WEBVTT - Life in the Reagan Administration 0:00:06.600 --> 0:00:11.320 From the historic campus of Hillsdale College in Hillsdale, Michigan, 0:00:11.320 --> 0:00:15.120 where the good, the true and the beautiful are taught, 0:00:15.160 --> 0:00:19.920 nurtured and honored. This is the radio free Hillsdale Hour, 0:00:19.960 --> 0:00:23.880 bringing the activity and education of the college to listeners 0:00:23.880 --> 0:00:25.280 across the country. 0:00:25.560 --> 0:00:29.760 He was the most congenial man, but also a man 0:00:29.760 --> 0:00:33.839 of firm convictions. And I think that amazed the press. 0:00:33.840 --> 0:00:37.760 Their feeling was that a man who was that congenial 0:00:38.000 --> 0:00:40.720 wouldn't be tough. He was tough. 0:00:40.960 --> 0:00:44.560 This is your host, Scott Bertram. Welcome to the Radio 0:00:44.560 --> 0:00:49.440 Free Hillsdale Hour. Part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. 0:00:49.640 --> 0:00:53.600 That was Don Hodel, former secretary of energy and secretary 0:00:53.600 --> 0:00:56.840 of the interior under President Ronald Reagan. He has a 0:00:56.840 --> 0:01:00.350 new memoir called Called to Serve. We'll talk in depth 0:01:00.350 --> 0:01:02.950 with Don in just a little bit. And later in 0:01:02.950 --> 0:01:07.030 today's program, Doctor Stephanie Laubach from Hillsdale's physics Department tells 0:01:07.030 --> 0:01:12.550 us about nanotechnology and magnetism. First, we're joined now by 0:01:12.590 --> 0:01:16.190 Don Hodel. He is a former secretary of energy and 0:01:16.190 --> 0:01:19.990 former secretary of the interior in the Reagan administration, also 0:01:19.990 --> 0:01:23.390 served in leadership in the Christian Coalition and focus on 0:01:23.390 --> 0:01:26.509 the family, among other things. Throughout his long and distinguished career, 0:01:26.510 --> 0:01:29.470 he has a new memoir out. It's called called To 0:01:29.510 --> 0:01:33.990 Serve My Path to President Reagan's Cabinet and Beyond. Don, 0:01:33.990 --> 0:01:35.350 thanks so much for joining us. 0:01:35.590 --> 0:01:37.870 It's my pleasure. Thanks, Scott. 0:01:37.910 --> 0:01:41.990 You serve as secretary of the Interior of Energy, Undersecretary 0:01:41.990 --> 0:01:46.230 of interior. I mentioned your leadership roles elsewhere throughout your life. 0:01:46.430 --> 0:01:48.670 You say early in the book that you always felt 0:01:48.870 --> 0:01:52.470 led to take on new assignments, new challenges from time 0:01:52.470 --> 0:01:56.190 to time throughout your life. Our leaders like you born 0:01:56.190 --> 0:01:58.900 that way. Do you feel like you were always supposed 0:01:58.900 --> 0:02:02.140 to be in that sort of position inside whatever environment 0:02:02.140 --> 0:02:02.820 you were in. 0:02:03.260 --> 0:02:06.140 You know, Scott, I really don't know. But as I 0:02:06.180 --> 0:02:10.500 wrote this book, I realized that in my life I 0:02:10.540 --> 0:02:15.619 had not sought these positions over and over. Positions seemed 0:02:15.620 --> 0:02:24.579 to seek me, and I responded positively on most occasions. 0:02:24.620 --> 0:02:28.060 Occasionally I felt I was not called to do something, 0:02:28.900 --> 0:02:33.380 but most of the time I didn't seek the position. 0:02:33.380 --> 0:02:37.859 But when it came knocking, I rose to the challenge. 0:02:38.419 --> 0:02:43.260 You also describe your leadership style as collegial. How would 0:02:43.260 --> 0:02:45.940 you describe that for the audience, and how does that 0:02:45.940 --> 0:02:49.660 perhaps contrast to other types of styles that you served 0:02:49.660 --> 0:02:51.100 under during your life? 0:02:51.620 --> 0:02:54.180 Well, it was interesting. Again, as I wrote the book, 0:02:54.220 --> 0:02:59.490 something came rather sharply into focus, which was that my 0:02:59.530 --> 0:03:04.290 preferred role was as the assistant or the number two 0:03:04.330 --> 0:03:09.730 man to a decisive leader. So I had the experience 0:03:09.930 --> 0:03:12.770 several times in my life in the legal department at 0:03:12.770 --> 0:03:17.250 Georgia Pacific and again at Bonneville Power Administration, and again 0:03:17.250 --> 0:03:22.769 with Jim Watt at the interior. And President Reagan to 0:03:22.810 --> 0:03:28.649 serve decisive leaders, people who seemed to know what they 0:03:28.650 --> 0:03:34.329 wanted to do instinctively. And they they made that decision decisively. 0:03:34.690 --> 0:03:39.850 My approach to a decision when I became the number 0:03:39.850 --> 0:03:42.570 one man, when I became the secretary or the head 0:03:42.570 --> 0:03:47.570 of the Bonneville Power Administration, or president of Christian Coalition 0:03:47.570 --> 0:03:51.530 or president of focus on the family, my approach was 0:03:51.530 --> 0:03:56.650 to bring in the key people involved in that matter 0:03:57.050 --> 0:04:01.770 and discuss with them what our objective was, what our 0:04:01.770 --> 0:04:09.810 alternatives were, and glean from that process a consensus decision 0:04:09.810 --> 0:04:13.010 as to what we ought to do. And that was 0:04:13.010 --> 0:04:16.770 much more gratifying and effective for me than trying to 0:04:16.810 --> 0:04:19.930 make a decision on my own part, and then just 0:04:19.930 --> 0:04:21.930 tell people what they should do. 0:04:22.290 --> 0:04:25.010 Don Hodel with us. His book is called To Serve 0:04:25.010 --> 0:04:29.130 My Path to President Reagan's Cabinet and Beyond. We'll take 0:04:29.170 --> 0:04:32.490 a few stops along your long career. I want to 0:04:32.490 --> 0:04:37.650 start back in the late 1960s and your career in politics, 0:04:37.650 --> 0:04:42.050 when it started working in 1968 for Oregon, Reagan for president, 0:04:42.050 --> 0:04:45.810 and being involved in the Reagan campaign at that time. 0:04:45.930 --> 0:04:50.490 What was politics like in the late 1960s, and how 0:04:50.490 --> 0:04:54.089 did you find yourself attracted to a candidate like Reagan 0:04:54.089 --> 0:04:55.159 in 68. 0:04:55.480 --> 0:04:59.640 Well, my as I relate in the book, I think 0:04:59.640 --> 0:05:03.680 my interest in politics was triggered partly because my father 0:05:03.680 --> 0:05:07.279 was impressed when I was age five at having met 0:05:07.320 --> 0:05:14.920 a state representative and I followed politics. Read about it, 0:05:14.920 --> 0:05:19.359 listened to it, and was active in college in the 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:27.119 Young Republicans. And, uh, at that time in Oregon in 1964, 0:05:27.120 --> 0:05:32.960 we went through a very hostile campaign in the Republican 0:05:32.960 --> 0:05:39.800 primary for president between Barry Goldwater and Nelson Rockefeller. And 0:05:40.000 --> 0:05:44.520 my goal was to try to fill precincts at a 0:05:44.520 --> 0:05:50.280 time when people were polarized, which is akin to what 0:05:50.279 --> 0:05:53.590 we see today. But it was within the party. 0:05:53.670 --> 0:05:54.110 Mhm. 0:05:54.470 --> 0:05:59.510 Very disruptive. A disagreement between them. And I found myself 0:05:59.510 --> 0:06:02.870 having to play the role of a peacemaker. And it 0:06:02.870 --> 0:06:06.630 was only marginally successful in in doing that. 0:06:07.910 --> 0:06:11.150 You go on to work for the Bonneville Power Administration, 0:06:11.150 --> 0:06:16.029 and as part of that position, end up testifying in Washington, D.C., 0:06:16.070 --> 0:06:20.390 in front of congressmen and senators and inside call to serve. 0:06:20.430 --> 0:06:23.430 You say you learned that however thin your knowledge of 0:06:23.430 --> 0:06:26.870 the subject matter might be, you almost always knew more 0:06:27.350 --> 0:06:32.510 than the senators or representatives asking questions. Do you think, 0:06:32.550 --> 0:06:35.710 or at least feel that's still likely the same case 0:06:35.710 --> 0:06:38.589 today in our politics? Is it something that we should 0:06:38.589 --> 0:06:39.990 be concerned about? 0:06:40.510 --> 0:06:42.950 I don't think it's something we should be concerned about. 0:06:42.990 --> 0:06:46.070 I think it's a very natural aspect of the process. 0:06:46.550 --> 0:06:49.790 The congressman or the senator has before him one of 0:06:49.790 --> 0:06:54.060 many agencies that may report to his committee. His knowledge 0:06:54.060 --> 0:06:58.740 is going to be relatively superficial, except in special cases. 