WEBVTT - Appreciating Homer's Iliad 0:00:06.600 --> 0:00:11.360 From the historic campus of Hillsdale College in Hillsdale, Michigan, 0:00:11.360 --> 0:00:15.160 where the good, the true and the beautiful are taught, 0:00:15.200 --> 0:00:20.000 nurtured and honored. This is the radio free Hillsdale Hour, 0:00:20.040 --> 0:00:23.920 bringing the activity and education of the college to listeners 0:00:23.920 --> 0:00:25.320 across the country. 0:00:25.320 --> 0:00:28.240 These works of art are wonders. They're beautiful, and boy, 0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:32.000 are they so instructive. And we need them if we're 0:00:32.000 --> 0:00:36.959 going to understand ourselves and life much better, much more profoundly. 0:00:37.159 --> 0:00:40.600 This is your host, Scott Bertram. Welcome to the Radio 0:00:40.600 --> 0:00:45.200 Free Hillsdale Hour. Part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. 0:00:45.479 --> 0:00:49.040 That was Doctor Stephen Smith from Hillsdale English Department. He's 0:00:49.040 --> 0:00:52.480 also your teacher for the new Hillsdale College online course, 0:00:52.479 --> 0:00:56.360 The Iliad. We go in depth about that on today's program. 0:00:56.440 --> 0:01:00.230 Also later on, Doctor Samuel Lehrer, recent graduate from the 0:01:00.230 --> 0:01:03.910 Van Andel Graduate School of Statesmanship here at Hillsdale College, 0:01:03.910 --> 0:01:09.310 and his dissertation on James Monroe will discuss in a bit. First, 0:01:09.350 --> 0:01:12.270 we're joined by Doctor Stephen Smith. He is dean of Humanities, 0:01:12.310 --> 0:01:16.030 Temple Family chair in English Literature and professor of English 0:01:16.190 --> 0:01:19.830 here at Hillsdale College. Doctor Smith, thanks for joining us. 0:01:20.110 --> 0:01:22.270 It's great to be here, Scott. Thank you for having me. 0:01:22.310 --> 0:01:26.350 You're also the teacher for the new Hillsdale College online course, 0:01:26.350 --> 0:01:37.110 The Iliad, which is available now at hillsdale.edu/course, NEWCOURSE. We 0:01:37.110 --> 0:01:40.309 have the Odyssey now. We have the Iliad available, both 0:01:40.310 --> 0:01:45.310 of them at that URL. So why does the Iliad 0:01:45.310 --> 0:01:49.190 still remain such an important place to begin or even 0:01:49.190 --> 0:01:52.470 continue in education? In the Western literary tradition, we asked 0:01:52.470 --> 0:01:55.110 a very similar question to Doctor Whalen about the Odyssey. 0:01:55.150 --> 0:01:56.070 What about the Iliad? 0:01:57.510 --> 0:02:00.410 I am a dyed in the wool Iliad lover? I 0:02:00.410 --> 0:02:02.770 know a lot of people are crazy about the Odyssey. 0:02:03.410 --> 0:02:06.490 I have always just loved the first. And anyone out 0:02:06.490 --> 0:02:11.250 there who is enjoying the worldwide fervor over the Odyssey 0:02:11.290 --> 0:02:14.130 needs to make their way directly back to the. We 0:02:14.130 --> 0:02:17.330 need to go back to the Iliad, baby. This. Where. Well, 0:02:17.410 --> 0:02:21.210 not where it all starts, but where Homer starts. You know, um, 0:02:21.610 --> 0:02:25.049 the Iliad stands at the head of the epic tradition, 0:02:25.210 --> 0:02:28.330 and one of the best ways to experience the full 0:02:28.330 --> 0:02:31.810 power and beauty of poetry and what it can teach 0:02:31.850 --> 0:02:35.370 us about nature, about character, about reality, is through the 0:02:35.370 --> 0:02:40.290 epic tradition. So why not begin with rage? Goddess sing 0:02:40.290 --> 0:02:43.690 the rage of Achilles, the Iliad. Go to the Odyssey. 0:02:43.690 --> 0:02:46.530 And then then? Then you're off and running. Virgil's Aeneid, 0:02:46.570 --> 0:02:52.130 Dante's Divine Comedy, Paradise Lost. If you're truly ambitious, War 0:02:52.130 --> 0:02:54.450 and Peace is lurking in the 19th century, one of 0:02:54.450 --> 0:02:57.840 the most magnificent books in the world, and a profound 0:02:57.840 --> 0:03:00.240 engagement with Homer. Unless I miss my guess. 0:03:01.160 --> 0:03:03.120 Now, before we get to a little more about the 0:03:03.120 --> 0:03:07.800 course itself and what's discussed, what story does the Iliad 0:03:07.800 --> 0:03:12.519 actually tell? People might know about Trojan War? Achilles? Helen. 0:03:12.520 --> 0:03:15.520 What are they going to discover when they actually open 0:03:15.560 --> 0:03:17.360 the book and read Homer. 0:03:17.639 --> 0:03:21.760 They will most likely be surprised by the focus of Homer, 0:03:21.760 --> 0:03:24.520 which is one of his great gifts. Aristotle saw this 0:03:24.520 --> 0:03:28.000 unmistakably in the poetics. This guy knows how to focus 0:03:28.000 --> 0:03:31.359 a story. I've taught the poem for many, many years, 0:03:31.360 --> 0:03:35.280 and students always wonder, why does it start so deep 0:03:35.280 --> 0:03:37.480 into the war? And why does it end before the 0:03:37.480 --> 0:03:41.320 war does? Like, you know, it's almost like you want 0:03:41.320 --> 0:03:44.520 the Encyclopaedia Britannica version of the Trojan War. How did 0:03:44.520 --> 0:03:46.360 this all get started? When did they arrive? How many 0:03:46.360 --> 0:03:49.120 years have they been there? What Homer does is he 0:03:49.120 --> 0:03:52.320 focuses our attention on the rage of Achilles and the 0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:56.120 will of Zeus over a around a 50 day period 0:03:56.240 --> 0:04:00.300 in the ten year war. And so it's wonderfully focused. 0:04:00.340 --> 0:04:05.260 It's intensely dramatic. It's as great as any Shakespearean tragedy 0:04:05.260 --> 0:04:09.620 you'll ever read. An unforgettable poem, and it derives much 0:04:09.620 --> 0:04:13.580 of its power and its intensity from that focus, from 0:04:13.580 --> 0:04:16.700 that choice of Homer, to focus our attention like this 0:04:16.900 --> 0:04:18.779 on the rage of Achilles and the will of Zeus. 0:04:19.220 --> 0:04:23.060 That is your first lecture, The Rage of Achilles and 0:04:23.060 --> 0:04:29.979 the online course, The Iliad, hillsdale.edu/course. That rage of Achilles 0:04:30.100 --> 0:04:33.380 provides the structure for a lot of this. What should 0:04:33.380 --> 0:04:37.260 students understand about Achilles at the outset of the Iliad? 