S1: From the historic campus of Hillsdale College in Hillsdale, Michigan,
S1: where the good, the true and the beautiful are taught,
S1: nurtured and honored. This is the radio free Hillsdale Hour,
S1: bringing the activity and education of the college to listeners
S1: across the country.
S2: These works of art are wonders. They're beautiful, and boy,
S2: are they so instructive. And we need them if we're
S2: going to understand ourselves and life much better, much more profoundly.
S3: This is your host, Scott Bertram. Welcome to the Radio
S3: Free Hillsdale Hour. Part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network.
S3: That was Doctor Stephen Smith from Hillsdale English Department. He's
S3: also your teacher for the new Hillsdale College online course,
S3: The Iliad. We go in depth about that on today's program.
S3: Also later on, Doctor Samuel Lehrer, recent graduate from the
S3: Van Andel Graduate School of Statesmanship here at Hillsdale College,
S3: and his dissertation on James Monroe will discuss in a bit. First,
S3: we're joined by Doctor Stephen Smith. He is dean of Humanities,
S3: Temple Family chair in English Literature and professor of English
S3: here at Hillsdale College. Doctor Smith, thanks for joining us.
S2: It's great to be here, Scott. Thank you for having me.
S3: You're also the teacher for the new Hillsdale College online course,
S3: The Iliad, which is available now at hillsdale.edu/course, NEWCOURSE. We
S3: have the Odyssey now. We have the Iliad available, both
S3: of them at that URL. So why does the Iliad
S3: still remain such an important place to begin or even
S3: continue in education? In the Western literary tradition, we asked
S3: a very similar question to Doctor Whalen about the Odyssey.
S3: What about the Iliad?
S2: I am a dyed in the wool Iliad lover? I
S2: know a lot of people are crazy about the Odyssey.
S2: I have always just loved the first. And anyone out
S2: there who is enjoying the worldwide fervor over the Odyssey
S2: needs to make their way directly back to the. We
S2: need to go back to the Iliad, baby. This. Where. Well,
S2: not where it all starts, but where Homer starts. You know, um,
S2: the Iliad stands at the head of the epic tradition,
S2: and one of the best ways to experience the full
S2: power and beauty of poetry and what it can teach
S2: us about nature, about character, about reality, is through the
S2: epic tradition. So why not begin with rage? Goddess sing
S2: the rage of Achilles, the Iliad. Go to the Odyssey.
S2: And then then? Then you're off and running. Virgil's Aeneid,
S2: Dante's Divine Comedy, Paradise Lost. If you're truly ambitious, War
S2: and Peace is lurking in the 19th century, one of
S2: the most magnificent books in the world, and a profound
S2: engagement with Homer. Unless I miss my guess.
S3: Now, before we get to a little more about the
S3: course itself and what's discussed, what story does the Iliad
S3: actually tell? People might know about Trojan War? Achilles? Helen.
S3: What are they going to discover when they actually open
S3: the book and read Homer.
S2: They will most likely be surprised by the focus of Homer,
S2: which is one of his great gifts. Aristotle saw this
S2: unmistakably in the poetics. This guy knows how to focus
S2: a story. I've taught the poem for many, many years,
S2: and students always wonder, why does it start so deep
S2: into the war? And why does it end before the
S2: war does? Like, you know, it's almost like you want
S2: the Encyclopaedia Britannica version of the Trojan War. How did
S2: this all get started? When did they arrive? How many
S2: years have they been there? What Homer does is he
S2: focuses our attention on the rage of Achilles and the
S2: will of Zeus over a around a 50 day period
S2: in the ten year war. And so it's wonderfully focused.
S2: It's intensely dramatic. It's as great as any Shakespearean tragedy
S2: you'll ever read. An unforgettable poem, and it derives much
S2: of its power and its intensity from that focus, from
S2: that choice of Homer, to focus our attention like this
S2: on the rage of Achilles and the will of Zeus.
S3: That is your first lecture, The Rage of Achilles and
S3: the online course, The Iliad, hillsdale.edu/course. That rage of Achilles
S3: provides the structure for a lot of this. What should
S3: students understand about Achilles at the outset of the Iliad?
S2: Well, Achilles is one of the major characters of the poem,
S2: and the poem is about, yes, his rage. It's important
S2: to understand this isn't, you know, a poem about some
S2: guy's temper tantrum or something like that. Or, you know,
S2: he lost his cool in traffic. It's about a rage
S2: that's described as murderous and doomed that cost the Achaeans
S2: the Greeks loss upon bitter loss. It hurled down to
S2: the house of death so many great souls, brave fighter souls,
S2: and left their bodies. You know the Feast of Birds,
S2: as the opening puts it. So this is a pretty
S2: intense form of rage that overtakes this gifted warrior who
S2: is the son of a mortal man and an immortal goddess.
