43.040 --> 0:14:51.760 hillsdale.edu/hillsdale.edu slash. To find a theater near you and get 0:14:51.760 --> 0:14:56.800 your tickets this weekend for Revolutionary America. We continue with 0:14:56.840 --> 0:15:00.680 Mary Thoreau, CEO of the Independent Institute. Her book, Beyond 0:15:00.680 --> 0:15:06.680 Homeless Good Intentions, Bad Outcomes, Transformative Solutions. Mary, you argue 0:15:06.680 --> 0:15:10.200 that these housing readiness programs, that the models help to 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:14.960 restore dignity and independence. You mentioned the fully functioning outside 0:15:14.960 --> 0:15:19.240 life after going through these programs. What does that look 0:15:19.240 --> 0:15:23.160 like in real life for someone coming out of homelessness 0:15:23.160 --> 0:15:25.480 after going through these programs? 0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:31.800 It looks like they have a life, you know very 0:15:31.800 --> 0:15:35.440 much as you and I have. They can maintain a home. 0:15:35.640 --> 0:15:40.080 They can establish healthy relationships. They. If they had a family, 0:15:40.080 --> 0:15:44.160 they can reunite with their family and go on to 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:48.720 restored life where they're employed, sober, if they have mental 0:15:48.720 --> 0:15:52.880 illness issues, those are stabilized and they can live with joy. 0:15:53.120 --> 0:15:57.720 And almost every community. Scott has a good program. I mean, 0:15:57.760 --> 0:16:02.840 there there are wonderful programs literally almost everywhere I've looked. 0:16:03.240 --> 0:16:05.720 The only issue is that most of them can only 0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:08.640 help a few people at a time. And we need 0:16:08.640 --> 0:16:12.760 solutions that scale. So that's why we argue for the 0:16:12.760 --> 0:16:16.320 Haven for Hope type of model, which addressed the issue 0:16:16.320 --> 0:16:20.160 on a whole community wide basis. But all of those 0:16:20.160 --> 0:16:26.480 smaller programs can can operate integrated with those and continue 0:16:26.480 --> 0:16:28.790 to operate. They don't have to feel threatened that, oh, 0:16:28.830 --> 0:16:32.190 that's an either or thing. They can be a part 0:16:32.190 --> 0:16:37.070 of the whole, the holistic community wide addressing of the issue. 0:16:37.110 --> 0:16:42.510 Now, Beyond homeless addresses accountability for all programs. That means 0:16:42.510 --> 0:16:45.630 we have to measure success. And there's a clear definition 0:16:45.630 --> 0:16:49.150 in the book. What do you consider success when we 0:16:49.150 --> 0:16:50.630 look at various programs? 0:16:50.830 --> 0:16:55.510 It's a very detailed definition, but in some it's you 0:16:55.550 --> 0:17:00.630 are free of substance use disorder, of addiction. Your mental 0:17:00.630 --> 0:17:04.030 illness has been addressed. You are able to hold a job. 0:17:04.030 --> 0:17:06.830 You were able to live independently. You were able to 0:17:06.869 --> 0:17:13.629 have healthy relationships. You know, private donors. I run a nonprofit. 0:17:13.950 --> 0:17:19.190 Our donors, you know, require very detailed reports on how 0:17:19.190 --> 0:17:22.790 we use their money and what outcomes we achieved with it. 0:17:22.830 --> 0:17:24.750 It's not good enough for us to go to them 0:17:24.750 --> 0:17:27.750 and say, oh, you know, we did really good things 0:17:27.750 --> 0:17:32.470 with it without any proof. And the problem with, you know, 0:17:32.510 --> 0:17:36.950 we've had so much crowding out of private philanthropy, especially 0:17:36.950 --> 0:17:40.629 in the homelessness area where years ago, a lot of 0:17:40.630 --> 0:17:44.030 private philanthropists just said, well, it's hopeless and throw up 0:17:44.030 --> 0:17:47.750 their hands because the government programs have been exacerbating it 0:17:47.750 --> 0:17:53.030 so much that it looked hopeless indeed. So mostly the 0:17:53.030 --> 0:17:58.270 funding currently comes from government and government. Bureaucrats do not 0:17:58.270 --> 0:18:02.350 demand accountability. They just throw the money out there. And 0:18:02.350 --> 0:18:05.030 as we know from public choice economics, if the problem 0:18:05.030 --> 0:18:08.470 gets worse, they're rewarded by getting bigger budgets and bigger 0:18:08.470 --> 0:18:11.230 staffs because, oh, now we've got a much worse problem. 0:18:11.230 --> 0:18:14.030 We have to we have to get more money. So 0:18:14.109 --> 0:18:16.629 it's a it's perverse incentives. As you know. 0:18:16.950 --> 0:18:19.670 Mary Thoreau with us, her book Beyond Homeless. This is 0:18:19.670 --> 0:18:24.109 an issue in which people have very emotional responses, pity, 0:18:24.390 --> 0:18:28.270 frustration or resignation that the problem isn't getting better. These 0:18:28.270 --> 0:18:31.310 emotional responses we feel when we when we see those 0:18:31.310 --> 0:18:35.909 experiencing homelessness. Have they shaped public policy here in the 0:18:35.910 --> 0:18:38.429 past couple of decades, and has it shaped it for 0:18:38.430 --> 0:18:39.189 the worse? 