0:04:37.300 --> 0:04:41.220 Well, Achilles is one of the major characters of the poem, 0:04:41.500 --> 0:04:44.700 and the poem is about, yes, his rage. It's important 0:04:44.700 --> 0:04:47.460 to understand this isn't, you know, a poem about some 0:04:47.460 --> 0:04:50.460 guy's temper tantrum or something like that. Or, you know, 0:04:50.500 --> 0:04:53.779 he lost his cool in traffic. It's about a rage 0:04:53.779 --> 0:04:58.690 that's described as murderous and doomed that cost the Achaeans 0:04:58.690 --> 0:05:02.290 the Greeks loss upon bitter loss. It hurled down to 0:05:02.290 --> 0:05:06.210 the house of death so many great souls, brave fighter souls, 0:05:06.210 --> 0:05:08.970 and left their bodies. You know the Feast of Birds, 0:05:08.970 --> 0:05:11.250 as the opening puts it. So this is a pretty 0:05:11.250 --> 0:05:16.609 intense form of rage that overtakes this gifted warrior who 0:05:16.610 --> 0:05:20.570 is the son of a mortal man and an immortal goddess. 0:05:21.010 --> 0:05:24.089 So Achilles is a remarkable figure, one of the most 0:05:24.089 --> 0:05:28.290 unforgettable figures in literature. Don't believe anything you've heard against him. 0:05:28.290 --> 0:05:31.010 You've got to get to know this guy is powerful, 0:05:31.050 --> 0:05:38.530 unforgettable story about his heart, his mind, his desires, his choices, 0:05:38.529 --> 0:05:43.210 his rage. And a poem ends suitably enough, when the 0:05:43.210 --> 0:05:47.690 rage ends. The poem actually makes tremendous and deep sense 0:05:48.089 --> 0:05:51.330 as a story, and it focuses on the. And one 0:05:51.330 --> 0:05:53.370 of the first things you wonder about when you open a. 0:05:53.730 --> 0:05:56.310 How could the rage of Achilles be the focus of 0:05:56.310 --> 0:05:59.670 an entire story? What is it about this rage? What 0:05:59.670 --> 0:06:03.029 makes it so worthy of the attention of Homer? What's 0:06:03.029 --> 0:06:04.870 going on with this guy in his soul? 0:06:05.190 --> 0:06:11.229 The other early lectures help introduce students to Helen Paris. Hector, 0:06:11.270 --> 0:06:14.710 the defender of Troy. What do those characters add to 0:06:14.750 --> 0:06:19.190 our understanding of the war, in particular, its side effects 0:06:19.190 --> 0:06:22.029 on marriage, on family, on the home? 0:06:22.070 --> 0:06:26.590 Well, the Greeks are on this lonely beach before the 0:06:26.589 --> 0:06:29.469 ski and gates of Troy, and we get to know 0:06:29.470 --> 0:06:32.110 all the Greeks in the poem and of course, the 0:06:32.110 --> 0:06:35.070 Trojans as well. I mean, I can't help but smile 0:06:35.070 --> 0:06:36.870 when you say those names. I mean, I feel like 0:06:36.870 --> 0:06:40.990 I've known these people for my entire working life. Helen 0:06:40.990 --> 0:06:45.870 Paris and Hector and Andromache and Priam, the Trojan side. 0:06:46.230 --> 0:06:50.430 Homer gives full humanity to them and brings out, you know, 0:06:50.470 --> 0:06:53.620 the kind of civilization level clash that's at the heart 0:06:53.620 --> 0:06:57.260 of the poem. But I think, you know, with Paris 0:06:57.260 --> 0:06:59.900 and Helen. Oh my goodness. You know, this is the 0:06:59.900 --> 0:07:02.580 affair at the heart of the war. And those are 0:07:02.580 --> 0:07:06.780 two of the most unforgettable characters in the poem, in 0:07:06.779 --> 0:07:10.700 a way. They pursue a kind of glory that is 0:07:10.700 --> 0:07:13.940 different than the glory that Achilles and and the others 0:07:13.940 --> 0:07:17.580 are fighting for. It's associated with beauty, with erotic love. 0:07:18.060 --> 0:07:20.660 And it's one of the more powerful forces in the 0:07:20.660 --> 0:07:25.340 poem and disruptive forces. And then Hector is the great 0:07:25.380 --> 0:07:29.100 kind of mighty opposite of Achilles, the defender of Troy. 0:07:29.620 --> 0:07:33.700 His heart races to help his city, to save his family. 0:07:33.940 --> 0:07:37.500 And some of the greatest scenes in the poem involve Hector, 0:07:37.540 --> 0:07:41.100 including the meeting with his wife, his meetings with his 0:07:41.100 --> 0:07:46.380 brother Paris, and, of course, the final duel in the poem. 0:07:46.420 --> 0:07:49.860 Spoiler alert it's all. It's big on Big Baby. It's 0:07:49.860 --> 0:07:53.130 all headed toward Achilles versus Hector for all the marbles. 0:07:53.130 --> 0:07:56.130 You've had a few thousand years to catch up, so 0:07:56.130 --> 0:07:57.930 we don't need to give the spoiler alert. I think 0:07:57.930 --> 0:08:00.530 we're I think we're gonna be okay. Doctor Steven Smith 0:08:00.530 --> 0:08:03.170 with us. He is your teacher for the new Hillsdale 0:08:03.170 --> 0:08:06.610 Online course. Hopefully you've taken the Odyssey. Now time for 0:08:06.610 --> 0:08:12.970 the Iliad. You can find it at hillsdale.edu/course. One of 0:08:12.970 --> 0:08:17.370 the major questions running through this course is how much 0:08:17.370 --> 0:08:21.730 responsibility belongs to the gods and how much belongs to 0:08:21.770 --> 0:08:26.930 the characters themselves. How does Homer get us thinking about 0:08:26.930 --> 0:08:31.010 fate and free choice and personal responsibility? 0:08:31.050 --> 0:08:35.130 Well, right from that famous opening, the two subjects of 0:08:35.130 --> 0:08:38.050 the poem, if you ask me, are the rage of 0:08:38.050 --> 0:08:41.450 Achilles and the will of Zeus moving toward its end. 0:08:41.770 --> 0:08:44.050 So the poem is, in a way, a study of 0:08:44.050 --> 0:08:47.890 the will of Achilles and the will of Zeus. And 0:08:47.890 --> 0:08:51.230 so we're going to get the human side and the 0:08:51.230 --> 0:08:55.790 divine side, both at work profoundly and powerfully in the poem. 0:08:56.150 --> 0:08:58.670 Your question is a great one about personal responsibility. I'll 0:08:58.670 --> 0:09:01.430 make a bridge to the Odyssey if you. If you 0:09:01.429 --> 0:09:03.990 go to the first pages of the Odyssey, you will 0:09:03.990 --> 0:09:09.190 hear Zeus complain. Shameless. The way these mortals blame the 0:09:09.230 --> 0:09:13.030 gods for everything you know, especially when through their own 0:09:13.030 --> 0:09:16.470 reckless ways, you know, they compound the misery beyond the 0:09:16.470 --> 0:09:20.830 proper share. So Homer is all over the human tendency 0:09:20.830 --> 0:09:26.310 to locate responsibility anywhere but in the human will. I 0:09:26.309 --> 0:09:29.790 suppose we're willing to locate responsibility there when we've done 0:09:29.790 --> 0:09:33.910 something