S2: So Achilles is a remarkable figure, one of the most
S2: unforgettable figures in literature. Don't believe anything you've heard against him.
S2: You've got to get to know this guy is powerful,
S2: unforgettable story about his heart, his mind, his desires, his choices,
S2: his rage. And a poem ends suitably enough, when the
S2: rage ends. The poem actually makes tremendous and deep sense
S2: as a story, and it focuses on the. And one
S2: of the first things you wonder about when you open a.
S2: How could the rage of Achilles be the focus of
S2: an entire story? What is it about this rage? What
S2: makes it so worthy of the attention of Homer? What's
S2: going on with this guy in his soul?
S3: The other early lectures help introduce students to Helen Paris. Hector,
S3: the defender of Troy. What do those characters add to
S3: our understanding of the war, in particular, its side effects
S3: on marriage, on family, on the home?
S2: Well, the Greeks are on this lonely beach before the
S2: ski and gates of Troy, and we get to know
S2: all the Greeks in the poem and of course, the
S2: Trojans as well. I mean, I can't help but smile
S2: when you say those names. I mean, I feel like
S2: I've known these people for my entire working life. Helen
S2: Paris and Hector and Andromache and Priam, the Trojan side.
S2: Homer gives full humanity to them and brings out, you know,
S2: the kind of civilization level clash that's at the heart
S2: of the poem. But I think, you know, with Paris
S2: and Helen. Oh my goodness. You know, this is the
S2: affair at the heart of the war. And those are
S2: two of the most unforgettable characters in the poem, in
S2: a way. They pursue a kind of glory that is
S2: different than the glory that Achilles and and the others
S2: are fighting for. It's associated with beauty, with erotic love.
S2: And it's one of the more powerful forces in the
S2: poem and disruptive forces. And then Hector is the great
S2: kind of mighty opposite of Achilles, the defender of Troy.
S2: His heart races to help his city, to save his family.
S2: And some of the greatest scenes in the poem involve Hector,
S2: including the meeting with his wife, his meetings with his
S2: brother Paris, and, of course, the final duel in the poem.
S2: Spoiler alert it's all. It's big on Big Baby. It's
S2: all headed toward Achilles versus Hector for all the marbles.
S3: You've had a few thousand years to catch up, so
S3: we don't need to give the spoiler alert. I think
S3: we're I think we're gonna be okay. Doctor Steven Smith
S3: with us. He is your teacher for the new Hillsdale
S3: Online course. Hopefully you've taken the Odyssey. Now time for
S3: the Iliad. You can find it at hillsdale.edu/course. One of
S3: the major questions running through this course is how much
S3: responsibility belongs to the gods and how much belongs to
S3: the characters themselves. How does Homer get us thinking about
S3: fate and free choice and personal responsibility?
S2: Well, right from that famous opening, the two subjects of
S2: the poem, if you ask me, are the rage of
S2: Achilles and the will of Zeus moving toward its end.
S2: So the poem is, in a way, a study of
S2: the will of Achilles and the will of Zeus. And
S2: so we're going to get the human side and the
S2: divine side, both at work profoundly and powerfully in the poem.
S2: Your question is a great one about personal responsibility. I'll
S2: make a bridge to the Odyssey if you. If you
S2: go to the first pages of the Odyssey, you will
S2: hear Zeus complain. Shameless. The way these mortals blame the
S2: gods for everything you know, especially when through their own
S2: reckless ways, you know, they compound the misery beyond the
S2: proper share. So Homer is all over the human tendency
S2: to locate responsibility anywhere but in the human will. I
S2: suppose we're willing to locate responsibility there when we've done
S2: something glorious. Sure. But when we've done something foolish, that's
S2: where the gods come in. He can. He can blame
S2: them for years in class with the students. You know,
S2: I've joked that if Zeus ever, you know, had a
S2: t shirt line, it would probably read don't blame me. Um, but.
S2: So he's working for his end. Achilles is working for
S2: his ends. And Homer shows us the human being really
S2: struggling with this issue of personal responsibility. Scott with just saying,
S2: like I did that I was a fool and kind
S2: of going from there. Usually there's a lot more zig
S2: zagging going on. And Agamemnon, who has really surged to
S2: worldwide fame because of the Odyssey film and his depiction
S2: in it, he really struggles with this one. You know,
S2: he he he made a mess of things in book one.
S2: He needs to try to set things right, but he
S2: does tend to default to blaming his madness on the gods.
S3: Hector and Achilles are both great warriors in the Iliad,
S3: but they're very different men. As we move through the course,
S3: what might we want to notice about these two competing
S3: pictures of heroism?