0:06:59.180 --> 0:07:04.380 Staff may have deeper knowledge, but the person from the organization, 0:07:04.380 --> 0:07:08.460 the agency that's testifying to him, ought to have a 0:07:08.460 --> 0:07:12.780 great deal more knowledge about the agency because he's working 0:07:12.780 --> 0:07:16.100 in that one agency. So I think that's a very 0:07:16.100 --> 0:07:20.060 natural accompaniment to the system that we have. 0:07:20.540 --> 0:07:23.220 Don Hodel with us, his book called To Serve My 0:07:23.220 --> 0:07:27.100 Path to President Reagan's Cabinet and Beyond. You're at Bonneville 0:07:27.100 --> 0:07:31.980 Power Administration through the end of 1977, and we perhaps 0:07:31.980 --> 0:07:35.820 pick things back up with the beginning of Reagan's first term, 0:07:35.820 --> 0:07:39.420 when you are serving as the undersecretary of the interior, 0:07:39.420 --> 0:07:43.580 eventually you'd be secretary of energy, eventually secretary of the interior. 0:07:43.780 --> 0:07:48.420 How does one become a cabinet secretary or a cabinet undersecretary? 0:07:48.460 --> 0:07:49.700 What is that process like? 0:07:51.610 --> 0:07:56.410 Scott. There are as many paths to a cabinet position 0:07:56.410 --> 0:08:02.330 as there are positions. Some people have excellent personal relationships 0:08:02.330 --> 0:08:06.489 with the president, and he turns to them for the 0:08:06.490 --> 0:08:10.410 expertise that he knows they have. Other people are well 0:08:10.450 --> 0:08:17.530 connected with key senators or congressmen who push for their nomination. Others, 0:08:18.410 --> 0:08:22.850 as in my case, I was known to somebody that 0:08:22.850 --> 0:08:30.330 President Reagan trusted and relied upon for an for recommendation 0:08:30.330 --> 0:08:34.850 for the Secretary of Energy's job, gained my position as 0:08:34.850 --> 0:08:38.890 the number two man, the undersecretary of interior, because years 0:08:38.890 --> 0:08:42.490 earlier I had worked with Jim. What we had become 0:08:42.530 --> 0:08:47.210 close personal friends, had great respect for each other's abilities, 0:08:47.210 --> 0:08:50.800 and he recognized that I had management skills that would 0:08:50.800 --> 0:08:54.479 be very helpful to him as secretary. So he pressed 0:08:54.520 --> 0:08:58.319 to have me become his undersecretary, even though that was 0:08:58.320 --> 0:09:04.080 not one of my aspirations. So my path to being his, 0:09:04.520 --> 0:09:09.080 his undersecretary, was because of our experience. My path to 0:09:09.120 --> 0:09:13.200 being Secretary of Energy was because I had met and 0:09:13.200 --> 0:09:17.400 worked with a man named Tom Reed when he was 0:09:17.520 --> 0:09:23.000 running the Reagan campaign for president in 1968, and I 0:09:23.000 --> 0:09:25.120 ran the campaign for him in Oregon. 0:09:25.640 --> 0:09:27.679 I want to ask a number of questions about this 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:31.240 particular time in in the book. And I want to start, 0:09:31.240 --> 0:09:33.800 I guess, with with Jim Watt, who you knew very 0:09:33.800 --> 0:09:37.560 well and served under and with throughout your career in 0:09:37.600 --> 0:09:41.560 a couple of places. And the Reagan administration. And what 0:09:41.600 --> 0:09:46.400 specifically had a reputation was criticized in the media during 0:09:46.400 --> 0:09:50.630 this time for not supporting the environment. And you were 0:09:50.630 --> 0:09:54.510 there with him along the way. What was wrong about 0:09:54.510 --> 0:09:58.750 that characterization of Jim Watt and the Interior Department at 0:09:58.830 --> 0:10:04.950 that time, and how did you consider environmental questions during 0:10:04.950 --> 0:10:06.470 that time in the Reagan administration? 0:10:07.070 --> 0:10:14.270 Very interesting question, because under Jimmy Carter, the Secretary of Interior, 0:10:14.390 --> 0:10:20.390 Cecil Andrus, announced publicly that whenever the environment, as it 0:10:20.429 --> 0:10:25.390 was involved in an issue, the environment. One period, end 0:10:25.390 --> 0:10:30.950 of discussion. And we came in with an absolutely different attitude, 0:10:30.950 --> 0:10:35.589 which was that environment was one of the many important 0:10:35.590 --> 0:10:39.630 things that needed to be considered. But we really believed 0:10:40.110 --> 0:10:44.030 that a balanced approach made great sense and that we 0:10:44.030 --> 0:10:48.709 did not have to choose between an improving environment and 0:10:48.710 --> 0:10:53.030 an adequate economy in this country. But it meant making 0:10:53.190 --> 0:11:00.030 decisions from time to time, specifically on what environmental matters 0:11:00.030 --> 0:11:04.590 had to be protected and what non-environmental matters needed to 0:11:04.590 --> 0:11:09.670 be protected or advanced. By the time we left Washington, 0:11:09.670 --> 0:11:13.230 I was pleased to see that even the Democratic National 0:11:13.230 --> 0:11:17.750 Convention recognized that we did not have to choose between 0:11:17.750 --> 0:11:23.030 the environment and economics. So we were successful to that extent. 0:11:23.270 --> 0:11:30.750 But the single issue environmental approach was in the Carter administration. 0:11:30.750 --> 0:11:35.270 And after the Reagan administration, it began to show up 0:11:35.309 --> 0:11:37.709 again in the national process. 0:11:37.910 --> 0:11:41.550 That's Don Hodel, former secretary of the interior and secretary 0:11:41.550 --> 0:11:44.910 of energy under President Ronald Reagan, will continue with his 0:11:44.910 --> 0:11:47.339 story in just a moment. First, I want to remind 0:11:47.340 --> 0:11:52.059 you about the new Hillsdale College online course on The Odyssey. 0:11:52.340 --> 0:12:01.500 Find it at hillsdale.edu/new course NEWCOURSE. Maybe you've already seen 0:12:01.500 --> 0:12:04.460 the new adaptation of The Odyssey in theaters, or you're 0:12:04.460 --> 0:12:07.220 planning to see it. It's even better to read it. 0:12:07.220 --> 0:12:10.859 In the words of Homer, the father of Western literature, 0:12:11.059 --> 0:12:14.260 Homer's epic poems like The Odyssey look at the noblest 0:12:14.260 --> 0:12:18.140 ways of life for man. The Odyssey itself contains themes 0:12:18.140 --> 0:12:24.380 about love, marriage, fatherhood, kingship, duty, loyalty. Now's the best 0:12:24.380 --> 0:12:28.140 time for you to learn more and to read The Odyssey, 0:12:28.140 --> 0:12:32.099 along with Doctor Ben Whalen, your teacher for this course, 0:12:32.140 --> 0:12:44.530 The Odyssey, right now at hillsdale.edu/course. hillsdale.edu/ewcourse for the Odyssey. 0:12:45.410 --> 0:12:48.970 We continue with Don Hodel, former secretary of the interior 0:12:48.970 --> 0:12:52.410 and secretary of energy under Ronald Reagan. His memoir is 0:12:52.410 --> 0:12:57.850 called To Serve My Path to President Reagan's Cabinet and Beyond. Don, 0:12:57.850 --> 0:13:02.290 we had just talked about Jim Watts and some misrepresentations, 0:13:02.290 --> 0:13:05.930 misunderstandings about him and how he ran the department. I've 0:13:05.929 --> 0:13:10.410 got to ask about the Beach Boys. I'm a music 0:13:10.410 --> 0:13:14.090 fan and a great music lover, and it's, of course, 0:13:14.090 --> 0:13:17.130 a story that music lovers know or think they know. 0:13:17.130 --> 0:13:20.010 And even those who aren't perhaps know the story about 0:13:20.010 --> 0:13:22.810 the Beach Boys and the 4th of July shows in 0:13:22.809 --> 0:13:26.530 the early 1980s. And the story goes that Jim. What 0:13:26.570 --> 0:13:30.530 the Interior Department band, the Beach Boys from performing on 0:13:30.530 --> 0:13:35.250 July 4th in Washington, D.C.. Unsavory characters. You were part 0:13:35.250 --> 0:13:38.490 of the department as this was unfolding. What do we 0:13:38.490 --> 0:13:41.209 have wrong? What do most people have wrong about the 0:13:41.210 --> 0:13:43.760 story about the Beach Boys? on the 4th of July. 0:13:44.440 --> 0:13:46.959 Well, I go into quite a bit of detail there, 0:13:46.960 --> 0:13:51.160 because neither Jim Watt nor I were fans of that 0:13:51.160 --> 0:13:54.000 kind of music. We had no idea who the Beach 0:13:54.000 --> 0:13:58.560 Boys were. The National Park Service decided on its own 0:13:58.559 --> 0:14:02.360 while he was secretary, that it would not have that 0:14:02.360 --> 0:14:05.000 type of music. It wasn't even the Beach Boys who 0:14:05.000 --> 0:14:09.400 had performed, but that type of music was bringing a 0:14:09.400 --> 0:14:16.880 drug culture, violence. We had rapes occurring during these performances. 