glorious. Sure. But when we've done something foolish, that's 0:09:33.910 --> 0:09:35.910 where the gods come in. He can. He can blame 0:09:35.910 --> 0:09:39.429 them for years in class with the students. You know, 0:09:39.470 --> 0:09:41.590 I've joked that if Zeus ever, you know, had a 0:09:41.590 --> 0:09:45.950 t shirt line, it would probably read don't blame me. Um, but. 0:09:45.990 --> 0:09:48.709 So he's working for his end. Achilles is working for 0:09:48.710 --> 0:09:53.219 his ends. And Homer shows us the human being really 0:09:53.220 --> 0:09:58.100 struggling with this issue of personal responsibility. Scott with just saying, 0:09:58.140 --> 0:10:01.860 like I did that I was a fool and kind 0:10:01.860 --> 0:10:04.459 of going from there. Usually there's a lot more zig 0:10:04.460 --> 0:10:09.620 zagging going on. And Agamemnon, who has really surged to 0:10:09.660 --> 0:10:12.739 worldwide fame because of the Odyssey film and his depiction 0:10:12.740 --> 0:10:15.620 in it, he really struggles with this one. You know, 0:10:15.660 --> 0:10:18.740 he he he made a mess of things in book one. 0:10:19.220 --> 0:10:22.020 He needs to try to set things right, but he 0:10:22.020 --> 0:10:25.699 does tend to default to blaming his madness on the gods. 0:10:26.420 --> 0:10:30.820 Hector and Achilles are both great warriors in the Iliad, 0:10:30.820 --> 0:10:35.340 but they're very different men. As we move through the course, 0:10:35.340 --> 0:10:39.420 what might we want to notice about these two competing 0:10:39.420 --> 0:10:41.420 pictures of heroism? 0:10:41.860 --> 0:10:46.660 Well, Achilles is the brilliant swift runner, the greatest Greek 0:10:46.660 --> 0:10:50.400 warrior his arms have bore the brunt of the fighting. 0:10:50.400 --> 0:10:54.320 He's won great glory through it. When his honor and 0:10:54.320 --> 0:10:56.679 his sense of justice is violated. At the beginning of 0:10:56.679 --> 0:11:00.400 the poem, the whole thing is launched. So he is intense, 0:11:00.440 --> 0:11:05.680 lover of of class and honor. He also has friendship 0:11:06.160 --> 0:11:08.920 and a regard for the Greeks as well. So he's 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:13.280 a he's actually a fully rounded character. Hector is associated 0:11:13.280 --> 0:11:17.000 with the defense of Troy. Again, that famous line, his 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:20.360 heart races to help the fellow Trojans. So he tends 0:11:20.360 --> 0:11:25.719 to be associated with the defense of the city, with family, 0:11:26.240 --> 0:11:29.640 with his marriage and his and his infant son. Now, 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:33.120 all that said, what unites the two men is just 0:11:33.120 --> 0:11:38.080 as interesting because both men have been trained and educated 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:42.320 and formed, you know, to intensely desire glory. And that's 0:11:42.320 --> 0:11:45.640 part of what will bring them into that final conflict 0:11:45.840 --> 0:11:47.870 near the end of the poem. So it was a 0:11:47.870 --> 0:11:51.790 very rich presentation of the two great warriors. One Greek, 0:11:51.790 --> 0:11:52.709 one Trojan. 0:11:52.750 --> 0:11:54.990 Doctor Stephen Smith with us, your teacher for the new 0:11:55.030 --> 0:12:01.230 Hillsdale course on the Iliad. hillsdale.edu/course. You speak of glory 0:12:01.230 --> 0:12:05.310 and Achilles is given a famous choice between a short 0:12:05.309 --> 0:12:09.510 life and everlasting glory and a long life without it. 0:12:09.510 --> 0:12:12.990 How does that choice help organize some of the big 0:12:12.990 --> 0:12:16.390 questions that will encounter throughout the course? 0:12:16.910 --> 0:12:20.429 That question is that that decision, I should say, is 0:12:20.429 --> 0:12:23.230 at the heart of the Achilles story. You know, we're 0:12:23.230 --> 0:12:26.069 in year ten in the Iliad of the war, and 0:12:26.070 --> 0:12:29.350 he will bring up the choice that he made and 0:12:29.390 --> 0:12:34.429 is making to remain at war, pursuing glory, knowing that 0:12:34.429 --> 0:12:37.510 it will bring about his death. And the alternative, which 0:12:37.510 --> 0:12:41.270 was that long life, but with obscurity. It's funny, in 0:12:41.270 --> 0:12:45.630 the poem, Scott, he he's been there for ten years. 0:12:45.630 --> 0:12:48.530 He's made his choice and he keeps he keeps coming 0:12:48.530 --> 0:12:50.930 back to it almost like he could. He could leave 0:12:50.929 --> 0:12:52.970 at any moment. Like, I can take my ships. I 0:12:52.970 --> 0:12:54.770 can get out of here. I can go back home. 0:12:55.170 --> 0:12:57.770 You know, I don't have to be here. But he 0:12:57.809 --> 0:13:01.770 stays on that beach, and he will die there. So 0:13:01.770 --> 0:13:05.730 that choice he makes, um, is finally. It is his 0:13:05.730 --> 0:13:10.530 final decision. But Homer's greatness is to show us how 0:13:10.530 --> 0:13:15.090 he grows. Mhm. Um, across the Iliad. And as he 0:13:15.090 --> 0:13:16.449 approaches his own death. 0:13:16.490 --> 0:13:20.690 Yeah. So Achilles grows. He's consumed by rage at the beginning. 0:13:21.050 --> 0:13:24.570 And at the end, he's learned something about, uh, self-control 0:13:24.570 --> 0:13:28.330 and virtue and mercy, too. How should we understand this 0:13:28.330 --> 0:13:32.770 transformation that takes place between book one and book 24? 0:13:33.130 --> 0:13:36.890 Well, it takes, you know, it takes, you know, 22 0:13:36.929 --> 0:13:41.730 books or so, even even 24 books to come to 0:13:41.770 --> 0:13:48.160 the end of the rage. Achilles is tough, relentless. He 0:13:48.160 --> 0:13:52.400 becomes something like death itself. Close to the end of 0:13:52.400 --> 0:13:55.840 the poem. He fights a river God. He wants to 0:13:55.880 --> 0:13:59.520 strike at Apollo. He's mourning his friend. I mean, the 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:04.120 rage reaches a really extreme point, but Homer does not 0:14:04.120 --> 0:14:07.480 leave us there. One of the big surprises in the 0:14:07.480 --> 0:14:10.840 poem is book 24, easily one of the most beautiful 0:14:10.880 --> 0:14:14.479 books of poetry in the entire world. And that finale 0:14:14.760 --> 0:14:18.440 in which Achilles and the King of Troy come together 0:14:18.440 --> 0:14:23.920 over Hector's body. Spoiler alert is what brings about this 0:14:23.920 --> 0:14:27.880 surprising ending and what looks like a moment of growth. 