S2: Well, Achilles is the brilliant swift runner, the greatest Greek
S2: warrior his arms have bore the brunt of the fighting.
S2: He's won great glory through it. When his honor and
S2: his sense of justice is violated. At the beginning of
S2: the poem, the whole thing is launched. So he is intense,
S2: lover of of class and honor. He also has friendship
S2: and a regard for the Greeks as well. So he's
S2: a he's actually a fully rounded character. Hector is associated
S2: with the defense of Troy. Again, that famous line, his
S2: heart races to help the fellow Trojans. So he tends
S2: to be associated with the defense of the city, with family,
S2: with his marriage and his and his infant son. Now,
S2: all that said, what unites the two men is just
S2: as interesting because both men have been trained and educated
S2: and formed, you know, to intensely desire glory. And that's
S2: part of what will bring them into that final conflict
S2: near the end of the poem. So it was a
S2: very rich presentation of the two great warriors. One Greek,
S2: one Trojan.
S3: Doctor Stephen Smith with us, your teacher for the new
S3: Hillsdale course on the Iliad. hillsdale.edu/course. You speak of glory
S3: and Achilles is given a famous choice between a short
S3: life and everlasting glory and a long life without it.
S3: How does that choice help organize some of the big
S3: questions that will encounter throughout the course?
S2: That question is that that decision, I should say, is
S2: at the heart of the Achilles story. You know, we're
S2: in year ten in the Iliad of the war, and
S2: he will bring up the choice that he made and
S2: is making to remain at war, pursuing glory, knowing that
S2: it will bring about his death. And the alternative, which
S2: was that long life, but with obscurity. It's funny, in
S2: the poem, Scott, he he's been there for ten years.
S2: He's made his choice and he keeps he keeps coming
S2: back to it almost like he could. He could leave
S2: at any moment. Like, I can take my ships. I
S2: can get out of here. I can go back home.
S2: You know, I don't have to be here. But he
S2: stays on that beach, and he will die there. So
S2: that choice he makes, um, is finally. It is his
S2: final decision. But Homer's greatness is to show us how
S2: he grows. Mhm. Um, across the Iliad. And as he
S2: approaches his own death.
S3: Yeah. So Achilles grows. He's consumed by rage at the beginning.
S3: And at the end, he's learned something about, uh, self-control
S3: and virtue and mercy, too. How should we understand this
S3: transformation that takes place between book one and book 24?
S2: Well, it takes, you know, it takes, you know, 22
S2: books or so, even even 24 books to come to
S2: the end of the rage. Achilles is tough, relentless. He
S2: becomes something like death itself. Close to the end of
S2: the poem. He fights a river God. He wants to
S2: strike at Apollo. He's mourning his friend. I mean, the
S2: rage reaches a really extreme point, but Homer does not
S2: leave us there. One of the big surprises in the
S2: poem is book 24, easily one of the most beautiful
S2: books of poetry in the entire world. And that finale
S2: in which Achilles and the King of Troy come together
S2: over Hector's body. Spoiler alert is what brings about this
S2: surprising ending and what looks like a moment of growth.
S2: I mean, Priam wonders over Achilles as he decides to
S2: give the body of Hector back. And I think that
S2: what Priam is wondering over is what is truly godlike quality,
S2: his virtue at that moment, and the virtue is distinct
S2: from the virtue he's displayed. You know, being a one
S2: man death machine on the plain of Troy, it's as
S2: you suggest, self government, self control. He can hold himself back.
S2: He seems for a moment, like. Like a free man
S2: capable of some other action than just raging and raging
S2: and raging and raging.
S3: Is there one lecture or one part of a lecture,
S3: even in this course that you enjoy teaching? Because students
S3: come away seeing the Iliad differently afterward, and you have
S3: experience having taught this countless times to our Hillsdale students.
S2: I was thinking about that, Scott. And I'm like, oh yes,
S2: book one, book six, book nine, book 16 book. I'm
S2: one of those people. I love this poem. So I
S2: have many, many favorite moments. And certainly book 24 is incredible.
S2: The Funeral Games of Achilles and Patroclus are remarkable. The
S2: embassy to Achilles in book nine is must see TV.
S2: It's a remarkable part of the poem. But you know,
S2: I love the moment when his mother comes to him
S2: after everything he's wanted has come to pass. You know,
S2: Achilles prays in book one that he be exalted and
S2: the Greeks be mowed down because he's been so dishonored.