0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:21.040 It was a mess on the National Mall, and so 0:14:21.040 --> 0:14:24.240 the Park Service, on its own, announced that we would 0:14:24.240 --> 0:14:28.120 not be having these performances in the future. Well, the 0:14:28.120 --> 0:14:31.000 Washington Post wrote an article that The Beach Boys had 0:14:31.000 --> 0:14:36.120 been banned by Jim Watt, and this was a big deal. 0:14:36.120 --> 0:14:38.800 And I walked into his office that morning and and 0:14:38.800 --> 0:14:41.320 he looked at me and he said, who are the 0:14:41.360 --> 0:14:46.070 Beach Boys? And I had to say, I didn't know. However, 0:14:46.430 --> 0:14:50.630 there was a furore over it and the story ran 0:14:50.630 --> 0:14:54.790 and the press pushed it. Nancy Reagan commented how she 0:14:54.790 --> 0:14:58.470 had raised her kids on the Beach Boys and, uh, 0:14:58.670 --> 0:15:02.710 Jim took a real beating over that. It was apparent 0:15:02.710 --> 0:15:05.630 to me later that it was because they were looking 0:15:05.630 --> 0:15:09.350 for something to beat him up with. Because when I 0:15:09.350 --> 0:15:14.790 was secretary, the Beach Boys were once again banned, and 0:15:14.790 --> 0:15:18.070 this time the Beach Boys specifically were banned by the 0:15:18.070 --> 0:15:22.030 National Park Service. And I didn't get a question about 0:15:22.030 --> 0:15:27.550 it for two years. So it was not the decision. 0:15:27.550 --> 0:15:32.030 It was the decision maker that was the target. So 0:15:32.030 --> 0:15:37.510 but it's become it's become part of the history that 0:15:37.830 --> 0:15:41.740 he took the decision to ban them, which was never true. 0:15:42.300 --> 0:15:45.300 Don Hodel with us, former Secretary of the interior. Secretary 0:15:45.300 --> 0:15:48.740 of energy under the Reagan administration. His book is called 0:15:48.740 --> 0:15:52.620 To Serve My Path to President Reagan's Cabinet and Beyond. 0:15:52.660 --> 0:15:55.460 I want to ask a question or two about your 0:15:55.660 --> 0:15:59.420 beloved wife, Barbara, who passed away a few years ago. 0:16:00.180 --> 0:16:02.820 At this particular time. And throughout the book, there are 0:16:02.820 --> 0:16:06.340 so many allusions to consulting her, talking to her about 0:16:06.340 --> 0:16:09.180 what your job might be or where you're going to move, 0:16:09.620 --> 0:16:11.540 or when you're going to, how long you're going to 0:16:11.580 --> 0:16:15.500 serve in a certain place. And you say you included 0:16:15.500 --> 0:16:17.980 your wife as much as possible, the secretary of Education, 0:16:17.980 --> 0:16:20.580 meaning you wanted her to be along on on trips. 0:16:20.580 --> 0:16:23.780 I think later as secretary of Interior, she was actually 0:16:23.820 --> 0:16:26.660 in some of the meetings but not talking in the meetings. 0:16:26.660 --> 0:16:28.940 She said hello. And then and then that was it. 0:16:29.140 --> 0:16:31.220 Didn't want to seem like she was involved, but you 0:16:31.260 --> 0:16:34.220 wanted to have your wife as close to you as 0:16:34.220 --> 0:16:38.820 possible during your service and during these years in Washington. 0:16:39.330 --> 0:16:44.610 is that common among secretaries, at least in your experience? 0:16:44.610 --> 0:16:47.730 And did you need to ask for approval to make 0:16:47.730 --> 0:16:52.170 this happen? How family friendly is a position like Secretary 0:16:52.170 --> 0:16:53.930 of the interior, Secretary of Energy? 0:16:54.490 --> 0:16:58.170 It's not. It is very uncommon. I don't know of 0:16:58.170 --> 0:17:01.610 anybody else who did anything like what I did. My 0:17:01.610 --> 0:17:04.930 wife and I had an unusually close and warm and 0:17:04.930 --> 0:17:12.770 loving relationship. She had no interest in outside activities. She 0:17:12.770 --> 0:17:17.450 was very interested as an observer in things, and she 0:17:17.450 --> 0:17:21.170 was willing to adjust her life activities in a way 0:17:21.170 --> 0:17:23.570 that would allow her to come into any meeting of 0:17:23.570 --> 0:17:26.970 mine that I would include her in. As secretary, I 0:17:26.970 --> 0:17:30.969 had great latitude in who I would include in meetings 0:17:31.609 --> 0:17:35.730 and for meetings where they were with staff. She would 0:17:35.730 --> 0:17:39.640 come anytime she had the time, which was a lot 0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:45.200 with outsiders if she knew them or there was nothing 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:51.000 sensitive about the meeting. I would include her. She agreed 0:17:51.000 --> 0:17:54.840 that the one thing she couldn't do is talk about 0:17:54.840 --> 0:17:58.119 a substantive matter in the meeting, because that would confuse 0:17:58.119 --> 0:18:02.200 people as to where the decision was coming from. But 0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:06.400 she was perfectly comfortable with that. And so, as far 0:18:06.400 --> 0:18:10.760 as I know, nobody else did what we did. But 0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:14.520 nobody was critical of it. And it was a great 0:18:14.520 --> 0:18:19.160 relationship for us. And I worked when I was undersecretary, 0:18:19.160 --> 0:18:23.840 I worked from 730 or 8 in the morning until 11, 0:18:23.880 --> 0:18:27.840 1130 at night. She would come in after hours and 0:18:27.840 --> 0:18:31.280 sit in my office and, and do cruel work or 0:18:31.280 --> 0:18:35.280 read while I worked on stacks of paper. And it 0:18:35.280 --> 0:18:39.440 was like me being at home, working on something and 0:18:39.880 --> 0:18:40.760 in our living room. 0:18:41.200 --> 0:18:43.560 Your wife is also involved in what I think is 0:18:43.560 --> 0:18:46.280 a pretty interesting piece of advice, or one that I 0:18:46.280 --> 0:18:49.200 had not considered before. As you were in the cabinet, 0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:52.840 you said that you figured out you weren't really happy 0:18:52.840 --> 0:18:55.800 something was wrong. You figured out you couldn't feel good 0:18:55.800 --> 0:18:59.440 about your successes because you didn't want to be too prideful, 0:18:59.960 --> 0:19:03.240 but you could feel bad about your mistakes or failures, 0:19:03.240 --> 0:19:05.080 so there was no upside at all. It was only 0:19:05.080 --> 0:19:07.560 only bad. And you talk to Barbara and said, I 0:19:07.560 --> 0:19:12.120 need someone that I can brag about without trying to, to, 0:19:12.160 --> 0:19:14.880 to hide my pride without trying to be modest. And 0:19:14.880 --> 0:19:18.280 she filled that role for you as you worked and 0:19:18.280 --> 0:19:21.679 continue to work in DC as at Interior and Energy. 0:19:21.720 --> 0:19:24.800 What did that arrangement allow you to do? How did 0:19:24.800 --> 0:19:26.360 that change the way you felt. 0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:29.640 In my head? Scott. I always heard my mother when 0:19:29.640 --> 0:19:32.280 I was a young boy, when I got a little 0:19:32.280 --> 0:19:35.790 happy about something I had done, she would say, don't 0:19:35.790 --> 0:19:39.629 get a big head, baby. So I would hear that 0:19:39.830 --> 0:19:43.190 as an adult. Now I'm in the president's cabinet. I 0:19:43.230 --> 0:19:46.230 do something that I'm pretty pleased with. And I hear 0:19:46.230 --> 0:19:50.390 that voice. And so I don't allow myself to feel 0:19:50.390 --> 0:19:54.630 pleased about it. That's getting a big head. But if 0:19:54.630 --> 0:19:57.550 I do something for which I get hammered or I've 0:19:57.550 --> 0:20:01.510 made a mistake that I can, that I can do. 0:20:01.830 --> 0:20:05.830 So all I had was downside. And I realized the 0:20:05.830 --> 0:20:10.990 job was becoming burdensome because I could not enjoy successes 0:20:10.990 --> 0:20:14.830 when they occurred. So because of a wonderful relationship I 0:20:14.830 --> 0:20:17.550 had with Barbara, I just went to her and laid 0:20:17.550 --> 0:20:21.310 that all out and asked if she would be willing 0:20:21.350 --> 0:20:24.629 to play the role of a listener who would not 0:20:24.630 --> 0:20:27.590 be critical and not suggest that I was getting a 0:20:27.590 --> 0:20:30.630 big head if I wanted to brag about something that 0:20:30.630 --> 0:20:34.900 I thought I had done well. And it worked beautifully. Yeah, 0:20:34.940 --> 0:20:36.700 she was wonderful at that. 0:20:37.060 --> 0:20:39.100 A few more minutes here with Don Hodel. His book 0:20:39.100 --> 0:20:42.379 is called To Serve My Path to President Reagan's Cabinet 0:20:42.619 --> 0:20:46.220 and Beyond. As I've mentioned, you served then as Secretary 0:20:46.220 --> 0:20:48.580 of Energy for a few years and then came back 0:20:48.580 --> 0:20:51.900 as secretary of the interior for President Reagan's second term. 0:20:51.980 --> 0:20:55.060 It was during that second term that you describe perhaps 0:20:55.060 --> 0:20:58.420 the biggest crisis you attended to during your time in D.C., 0:20:58.700 --> 0:21:02.899 and those are the 1988 Yellowstone wildfires. For those who 0:21:02.940 --> 0:21:06.140 don't remember, or even those perhaps who weren't around. Tell 0:21:06.140 --> 0:21:08.060 us a bit about why that was such a big 0:21:08.060 --> 0:21:11.620 deal and how the Department of Interior could or could 0:21:11.619 --> 0:21:13.820 not respond to that sort of tragedy. 