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:32.040 I mean, Priam wonders over Achilles as he decides to 0:14:32.040 --> 0:14:35.240 give the body of Hector back. And I think that 0:14:35.280 --> 0:14:41.800 what Priam is wondering over is what is truly godlike quality, 0:14:42.080 --> 0:14:46.630 his virtue at that moment, and the virtue is distinct 0:14:46.630 --> 0:14:50.390 from the virtue he's displayed. You know, being a one 0:14:50.390 --> 0:14:54.190 man death machine on the plain of Troy, it's as 0:14:54.190 --> 0:15:00.869 you suggest, self government, self control. He can hold himself back. 0:15:01.030 --> 0:15:04.550 He seems for a moment, like. Like a free man 0:15:05.310 --> 0:15:08.750 capable of some other action than just raging and raging 0:15:08.750 --> 0:15:10.030 and raging and raging. 0:15:10.430 --> 0:15:15.150 Is there one lecture or one part of a lecture, 0:15:15.150 --> 0:15:20.030 even in this course that you enjoy teaching? Because students 0:15:20.030 --> 0:15:23.750 come away seeing the Iliad differently afterward, and you have 0:15:23.750 --> 0:15:27.430 experience having taught this countless times to our Hillsdale students. 0:15:28.630 --> 0:15:30.910 I was thinking about that, Scott. And I'm like, oh yes, 0:15:30.950 --> 0:15:34.350 book one, book six, book nine, book 16 book. I'm 0:15:34.350 --> 0:15:37.110 one of those people. I love this poem. So I 0:15:37.110 --> 0:15:41.470 have many, many favorite moments. And certainly book 24 is incredible. 0:15:41.790 --> 0:15:46.570 The Funeral Games of Achilles and Patroclus are remarkable. The 0:15:46.570 --> 0:15:50.850 embassy to Achilles in book nine is must see TV. 0:15:51.970 --> 0:15:56.050 It's a remarkable part of the poem. But you know, 0:15:56.090 --> 0:15:59.570 I love the moment when his mother comes to him 0:16:00.290 --> 0:16:03.850 after everything he's wanted has come to pass. You know, 0:16:03.850 --> 0:16:07.610 Achilles prays in book one that he be exalted and 0:16:07.610 --> 0:16:10.490 the Greeks be mowed down because he's been so dishonored. 0:16:11.210 --> 0:16:14.930 And when, when, when things have gone. Just as he 0:16:14.930 --> 0:16:17.970 prayed the will of Zeus. Right. But not exactly as 0:16:17.970 --> 0:16:20.890 he had expected. This is totally a meditation on be 0:16:20.890 --> 0:16:23.010 careful what you pray for. Sure. When you get to 0:16:23.050 --> 0:16:26.330 this moment, his mother comes. Achilles is in agony. His 0:16:26.330 --> 0:16:29.370 friend is dead. All these things have happened and his 0:16:29.370 --> 0:16:32.170 mother comes to him and says, son, why are you 0:16:32.170 --> 0:16:36.690 in tears? Why are you crying? Olympian Zeus has fulfilled 0:16:36.690 --> 0:16:40.770 your prayer just as you raised your hands in book one. 0:16:41.090 --> 0:16:46.080 You've gotten everything you wanted. 000, it's so painful. You know, 0:16:46.120 --> 0:16:49.080 it's wonderful. But, I mean, he's going to grow from 0:16:49.080 --> 0:16:52.440 that zero point. Yeah. To to the ending in book 24, 0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:54.960 but not without some mega rage in between. I'm just 0:16:54.960 --> 0:16:55.560 telling you. 0:16:56.280 --> 0:16:58.760 I already know the answer to the question, I think. 0:16:58.760 --> 0:17:02.400 But I'm still going to ask, are you still learning 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:06.520 and enjoying different parts of the Iliad each time you 0:17:06.520 --> 0:17:09.320 read and teach this to students? 0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:15.160 Yes, that's a great question. With Shakespeare, with Dante, with Homer, 0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:21.280 with Genesis, with Paradise Lost, whatever these books are so 0:17:21.320 --> 0:17:26.960 far beyond us that they continually surprise and instruct. You 0:17:26.960 --> 0:17:30.680 can teach Homer's Iliad for 20 years and come back 0:17:30.680 --> 0:17:33.680 to it, and it is as fresh as the dawn, 0:17:33.840 --> 0:17:36.600 and you see things you did not see before. I 0:17:36.640 --> 0:17:39.640 laugh sometimes using the books you know, in class I'll 0:17:39.640 --> 0:17:42.380 be rereading, prepping for class. And I'll see in my 0:17:42.420 --> 0:17:47.140 in my book, a whole unmarked page. And now, you know, on, 0:17:47.180 --> 0:17:49.220 you know, round 20 or whatever it is. I'm like, 0:17:49.260 --> 0:17:51.500 that's the most important thing of all. I didn't even 0:17:51.500 --> 0:17:54.460 have it marked. It's that kind of work. These these 0:17:54.460 --> 0:17:57.700 works of art are wonders. They're beautiful. And boy, are 0:17:57.700 --> 0:18:03.060 they so instructive and illuminating of nature, of character, of reality. 0:18:03.500 --> 0:18:08.179 They're truly, you know, at our service. And we need 0:18:08.220 --> 0:18:12.820 them if we're going to understand ourselves and life much better, 0:18:12.820 --> 0:18:14.379 much more profoundly. 0:18:14.540 --> 0:18:17.899 Doctor Stephen Smith is dean of Humanities, Temple Family chair 0:18:17.900 --> 0:18:22.020 in English Literature and professor of English here at Hillsdale College. 0:18:22.180 --> 0:18:25.740 He's also your teacher for the new Hillsdale College online course, 0:18:25.740 --> 0:18:38.460 The iliad@hillsdale.edu slash hillsdale.edu slash, NEWCOURSE. Doctor Smith, thanks so 0:18:38.460 --> 0:18:41.850 much for joining us here on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. 0:18:41.890 --> 0:18:42.930 It's been my pleasure, Scott. 0:18:42.930 --> 0:18:46.890 Thank you. Up next, Samuel Lair joins us, newly minted doctor, 0:18:46.930 --> 0:18:49.570 graduate of the Van Andel School of Statesmanship here at 0:18:49.570 --> 0:18:53.250 Hillsdale College. We'll talk about the political thought and statesmanship 0:18:53.250 --> 0:18:57.170 of one James Monroe. I'm Scott Bertram. This is the 0:18:57.170 --> 0:19:15.609 radio free Hillsdale Hour. Welcome back to the Radio free 0:19:15.650 --> 0:19:19.609 Hillsdale Hour. I'm Scott Bertram. Be sure to find this show. 0:19:19.650 --> 0:19:23.170 Older episodes of this program, plus tons of great Hillsdale 0:19:23.170 --> 0:19:28.610 College audio at podcast dot dot edu or wherever you 0:19:28.609 --> 0:19:32.290 get your audio. Look for the Larry Arnn Show, Imprimis, 0:19:32.330 --> 0:19:36.530 Hillsdale Dialogues, and more. We're joined by Doctor Samuel Lehrer. 