0:18:39.470 --> 0:18:42.990 You know, I was really surprised when we first did 0:18:43.030 --> 0:18:45.790 we did the documentary. We had a policy report the 0:18:45.790 --> 0:18:48.950 documentary was based on. Then we did the book and 0:18:48.950 --> 0:18:51.869 I was doing this was during Covid, and I was 0:18:51.910 --> 0:18:55.709 doing a lot of community screenings of our short documentary. 0:18:56.190 --> 0:18:59.470 And since it's 40, it's 38 minutes long, we would 0:18:59.470 --> 0:19:04.830 follow it with audience Q&A or audience discussion. And I did, 0:19:04.869 --> 0:19:08.590 I don't know, probably 50 of these in San Francisco 0:19:08.630 --> 0:19:13.270 with a wide variety of audiences. And I expected, especially 0:19:13.270 --> 0:19:16.310 since San Francisco had gotten so bad. You know, we 0:19:16.310 --> 0:19:20.830 had the poop app and we had we literally had 0:19:21.070 --> 0:19:25.750 horrible street conditions almost everywhere, because San Francisco is a 0:19:25.750 --> 0:19:30.750 very small city. Geography geographically. So there were terrible street 0:19:30.750 --> 0:19:34.630 conditions almost everywhere. And I kind of expected that people 0:19:34.630 --> 0:19:38.350 were going to be, you know, really disgusted and fed 0:19:38.390 --> 0:19:42.389 up and like and blaming the people living in the streets. And, 0:19:42.430 --> 0:19:45.270 you know, what do we do to, to get these 0:19:45.270 --> 0:19:49.710 out of here? But the reaction I heard most was compassion. 0:19:49.750 --> 0:19:54.949 I mean, deep compassion. People understood that they were passing 0:19:54.950 --> 0:19:59.669 people suffering, and nobody was helping them effectively. And they 0:19:59.710 --> 0:20:04.470 wanted solutions. So one reason our documentary was so incredible, 0:20:04.510 --> 0:20:09.190 it was greeted so incredibly enthusiastically is because it's the 0:20:09.190 --> 0:20:11.670 title is, you know, as the book and the documentary 0:20:11.710 --> 0:20:15.350 is Beyond Homeless Finding Hope. And it casts a vision 0:20:15.350 --> 0:20:17.990 that the way things are is not the way they 0:20:18.270 --> 0:20:22.620 have to be and that there are solutions and audiences 0:20:22.619 --> 0:20:25.820 got so excited about the oh my gosh, you mean 0:20:26.020 --> 0:20:29.580 there are solutions to this? Oh, how do I get involved? Oh, 0:20:29.740 --> 0:20:32.100 you know, what can we do in my neighborhood? Oh, 0:20:32.580 --> 0:20:36.379 you know, and so there was a lot of activism, 0:20:36.460 --> 0:20:40.740 street level activism, and people really pushed back against the 0:20:40.740 --> 0:20:46.140 status quo in San Francisco, formed, I don't know, countless 0:20:46.580 --> 0:20:51.900 new associations from, you know, grow San Francisco neighbors together, 0:20:51.900 --> 0:20:56.659 San Francisco, all kinds of things. And as a result, 0:20:56.980 --> 0:21:00.500 they pushed back against what the government policies were. They 0:21:00.500 --> 0:21:07.060 elected a very pragmatic, moderate mayor Dan Lurie, whose background 0:21:07.100 --> 0:21:09.940 was he's of the Levi Strauss fortune, but he's been 0:21:09.940 --> 0:21:13.340 doing mostly philanthropy in his life. And he just came 0:21:13.340 --> 0:21:16.899 in and has just known no nonsense and said he 0:21:16.900 --> 0:21:20.940 wants to turn San Francisco around and everybody was like, yes, yes. 0:21:21.420 --> 0:21:25.860 But closed down drug markets make open air drug use 0:21:26.100 --> 0:21:34.220 illegal again, and start offering a sober living solution residency 0:21:34.220 --> 0:21:40.860 program rather than just strictly these really dystopian housing first 0:21:41.100 --> 0:21:44.620 units that you wouldn't want to put your dog in 0:21:44.660 --> 0:21:48.220 kind of thing. So big changes going on here and 0:21:48.220 --> 0:21:50.899 it's very exciting. So when people do understand, you know, 0:21:50.940 --> 0:21:53.820 there are solutions, they want to get involved, they want 0:21:53.820 --> 0:21:56.500 to help the people they see that are suffering. They 0:21:56.500 --> 0:21:57.940 just haven't known how. 0:21:58.380 --> 0:22:02.260 Very through with us. Beyond Homeless is the book. What 0:22:02.300 --> 0:22:07.020 role can local communities play versus, say, the federal government? 0:22:07.020 --> 0:22:09.820 Is there a top down approach that works, or is 0:22:09.820 --> 0:22:12.060 it more bottom up, as we see with some local 0:22:12.060 --> 0:22:14.540 organizations like Haven for Hope in San Antonio? 0:22:14.700 --> 0:22:16.540 I really think it needs to be done on a 0:22:16.619 --> 0:22:21.060 community basis. And what people can do is start holding 0:22:21.420 --> 0:22:26.700 gatherings where they bring together, again, the all every sector 0:22:26.700 --> 0:22:29.420 in the community. You know, yes, people from the government, 0:22:29.580 --> 0:22:34.700 from the EMS and, and emergency response systems, people from 0:22:34.700 --> 0:22:39.700 the hospitals, the non-profit sector, very importantly, the business sector, 0:22:39.980 --> 0:22:44.060 volunteer organizations and so on. And just start having conversations 0:22:44.060 --> 0:22:47.860 about how can we combine, how can we how can 0:22:47.900 --> 0:22:53.060 we work together on an initiative that would more likely 0:22:53.060 --> 0:22:55.619 succeed than what we've been doing? That's what we've been 0:22:55.619 --> 0:23:00.900 doing here in San Francisco. We've been organizing convenings, and 0:23:01.020 --> 0:23:06.220 people are very interested in working together. There's some resistance, 0:23:06.220 --> 0:23:09.179 especially from the public sector and some of the nonprofits. 