0:21:14.420 --> 0:21:18.620 Well, Yellowstone National Park is about 2 million acres, and 0:21:18.619 --> 0:21:23.860 it is largely covered in forests. There are some incredibly 0:21:23.859 --> 0:21:28.980 beautiful areas and wildlife in that park in the summer 0:21:28.980 --> 0:21:35.610 of 1988. Very dry. I. Several fires were started by lightning. 0:21:35.890 --> 0:21:40.130 A couple of fires occurred outside the park caused by. 0:21:40.810 --> 0:21:44.250 In one case, a logging operation, another a human action 0:21:44.290 --> 0:21:50.050 and fire campfire or something. The Park Service standard. The 0:21:50.930 --> 0:21:56.170 routine was that they would not fight naturally occurring fires 0:21:56.850 --> 0:22:00.450 because fire was a natural part of the habitat, but 0:22:00.450 --> 0:22:04.770 they would fight. A man caused fire. Well, very rapidly 0:22:04.770 --> 0:22:08.650 these fires merged and pretty soon a large part of 0:22:08.650 --> 0:22:13.730 the park was burning. mid-July, I was informed that they 0:22:13.730 --> 0:22:18.050 had gotten the fires under control, and that very day, 0:22:18.850 --> 0:22:23.490 the winds came at in excess of 50 miles an hour, 0:22:23.490 --> 0:22:26.490 and we had the fires jump all the fire lines, 0:22:26.490 --> 0:22:30.370 and pretty soon the fire was completely out of control. 0:22:30.609 --> 0:22:33.520 At that point, we had help from the Department of 0:22:33.520 --> 0:22:37.280 Defense with 9000 soldiers on the fire lines. We had 0:22:37.280 --> 0:22:41.280 400 fire trucks from all over the west in the 0:22:41.280 --> 0:22:44.359 park trying to help fight the fire. And all we 0:22:44.359 --> 0:22:47.760 could do at that point was try to protect buildings 0:22:47.760 --> 0:22:52.040 and bridges infrastructure, because there was just no way to 0:22:52.040 --> 0:22:55.639 get out there and stop the forest fire. At one point, 0:22:55.640 --> 0:23:00.560 somebody suggested that we needed to bulldoze a fire line. 0:23:00.920 --> 0:23:04.760 But the problem was two things. One, the winds were 0:23:04.760 --> 0:23:09.119 such that the sparks from the fire would jump hundreds 0:23:09.119 --> 0:23:12.359 of feet, so that the fire line would have had 0:23:12.359 --> 0:23:16.440 to be wider than a six lane highway, and that 0:23:16.440 --> 0:23:20.240 fire line would be a visible scar on the landscape 0:23:20.240 --> 0:23:24.480 for the next 200 years. So we decided against doing that. 0:23:25.080 --> 0:23:28.639 The net result was that there was nothing really we 0:23:28.640 --> 0:23:32.830 could do to fight the fire until September came and 0:23:32.830 --> 0:23:36.430 the air got cooler and we got some. Finally some 0:23:36.430 --> 0:23:40.110 snow to help dampen the fire. And finally it went out. 0:23:40.190 --> 0:23:42.910 MM. At the end or near the end of President 0:23:42.910 --> 0:23:46.470 Reagan's second term, you helped describe what it's like to 0:23:46.470 --> 0:23:50.149 be a lame duck secretary as that second term comes 0:23:50.150 --> 0:23:52.710 to an end. And there is literally, as you point out, 0:23:52.710 --> 0:23:57.070 in call to serve nothing for you to do. There 0:23:57.070 --> 0:24:00.389 are cabinet secretaries and President Trump's second term who are 0:24:00.390 --> 0:24:03.910 about to experience this. Do you have any advice that 0:24:03.910 --> 0:24:05.550 you might like to pass along to them? 0:24:05.990 --> 0:24:08.910 Well, my advice is don't kid yourself that you're going 0:24:08.910 --> 0:24:13.550 to have a great deal of influence after the presidential election. 0:24:13.790 --> 0:24:17.310 And in fact, your influence will decline as you get 0:24:17.310 --> 0:24:20.150 closer to the election. And once the election is over 0:24:20.590 --> 0:24:25.070 and any policy decisions that you can still make have 0:24:25.070 --> 0:24:29.540 been made, there's nothing left for you to do. Nobody 0:24:29.540 --> 0:24:32.700 really cares at that point what you think or what 0:24:32.700 --> 0:24:36.020 you're going to do. Unless I would think somebody like 0:24:36.020 --> 0:24:38.379 the Secretary of State might be in the middle of 0:24:38.380 --> 0:24:42.300 a negotiation, but even there, his hands are substantially tied 0:24:42.300 --> 0:24:46.379 by the fact that his president is outgoing and the 0:24:46.380 --> 0:24:50.420 new president is coming in regardless of party. So you 0:24:50.420 --> 0:24:56.620 just power moves quickly, and the bureaucracy quickly recognizes there 0:24:56.619 --> 0:25:00.420 will be a new sheriff in town. And you're not 0:25:00.420 --> 0:25:01.060 that guy. 0:25:02.859 --> 0:25:05.180 Don Hodel with us, his book called To Serve My 0:25:05.180 --> 0:25:08.659 Path to President Reagan's Cabinet and Beyond a few minutes 0:25:08.660 --> 0:25:11.740 on the beyond, because there's there's more there are additional 0:25:11.740 --> 0:25:15.140 chapters after your service in Washington as you become involved 0:25:15.140 --> 0:25:18.340 in the Christian Coalition with Pat Robertson, focus on the 0:25:18.340 --> 0:25:22.620 family as well. You have public service and now private 0:25:22.619 --> 0:25:25.379 service as well. I don't know if it's a stretch 0:25:25.380 --> 0:25:28.260 to say that that the private service. I don't know 0:25:28.260 --> 0:25:32.100 if you were more unhappy during that time, but both 0:25:32.100 --> 0:25:36.340 seemed to end in ways that weren't quite satisfactory. How 0:25:36.340 --> 0:25:39.300 would you how would you contrast your time in public 0:25:39.300 --> 0:25:42.100 service and your time in private service with Christian Coalition 0:25:42.100 --> 0:25:43.140 and focus on the family? 0:25:43.660 --> 0:25:46.500 As I say in the book, I did not do 0:25:46.540 --> 0:25:51.460 my due diligence before going to Christian Coalition. Had I 0:25:51.500 --> 0:25:54.700 done it, I really would not have gone. 0:25:54.740 --> 0:25:55.180 Mhm. 0:25:55.340 --> 0:25:58.540 And, uh, in the long run, Pat and Robertson and 0:25:58.540 --> 0:26:03.699 I simply were not a good, good match. Uh, so 0:26:04.820 --> 0:26:08.419 that was not, in my view, a very productive or 0:26:08.420 --> 0:26:12.459 successful effort. By the same token, I did what I 0:26:12.460 --> 0:26:16.980 did because I felt called to serve. And so I, 0:26:17.420 --> 0:26:20.140 you know, things came out of it for which I 0:26:20.140 --> 0:26:24.380 was better off. But it was not a high point 0:26:24.380 --> 0:26:26.409 in my life when I went to focus on the 0:26:26.410 --> 0:26:31.090 family because of my tremendous respect and admiration for Doctor 0:26:31.090 --> 0:26:36.410 James Dobson, and I had served there temporarily as a volunteer, 0:26:37.530 --> 0:26:43.889 and in 96 we'd established a wonderful relationship, and later 0:26:43.890 --> 0:26:48.129 I went back when he was finally willing to relinquish 0:26:48.130 --> 0:26:52.410 the presidency. And I went as president. And I went 0:26:52.450 --> 0:26:56.690 knowing that there was a substantial chance that in that role, 0:26:56.930 --> 0:27:02.050 the relationship, the wonderful relationship we had, would be damaged. 0:27:02.050 --> 0:27:05.930 And of course, it turned out to be in that case, 0:27:05.930 --> 0:27:11.530 it was, I would say, an inevitable side effect of 0:27:11.650 --> 0:27:16.050 taking on that role. He was a founder, a very 0:27:16.050 --> 0:27:24.410 decisive man, incredibly gifted, great Christian leader. But as a founder, 0:27:24.440 --> 0:27:31.040 He just had a terrible time relinquishing his baby, and 0:27:31.520 --> 0:27:37.159 that's totally understandable. And my love for the man never changed. 