0:19:36.570 --> 0:19:39.590 He's a former director of the center for American Education 0:19:39.590 --> 0:19:42.830 at the Idaho Freedom Foundation. A recent graduate of the 0:19:42.869 --> 0:19:46.750 Van Andel School of Statesmanship here at Hillsdale College as well. 0:19:46.990 --> 0:19:48.510 Doctor Lehrer, thanks for joining us. 0:19:48.830 --> 0:19:50.230 Thank you. It's a pleasure to be with you. 0:19:50.230 --> 0:19:52.950 Talking today about your dissertation work at the School of 0:19:52.950 --> 0:19:57.709 Statesmanship on the political thought and statesmanship of James Monroe. 0:19:58.310 --> 0:20:01.150 You argue that Monroe was one of the most important 0:20:01.150 --> 0:20:05.350 statesmen of our founding era. What role has he played 0:20:05.590 --> 0:20:08.270 in our understanding of the founders and why, perhaps, has 0:20:08.270 --> 0:20:09.750 he been a bit overlooked? 0:20:09.869 --> 0:20:12.950 Well, my scholarship try to tackle was the fact that 0:20:13.390 --> 0:20:16.550 he actually hasn't played a significant role in our understanding 0:20:16.550 --> 0:20:20.150 of the founding era, which is a massive, I think, 0:20:20.190 --> 0:20:23.990 injustice from historical studies. John Quincy Adams, during his eulogy 0:20:23.990 --> 0:20:27.590 of Monroe, talks about how he's the only man whose 0:20:27.590 --> 0:20:31.070 life is associated with every single major event of the 0:20:31.070 --> 0:20:34.030 founding era for a whole half century. You know, he 0:20:34.030 --> 0:20:37.340 joins the American Revolution at 17, receives a near mortal 0:20:37.340 --> 0:20:39.580 wound at the Battle of Trenton and is involved in 0:20:39.580 --> 0:20:44.180 practically every single major political event in the founding era. 0:20:44.180 --> 0:20:47.580 From then on out, you know, he he's involved in 0:20:47.619 --> 0:20:51.220 the ratification of the Constitution in Virginia. He actually has 0:20:51.220 --> 0:20:54.379 a unique kind of he's one of the only founders, 0:20:54.420 --> 0:20:57.140 you know, the only president to not sign the Constitution, 0:20:57.140 --> 0:20:59.619 which makes him kind of a unique figure in that regards, 0:20:59.820 --> 0:21:04.619 even beyond the constitutional era and the early 1790s. You know, 0:21:04.660 --> 0:21:09.100 he's ambassador to France during the George Washington administration. He's 0:21:09.100 --> 0:21:13.540 governor of Virginia during the revolution of 1800. He's secretary 0:21:13.540 --> 0:21:16.540 of state of James Madison during the war of 1812. 0:21:16.859 --> 0:21:20.900 Then he oversees as president the Missouri Compromise. And so 0:21:21.180 --> 0:21:24.380 he's really central to all these major events. And while 0:21:24.380 --> 0:21:28.100 he's not necessarily always the number one guy on the stage, 0:21:28.100 --> 0:21:31.460 so to speak, he's always in the background, he's always there. 0:21:31.820 --> 0:21:34.459 And so I argue that if you really want to 0:21:34.460 --> 0:21:38.010 understand the founding, particularly through the eyes of great men, 0:21:38.210 --> 0:21:42.050 that Monroe is one. You could do that through. You know, 0:21:42.090 --> 0:21:45.369 there's founders like Hamilton and James Wilson, who we all 0:21:45.369 --> 0:21:50.250 recognize as being significant and actually have a greater grasp 0:21:50.250 --> 0:21:55.890 on our national consciousness. But their influence wanes by 18, 0:21:55.930 --> 0:22:00.250 the early 1800s for many of them. Right. Monroe is there, 0:22:00.530 --> 0:22:03.010 right all the way through the end of it. And 0:22:03.010 --> 0:22:07.170 so I believe that really, if you look at Monroe, 0:22:07.410 --> 0:22:11.129 he represents a mature understanding of the founding in the 0:22:11.130 --> 0:22:13.490 same way that the founders learn some things. So they're 0:22:13.490 --> 0:22:15.850 prudent men. At the end of the day, when Roe 0:22:15.890 --> 0:22:19.610 is the the archetype of that. Right. He goes from 0:22:19.609 --> 0:22:24.810 the starry eyed patriot of 1776 to the mature statesman 0:22:24.850 --> 0:22:28.369 of 1824, reflecting on the future of the nation. And 0:22:28.369 --> 0:22:31.570 I think fundamentally that's the greatest insight he offers to 0:22:31.609 --> 0:22:32.690 the study of the founding. 0:22:32.690 --> 0:22:36.710 Your dissertation argues that Monroe saw the American Republic as 0:22:36.710 --> 0:22:41.830 the best regime in principle, theory and practice. What exactly 0:22:42.030 --> 0:22:43.190 did he mean by that? 0:22:43.230 --> 0:22:48.950 Yeah. So Monroe was deeply learned, and he read Aristotle. 0:22:49.150 --> 0:22:54.550 He read Polybius, he read Locke, Montesquieu. And one of 0:22:54.550 --> 0:22:57.430 the big things that really struck him and he and 0:22:57.430 --> 0:22:59.389 you see this in some of his early writings during 0:22:59.390 --> 0:23:04.310 the constitutional ratification. Is that okay? America has unique has 0:23:04.310 --> 0:23:07.630 a unique destiny here, he says. It's widely. He comments 0:23:07.630 --> 0:23:10.550 in his political treatise how it's widely regarded that American 0:23:10.550 --> 0:23:13.430 Revolution is the most important event in human history. And 0:23:13.430 --> 0:23:16.350 because it's the first regime to be predicated on the 0:23:16.350 --> 0:23:19.990 fundamental truth of natural equality. But it's also, in a 0:23:19.990 --> 0:23:23.270 lot of ways, he viewed America as redeeming the cause 0:23:23.270 --> 0:23:27.230 of self-government for the world and for the West. And 0:23:27.230 --> 0:23:32.230 but when he looks back, he thinks about how Athens failed. 