0:23:09.180 --> 0:23:11.260 They think, well, if I if we work together, we're 0:23:11.260 --> 0:23:13.820 going to lose our budget, we're going to lose our 0:23:13.820 --> 0:23:16.899 power and so on. But overall, we've been able to 0:23:16.940 --> 0:23:19.619 frame it as a very positive. Let's work together to 0:23:19.660 --> 0:23:22.300 identify a couple of, you know, let's just identify one 0:23:22.300 --> 0:23:25.540 thing we can work together on that would help improve 0:23:25.540 --> 0:23:28.500 the situation and then build from there. And people are 0:23:28.500 --> 0:23:31.660 quite open to it and interested when you ask them 0:23:31.660 --> 0:23:34.419 to help, they're willing and able to help. 0:23:34.700 --> 0:23:37.780 Mary Thoreau is chairman and chief executive officer of the 0:23:37.780 --> 0:23:42.060 Independent Institute. You can find more@independent.org. And the book is 0:23:42.060 --> 0:23:48.820 Beyond Homeless Good Intentions, Bad outcomes, Transformative Solutions. Mary, thanks 0:23:48.820 --> 0:23:51.260 so much for joining us here on the Radio Free 0:23:51.300 --> 0:23:52.340 Hillsdale Hour. 0:23:52.500 --> 0:23:54.900 Thank you. Scott, it's such a pleasure to talk with you. 0:23:54.940 --> 0:23:58.740 Up next, Doctor Marty Billman from Hillsdale's chemistry department is back. 0:23:58.780 --> 0:24:03.379 She'll give us the conclusion to her story about phlogiston theory, fire, 0:24:03.380 --> 0:24:07.700 and how combustion works. I'm Scott Bertram. This is the 0:24:07.700 --> 0:24:24.010 radio free Hillsdale Hour. Welcome back to the Radio free 0:24:24.050 --> 0:24:27.130 Hillsdale Hour. I'm Scott Bertram. Be sure to find more 0:24:27.130 --> 0:24:35.290 Hillsdale College audio on Hillsdale College Podcast Network. more@podcast.hillsdale.edu. We're 0:24:35.290 --> 0:24:38.210 joined by Doctor Marty Billman. She is associate professor of 0:24:38.210 --> 0:24:41.730 chemistry here at Hillsdale College. Doctor Billman, thanks for joining us. 0:24:41.770 --> 0:24:42.970 Yes. Thank you so much. 0:24:43.010 --> 0:24:47.210 We continue with our second part of the Discovery of Fire, 0:24:47.210 --> 0:24:50.930 part of our Drama in Scientific Discovery series that we've 0:24:50.930 --> 0:24:54.810 been talking about. Last time we talked about what is Fire, 0:24:54.810 --> 0:24:58.690 we talked about Boyle and Hooke and Phlogiston theory. It 0:24:58.690 --> 0:25:01.010 was a bad theory. That's sort of where we pick 0:25:01.010 --> 0:25:04.409 things up here in part two. So phlogiston theory is 0:25:04.450 --> 0:25:06.609 a bad theory. It will take a while for people 0:25:06.609 --> 0:25:10.610 to understand that. But what came next in the discovery 0:25:10.609 --> 0:25:14.370 of fire. Scientists wasted time and resources for a while now, 0:25:14.369 --> 0:25:16.090 just chasing a bad theory down. 0:25:16.090 --> 0:25:18.610 One might think that, but fortunately, good science can still 0:25:18.609 --> 0:25:21.170 happen with bad theories in the background. And of course, 0:25:21.170 --> 0:25:23.650 it's not to say that some resources weren't, you know, 0:25:23.690 --> 0:25:26.169 lost or stolen. It's trial. 0:25:26.170 --> 0:25:26.609 And error. 0:25:26.650 --> 0:25:30.930 Right? Yeah, exactly. So even though, yes, phlogiston theory was 0:25:30.930 --> 0:25:34.890 a bad theory. And if you missed part one, please 0:25:34.890 --> 0:25:37.650 go back and listen to part one. But phlogiston theory 0:25:37.650 --> 0:25:42.250 itself was not universally believed. So there were some good scientists, 0:25:42.290 --> 0:25:45.050 you know, working outside of that framework, like Joseph Black, 0:25:45.050 --> 0:25:47.810 one of the first who kind of started getting into 0:25:48.090 --> 0:25:51.570 some thermodynamics and, and stuff like that. But even within 0:25:51.570 --> 0:25:54.210 the wheelhouse of phlogiston theory, there were still some good, 0:25:54.250 --> 0:25:58.170 good scientists, right, who had their well intended. The folks 0:25:58.170 --> 0:26:01.810 were motivated to try again and kind of prove phlogiston theory, right, 0:26:01.810 --> 0:26:05.129 prove it superior to combustion theory, which is actually how 0:26:05.170 --> 0:26:10.010 fire works. So there was development for new glassware, new equipment. 0:26:10.130 --> 0:26:13.090 We were improving experimental design as time went on and 0:26:13.090 --> 0:26:18.010 our glassblowing prowess became, I mean, kind of top tier, 0:26:18.210 --> 0:26:20.689 especially if we're thinking this was not an industrial process. 0:26:20.690 --> 0:26:23.810 These were still people blowing glassware that we were getting 0:26:23.810 --> 0:26:27.770 more and more closed systems, more refined experimental setups. And 0:26:27.770 --> 0:26:29.649 so we were able to discover a great number of 0:26:29.650 --> 0:26:33.650 new gases, new elements, new compounds, of course. So there 0:26:33.650 --> 0:26:36.170 is good work being done in other avenues. It's just 0:26:36.170 --> 0:26:38.890 the answer of what is. Fire was kind of a 0:26:38.930 --> 0:26:40.050 tricky subject still. 