0:27:37.520 --> 0:27:41.440 And I was very regretful that in the end, we 0:27:42.280 --> 0:27:44.760 had a somewhat ruptured relationship. 0:27:45.760 --> 0:27:50.280 We spent some time with Don Hodel. Haven't talked about 0:27:50.280 --> 0:27:53.400 Ronald Reagan, the man, the president, the person you served 0:27:53.400 --> 0:27:57.359 under for, I believe, all eight years of his time 0:27:57.359 --> 0:28:02.800 in office. What qualities did you experience first hand that 0:28:02.800 --> 0:28:06.880 Ronald Reagan possessed that made him an exceptional president? 0:28:07.400 --> 0:28:10.960 You know, Scott, I don't think most people recognize the 0:28:10.960 --> 0:28:15.960 importance of his Christian commitment. You go back historically, and 0:28:15.960 --> 0:28:20.520 his mother was very staunch, and he accompanied her to 0:28:21.000 --> 0:28:25.030 her witnessing. And that was a part of the man 0:28:25.470 --> 0:28:31.030 he was. He was the most congenial man, but also 0:28:31.030 --> 0:28:35.230 a man of firm convictions. And I think that amazed 0:28:35.230 --> 0:28:38.910 the press, because I think their feeling was that a 0:28:38.910 --> 0:28:42.990 man who was that congenial wouldn't be tough. 0:28:43.190 --> 0:28:43.710 Mhm. 0:28:43.870 --> 0:28:48.310 In fact, he was tough. He knew what he wanted 0:28:48.310 --> 0:28:50.990 to accomplish. He had a vision for America. He was 0:28:50.990 --> 0:28:55.510 wonderful at casting that vision for the American people, the 0:28:55.510 --> 0:29:00.110 shining city on a hill. And he really understood the 0:29:00.110 --> 0:29:05.070 importance of his vision to helping the country move forward. 0:29:05.350 --> 0:29:07.710 And I think he did that remarkably well. 0:29:08.550 --> 0:29:12.030 Stories about Ronald Reagan and much more in the memoir 0:29:12.030 --> 0:29:16.350 by Don Hodel, it's called To Serve by Path to 0:29:16.390 --> 0:29:20.910 President Reagan's cabinet and beyond. Don, thank you for your 0:29:20.910 --> 0:29:23.580 service to the country, And thank you for joining us 0:29:23.580 --> 0:29:26.100 here on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. 0:29:26.340 --> 0:29:29.180 Scott, thank you for giving me this opportunity to be 0:29:29.180 --> 0:29:29.780 with you. 0:29:29.820 --> 0:29:33.260 Up next, Doctor Stephanie Laubach from Hillsdale Physics Department tells 0:29:33.260 --> 0:29:38.980 us about her research into nanotechnology and magnetism. I'm Scott Bertram. 0:29:39.020 --> 0:29:52.980 This is the radio free Hillsdale Hour. Welcome back to 0:29:53.020 --> 0:29:56.900 the Radio free Hillsdale Hour. I'm Scott Bertrand. Be sure 0:29:56.900 --> 0:30:00.140 to check out older episodes of this program, plus tons 0:30:00.140 --> 0:30:05.540 of other fantastic Hillsdale audio presentations and podcasts on Hillsdale 0:30:05.540 --> 0:30:12.180 College Podcast Network, podcast.hillsdale.edu, or wherever you get your audio. 0:30:12.620 --> 0:30:15.900 We're joined by Doctor Stephanie Lorbek. She is associate professor 0:30:15.900 --> 0:30:19.380 of physics here at Hillsdale College. Doctor Lorbek, thanks for 0:30:19.380 --> 0:30:20.180 joining us. 0:30:20.380 --> 0:30:21.890 Yeah, thanks for having me on. 0:30:21.890 --> 0:30:27.570 Talking today about your research and work into nanotechnology and magnetism. 0:30:27.930 --> 0:30:32.450 Interesting stuff. When people hear nanotechnology, they might imagine some 0:30:32.490 --> 0:30:36.530 sort of science fiction novel. What does it really? And 0:30:36.810 --> 0:30:40.130 how small are we talking about when we talk about nanotechnology? 0:30:40.450 --> 0:30:44.610 Yeah. So nanotechnology is just any sort of a system 0:30:44.610 --> 0:30:49.370 that is manipulating matter or material on the nanoscale, which 0:30:49.370 --> 0:30:52.810 is between 1 to 100 nanometers. I'll give you an 0:30:52.810 --> 0:30:55.370 idea of what that size is. It's very small, but 0:30:55.370 --> 0:30:58.570 there's lots of different places where these are used. My 0:30:58.850 --> 0:31:00.930 a lot of the applications that I'm more familiar with 0:31:01.010 --> 0:31:04.530 is in medicine. So just to give a couple examples, 0:31:04.530 --> 0:31:07.810 if you there's labs that have built little boxes out 0:31:07.810 --> 0:31:11.210 of DNA and they'll put drugs inside and the lid 0:31:11.250 --> 0:31:14.170 of the box can be closed and have a key 0:31:14.210 --> 0:31:16.370 on it. That's a receptor that will only be opened 0:31:16.370 --> 0:31:19.690 if it has another different receptor on it. And cancer 0:31:19.720 --> 0:31:22.680 cells have certain receptors that are different than other receptors. 0:31:22.680 --> 0:31:26.280 So essentially, they can admit this drug and it will 0:31:26.280 --> 0:31:30.040 directly open once it hits a cancer cell. And so 0:31:30.040 --> 0:31:34.560 that's a way of doing direct, um, drug drug delivery. Um, 0:31:34.560 --> 0:31:38.640 so a lot of different drug delivery methods that people use. Um, 0:31:38.640 --> 0:31:41.400 I love another one. And Doctor Castro's lab, which I 0:31:41.600 --> 0:31:45.520 collaborated with when I was at Ohio State. Um, they 0:31:45.520 --> 0:31:48.920 had a cool system where bacteria basically had become resistant 0:31:48.920 --> 0:31:53.640 to drugs and the, um, they would hide basically the 0:31:53.640 --> 0:31:57.560 drugs inside of a DNA, uh, structure. They called it 0:31:57.560 --> 0:32:00.640 the Trojan horse. And it wasn't shaped like a horse, 0:32:00.640 --> 0:32:03.120 but it was called the Trojan horse because essentially it 0:32:03.120 --> 0:32:07.040 would trick the bacteria that it would trick the bacteria 0:32:07.280 --> 0:32:09.920 into thinking that it wasn't a drug and it would 0:32:09.920 --> 0:32:11.480 just take it in and think, oh, this is just 0:32:11.480 --> 0:32:13.360 some DNA, and it would bring it in, and then 0:32:13.360 --> 0:32:15.400 it would break down and deliver the drug to it. 0:32:15.400 --> 0:32:18.479 So it was like a way of directly delivering drugs 0:32:18.600 --> 0:32:21.720 to resistant bacteria. So there's lots of different uses in 0:32:21.760 --> 0:32:25.320 nano like in medicine, but even in like material science, 0:32:25.320 --> 0:32:27.920 you can use it to change properties of things. So like, 0:32:27.960 --> 0:32:31.080 for example, graphene is a really big hot topic, one 0:32:31.320 --> 0:32:35.160 which is basically a 2D layer of carbon that you 0:32:35.160 --> 0:32:38.760 can make, say nanotubes where you roll the carbon on 0:32:38.760 --> 0:32:41.480 itself to make a tube, or you can make nanoribbons 0:32:41.480 --> 0:32:44.840 where they're just cut in strips. And if you add 0:32:44.840 --> 0:32:48.080 this to materials, you can strengthen the material. People are 0:32:48.080 --> 0:32:50.960 using it in concrete and things like this. You can 0:32:50.960 --> 0:32:54.160 also change the electrical properties of it because it's very conductive. 0:32:54.560 --> 0:32:57.000 So there's lots of ways that you can change basically 0:32:57.040 --> 0:33:00.000 material properties using this. And then even in like computers 0:33:00.000 --> 0:33:03.560 and electronics, nanotechnology is a huge part of this. Making 0:33:03.600 --> 0:33:07.640 transistors smaller, which makes a computer run faster, helps us 0:33:07.640 --> 0:33:10.560 to store more information, process things at faster speeds. So 0:33:10.760 --> 0:33:12.880 there's lots of different areas that's being used. 0:33:12.920 --> 0:33:16.360 And as far as size, when it comes to this nanotechnology, 0:33:16.400 --> 0:33:19.270 how small exactly are we talking about? 