0:23:32.230 --> 0:23:36.979 Sparta failed. Rome failed, right? That self-governments have also been 0:23:37.340 --> 0:23:41.140 often fickle. And so, you know, America is the best 0:23:41.140 --> 0:23:43.980 regime for Monroe because it is the first regime predicated 0:23:43.980 --> 0:23:48.060 on natural equality, but it's also the best regime in practice, 0:23:48.060 --> 0:23:51.139 he believes, because it solved some of these fundamental issues 0:23:51.140 --> 0:23:55.340 regarding faction and stability that he believes ate at the 0:23:55.340 --> 0:23:58.699 core of the old republics. And it did that through 0:23:58.700 --> 0:24:03.060 our constitutional order, which is quite fascinating for Monroe, because, 0:24:03.260 --> 0:24:05.699 as I mentioned, he voted against the ratification of the 0:24:05.700 --> 0:24:09.619 Constitution originally. But by the time he leaves the presidency 0:24:09.619 --> 0:24:12.660 and returns to the plow, so to speak, he's reflecting 0:24:12.660 --> 0:24:15.740 on America and the things that it overcame. And he 0:24:15.780 --> 0:24:19.860 firmly believes that lesser regimes like the French Republic would 0:24:19.900 --> 0:24:23.540 have succumbed to the sort of pressures that America dealt 0:24:23.540 --> 0:24:26.939 with during the founding. He equates that to the strength 0:24:26.940 --> 0:24:31.820 of our constitutional order and the wisdom of the Constitution itself. 0:24:32.100 --> 0:24:35.360 And so America is a great balance between theory and 0:24:35.359 --> 0:24:38.640 practice for Monroe. It's the best regime and principle because 0:24:38.640 --> 0:24:41.480 it's predicated on natural equality, but it's also the best 0:24:41.480 --> 0:24:46.399 regime in practice, because it's created a stable constitutional order 0:24:46.400 --> 0:24:48.119 that allows liberty to thrive. 0:24:48.359 --> 0:24:51.520 Talking with Doctor Samuel Lair, his dissertation on the political 0:24:51.520 --> 0:24:56.400 thought and statesmanship of James Monroe. You describe Monroe as 0:24:56.400 --> 0:25:00.600 believing that human beings are naturally political. How did that 0:25:00.600 --> 0:25:04.680 help shape his view of citizenship and of self-government? 0:25:05.040 --> 0:25:08.680 Yes. Monroe read Aristotle and Aristotle is the one that 0:25:08.720 --> 0:25:12.919 kind of begins this notion of American man as a 0:25:12.920 --> 0:25:16.480 political animal. Monroe believes the same thing. He talks about 0:25:16.480 --> 0:25:20.160 in his political treatise, how men are essentially controlled by 0:25:20.160 --> 0:25:24.520 moral causes. He says that they're effectually creatures of circumstances 0:25:24.520 --> 0:25:28.440 influenced by the times within which they they live. And 0:25:28.440 --> 0:25:32.390 that's important for Monroe, because it speaks to the trueness 0:25:32.630 --> 0:25:36.990 of Republican government, right? Man's not meant merely to be 0:25:36.990 --> 0:25:41.910 ruled right without also being ruled in turn. Right. So yes, 0:25:41.910 --> 0:25:44.790 he is. And this goes to actually the central thesis 0:25:44.790 --> 0:25:47.830 of his book. He describes it, or the title of 0:25:47.830 --> 0:25:50.790 his book is The People The Sovereign's right. And that's 0:25:50.790 --> 0:25:54.070 because the people hold the sovereignty in the American regime. 0:25:54.550 --> 0:25:58.510 He talks about how sovereignty in the American context is 0:25:58.550 --> 0:26:03.030 a kind of dual character, right? You're both the ruler 0:26:03.030 --> 0:26:06.230 of the American regime as a citizen, because sovereignty flows 0:26:06.230 --> 0:26:09.470 from you, but you're also obeying the laws of the 0:26:09.470 --> 0:26:14.070 Constitution of the American Republic itself. And so he viewed 0:26:14.070 --> 0:26:18.109 man's political nature as perfectly in accordance with what the 0:26:18.109 --> 0:26:21.350 founders are trying to create when they establish the Constitution. 0:26:21.590 --> 0:26:24.590 But he also viewed it as essentially tied to other 0:26:24.590 --> 0:26:28.030 facets of American institutions, namely education. He's one of the 0:26:28.030 --> 0:26:32.010 largest proponents of education in the American founding, and this 0:26:32.010 --> 0:26:35.250 notion of man as a political animal deeply informed his 0:26:35.250 --> 0:26:39.409 views on education. It's why he promoted widely. Public education 0:26:39.650 --> 0:26:43.610 is because he believed that you had to take that kernel, right, 0:26:43.650 --> 0:26:46.689 that that base nature that man has and try to 0:26:46.730 --> 0:26:49.889 help see it fulfilled. So that way he could truly 0:26:49.890 --> 0:26:54.490 become a self-governing citizen of a republic. There's a term 0:26:54.490 --> 0:26:58.090 he uses during his first inaugural, which I find very fascinating. 0:26:58.490 --> 0:27:05.250 And he says, our government is emphatically a system of self-government. Right. 0:27:05.490 --> 0:27:08.369 And when you read Monroe's writings, you see that he 0:27:08.369 --> 0:27:12.810 views these term encompassing. Right? We're a self-government because the 0:27:12.810 --> 0:27:16.530 American people control themselves. They're not beholden to some foreign empire. 0:27:17.290 --> 0:27:21.290 It's a self-government because the American people rule themselves via 0:27:22.130 --> 0:27:28.490 essentially a republican institutions. Correct. But it's also a self-government 0:27:28.490 --> 0:27:33.200 in the sense that every man rules himself, right? He's moral. 0:27:33.200 --> 0:27:36.919 And so it's all those things together that make man 0:27:36.960 --> 0:27:39.600 self-governing and fundamentally political. 0:27:40.240 --> 0:27:43.320 Doctor Samuel Leir with us talking about the political thought 0:27:43.320 --> 0:27:47.719 and statesmanship of James Monroe. One of the themes in 0:27:47.720 --> 0:27:52.840 your dissertation is Monroe's concern with preserving the Republic. What 0:27:52.880 --> 0:27:55.960 threats to the Republic worried him the most? 0:27:56.440 --> 0:27:59.960 In his political treatise, Monroe says that there's two threats 0:28:00.440 --> 0:28:05.119 that threaten the preservation of the republic consolidation and disunion. 