0:26:40.490 --> 0:26:45.929 So who eventually disproves phlogiston theory to the satisfaction of most, 0:26:45.930 --> 0:26:46.730 if not all? 0:26:46.770 --> 0:26:50.050 Yes, there are two big names. These are the names 0:26:50.050 --> 0:26:52.729 that I'm most excited to talk about in this particular series, 0:26:52.730 --> 0:26:56.730 but ironically, the one who, at least I would say 0:26:56.770 --> 0:26:59.369 is the one who ended up kind of setting up 0:26:59.369 --> 0:27:02.970 the fall of Phlogiston theory, was one of its biggest proponents. 0:27:03.130 --> 0:27:06.130 His name was Joseph Priestley. He was not a very 0:27:06.130 --> 0:27:08.610 well educated man. He was one who did come from 0:27:08.650 --> 0:27:12.290 a slightly lower class background, but he knew the right people. 0:27:12.570 --> 0:27:14.730 And sometimes that's all you need to get into a 0:27:14.730 --> 0:27:18.570 new field. And so he loved to essentially just kind 0:27:18.570 --> 0:27:20.050 of mess around in the lab and see what he 0:27:20.050 --> 0:27:23.490 could find. And he did work alongside folks like Henry Cavendish, 0:27:23.490 --> 0:27:25.409 who ended up he was one of the aforementioned scientists 0:27:25.410 --> 0:27:27.650 who discovered a new element and kind of was working 0:27:27.650 --> 0:27:29.649 on setting up all those new types of glassware. And 0:27:29.650 --> 0:27:34.250 both of them were pro phlogiston theory. Joseph Priestley specifically 0:27:34.250 --> 0:27:36.170 being the one who was like, this is right at 0:27:36.170 --> 0:27:39.610 all costs, and I'm going to find a way to 0:27:39.650 --> 0:27:42.449 prove it, but kind of through again, I'm going to 0:27:42.450 --> 0:27:44.250 be a little cheeky here and say, through kind of 0:27:44.290 --> 0:27:50.010 dumb luck, he ended up stumbling upwards to the discovery 0:27:50.010 --> 0:27:51.050 of oxygen. 0:27:51.490 --> 0:27:53.970 That seems like a pretty big deal. So what did 0:27:53.970 --> 0:27:55.290 Joseph Priestley do? 0:27:55.330 --> 0:27:58.650 All right, so he again is attributed with the discovery 0:27:58.650 --> 0:28:01.609 of oxygen, even though he actually wasn't even the first 0:28:01.609 --> 0:28:04.889 to discover it. And I'm not even talking East versus 0:28:05.000 --> 0:28:07.359 Western world. I'm talking like there was a Swedish chemist 0:28:07.359 --> 0:28:09.560 by the name of Carl Scheele, who actually discovered it 0:28:09.600 --> 0:28:13.160 like four years prior, but hadn't published his work. So again, 0:28:13.160 --> 0:28:16.440 because he wasn't published, people didn't know and he didn't 0:28:16.440 --> 0:28:18.359 want to publish until he kind of figured out what 0:28:18.359 --> 0:28:21.280 he actually had found. So what, we're gonna put a 0:28:21.280 --> 0:28:25.080 pin in Carl Scheele because he, uh, again, didn't actually, uh, 0:28:25.280 --> 0:28:28.480 he's not involved with this direct, like competitive story. So, 0:28:28.600 --> 0:28:32.640 but again, Joseph Priestley attributed with discovery of oxygen, although 0:28:32.680 --> 0:28:35.840 it's not right, he, as said, stated he kind of 0:28:35.880 --> 0:28:38.280 was a man of dumb luck. He discovered oxygen on 0:28:38.280 --> 0:28:41.239 accident and he published his results in 1775. So we 0:28:41.240 --> 0:28:43.120 are in the 1700s now. So it's been kind of 0:28:43.120 --> 0:28:46.360 100 years since the, Robert says, had first proposed their 0:28:46.360 --> 0:28:51.640 theory of combustion, and he wasn't actually looking for anything specifically. 0:28:51.680 --> 0:28:54.320 He had been given some what now we would call 0:28:54.360 --> 0:28:57.640 mercury oxide. It's kind of a red powder. And he 0:28:57.640 --> 0:28:59.400 was not only given this, but a bunch of other 0:28:59.440 --> 0:29:02.040 kind of like calcified or as again, we would say nowadays, 0:29:02.080 --> 0:29:06.480 kind of ossified or oxidized materials. And he was like, well, 0:29:06.480 --> 0:29:10.800 what happens if I take this red powder and heat it? 0:29:10.840 --> 0:29:15.360 Not even in a sophisticated way, like with a magnifying glass, like, 0:29:15.400 --> 0:29:16.880 you know how kids take the magnifying glass? 0:29:16.920 --> 0:29:18.800 Yeah, I never did, but I understand. 0:29:18.840 --> 0:29:20.880 Yes, exactly. So that's what he did. He's like, I'm 0:29:20.880 --> 0:29:24.280 going to take this magnifying glass and refract the light 0:29:24.320 --> 0:29:26.920 to a pinpoint and burn this red powder and see 0:29:26.920 --> 0:29:30.800 what happens. Like there was no hypothesis, no rationale. And 0:29:30.800 --> 0:29:33.440 don't get me wrong, it's fun sometimes to mess around 0:29:33.440 --> 0:29:36.720 in the lab, but it's just such a like, right, 0:29:36.720 --> 0:29:39.200 a pivotal discovery. And he was just like, teehee, I'm 0:29:39.200 --> 0:29:42.920 having fun. So he then found this red powder kind 0:29:42.920 --> 0:29:46.440 of where the sunlight was being pinpointed and heating the 0:29:46.440 --> 0:29:50.800 powder started to turn back into liquid mercury. And since 0:29:50.960 --> 0:29:52.920 he was doing this reaction kind of in like an 0:29:52.920 --> 0:29:56.600 enclosed space, again, kind of a