S2: And when, when, when things have gone. Just as he
S2: prayed the will of Zeus. Right. But not exactly as
S2: he had expected. This is totally a meditation on be
S2: careful what you pray for. Sure. When you get to
S2: this moment, his mother comes. Achilles is in agony. His
S2: friend is dead. All these things have happened and his
S2: mother comes to him and says, son, why are you
S2: in tears? Why are you crying? Olympian Zeus has fulfilled
S2: your prayer just as you raised your hands in book one.
S2: You've gotten everything you wanted. 000, it's so painful. You know,
S2: it's wonderful. But, I mean, he's going to grow from
S2: that zero point. Yeah. To to the ending in book 24,
S2: but not without some mega rage in between. I'm just
S2: telling you.
S3: I already know the answer to the question, I think.
S3: But I'm still going to ask, are you still learning
S3: and enjoying different parts of the Iliad each time you
S3: read and teach this to students?
S2: Yes, that's a great question. With Shakespeare, with Dante, with Homer,
S2: with Genesis, with Paradise Lost, whatever these books are so
S2: far beyond us that they continually surprise and instruct. You
S2: can teach Homer's Iliad for 20 years and come back
S2: to it, and it is as fresh as the dawn,
S2: and you see things you did not see before. I
S2: laugh sometimes using the books you know, in class I'll
S2: be rereading, prepping for class. And I'll see in my
S2: in my book, a whole unmarked page. And now, you know, on,
S2: you know, round 20 or whatever it is. I'm like,
S2: that's the most important thing of all. I didn't even
S2: have it marked. It's that kind of work. These these
S2: works of art are wonders. They're beautiful. And boy, are
S2: they so instructive and illuminating of nature, of character, of reality.
S2: They're truly, you know, at our service. And we need
S2: them if we're going to understand ourselves and life much better,
S2: much more profoundly.
S3: Doctor Stephen Smith is dean of Humanities, Temple Family chair
S3: in English Literature and professor of English here at Hillsdale College.
S3: He's also your teacher for the new Hillsdale College online course,
S3: The iliad@hillsdale.edu slash hillsdale.edu slash, NEWCOURSE. Doctor Smith, thanks so
S3: much for joining us here on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour.
S2: It's been my pleasure, Scott.
S3: Thank you. Up next, Samuel Lair joins us, newly minted doctor,
S3: graduate of the Van Andel School of Statesmanship here at
S3: Hillsdale College. We'll talk about the political thought and statesmanship
S3: of one James Monroe. I'm Scott Bertram. This is the
S3: radio free Hillsdale Hour. Welcome back to the Radio free
S3: Hillsdale Hour. I'm Scott Bertram. Be sure to find this show.
S3: Older episodes of this program, plus tons of great Hillsdale
S3: College audio at podcast dot dot edu or wherever you
S3: get your audio. Look for the Larry Arnn Show, Imprimis,
S3: Hillsdale Dialogues, and more. We're joined by Doctor Samuel Lehrer.
S3: He's a former director of the center for American Education
S3: at the Idaho Freedom Foundation. A recent graduate of the
S3: Van Andel School of Statesmanship here at Hillsdale College as well.
S3: Doctor Lehrer, thanks for joining us.
S4: Thank you. It's a pleasure to be with you.
S3: Talking today about your dissertation work at the School of
S3: Statesmanship on the political thought and statesmanship of James Monroe.
S3: You argue that Monroe was one of the most important
S3: statesmen of our founding era. What role has he played
S3: in our understanding of the founders and why, perhaps, has
S3: he been a bit overlooked?
S4: Well, my scholarship try to tackle was the fact that
S4: he actually hasn't played a significant role in our understanding
S4: of the founding era, which is a massive, I think,
S4: injustice from historical studies. John Quincy Adams, during his eulogy
S4: of Monroe, talks about how he's the only man whose
S4: life is associated with every single major event of the
S4: founding era for a whole half century. You know, he
S4: joins the American Revolution at 17, receives a near mortal
S4: wound at the Battle of Trenton and is involved in
S4: practically every single major political event in the founding era.
S4: From then on out, you know, he he's involved in
S4: the ratification of the Constitution in Virginia. He actually has
S4: a unique kind of he's one of the only founders,
S4: you know, the only president to not sign the Constitution,
S4: which makes him kind of a unique figure in that regards,
S4: even beyond the constitutional era and the early 1790s. You know,
S4: he's ambassador to France during the George Washington administration. He's
S4: governor of Virginia during the revolution of 1800. He's secretary
S4: of state of James Madison during the war of 1812.
S4: Then he oversees as president the Missouri Compromise. And so
S4: he's really central to all these major events. And while
S4: he's not necessarily always the number one guy on the stage,
S4: so to speak, he's always in the background, he's always there.