0:28:05.359 --> 0:28:07.680 And he viewed both of these through the lens in 0:28:07.680 --> 0:28:11.159 which he saw them as a political operator. In addition 0:28:11.160 --> 0:28:13.760 to I want to be political theorist, so to speak, 0:28:14.320 --> 0:28:17.040 during the 1790s. You know, he's one of the major 0:28:17.040 --> 0:28:21.400 political figures in the Democratic Republican Party, alongside Jefferson and 0:28:21.400 --> 0:28:25.320 alongside Madison. And he viewed the Federalists of his time, 0:28:25.320 --> 0:28:29.379 although he walks this back eventually as moving the republic 0:28:29.420 --> 0:28:32.780 towards a consolidated monarchy. Right. So this notion that we're 0:28:32.780 --> 0:28:37.740 going to erode the constitutional order predicated on federalism and 0:28:37.740 --> 0:28:40.180 that we're all going to centralize power into the into 0:28:40.180 --> 0:28:43.860 the executive, right. So the state powers will be delegated 0:28:43.860 --> 0:28:47.380 to the federal government, and then eventually Congress's powers will 0:28:47.380 --> 0:28:49.780 be delegated into the executive, and you're going to have 0:28:49.780 --> 0:28:52.340 a monarchy. And this is something that he learned also 0:28:52.340 --> 0:28:55.940 through his study of the ancient republics, he noticed that 0:28:55.940 --> 0:28:58.980 both Athens and Rome had a tendency to centralize power 0:28:58.980 --> 0:29:02.180 and strong men when they were threatened. But Monroe also, 0:29:02.180 --> 0:29:05.660 as he came along, started to realize, particularly during the 0:29:05.660 --> 0:29:09.620 war of 1812, that America was also threatened by a 0:29:09.620 --> 0:29:13.300 different problem. And that's what ultimately the Union succumbed to 0:29:13.300 --> 0:29:16.060 during the Civil War, which was this union. And he 0:29:16.060 --> 0:29:19.700 first encountered this during the Hartford Convention near the end 0:29:19.700 --> 0:29:23.060 of the war of 1812, where several Federalist strongholds in 0:29:23.060 --> 0:29:26.820 Massachusetts and Connecticut and elsewhere kind of flirted with the 0:29:26.890 --> 0:29:30.370 idea of succession, but then it really hit him full 0:29:30.370 --> 0:29:34.650 bore during the Missouri crisis, and that's when he fully 0:29:34.650 --> 0:29:37.930 started to understand that like, oh, there's something else here 0:29:37.930 --> 0:29:42.490 that we have to be aware of. And so his presidency, 0:29:42.490 --> 0:29:45.690 in a lot of ways, can be understood as trying 0:29:45.730 --> 0:29:50.530 to tamp down these two competing tendencies in the American republic, 0:29:50.530 --> 0:29:53.850 one towards consolidation, which he tried to do through proper 0:29:53.850 --> 0:29:59.130 Republican management, so to speak, but also through unity, right. 0:29:59.170 --> 0:30:03.410 Trying to unify the American people around our common sentiments, 0:30:03.450 --> 0:30:06.210 rooted in the Declaration of Independence, to prevent us from 0:30:06.210 --> 0:30:09.250 tearing apart in a way that eventually did during the 0:30:09.250 --> 0:30:09.850 Civil War. 0:30:10.090 --> 0:30:14.210 That's Doctor Samuel Lehr. His dissertation on James Monroe will 0:30:14.210 --> 0:30:17.130 continue discussing in a moment. First, I want to remind you, 0:30:17.250 --> 0:30:18.570 if you were with us for the first part of 0:30:18.570 --> 0:30:21.370 the program, you know, there's a new Hillsdale College online 0:30:21.370 --> 0:30:25.170 course on the Iliad. It's a tag team with the Odyssey, 0:30:25.210 --> 0:30:32.680 both available right now at hillsdale.edu/course. The Odyssey, taught by 0:30:32.680 --> 0:30:36.040 Doctor Ben Whalen from our English department. The Iliad, taught 0:30:36.040 --> 0:30:39.640 by Doctor Stephen Smith from our English department here at Hillsdale. 0:30:39.800 --> 0:30:44.240 Homer's Iliad is the first epic poem introducing students in 0:30:44.240 --> 0:30:47.160 this course to the origin of Western literature and telling 0:30:47.160 --> 0:30:50.760 the tale of Achilles rage during the Trojan War. It 0:30:50.760 --> 0:30:54.000 looks at the complexity of human nature choices men must 0:30:54.000 --> 0:30:56.960 make as we face our mortality and the vices and 0:30:56.960 --> 0:31:00.880 virtues to which those choices lead. Sign up for the 0:31:00.880 --> 0:31:12.640 online course on The Iliad at hillsdale.edu/course. That's hillsdale.edu/ewcourse. We 0:31:12.680 --> 0:31:16.520 continue with Doctor Samuel Lair, recent graduate from Hillsdale Van 0:31:16.520 --> 0:31:20.520 Andel School of Statesmanship, his dissertation on the political thought 0:31:20.520 --> 0:31:25.100 and statesmanship of James Monroe. Doctor lair something you write 0:31:25.100 --> 0:31:29.660 about is how Monroe applied these principles to issues like 0:31:29.660 --> 0:31:34.420 slavery and the American Indians. How did he reconcile those 0:31:34.420 --> 0:31:37.940 issues with some of the ideals found in the declaration? 0:31:38.420 --> 0:31:41.700 Monroe on the Indian question, so to speak, is particularly 0:31:41.700 --> 0:31:45.460 interesting because, you know, that's a very controversial topic, right? 0:31:45.500 --> 0:31:49.540 It's hard to look back on and view nuance in 0:31:49.540 --> 0:31:52.660 the Indian removal policies of Jackson. But when you read 0:31:52.780 --> 0:31:56.460 Monroe and you read the founders, generally, you actually start 0:31:56.460 --> 0:32:01.260 to realize that the founders weren't these bigots, you know, 0:32:01.300 --> 0:32:03.820 rubbing their hands together, trying to think about how they 0:32:03.820 --> 0:32:07.180 could steal land from the Native Americans. Monroe actually had 0:32:07.180 --> 0:32:11.020 a profound respect for Native American culture. He calls them 0:32:11.020 --> 0:32:13.820 free and high minded in his political treatise, and he 0:32:13.820 --> 0:32:17.500 actually views Native American society in its kind of proto 0:32:17.540 --> 0:32:23.300 republican institutions as a fundamental proof of the Republican thesis 0:32:23.300 --> 0:32:26.890 that man is by nature free and equal, but he also, 0:32:26.930 --> 0:32:30.410 you know, as a Lockean, so to speak, believes fundamentally 0:32:30.410 --> 0:32:34.970 in this notion that property belongs to the rational and industrious. 0:32:35.370 --> 0:32:39.090 When Jackson seizes Florida, he talks about in one of 0:32:39.090 --> 0:32:43.530 his addresses that. Or it's actually a letter to Madison. 0:32:43.930 --> 0:32:48.130 That land must be managed in such a way that 0:32:48.130 --> 0:32:50.770 it provides the greatest benefit to the greatest number. Right. 