0:33:19.310 --> 0:33:22.790 It's anything that's on the nanoscale. And to give you 0:33:22.790 --> 0:33:26.150 just an illustration, how small this is. If you had 0:33:26.190 --> 0:33:29.390 if you imagine one nanometer being the size of a pea, 0:33:29.430 --> 0:33:32.710 like a pea that you eat, a school bus would 0:33:32.710 --> 0:33:37.270 be what we'd consider a micrometer. Okay. A micrometer is 0:33:37.630 --> 0:33:41.030 1000 times smaller than a millimeter. So if you think 0:33:41.030 --> 0:33:43.910 of your ruler, you have millimeters on your ruler. Those 0:33:43.910 --> 0:33:47.430 are the smallest division. So a thousand times smaller than 0:33:47.430 --> 0:33:50.230 that is micrometer. That's your school bus. And then the, 0:33:50.230 --> 0:33:53.150 the meter, which is, you know, how long your meter 0:33:53.150 --> 0:33:55.230 stick is. Your arm span is like one and a 0:33:55.270 --> 0:33:57.710 half to two meters, depending on how tall you are. 0:33:57.990 --> 0:34:01.630 A meter when one nanometer is a pea would be 0:34:01.630 --> 0:34:05.870 driving from LA to New York and back again. So 0:34:05.870 --> 0:34:09.589 you can imagine that pea to that meter. Um, and 0:34:09.590 --> 0:34:12.830 as far as like on the biological side, your hair 0:34:12.830 --> 0:34:15.509 is actually, you can see the diameter of your hair. 0:34:15.550 --> 0:34:20.260 I mean, it's obviously pretty small that you can't. Yeah. It's, 0:34:20.300 --> 0:34:24.260 um that is about 0.1mm. So that's a 10th of 0:34:24.580 --> 0:34:28.580 that division. Your white blood cells or cells in general 0:34:28.620 --> 0:34:33.620 are more like on the micrometer region. And then the proteins, 0:34:33.620 --> 0:34:36.340 which are the things that do all the work inside 0:34:36.340 --> 0:34:39.219 your cells. Those are on the nanometer size. So you 0:34:39.219 --> 0:34:41.580 can imagine the P is sort of like moving around 0:34:41.580 --> 0:34:44.660 inside of the school bus. And that's the cell, right? 0:34:44.700 --> 0:34:46.739 Which we have to look under the microscope in order 0:34:46.739 --> 0:34:47.620 to see. Yeah. 0:34:47.660 --> 0:34:49.859 Let's talk a little bit more about this DNA work. 0:34:49.900 --> 0:34:53.259 A lot of your work involves building these little structures 0:34:53.300 --> 0:34:57.180 out of DNA. How does DNA become a building material 0:34:57.180 --> 0:34:58.220 for machines? 0:34:58.219 --> 0:35:01.299 Yes, that's a good question. Picture would help with this, 0:35:01.300 --> 0:35:03.339 but I can give a little bit of an illustration. 0:35:03.340 --> 0:35:07.020 So I mean, essentially you build you can build material 0:35:07.060 --> 0:35:09.460 machines out of anything, right? You can build out of wood, 0:35:09.460 --> 0:35:12.820 you can build out of metal. Our building material is DNA. 0:35:13.100 --> 0:35:15.890 And the reason why DNA is so helpful on the 0:35:15.890 --> 0:35:20.490 nanoscale is because it has these small base pairs that 0:35:20.489 --> 0:35:22.689 interact or bind with one another. And so most people 0:35:22.690 --> 0:35:26.130 are probably familiar with the four bases adenine, thymine, guanine 0:35:26.130 --> 0:35:29.770 and cytosine. Adenine and thymine will bind together with two 0:35:29.770 --> 0:35:33.210 hydrogen bonds based on their chemical structure. And guanine and 0:35:33.210 --> 0:35:37.570 cytosine will bind together with three hydrogen bonds. And um, 0:35:38.090 --> 0:35:42.730 essentially these base pairs will form a sequence. We call 0:35:42.730 --> 0:35:45.290 it single stranded DNA. And they don't like to stay 0:35:45.290 --> 0:35:48.810 single stranded. So they naturally want to find that other 0:35:48.810 --> 0:35:51.489 base that will compliment them. And when they do that, 0:35:51.489 --> 0:35:55.090 they form the double stranded DNA, which most people can 0:35:55.090 --> 0:35:58.969 know that forms a helix, a helix. And so that 0:35:59.330 --> 0:36:02.650 helix is essentially what we view as our building block. 0:36:03.050 --> 0:36:06.330 In that helix has a very specific diameter. It's about 0:36:06.330 --> 0:36:08.650 two nanometers across. So you can imagine it's sort of 0:36:08.690 --> 0:36:12.129 like a cylinder. It's two nanometers across. And as far 0:36:12.130 --> 0:36:14.480 as how tall it is depends on how many base 0:36:14.520 --> 0:36:16.640 pairs you put in. So let's say you want to 0:36:16.640 --> 0:36:19.960 make it to be 3.4 nanometers tall. That would be 0:36:19.960 --> 0:36:22.600 ten base pairs that you stack on. Every base pair 0:36:22.600 --> 0:36:25.239 you add is a 0.34 nanometer increase. So you can 0:36:25.239 --> 0:36:28.040 imagine you have the precision. Unlike if you're building out 0:36:28.040 --> 0:36:31.520 of wood or metal, you can't cut down something to 0:36:31.560 --> 0:36:34.560 the nanometer scale, right? This one allows us to be 0:36:34.560 --> 0:36:38.720 with precision of 0.4 or 0.34 nanometers. So so that's 0:36:38.719 --> 0:36:41.640 that's the basic right is essentially we have these helixes 0:36:41.640 --> 0:36:43.879 that are just rods. And we can change how long 0:36:43.920 --> 0:36:45.239 they are. And you might say, well, what if I 0:36:45.239 --> 0:36:47.400 want to make more than a rod? Well, let's say 0:36:47.400 --> 0:36:49.560 you want to make a platform, a 2D platform. Well, 0:36:49.560 --> 0:36:52.320 then you just put the rods or the helixes side 0:36:52.320 --> 0:36:54.799 by side and you can make a bigger platform. And 0:36:54.800 --> 0:36:56.520 let's say you want to make something 3D. Well, you 0:36:56.520 --> 0:36:59.480 can stack those platforms on top of each other and 0:36:59.480 --> 0:37:01.560 you can make it more of a creative shake. Of course, 0:37:01.560 --> 0:37:03.879 you can imagine a cube pretty easily, but I can 0:37:03.880 --> 0:37:06.360 make it into a football shape by changing how long 0:37:06.360 --> 0:37:08.880 each of those rods at each of those places are at. 0:37:09.080 --> 0:37:11.600 And so that's essentially what we do. We use a 0:37:11.600 --> 0:37:16.270 technique called DNA origami, which came out in 2006. And 0:37:16.270 --> 0:37:19.790 that actually was what sort of revolutionized a lot of 0:37:19.790 --> 0:37:23.190 building structures out of DNA because we were able to actually, 0:37:23.230 --> 0:37:26.189 we were able to self-assemble them, meaning that we could 0:37:26.190 --> 0:37:28.870 encode all the information of exactly what we wanted it 0:37:28.870 --> 0:37:32.830 to build and design into. And then by applying some heat, 0:37:32.950 --> 0:37:36.990 some salt, it actually forms into that structure itself. So 0:37:37.310 --> 0:37:40.270 and it's very reliable. You get a very high efficiency. 0:37:40.430 --> 0:37:43.669 So forth. And so it's about 2006 when sort of 0:37:43.710 --> 0:37:47.029 this DNA nanotechnology actually sort of took off because of 0:37:47.030 --> 0:37:47.830 this technique. 0:37:48.030 --> 0:37:50.950 Stephanie Lobeck is with us, associate professor of physics here 0:37:50.950 --> 0:37:55.470 at Hillsdale College, talking about nanotechnology and magnetism. So again, 0:37:55.469 --> 0:37:59.430 some of your research here uses magnetic fields to move 0:37:59.469 --> 0:38:04.189 some of these DNA structures. So how does magnetism help 0:38:04.190 --> 0:38:06.630 to control something again that is so small. 0:38:06.989 --> 0:38:10.549 Yeah. So the magnetism allows us to apply what we'd 0:38:10.550 --> 0:38:13.860 call magnetic forces. And of course you say, well, DNA 0:38:13.860 --> 0:38:17.500 doesn't seem very magnetic. Right. And it's very true with 0:38:17.500 --> 0:38:20.860 with weak forces, you're not going to magnetize DNA at all. 0:38:21.060 --> 0:38:23.819 And so what we actually do is we use magnetic particles. 0:38:23.820 --> 0:38:25.819 So a lot of times there's beads, there's ones that 0:38:25.820 --> 0:38:27.660 are on the micron size. There's also ones on the 0:38:27.660 --> 0:38:31.739 nano size that you can attach to the DNA nanomachines. 0:38:31.739 --> 0:38:35.460 And then by applying an external magnetic field, essentially, you 0:38:35.460 --> 0:38:37.100 can think of this bead as being like a little 0:38:37.140 --> 0:38:40.220 bar magnet that wants to line up with the field, 0:38:40.219 --> 0:38:42.219 just like a compass needle. So if I point the 0:38:42.219 --> 0:38:45.140 field in one direction, the needle will turn to line 0:38:45.140 --> 0:38:48.339 up with that field. And so if it's attached to 0:38:48.340 --> 0:38:50.819 our structure, it will then move our structure. So if 0:38:50.820 --> 0:38:52.740 it's a hinge and you have a bead on the end, 0:38:52.780 --> 0:38:55.020 you can open and close the hinge just by sweeping 0:38:55.020 --> 0:38:57.980 the field across. And essentially you're just allowing it to 0:38:58.020 --> 0:39:01.940 apply a force directly through the bead onto the nano 0:39:01.940 --> 0:39:05.500 structure itself. So it's actually, it's, it's really cool. That 0:39:05.500 --> 0:39:07.979 was one of honestly, the, the big questions when first 0:39:07.980 --> 0:39:11.250 people started building these nanomachines was actually like, these are 0:39:11.250 --> 0:39:14.450 really cool, but how do we move them? Sure. And, um, 0:39:15.010 --> 0:39:17.690 that was yeah, a big question for a while. And 0:39:17.690 --> 0:39:20.490 the cool thing about using magnetism is it actually allows 0:39:20.489 --> 0:39:23.810 us to do direct actuation. Most methods, there's only one 0:39:23.810 --> 0:39:25.890 other one that is a direct actuation, which is using 0:39:25.890 --> 0:39:29.730 electric fields. But all the other ways are indirect. They're probabilistic. 