S4: And so I argue that if you really want to
S4: understand the founding, particularly through the eyes of great men,
S4: that Monroe is one. You could do that through. You know,
S4: there's founders like Hamilton and James Wilson, who we all
S4: recognize as being significant and actually have a greater grasp
S4: on our national consciousness. But their influence wanes by 18,
S4: the early 1800s for many of them. Right. Monroe is there,
S4: right all the way through the end of it. And
S4: so I believe that really, if you look at Monroe,
S4: he represents a mature understanding of the founding in the
S4: same way that the founders learn some things. So they're
S4: prudent men. At the end of the day, when Roe
S4: is the the archetype of that. Right. He goes from
S4: the starry eyed patriot of 1776 to the mature statesman
S4: of 1824, reflecting on the future of the nation. And
S4: I think fundamentally that's the greatest insight he offers to
S4: the study of the founding.
S3: Your dissertation argues that Monroe saw the American Republic as
S3: the best regime in principle, theory and practice. What exactly
S3: did he mean by that?
S4: Yeah. So Monroe was deeply learned, and he read Aristotle.
S4: He read Polybius, he read Locke, Montesquieu. And one of
S4: the big things that really struck him and he and
S4: you see this in some of his early writings during
S4: the constitutional ratification. Is that okay? America has unique has
S4: a unique destiny here, he says. It's widely. He comments
S4: in his political treatise how it's widely regarded that American
S4: Revolution is the most important event in human history. And
S4: because it's the first regime to be predicated on the
S4: fundamental truth of natural equality. But it's also, in a
S4: lot of ways, he viewed America as redeeming the cause
S4: of self-government for the world and for the West. And
S4: but when he looks back, he thinks about how Athens failed.
S4: Sparta failed. Rome failed, right? That self-governments have also been
S4: often fickle. And so, you know, America is the best
S4: regime for Monroe because it is the first regime predicated
S4: on natural equality, but it's also the best regime in practice,
S4: he believes, because it solved some of these fundamental issues
S4: regarding faction and stability that he believes ate at the
S4: core of the old republics. And it did that through
S4: our constitutional order, which is quite fascinating for Monroe, because,
S4: as I mentioned, he voted against the ratification of the
S4: Constitution originally. But by the time he leaves the presidency
S4: and returns to the plow, so to speak, he's reflecting
S4: on America and the things that it overcame. And he
S4: firmly believes that lesser regimes like the French Republic would
S4: have succumbed to the sort of pressures that America dealt
S4: with during the founding. He equates that to the strength
S4: of our constitutional order and the wisdom of the Constitution itself.
S4: And so America is a great balance between theory and
S4: practice for Monroe. It's the best regime and principle because
S4: it's predicated on natural equality, but it's also the best
S4: regime in practice, because it's created a stable constitutional order
S4: that allows liberty to thrive.
S3: Talking with Doctor Samuel Lair, his dissertation on the political
S3: thought and statesmanship of James Monroe. You describe Monroe as
S3: believing that human beings are naturally political. How did that
S3: help shape his view of citizenship and of self-government?
S4: Yes. Monroe read Aristotle and Aristotle is the one that
S4: kind of begins this notion of American man as a
S4: political animal. Monroe believes the same thing. He talks about
S4: in his political treatise, how men are essentially controlled by
S4: moral causes. He says that they're effectually creatures of circumstances
S4: influenced by the times within which they they live. And
S4: that's important for Monroe, because it speaks to the trueness
S4: of Republican government, right? Man's not meant merely to be
S4: ruled right without also being ruled in turn. Right. So yes,
S4: he is. And this goes to actually the central thesis
S4: of his book. He describes it, or the title of
S4: his book is The People The Sovereign's right. And that's
S4: because the people hold the sovereignty in the American regime.
S4: He talks about how sovereignty in the American context is
S4: a kind of dual character, right? You're both the ruler
S4: of the American regime as a citizen, because sovereignty flows
S4: from you, but you're also obeying the laws of the
S4: Constitution of the American Republic itself. And so he viewed
S4: man's political nature as perfectly in accordance with what the
S4: founders are trying to create when they establish the Constitution.
S4: But he also viewed it as essentially tied to other
S4: facets of American institutions, namely education. He's one of the
S4: largest proponents of education in the American founding, and this
S4: notion of man as a political animal deeply informed his
S4: views on education. It's why he promoted widely. Public education
S4: is because he believed that you had to take that kernel, right,
S4: that that base nature that man has and try to
S4: help see it fulfilled. So that way he could truly
S4: become a self-governing citizen of a republic. There's a term
S4: he uses during his first inaugural, which I find very fascinating.
S4: And he says, our government is emphatically a system of self-government. Right.
S4: And when you read Monroe's writings, you see that he
S4: views these term encompassing. Right? We're a self-government because the
S4: American people control themselves. They're not beholden to some foreign empire.