gift from Henry Cavendish, 0:29:56.960 --> 0:29:59.280 he found that there was a gas that was being 0:29:59.280 --> 0:30:02.200 released as this red powder was kind of turning back 0:30:02.200 --> 0:30:04.719 into Mercury. Well, he captured the gas because now we 0:30:04.720 --> 0:30:07.200 had the technology to do that and was like, well, 0:30:07.200 --> 0:30:09.520 let's characterize this gas and see what it is. And 0:30:09.520 --> 0:30:11.600 one of the means of characterization was seeing how well 0:30:11.640 --> 0:30:14.360 something burned. Mhm. And he did find that this gas 0:30:14.360 --> 0:30:18.000 caused the fire to burn way more brightly than what 0:30:18.000 --> 0:30:22.040 it had before. And so he was like, aha, this 0:30:22.040 --> 0:30:25.440 gas is not phlogiston again. That would be so nice 0:30:25.440 --> 0:30:27.320 if he came to that conclusion, because then the two 0:30:27.320 --> 0:30:29.600 theories would just kind of collapse into one. Right. But no, 0:30:29.600 --> 0:30:36.440 he called this dephlogisticated air because when it burned or 0:30:36.480 --> 0:30:38.920 when in the presence of fire, it was so ready 0:30:38.920 --> 0:30:41.760 to absorb the phlogiston, which again, according to him, the 0:30:41.760 --> 0:30:44.000 phlogiston was like the light and the heat and the 0:30:44.040 --> 0:30:47.080 kind of the essence of that fire, because fire got bigger. 0:30:47.080 --> 0:30:49.360 He was like, ah, this air must be empty of 0:30:49.360 --> 0:30:53.120 phlogiston and ready to receive more of it than regular air. 0:30:53.360 --> 0:30:57.320 How did this discovery, the discovery of oxygen, then lead 0:30:57.360 --> 0:30:59.990 to the downfall of phlogiston theory. 0:31:00.030 --> 0:31:03.750 Aha! So here's where our second player comes in. Another 0:31:03.750 --> 0:31:06.750 scientist who is a Frenchman, of which up until this point, 0:31:06.750 --> 0:31:09.950 really every scientist that I've named has been an Englishman 0:31:09.950 --> 0:31:12.830 taking research taking place in England. So now we have 0:31:12.830 --> 0:31:17.230 Antoine Lavoisier, a French chemist, coming into the picture. And 0:31:17.230 --> 0:31:20.390 I cannot emphasize this enough. Out of the gate, Priestley 0:31:20.390 --> 0:31:22.870 and Lavoisier grew to hate each other. 0:31:24.510 --> 0:31:25.790 Good scientific rivalry. 0:31:25.830 --> 0:31:28.150 Exactly. And it's like we have the Englishmen and the 0:31:28.150 --> 0:31:31.190 Frenchmen fighting each other and. Right. We we also kind 0:31:31.190 --> 0:31:34.910 of in the background have have a bunch of political 0:31:34.950 --> 0:31:38.510 turmoil that's that's going to be involved here. But what 0:31:38.550 --> 0:31:42.510 Lavoisier did and this I'll wrap this back around to Priestley. 0:31:42.510 --> 0:31:46.710 But what Lavoisier did is he himself was not any 0:31:46.710 --> 0:31:49.510 type of theoretician. He didn't put any new theories together. 0:31:49.910 --> 0:31:52.550 He also did not discover any new elements, nor did 0:31:52.550 --> 0:31:55.030 he set up any new or design, any new types 0:31:55.030 --> 0:31:59.830 of experimental glassware kind of designs. Rather, his mission was, 0:31:59.830 --> 0:32:02.870 I am going to take this new technology and go 0:32:02.910 --> 0:32:06.709 kind of back 100 years. And with this new technology, 0:32:06.710 --> 0:32:09.430 I'm going to recreate a bunch of old experiments and 0:32:09.430 --> 0:32:12.350 see if the old theory still, like stand to reason. 0:32:12.710 --> 0:32:15.390 He kind of went in assuming nothing and was like, 0:32:15.390 --> 0:32:20.190 I'm going to see experimentally what happens. So this meant 0:32:20.190 --> 0:32:24.190 that phlogiston theory was about to come under heavy scrutiny. 0:32:24.470 --> 0:32:27.670 But he, being Lavoisier, didn't go into all of this 0:32:27.670 --> 0:32:30.190 with like, I'm gonna take down phlogiston theory again. He 0:32:30.190 --> 0:32:34.190 kind of went in with no intentionally, intentionally, no preconceived 0:32:34.190 --> 0:32:36.229 notions on how these theories worked. And he wanted to 0:32:36.230 --> 0:32:38.950 see which ones were real and which ones weren't. So 0:32:39.350 --> 0:32:42.390 we're going to go back to prior to the rivalry. 0:32:42.510 --> 0:32:45.510 Priestley was actually a big fan of Lavoisier's work, and 0:32:45.550 --> 0:32:47.350 they were all kind of this is an era now 0:32:47.390 --> 0:32:51.070 of kind of increased publication, increased awareness, even across the channel. 0:32:51.070 --> 0:32:54.270 And so Priestley, you know, would send fan essentially what 0:32:54.270 --> 0:32:56.830 we call fan letters to Lavoisier like praising him for 0:32:56.830 --> 0:33:01.670 his publications. Lavoisier was nothing if not prolifically published. He, 0:33:01.710 --> 0:33:03.670 like almost every month, came out with some new type 0:33:03.710 --> 0:33:06.590 of article. And so Priestley was like, hey, can I 0:33:06.590 --> 0:33:10.470 come visit? We could share some of our ideas and, 0:33:10.470 --> 0:33:14.350 and see if we can't come to some greater, you know, understanding. 0:33:14.350 --> 0:33:17.110 And Priestley did go into this with the best of intentions, 0:33:17.350 --> 0:33:22.310 but again, kind of naive because Lavoisier was although yes, 0:33:22.350 --> 0:33:26.030 technically in standing a gentleman, he was not a gentleman's gentleman. 