0:39:29.730 --> 0:39:32.850 And they they take more time oftentimes to do it. 0:39:33.290 --> 0:39:38.129 One application that people hear about is targeted drug delivery. 0:39:38.170 --> 0:39:42.530 Can nanotechnology help to change the way that medicine works? 0:39:42.570 --> 0:39:45.410 Yeah for sure. So one of the big things that 0:39:45.410 --> 0:39:47.930 we're sort of working on in my lab is moving 0:39:47.930 --> 0:39:51.370 towards trying to make nanomachines that will be used for medicine. 0:39:51.690 --> 0:39:55.370 And one of the. So there's sort of two main things. 0:39:55.370 --> 0:40:00.690 So one is bacteria that have become resistant to our antibiotics. 0:40:00.690 --> 0:40:03.330 So we start to call these super bacteria. Once they 0:40:03.330 --> 0:40:06.330 start to become very resistant to drugs, they it's hard 0:40:06.330 --> 0:40:09.130 to kill them. And so a lot of our drugs 0:40:09.130 --> 0:40:13.690 today are basically chemical reactions that are taking place. And 0:40:13.850 --> 0:40:17.649 bacteria easily change can more easily morph to change, to 0:40:17.650 --> 0:40:21.569 react and not to resist basically those chemical reactions. And 0:40:21.570 --> 0:40:24.130 so what the Nanomachine would allow us to do is 0:40:24.130 --> 0:40:27.890 actually a mechanical mechanism to kill the to kill the 0:40:27.890 --> 0:40:30.490 cell instead of a chemical one. And so an example 0:40:30.489 --> 0:40:33.609 of this would actually be one, a professor actually at 0:40:33.610 --> 0:40:38.010 Rice University. His name is Doctor Tour. He has developed 0:40:38.130 --> 0:40:42.090 machines not out of DNA but just from molecules. They're nanomachines. 0:40:42.250 --> 0:40:46.090 And some of them are like a jackhammer. Mhm. And 0:40:46.090 --> 0:40:48.530 what he does is he can actually shoot light, different 0:40:48.530 --> 0:40:51.290 wavelengths of light at it, and it causes it to 0:40:51.330 --> 0:40:54.250 sort of vibrate up and down. And if he can 0:40:54.290 --> 0:40:57.529 basically put a molecule on there, so it finds this 0:40:57.530 --> 0:41:01.290 bacteria cell, he can then jackhammer and destroy basically the 0:41:01.290 --> 0:41:03.810 membrane of that cell. And then it now it's either 0:41:03.810 --> 0:41:06.330 killed or now you can administer the drug and it 0:41:06.330 --> 0:41:09.280 can get inside. And so what we're looking at doing. 0:41:09.480 --> 0:41:11.680 I was like, that's a really creative idea. So I 0:41:11.680 --> 0:41:14.480 thought we could do something like this to light, of course, 0:41:14.480 --> 0:41:16.760 can't pass all the way through your body, but magnetic 0:41:16.760 --> 0:41:19.080 fields do and they're very safe. We apply very large 0:41:19.080 --> 0:41:22.240 magnetic fields, say for example, in an MRI. Right. And 0:41:22.239 --> 0:41:24.440 so this would be a great way of if we 0:41:24.440 --> 0:41:27.160 could build a machine that would essentially, you know, be 0:41:27.160 --> 0:41:30.000 like a jackhammer or hammer or something like this that 0:41:30.000 --> 0:41:33.680 would basically mechanically destroy a cell. And again, you can 0:41:33.680 --> 0:41:36.320 target it by putting certain receptors on it that would, 0:41:36.360 --> 0:41:39.160 you know, respond to only cancer cell receptors or these 0:41:39.160 --> 0:41:42.319 bacteria receptors and so forth. You'd actually be able to 0:41:42.360 --> 0:41:45.560 target them and destroy them directly instead of killing other things. 0:41:45.560 --> 0:41:48.640 So that's, um, those are sort of yeah, cancer cells. 0:41:48.640 --> 0:41:52.080 And then these super bacteria, sort of two big topics 0:41:52.080 --> 0:41:53.840 that that people are working on doing. 0:41:54.080 --> 0:41:56.960 Doctor Stephanie Lobeck is with us, associate professor of physics 0:41:56.960 --> 0:42:01.520 here at Hillsdale College. Nanotechnology and magnetism. When you're working 0:42:01.520 --> 0:42:07.070 at this tiny scale, how do you observe what's actually happening? 0:42:07.070 --> 0:42:08.830 What does what does a lab look like? 0:42:08.870 --> 0:42:13.069 Right. That's a really good question. So you can actually 0:42:13.070 --> 0:42:15.710 look at something on the nanoscale in a microscope. So 0:42:15.710 --> 0:42:17.950 a lot of people sort of maybe picture us looking 0:42:17.950 --> 0:42:20.549 down in a microscope that actually only sees or can 0:42:20.550 --> 0:42:24.189 only resolve on the micron level. So what you have 0:42:24.190 --> 0:42:27.830 to do is actually label these nanostructures with something that 0:42:27.830 --> 0:42:31.190 we call fluorophore. And a fluorophore is something where when 0:42:31.190 --> 0:42:33.989 you shoot a certain wavelength of light, it will emit 0:42:34.030 --> 0:42:36.750 a different wavelength of light. It will it will excite 0:42:36.750 --> 0:42:39.830 the electron, and it will then emit a different wavelength 0:42:39.830 --> 0:42:42.350 of light. Essentially, what we can do is we can 0:42:42.350 --> 0:42:46.390 label our structures with different fluorophores, and then based on 0:42:46.390 --> 0:42:49.430 the light signal that they're emitting, because light spreads out, 0:42:49.430 --> 0:42:52.069 we can see the light that it forms even though 0:42:52.070 --> 0:42:55.950 we can't see the structure. And so that's one way visually, 0:42:55.989 --> 0:42:58.790 like if you want to see it happening in real time, 0:42:58.790 --> 0:43:02.150 you actually have to use fluorescence essentially. So that's a 0:43:02.150 --> 0:43:05.140 big one. But there's other ways like right now, um, 0:43:05.340 --> 0:43:07.379 a lot of the structures we've been working on, we 0:43:07.380 --> 0:43:11.299 actually been using micron sized beads to attach to these 0:43:11.300 --> 0:43:13.500 nano structures. And you think, how can that happen? That's 0:43:13.540 --> 0:43:18.180 like a huge scaling difference. We use these nanorods that 0:43:18.180 --> 0:43:22.620 are micron in length but have nanometer thickness. And so 0:43:22.620 --> 0:43:24.980 they can attach to the nanomachine, but also reach out 0:43:24.980 --> 0:43:28.180 to the micron sized rod and the micron sized beads 0:43:28.180 --> 0:43:31.140 we can see. And so it's very interesting. You'll see 0:43:31.140 --> 0:43:33.100 a bead moving in a certain way, but you can't 0:43:33.100 --> 0:43:36.580 see the machine itself. But because it's constraining how the 0:43:36.620 --> 0:43:40.060 bead moves, you can actually observe exactly what's happening to 0:43:40.100 --> 0:43:42.060 the bead. So that's another way. Now if you want 0:43:42.100 --> 0:43:44.860 to observe like a static, like you don't need to 0:43:44.860 --> 0:43:47.100 actually see it in action. You just want to like image, 0:43:47.140 --> 0:43:49.540 get a nice good image of it. You can use 0:43:49.540 --> 0:43:52.219 things like an AFM. We have one of those on campus, 0:43:52.219 --> 0:43:55.779 which is basically like a way of seeing like the 0:43:55.780 --> 0:43:59.100 height profile, essentially of the structure. It shoots a little 0:43:59.100 --> 0:44:01.700 cantilever and it shoots a laser down at the cantilever. 0:44:01.700 --> 0:44:03.930 And as it goes across the surface, it has to 0:44:03.930 --> 0:44:06.010 go up to go over the surface. So the laser 0:44:06.010 --> 0:44:08.850 beam goes up and it sort of traces out the 0:44:08.850 --> 0:44:11.529 structure of the surface. So that's one way. So we 0:44:11.530 --> 0:44:14.730 use an AFM to visualize. People use other things like 0:44:14.770 --> 0:44:18.169 a Tem which is using electrons to visualize stuff. But 0:44:18.170 --> 0:44:20.850 there's there's many different ways. But you those are just 0:44:20.850 --> 0:44:21.930 some examples. 0:44:21.930 --> 0:44:23.930 You have students who have worked on some of these 0:44:23.930 --> 0:44:26.890 projects who are working on some of your projects. What 0:44:26.890 --> 0:44:30.489 do Hillsdale College undergraduates get to do with this kind 0:44:30.489 --> 0:44:31.290 of research? 