S4: It's a self-government because the American people rule themselves via
S4: essentially a republican institutions. Correct. But it's also a self-government
S4: in the sense that every man rules himself, right? He's moral.
S4: And so it's all those things together that make man
S4: self-governing and fundamentally political.
S3: Doctor Samuel Leir with us talking about the political thought
S3: and statesmanship of James Monroe. One of the themes in
S3: your dissertation is Monroe's concern with preserving the Republic. What
S3: threats to the Republic worried him the most?
S4: In his political treatise, Monroe says that there's two threats
S4: that threaten the preservation of the republic consolidation and disunion.
S4: And he viewed both of these through the lens in
S4: which he saw them as a political operator. In addition
S4: to I want to be political theorist, so to speak,
S4: during the 1790s. You know, he's one of the major
S4: political figures in the Democratic Republican Party, alongside Jefferson and
S4: alongside Madison. And he viewed the Federalists of his time,
S4: although he walks this back eventually as moving the republic
S4: towards a consolidated monarchy. Right. So this notion that we're
S4: going to erode the constitutional order predicated on federalism and
S4: that we're all going to centralize power into the into
S4: the executive, right. So the state powers will be delegated
S4: to the federal government, and then eventually Congress's powers will
S4: be delegated into the executive, and you're going to have
S4: a monarchy. And this is something that he learned also
S4: through his study of the ancient republics, he noticed that
S4: both Athens and Rome had a tendency to centralize power
S4: and strong men when they were threatened. But Monroe also,
S4: as he came along, started to realize, particularly during the
S4: war of 1812, that America was also threatened by a
S4: different problem. And that's what ultimately the Union succumbed to
S4: during the Civil War, which was this union. And he
S4: first encountered this during the Hartford Convention near the end
S4: of the war of 1812, where several Federalist strongholds in
S4: Massachusetts and Connecticut and elsewhere kind of flirted with the
S4: idea of succession, but then it really hit him full
S4: bore during the Missouri crisis, and that's when he fully
S4: started to understand that like, oh, there's something else here
S4: that we have to be aware of. And so his presidency,
S4: in a lot of ways, can be understood as trying
S4: to tamp down these two competing tendencies in the American republic,
S4: one towards consolidation, which he tried to do through proper
S4: Republican management, so to speak, but also through unity, right.
S4: Trying to unify the American people around our common sentiments,
S4: rooted in the Declaration of Independence, to prevent us from
S4: tearing apart in a way that eventually did during the
S4: Civil War.
S3: That's Doctor Samuel Lehr. His dissertation on James Monroe will
S3: continue discussing in a moment. First, I want to remind you,
S3: if you were with us for the first part of
S3: the program, you know, there's a new Hillsdale College online
S3: course on the Iliad. It's a tag team with the Odyssey,
S3: both available right now at hillsdale.edu/course. The Odyssey, taught by
S3: Doctor Ben Whalen from our English department. The Iliad, taught
S3: by Doctor Stephen Smith from our English department here at Hillsdale.
S3: Homer's Iliad is the first epic poem introducing students in
S3: this course to the origin of Western literature and telling
S3: the tale of Achilles rage during the Trojan War. It
S3: looks at the complexity of human nature choices men must
S3: make as we face our mortality and the vices and
S3: virtues to which those choices lead. Sign up for the
S3: online course on The Iliad at hillsdale.edu/course. That's hillsdale.edu/ewcourse. We
S3: continue with Doctor Samuel Lair, recent graduate from Hillsdale Van
S3: Andel School of Statesmanship, his dissertation on the political thought
S3: and statesmanship of James Monroe. Doctor lair something you write
S3: about is how Monroe applied these principles to issues like
S3: slavery and the American Indians. How did he reconcile those
S3: issues with some of the ideals found in the declaration?
S4: Monroe on the Indian question, so to speak, is particularly
S4: interesting because, you know, that's a very controversial topic, right?
S4: It's hard to look back on and view nuance in
S4: the Indian removal policies of Jackson. But when you read
S4: Monroe and you read the founders, generally, you actually start
S4: to realize that the founders weren't these bigots, you know,
S4: rubbing their hands together, trying to think about how they
S4: could steal land from the Native Americans. Monroe actually had
S4: a profound respect for Native American culture. He calls them
S4: free and high minded in his political treatise, and he
S4: actually views Native American society in its kind of proto
S4: republican institutions as a fundamental proof of the Republican thesis
S4: that man is by nature free and equal, but he also,
S4: you know, as a Lockean, so to speak, believes fundamentally
S4: in this notion that property belongs to the rational and industrious.
S4: When Jackson seizes Florida, he talks about in one of
S4: his addresses that. Or it's actually a letter to Madison.