0:33:26.070 --> 0:33:26.510 Okay. 0:33:26.870 --> 0:33:31.870 So 1774, the two have a dinner party and naive 0:33:31.910 --> 0:33:36.350 Priestley shares. Oh, hey, I've discovered this new gas. I 0:33:36.390 --> 0:33:39.910 call it Dephlogisticated air. Here's all of the deets on 0:33:39.910 --> 0:33:42.670 how I set up the experiment, and it is reproducible. 0:33:42.670 --> 0:33:44.870 I've done this a couple of different times, you know, 0:33:44.910 --> 0:33:47.310 with more than just the magnifying glass. And it just 0:33:47.310 --> 0:33:49.870 seems like all you need is heat and you can 0:33:49.870 --> 0:33:52.990 get this gas. And Lavoisier was like, you don't say. 0:33:54.830 --> 0:33:59.430 So Lavoisier, after the party repeats the experiment, collects this 0:33:59.430 --> 0:34:03.230 mysterious gas, rigorously tests it not only to see does 0:34:03.230 --> 0:34:05.310 it cause the fire to burn brighter, but also. What 0:34:05.350 --> 0:34:10.230 types of properties does it have? And a few years later, 1777, 0:34:10.270 --> 0:34:14.469 Lavoisier publishes his New Theory of Combustion, which builds off 0:34:14.469 --> 0:34:17.870 of the Robert's original theory, and he states that flammable 0:34:17.870 --> 0:34:21.470 objects burn in the presence of this new gas that he, 0:34:21.670 --> 0:34:23.910 a couple of years later, would name oxygen. So he's 0:34:23.910 --> 0:34:26.710 also the one who named it oxygen. Gotcha. He then 0:34:26.950 --> 0:34:28.790 said there were a bunch of other details. He said, 0:34:28.790 --> 0:34:31.589 we have these two reactants going in again, some type 0:34:31.630 --> 0:34:34.069 of fuel and oxygen gas. And over the course of 0:34:34.110 --> 0:34:37.110 the years, at first he did discover carbon dioxide being produced. 0:34:37.110 --> 0:34:38.750 It took him a couple more years to realize that 0:34:38.750 --> 0:34:41.350 water is produced as well. He was the one who 0:34:41.350 --> 0:34:43.870 pinned down these reactants, these products, and he was like, hey, look, 0:34:43.910 --> 0:34:48.430 I don't need phlogiston to describe this at all. Sorry, guys. 0:34:48.469 --> 0:34:52.259 Phlogiston theory is not correct. And as he's publishing this, 0:34:52.260 --> 0:34:55.420 then of course it's like, well, what about priestly? Poor priestly? Well, 0:34:55.460 --> 0:34:58.580 priestly all the while not only is getting angry, but 0:34:58.580 --> 0:35:02.140 he's saying like, oh my, essentially modern language, my intellectual 0:35:02.140 --> 0:35:05.620 property has been stolen and my philosophy is being ridiculed. 0:35:05.700 --> 0:35:07.259 And we kind of have to remember this is an 0:35:07.260 --> 0:35:12.180 era as well where there were no, especially in like England, France, 1700s, 0:35:12.219 --> 0:35:14.339 it wouldn't be another like 50 or so years at 0:35:14.380 --> 0:35:18.580 least before, like intellectual property or copyright law would actually 0:35:18.580 --> 0:35:21.900 come into play. So Lavoisier was legally complete with within 0:35:21.900 --> 0:35:23.860 his right to do what he did, but he was 0:35:23.860 --> 0:35:25.100 kind of a jerk about it. 0:35:25.980 --> 0:35:28.860 So how did priestly retaliate for this action? 0:35:28.940 --> 0:35:33.060 Yeah. So he, he continued to loudly proclaim, despite this 0:35:33.100 --> 0:35:36.580 mounting evidence over the next ten, 20 years against him, 0:35:36.580 --> 0:35:40.180 that phlogiston theory is correct. Lavoisier is just doing it wrong. 0:35:40.180 --> 0:35:44.460 He's missing something, however, and kind of unfortunately, this is 0:35:44.460 --> 0:35:47.219 where both men are kind of caught up with like 0:35:47.219 --> 0:35:49.340 the world that they live in. This is, as I 0:35:49.380 --> 0:35:53.379 had stated, an era of extreme political and social upheaval, 0:35:53.580 --> 0:35:56.940 and we would normally associate this with American Revolution America, 0:35:57.219 --> 0:35:58.859 because again, the the year right now is like kind 0:35:58.860 --> 0:36:01.180 of around 1777 is the last date that I had stated. 0:36:01.180 --> 0:36:03.339 So America is a thing now. Hooray! Right. The French 0:36:03.340 --> 0:36:07.180 Revolution is happening. Oh, no. And well, Priestley is an Englishman, 0:36:07.180 --> 0:36:10.620 so surely he can't be in any danger. But unfortunately, 0:36:10.860 --> 0:36:14.860 you know, the political upheaval and tumultuousness kind of spanned 0:36:15.340 --> 0:36:19.540 everywhere in Europe at the time. And Priestley, although did 0:36:19.540 --> 0:36:22.259 have some friends in the scientific community, was somewhat of 0:36:22.260 --> 0:36:26.460 a social contrarian. He did not, you know, subscribe to 0:36:26.500 --> 0:36:29.460 the most popular church at the time. He his political 0:36:29.460 --> 0:36:32.660 opinions were very contrarian as well. And so he didn't 0:36:32.660 --> 0:36:36.739 make a lot of friends. By 1794, he did have 0:36:36.739 --> 0:36:40.259 to flee the country. He was not only harassed, it 0:36:40.260 --> 0:36:42.580 started with like minor vandalism of his house, but it 0:36:42.580 --> 0:36:45.540 did get to the point where, like his house was 0:36:45.540 --> 0:36:48.660 raided by a couple of the local, like, common people 0:36:48.660 --> 0:36:50.860 in the village he lived in, and he needed to flee, 0:36:50.860 --> 0:36:52.940 to go like hang out with his sons in like 0:36:52.980 --> 0:36:55.300 a completely different village to just get away from this. 0:36:55.300 --> 0:36:57.859 So eventually, though, his, his family had kind of piece 0:36:57.860 --> 0:37:00.819 by piece, been moving to America and he joined his 0:37:00.820 --> 0:37:04.620 sons in America. Mhm. But even towards the end, you know, 0:37:04.660 --> 0:37:07.740 he was still trying to publish these pro phlogiston ideas. 