0:44:31.489 --> 0:44:33.330 Yeah. So they get to do a lot of a 0:44:33.370 --> 0:44:35.570 lot of stuff. Like pretty much they're involved in every 0:44:35.610 --> 0:44:38.290 step of this, this part of the project. So my 0:44:38.290 --> 0:44:41.770 students will build the structures in the lab, which involves 0:44:41.770 --> 0:44:45.890 a lot of biological techniques using pipettes and thermocyclers and 0:44:45.890 --> 0:44:48.210 centrifuges and all this stuff. So they get to learn 0:44:48.210 --> 0:44:52.410 the DNA origami technique. They will run experiments where they're 0:44:52.410 --> 0:44:55.770 applying the magnetic fields and watching the structures change, looking 0:44:55.770 --> 0:45:00.090 at them under fluorescence or observing the micron sized beads 0:45:00.090 --> 0:45:04.200 in bright fields. And then they'll also do the analysis 0:45:04.239 --> 0:45:07.799 like normally afterwards. We're analyzing, we have to analyze the 0:45:07.800 --> 0:45:10.160 videos and things that we're taking. And so there's a 0:45:10.200 --> 0:45:12.760 lot of, you know, maybe even coding and just analysis 0:45:12.760 --> 0:45:15.200 that goes involved in that. So there's like a whole 0:45:15.200 --> 0:45:17.520 stretch of what they do, but they, they get to 0:45:17.520 --> 0:45:19.360 be a part of, of all of it. 0:45:20.120 --> 0:45:23.000 As you're talking, I'm thinking back to a conversation I 0:45:23.000 --> 0:45:27.240 had with Doctor Russell from the biology department about bacteria 0:45:27.239 --> 0:45:31.400 and films. So does your research ever cross over with 0:45:31.400 --> 0:45:33.960 work that other professors here at Hillsdale are doing? 0:45:34.000 --> 0:45:36.520 Yes, that's actually a great question. So actually this summer 0:45:36.520 --> 0:45:40.000 I'm collaborating with him on a project and we have 0:45:40.000 --> 0:45:42.319 a student. He actually reached out to me because he'd 0:45:42.320 --> 0:45:46.840 seen a presentation I gave at a faculty meeting. And, um, 0:45:47.000 --> 0:45:49.360 he was like, hey, I grow these biofilms. And they 0:45:49.400 --> 0:45:51.799 are very resistant sometimes to drugs. And so we have 0:45:51.800 --> 0:45:54.560 to get the drugs past the biofilms. Can you use 0:45:54.560 --> 0:45:56.719 your machines to drill into them? And I was like, well, 0:45:56.719 --> 0:45:59.320 I don't have the machines yet. We're still working towards that. 0:45:59.320 --> 0:46:01.270 Probably in the next couple of years, we'll have the 0:46:01.270 --> 0:46:03.830 machines that we can drill into these. But I said 0:46:03.830 --> 0:46:07.910 we could try just some preliminary testing with the beads. 0:46:07.910 --> 0:46:11.270 So there are actually people right now that have used, um, 0:46:11.310 --> 0:46:14.350 nano sized beads as well as micron sized beads to 0:46:14.390 --> 0:46:18.029 either drill into, you know, materials or plaque or things 0:46:18.030 --> 0:46:20.270 like this. And so I said we could just try 0:46:20.270 --> 0:46:21.989 the beads. And I have two, I have a nano 0:46:21.989 --> 0:46:24.029 sized beads and I have a micro sized bead in 0:46:24.030 --> 0:46:27.390 my lab. And so we are doing very early on 0:46:27.710 --> 0:46:31.550 experimental result tests. Right. And we have a student working 0:46:31.550 --> 0:46:33.670 with us. I've showed her she's growing up the bacteria, 0:46:33.670 --> 0:46:36.310 and I'm also showing her how to run the magnetic fields. 0:46:36.310 --> 0:46:38.670 And so yeah, we're early on in this stage, so 0:46:38.670 --> 0:46:41.470 we're excited to see. We either expect that the beads 0:46:41.469 --> 0:46:44.950 might just the larger beads might just swipe the films 0:46:44.950 --> 0:46:46.910 off the surface, which would be good. It would be 0:46:46.910 --> 0:46:48.830 also a good way of getting rid of them. They 0:46:48.830 --> 0:46:51.310 actually do this right now with like dental stuff. Like 0:46:51.350 --> 0:46:54.390 they actually it's actively being used. And then the other 0:46:54.390 --> 0:46:56.390 one with the, with the nano sized beads, we think 0:46:56.390 --> 0:46:58.950 that one has more potential to actually drill holes through 0:46:59.030 --> 0:47:01.710 the the biofilm. So. So we'll see what we get. 0:47:01.710 --> 0:47:04.790 But we are actively working on doing a project based 0:47:04.790 --> 0:47:05.469 on this. 0:47:05.630 --> 0:47:08.310 So are we in the early days of this research 0:47:08.350 --> 0:47:12.790 meaning nanotechnology. Are we already starting to see changes or 0:47:12.950 --> 0:47:15.310 impacting everyday technology. 0:47:15.350 --> 0:47:19.830 Yeah. So I would say it's definitely already impacting the technology. 0:47:19.830 --> 0:47:23.070 People probably just don't realize where it's all being used. 0:47:23.110 --> 0:47:26.670 I mean, even in medicine, it's already there and probably 0:47:26.670 --> 0:47:29.270 a lot of your materials and stuff and even computers. 0:47:29.270 --> 0:47:31.750 So just people don't realize it's there because you just 0:47:31.750 --> 0:47:35.390 don't see it, but it's making things more efficient and better. 0:47:35.390 --> 0:47:37.870 But I would say there's still a lot of growth. 0:47:37.870 --> 0:47:43.070 And even in the DNA origami community. I mean, 2006 0:47:43.110 --> 0:47:46.270 was when it first that technique first came out. And 0:47:46.270 --> 0:47:49.270 people could make, you know, simple structures. They would make 0:47:49.310 --> 0:47:52.870 2D static structures. Then they made 3D, you know, static structures. 0:47:52.870 --> 0:47:56.069 Then by like about 2015, we started seeing more like 0:47:56.110 --> 0:47:58.379 dynamic structures, but no one knew how to move it. 0:47:58.380 --> 0:48:00.500 And so now we're starting to get into the time 0:48:00.500 --> 0:48:02.259 where people are like, oh, we can actually move the 0:48:02.260 --> 0:48:04.779 parts on these machines. And in order to use a 0:48:04.780 --> 0:48:06.779 machine as a machine, right, where it can do work, 0:48:06.780 --> 0:48:08.900 you have to be able to move them. And so 0:48:09.260 --> 0:48:12.419 we're really just now starting to see that. And of course, 0:48:12.460 --> 0:48:15.580 especially in medicine, there's a lot more higher standards you 0:48:15.580 --> 0:48:17.219 have to do before it gets into it. So a 0:48:17.219 --> 0:48:19.180 lot of even the stuff I was mentioning in like 0:48:19.180 --> 0:48:22.580 Doctor Tours Lab, that stuff is all things that like 0:48:22.620 --> 0:48:25.700 they're doing clinical testing in mice and things like that 0:48:25.700 --> 0:48:27.940 or doing, you know, tests on petri dishes. You know, 0:48:27.980 --> 0:48:29.899 we're going to test it with bacteria that's grown on 0:48:29.900 --> 0:48:32.340 a film, right? But not in a body or anything 0:48:32.340 --> 0:48:34.819 like this. There's so much testing that you have to 0:48:34.820 --> 0:48:38.180 do initially before it gets into there. But even in 0:48:38.219 --> 0:48:41.260 medicine right now, like, I mean, they use nanoparticles for 0:48:41.300 --> 0:48:44.980 MRI contrast and things like this. You probably didn't realize 0:48:44.980 --> 0:48:47.340 maybe you got contrast and you didn't know, oh, there's 0:48:47.340 --> 0:48:49.980 nanoparticles in there that allowed them to image this better. 0:48:49.980 --> 0:48:52.859 So it's definitely already affecting our society. But I do 0:48:52.860 --> 0:48:55.419 think there's still a lot of growth and potential that 0:48:55.420 --> 0:48:56.060 it has. 0:48:56.180 --> 0:48:59.609 Doctor Stephanie Laubach is associate professor of physics here at 0:48:59.610 --> 0:49:04.250 Hillsdale College. Talk about her work in nanotechnology and magnetism. 0:49:04.290 --> 0:49:06.370 Doctor Laubach, thanks so much for joining us here on 0:49:06.370 --> 0:49:08.530 the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. 0:49:08.770 --> 0:49:09.770 Yeah, thanks so much. 0:49:10.130 --> 0:49:13.130 That will wrap up this edition of the Radio Free 0:49:13.170 --> 0:49:17.130 Hillsdale Hour. Our thanks to Don Hodel. His memoir called 0:49:17.130 --> 0:49:21.049 To Serve My Path to President Reagan's Cabinet and Beyond. 0:49:21.210 --> 0:49:25.290 And Doctor Stephanie Laubach from Hillsdale Physics Department. Remember, you 0:49:25.290 --> 0:49:28.450 can hear new episodes every week on this station. You 0:49:28.450 --> 0:49:31.410 also can find extended versions of some of our interviews, 0:49:31.410 --> 0:49:37.370 or listen any time to the podcast. Find it@podcast.hillsdale.edu or 0:49:37.370 --> 0:49:42.170 wherever you get your audio. Until next week, I'm Scott Bertrand, 0:49:42.210 --> 0:49:45.930 and this has been the radio free Hillsdale Hour.