S4: That land must be managed in such a way that
S4: it provides the greatest benefit to the greatest number. Right.
S4: So that we can essentially follow the first commandment to
S4: be fruitful and multiply. And so Monroe is trying to
S4: wrestle with these two things, right? Essentially, the natural rights
S4: of the Native Americans, along with his deep respect for
S4: their culture, but also this other notion that, so to speak, that, well,
S4: we have this Lockean mandate in order to develop this,
S4: you know, unproductive land in the American West. And the
S4: way he approaches it is, you know, actually much more
S4: nuanced than the Jackson administration eventually did. He was an
S4: early supporter of so-called Indian removal, but he viewed it
S4: as a more humane policy. He didn't view it as
S4: a greedy policy. He actually believed, fundamentally that this was
S4: the best way to secure Native Americans in their way
S4: of life in many ways, but also their existence. You
S4: read his writings, and he worries deeply about the influence
S4: civilization has on, you know, kind of pre-civilized peoples, right?
S4: They're not used to the vices and the luxuries of
S4: alcohol and jewelry and all these sort of things. And
S4: he thinks it can be corrupting to people who are
S4: unprepared for it. In the same way he thinks it's
S4: corrupted Europe. And so his administration, along with John C Calhoun,
S4: was his secretary of war, kind of developed the early
S4: plan for Indian removal based on this notion that we're
S4: going to provide equal and just terms to the Native Americans.
S4: We're going to give them fair compensation for their land
S4: in the West, and then we're going to relocate them
S4: west to the of the Mississippi. And in turn, we're
S4: going to introduce into agriculture. We're going to introduce them
S4: to private property. We're going to develop schools for them.
S4: We're going to develop institutions of government. So that way
S4: they can understand how Republican governments are supposed to work.
S4: And actually, his his ultimate vision was that he hoped
S4: that this so proto Indian state he was creating would
S4: eventually become part of the union. And one of the
S4: key facets, I think, that Monroe hits on, which distinguishes
S4: himself from Jackson, is that while he develops this plan,
S4: he qualifies it in the sense that we cannot do
S4: this without the consent of the Native American tribes. We
S4: cannot force them at gunpoint to move from their lands.
S4: They have to recognize themselves that this would be good
S4: for them and good for the union, and that we
S4: have a destiny to be part of the same national
S4: republic together. And so it's kind of an interesting, so
S4: to speak, alternative history, to wonder if it was Monroe
S4: who was president in 1830 during Indian removal, rather than
S4: Jackson to see if the policy would have been handled
S4: much more humanely in a way that conformed to justice. But,
S4: you know, it's it's a very nuanced and difficult question
S4: to talk about. But I think, Monroe, you know, when
S4: you look at his writings, you look at his approach
S4: to it, he does really try to balance the principles
S4: of the declaration with just the prudence of this really
S4: pressing issue.
S3: Talking with Doctor Samuel Blair about his dissertation work on
S3: the political thought and statesmanship of James Monroe. Monroe was
S3: deeply skeptical of political parties. Why did he think that
S3: parties posed a danger to constitutional government? And why did
S3: he believe that a healthy republic would be just fine
S3: without them?
S4: Monroe's understanding of political parties was deeply influenced by the
S4: ancient political writers on the subject of faction. Aristotle, Polybius
S4: and others. And fundamentally, he viewed political parties as an
S4: extension of the old mixed regime, so to speak. The
S4: constitutional order promoted by Aristotle and Polybius and Cicero and
S4: others that talked about how we need to balance the
S4: interests of the few, the many and the one which
S4: you kind of see in the Roman Republic. What you
S4: saw at that time contemporaneously with Monroe and the Great Britain,
S4: and he viewed political parties as essentially engines of faction
S4: in that sense. Right. If we promote political parties, we're
S4: always going to have be pitting a party for the
S4: few against the party of the many, which is just
S4: going to undermine the civil harmony and the concord of
S4: America's republic. And I think one of the most fascinating
S4: parts of his presidency is his efforts to suppress this.
S4: His national tours. He's actually the first president to tour
S4: the United States. And there's this really striking image during
S4: it when he when he enters Boston during the 4th
S4: of July, and he goes to Boston Commons. And there's
S4: this is a time where, you know, Massachusetts is just
S4: about to secede or it was thinking about seceding during
S4: the war of 1812. It's the Federalist stronghold. It didn't
S4: vote for him, but he viewed this as an opportunity
S4: for unity. And when he enters into Boston Commons, there's
S4: a few hundred school children, and all the boys, I believe,
S4: are in red roses, and all the girls are in
S4: white roses. And for people who know their history of
S4: the war of the roses, the red and the white
S4: rose are the Tudor rose. It's the rose of unity
S4: that the Tudor household developed is to show that the
S4: British kingdom was united. And that was a symbol from
S4: the Federalist to Monroe, saying that the old distinctions between
S4: Federalist and Republican are no more. We need to unify
S4: under this common banner of Americans the same way you
S4: did in 1776. Monroe saw in that brief instant during
S4: the era of good feelings, that actually some unity is possible. Right?