0:37:07.739 --> 0:37:10.660 But now he's across the world, you know. Yes. There's 0:37:10.660 --> 0:37:12.180 a great quote kind of towards the end of his 0:37:12.180 --> 0:37:15.140 life that, uh, that was dated to around 1800. And 0:37:15.140 --> 0:37:17.580 he says, I feel perfectly confident on the ground that 0:37:17.580 --> 0:37:21.660 I stand upon, though nearly alone. I am under no 0:37:21.700 --> 0:37:23.140 apprehension of defeat. 0:37:24.620 --> 0:37:28.300 Okay. And what about Antoine Lavoisier? What happens with him? 0:37:28.340 --> 0:37:29.060 All right, well. 0:37:29.620 --> 0:37:31.259 He's the guy who discovered oxygen. 0:37:31.380 --> 0:37:31.580 Yeah. 0:37:31.620 --> 0:37:32.980 He named it at least, right? 0:37:33.260 --> 0:37:36.300 That's right. He did also try and claim discovery of oxygen. 0:37:36.300 --> 0:37:39.140 But then, of course, Priestley was like, well, no, I 0:37:39.300 --> 0:37:41.180 actually have some publications. Right. So there was a lot 0:37:41.180 --> 0:37:44.470 of contention there. But essentially within the, again, 10 to 0:37:44.469 --> 0:37:48.540 20 years that our post? His publication of The Theory 0:37:48.540 --> 0:37:52.580 of Combustion. He did continue to publish more and more works. However, 0:37:52.580 --> 0:37:56.580 they became increasingly kind of pointed at his scientific rivals. 0:37:57.060 --> 0:38:00.219 He stole experiments from not just Priestley, but a number 0:38:00.219 --> 0:38:02.739 of other folks. And so whereas at least Priestley had 0:38:02.739 --> 0:38:07.020 friends within the scientific community, Lavoisier had none. And it 0:38:07.020 --> 0:38:09.180 did get to the point where he, in his publications, 0:38:09.180 --> 0:38:12.419 were starting to call anyone who disagreed with him despite. Right. 0:38:12.460 --> 0:38:14.060 Because he's like, look at all of this evidence I'm 0:38:14.060 --> 0:38:16.220 giving you guys and you still disagree with me. You're idiots. 0:38:16.260 --> 0:38:19.899 All of you are idiots. And so although yes, his 0:38:19.900 --> 0:38:24.580 theories and interpretations are chemically correct, he was not a 0:38:24.580 --> 0:38:28.259 very great guy. On record. He, uh, not just in 0:38:28.260 --> 0:38:30.980 his publications, but kind of interpersonally with other folks who 0:38:30.980 --> 0:38:32.379 barely tolerated him. 0:38:32.460 --> 0:38:32.940 Mhm. 0:38:33.060 --> 0:38:34.899 He is. He's known to have stated that there's only 0:38:34.900 --> 0:38:37.339 one person he believed to have been as smart as him, 0:38:37.340 --> 0:38:38.300 and that was his wife. 0:38:39.420 --> 0:38:41.660 Well, he really was smart if he said that. 0:38:41.700 --> 0:38:45.170 That's right. And he did have a couple of of 0:38:45.410 --> 0:38:49.250 allies in the scientific community, but ultimately it was not 0:38:49.250 --> 0:38:55.290 enough to save him from the guillotine. So by 1793, 0:38:55.330 --> 0:38:58.450 he was arrested for being a member of the bourgeoisie. 0:38:58.890 --> 0:39:00.810 And because not only was he a scientist, he also 0:39:00.810 --> 0:39:03.810 was a tax collector. He owned tobacco fields. He he 0:39:03.810 --> 0:39:06.290 was a member of the aristocracy in the truest sense. 0:39:06.290 --> 0:39:11.370 So by 1794, he was beheaded. Having said that, it's 0:39:11.370 --> 0:39:15.490 not like, again, we don't have his publications. And in 1789, 0:39:15.489 --> 0:39:18.169 only a few years before he was beheaded, he had 0:39:18.170 --> 0:39:21.530 published what is regarded to be the first modern chemistry 0:39:21.530 --> 0:39:24.089 textbook where a lot of our ideas actually still kind 0:39:24.090 --> 0:39:26.489 of go back to today. And if it weren't for 0:39:26.530 --> 0:39:28.370 the fact, again, because this was France and a lot 0:39:28.370 --> 0:39:33.969 of the French, uh, kind of the educated notions, how 0:39:33.969 --> 0:39:37.970 do I say this? The materials, um, the actual intellectual materials. 0:39:37.969 --> 0:39:40.850 There we go. Okay, so the intellectual materials from the 0:39:40.890 --> 0:39:44.810 aristocracy were burned in a lot of the cases. But fortunately, 0:39:44.810 --> 0:39:47.450 as Lavoisier was kind of correct, that his wife was 0:39:47.450 --> 0:39:51.370 pretty sharp, she was trilingual, as many of the ladies 0:39:51.370 --> 0:39:54.010 of the era were, and she took his textbook and 0:39:54.010 --> 0:39:57.969 translated it to both English and German. And she was 0:39:57.969 --> 0:40:02.209 not beheaded, fortunately, and was able to continue publishing this 0:40:02.210 --> 0:40:04.850 textbook in all three countries long after his death. 