S4: We can do this. We're the greatest nation on earth, right?
S4: We don't need to resort to these old modes and
S4: structures of the ancient republics to depend on the quote
S4: he uses in his in his treatise, is that we
S4: don't always have to be threatened by the bayonets. Right.
S4: In order for us to work together. Right. Man is
S4: by nature, he thinks, kind of altruistic and political, right?
S4: In the sense that we want to work together. We're
S4: inclined to be in communities. Um, and he truly believed
S4: that by a firm, although it's romantic, you know, it's
S4: still nice, which is that if we firmly adhere to
S4: the principles of the Declaration of Independence, we firmly try
S4: to live out the spirit of 1776 that we can
S4: kind of overcome, so to speak, some of the worst
S4: parts of our nature. And the last facet of it
S4: that for him made it possible, not merely romantic, is
S4: that our constitutional order allowed for these things to happen. Right?
S4: We didn't we don't need to pit the poor against
S4: the wealthy because we have the separation of powers and
S4: you have the executive will check the legislature and the
S4: Supreme Court will check the other branches. You have the
S4: state governments checking the federal governments. And so just kind
S4: of allow the process to work out trust in the
S4: process in the system that the founders created, and focus
S4: on uniting the nation. That was Monroe's fundamental belief, and
S4: I think he actually accomplished it for a short amount
S4: of time.
S3: So if we look at Monroe, we know he emphasizes
S3: civic virtue, public education institutions that prepare citizens for self-government.
S3: What lessons can we perhaps take from that for modern America?
S4: I think the greatest lesson you can take from Monroe
S4: is on his view of civic virtue and public education.
S4: Right now, our education system is in very much a
S4: bad way, with few exceptions. And Monroe essentially argued for
S4: what we would call today patriotic education education, which is
S4: primarily directed towards the formation of a citizen capable of self-government,
S4: and that kind of cuts against many of the modes
S4: and orders that currently go through most education systems in
S4: this country. The easiest one, you know, even beyond some
S4: of the controversial topics regarding Dei, you know, just on
S4: the base level of many states still view public education
S4: or education generally as workforce development, right? That the primary
S4: goal for for education is to get you a job.
S3: Mhm.
S4: Monroe would recognize that as partly true, but you have
S4: to remember what makes public education actually just right. It's
S4: not that you're kind of centrally planning the economy, it's
S4: that we're all in this together and that when you
S4: go to the ballot box, your vote has a fundamental
S4: and serious impact on the rights of other citizens. And
S4: so we all have this shared common interest in ensuring
S4: that everyone has the basic virtue necessary for self-government. And
S4: I think really, if we looked at how Monroe and frankly,
S4: the other Founding Fathers as well, talked about education, it
S4: provides a really timeless model, right? We're always worried about
S4: 21st century education. How do we deal with education and
S4: the advent of AI and all these things where it's no,
S4: we if we go back to how the founders understood it, right.
S4: We are a public education, as Aristotle recognized, has to
S4: be directed towards the former regime. And so our first
S4: and primary obligation should be preparing citizens for this great
S4: duty that they have to be citizens of our constitutional order.
S4: And I think that's probably one of the greatest lessons
S4: that Monroe has for us today.
S3: Doctor Samuel Leir is former director of the center for
S3: American Education at Idaho Freedom Foundation, also a recent graduate
S3: at the Van Angeles School of Statesmanship here at Hillsdale College,
S3: and his dissertation work on the political thought and statesmanship
S3: of James Monroe. Doctor Lehrer, thanks so much for joining
S3: us here on Radio Free Hillsdale Hour.
S4: Thank you. It was a pleasure. Was all mine.
S3: That will wrap up this edition of the Radio Free
S3: Hillsdale Hour. Our thanks to Doctor Steven Smith, your teacher
S3: for the new Hillsdale College online course, The Iliad at hillsdale.edu/course.
S3: And Doctor Samuel Lehrer, his dissertation on James Monroe. Remember,
S3: you can hear new episodes every week on this station.
S3: You also can find extended versions of some of our interviews,
S3: or listen anytime to the podcast. Find it@podcasts.apple.edu or wherever
S3: you get your audio. Until next week, I'm Scott Bertram,
S3: and this has been the radio free Hillsdale Hour.