0:40:04.890 --> 0:40:07.930 As we wrap up here on the discovery of fire, 0:40:07.969 --> 0:40:13.049 maybe we can explain what the benefit was with our 0:40:13.050 --> 0:40:16.690 new understanding of how combustion works. Where do we go 0:40:16.730 --> 0:40:17.290 with that? 0:40:17.330 --> 0:40:20.730 Yeah. So now that we actually know. Right. Again, because 0:40:20.730 --> 0:40:25.130 this textbook was now widely circulated, phlogiston theory rapidly fell off. 0:40:25.290 --> 0:40:31.010 It wasn't formally, you know, disproven until around the mid 1800s. Um, 0:40:31.090 --> 0:40:32.890 but it was kind of on its last legs. You know, 0:40:32.930 --> 0:40:36.010 not many proponents left kind of in its death throes, 0:40:36.010 --> 0:40:38.010 if you will. So now that we have this new 0:40:38.010 --> 0:40:41.489 understanding for how combustion works, how it's really helped us 0:40:41.530 --> 0:40:43.969 kind of from that point moving forward has been now 0:40:43.969 --> 0:40:47.410 we know, okay, we have kind of two primary reactants, 0:40:47.410 --> 0:40:50.170 we have the fuel and we have oxygen gas, and 0:40:50.170 --> 0:40:51.690 we know what our products are. So we know what 0:40:51.690 --> 0:40:54.730 our waste products are. And from this, we have been 0:40:54.730 --> 0:40:56.930 able to say, okay, well, let's, let's, let's set up 0:40:56.930 --> 0:40:59.170 this kind of experiment. And if I want to make 0:40:59.210 --> 0:41:02.250 sure that I have, you know, this magnitude of heat released, 0:41:02.250 --> 0:41:04.730 I know exactly how much fuel I need because we 0:41:04.730 --> 0:41:09.410 know in exactly what proportions, uh, via a chemical reaction, 0:41:09.690 --> 0:41:12.969 this can take place. Right? One of the other kind 0:41:12.969 --> 0:41:15.330 of results of this law of combustion is now we 0:41:15.330 --> 0:41:20.250 also have the law of conservation of mass. And so. Right. 0:41:20.250 --> 0:41:22.210 Because if we know the species going in and the 0:41:22.210 --> 0:41:24.290 species going out and fire is nothing more than kind 0:41:24.290 --> 0:41:27.410 of a visual and energetic byproduct, we also have an 0:41:27.410 --> 0:41:29.930 exact idea, not just a hypothetical exact idea of how 0:41:29.930 --> 0:41:32.089 much material we need. So like, let's say we want 0:41:32.090 --> 0:41:35.609 to do something like escape Earth's gravity and get to 0:41:35.650 --> 0:41:38.090 the moon, right? Well, how much fuel do we actually 0:41:38.090 --> 0:41:40.410 need to do that? We can calculate that on pen 0:41:40.410 --> 0:41:43.450 and paper without having to run a series of experiments 0:41:43.450 --> 0:41:46.450 with increasing amounts and wasting a bunch of material. So 0:41:46.450 --> 0:41:50.330 that's one really awesome thing. Um, but also kind of 0:41:50.370 --> 0:41:53.370 because of the conservation of mass, right? And that not 0:41:53.370 --> 0:41:57.009 only applies to combustion, but every chemical reaction. Well, now 0:41:57.010 --> 0:41:59.810 we are able to like kind of, again in advance, 0:41:59.850 --> 0:42:01.770 kind of predict, well, how much do I need of 0:42:01.770 --> 0:42:03.730 this chemical material in order to make a certain amount 0:42:03.730 --> 0:42:06.609 of product? So in this era of the turn of 0:42:06.610 --> 0:42:09.129 the century, we're getting to the 1800s. Now what's around 0:42:09.130 --> 0:42:12.490 the corner? Industrial revolution, right? And so now we're able 0:42:12.489 --> 0:42:14.049 to kind of set up in the lab. Well, if 0:42:14.050 --> 0:42:16.009 I want to make a certain pharmaceutical, if I want 0:42:16.010 --> 0:42:18.330 to synthesize a certain amount of dye, if I want 0:42:18.330 --> 0:42:21.890 to make some type of explosive material, I know exactly 0:42:21.890 --> 0:42:25.049 how much reactant I need in order to make that 0:42:25.050 --> 0:42:27.170 certain amount of product. And of course, that byproduct, if 0:42:27.170 --> 0:42:30.250 we want something like explosion, we we know exactly how 0:42:30.250 --> 0:42:31.730 much stuff we need to get that. 0:42:31.930 --> 0:42:36.799 Doctor Marty Billman is associate professor of chemistry at Hillsdale College. 0:42:37.040 --> 0:42:42.319 Our Drama in Scientific Discovery series on the discovery of fire. 0:42:42.520 --> 0:42:44.600 Doctor Billman, thanks so much for joining us here on 0:42:44.640 --> 0:42:46.600 the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. 0:42:46.640 --> 0:42:48.760 Yes. Thank you so much, Scott, and thank you, listeners. 0:42:48.760 --> 0:42:50.320 I hope to come back again. 0:42:51.120 --> 0:42:54.160 That will wrap up this edition of the Radio Free 0:42:54.200 --> 0:42:57.280 Hillsdale Hour. Our thanks to Mary Thoreau from the Independent 0:42:57.280 --> 0:43:02.040 Institute and Doctor Marty Billman from Hillsdale Chemistry Department. Remember, 0:43:02.040 --> 0:43:04.960 you can hear new episodes every week on this station. 0:43:04.960 --> 0:43:08.120 You also can find extended versions of some of our interviews, 0:43:08.120 --> 0:43:14.160 or listen any time to the podcast. Find it@podcasts.hillsdale.edu or 0:43:14.160 --> 0:43:18.960 wherever you get your audio. Until next week, I'm Scott Bertram, 0:43:18.960 --> 0:43:22.680 and this has been the radio free Hillsdale Hour.