0:32:50.810 --> 0:32:53.610 So that we can essentially follow the first commandment to 0:32:53.650 --> 0:32:57.010 be fruitful and multiply. And so Monroe is trying to 0:32:57.010 --> 0:33:00.250 wrestle with these two things, right? Essentially, the natural rights 0:33:00.250 --> 0:33:03.130 of the Native Americans, along with his deep respect for 0:33:03.130 --> 0:33:07.729 their culture, but also this other notion that, so to speak, that, well, 0:33:07.730 --> 0:33:10.970 we have this Lockean mandate in order to develop this, 0:33:11.410 --> 0:33:15.090 you know, unproductive land in the American West. And the 0:33:15.090 --> 0:33:18.530 way he approaches it is, you know, actually much more 0:33:18.530 --> 0:33:22.290 nuanced than the Jackson administration eventually did. He was an 0:33:22.350 --> 0:33:27.510 early supporter of so-called Indian removal, but he viewed it 0:33:27.510 --> 0:33:29.870 as a more humane policy. He didn't view it as 0:33:29.910 --> 0:33:33.310 a greedy policy. He actually believed, fundamentally that this was 0:33:33.310 --> 0:33:36.830 the best way to secure Native Americans in their way 0:33:36.830 --> 0:33:41.190 of life in many ways, but also their existence. You 0:33:41.230 --> 0:33:45.190 read his writings, and he worries deeply about the influence 0:33:45.190 --> 0:33:50.550 civilization has on, you know, kind of pre-civilized peoples, right? 0:33:50.590 --> 0:33:53.830 They're not used to the vices and the luxuries of 0:33:53.830 --> 0:33:56.670 alcohol and jewelry and all these sort of things. And 0:33:56.670 --> 0:33:59.310 he thinks it can be corrupting to people who are 0:33:59.310 --> 0:34:01.150 unprepared for it. In the same way he thinks it's 0:34:01.150 --> 0:34:05.790 corrupted Europe. And so his administration, along with John C Calhoun, 0:34:05.790 --> 0:34:09.350 was his secretary of war, kind of developed the early 0:34:09.750 --> 0:34:13.870 plan for Indian removal based on this notion that we're 0:34:13.870 --> 0:34:17.430 going to provide equal and just terms to the Native Americans. 0:34:17.430 --> 0:34:19.870 We're going to give them fair compensation for their land 0:34:19.870 --> 0:34:22.259 in the West, and then we're going to relocate them 0:34:22.260 --> 0:34:25.219 west to the of the Mississippi. And in turn, we're 0:34:25.219 --> 0:34:28.420 going to introduce into agriculture. We're going to introduce them 0:34:28.420 --> 0:34:30.940 to private property. We're going to develop schools for them. 0:34:30.940 --> 0:34:33.779 We're going to develop institutions of government. So that way 0:34:33.780 --> 0:34:36.540 they can understand how Republican governments are supposed to work. 0:34:36.580 --> 0:34:39.860 And actually, his his ultimate vision was that he hoped 0:34:39.860 --> 0:34:44.339 that this so proto Indian state he was creating would 0:34:44.340 --> 0:34:47.180 eventually become part of the union. And one of the 0:34:47.180 --> 0:34:51.259 key facets, I think, that Monroe hits on, which distinguishes 0:34:51.260 --> 0:34:55.100 himself from Jackson, is that while he develops this plan, 0:34:55.300 --> 0:34:58.380 he qualifies it in the sense that we cannot do 0:34:58.380 --> 0:35:00.980 this without the consent of the Native American tribes. We 0:35:00.980 --> 0:35:04.060 cannot force them at gunpoint to move from their lands. 0:35:04.260 --> 0:35:07.180 They have to recognize themselves that this would be good 0:35:07.180 --> 0:35:09.980 for them and good for the union, and that we 0:35:09.980 --> 0:35:12.780 have a destiny to be part of the same national 0:35:12.780 --> 0:35:16.580 republic together. And so it's kind of an interesting, so 0:35:16.580 --> 0:35:20.520 to speak, alternative history, to wonder if it was Monroe 0:35:20.960 --> 0:35:23.920 who was president in 1830 during Indian removal, rather than 0:35:23.960 --> 0:35:26.839 Jackson to see if the policy would have been handled 0:35:26.840 --> 0:35:30.880 much more humanely in a way that conformed to justice. But, 0:35:30.920 --> 0:35:34.200 you know, it's it's a very nuanced and difficult question 0:35:34.200 --> 0:35:37.000 to talk about. But I think, Monroe, you know, when 0:35:37.000 --> 0:35:38.880 you look at his writings, you look at his approach 0:35:38.880 --> 0:35:41.800 to it, he does really try to balance the principles 0:35:41.800 --> 0:35:44.879 of the declaration with just the prudence of this really 0:35:44.880 --> 0:35:45.760 pressing issue. 0:35:46.200 --> 0:35:48.920 Talking with Doctor Samuel Blair about his dissertation work on 0:35:48.920 --> 0:35:53.160 the political thought and statesmanship of James Monroe. Monroe was 0:35:53.160 --> 0:35:58.120 deeply skeptical of political parties. Why did he think that 0:35:58.120 --> 0:36:03.200 parties posed a danger to constitutional government? And why did 0:36:03.200 --> 0:36:05.840 he believe that a healthy republic would be just fine 0:36:05.840 --> 0:36:06.560 without them? 0:36:07.080 --> 0:36:11.799 Monroe's understanding of political parties was deeply influenced by the 0:36:11.800 --> 0:36:16.600 ancient political writers on the subject of faction. Aristotle, Polybius 0:36:16.719 --> 0:36:22.629 and others. And fundamentally, he viewed political parties as an 0:36:22.630 --> 0:36:25.830 extension of the old mixed regime, so to speak. The 0:36:26.190 --> 0:36:29.830 constitutional order promoted by Aristotle and Polybius and Cicero and 0:36:29.830 --> 0:36:32.150 others that talked about how we need to balance the 0:36:32.150 --> 0:36:35.149 interests of the few, the many and the one which 0:36:35.150 --> 0:36:37.270 you kind of see in the Roman Republic. What you 0:36:37.270 --> 0:36:40.670 saw at that time contemporaneously with Monroe and the Great Britain, 0:36:41.230 --> 0:36:45.630 and he viewed political parties as essentially engines of faction 0:36:45.630 --> 0:36:49.430 in that sense. Right. If we promote political parties, we're 0:36:49.430 --> 0:36:52.150 always going to have be pitting a party for the 0:36:52.150 --> 0:36:54.469 few against the party of the many, which is just 0:36:54.469 --> 0:36:57.950 going to undermine the civil harmony and the concord of 0:36:57.950 --> 0:37:01.030 America's republic. And I think one of the most fascinating 0:37:01.030 --> 0:37:04.190 parts of his presidency is his efforts to suppress this. 0:37:04.430 --> 0:37:07.509 His national tours. He's actually the first president to tour 0:37:07.510 --> 0:37:11.390 the United States. And there's this really striking image during 0:37:11.390 --> 0:37:14.509 it when he when he enters Boston during the 4th 0:37:14.510 --> 0:37:19.540 of July, and he goes to Boston Commons. And there's 0:37:19.940 --> 0:37:22.500 this is a time where, you know, Massachusetts is just 0:37:22.500 --> 0:37:24.700 about to secede or it was thinking about seceding during 0:37:24.700 --> 0:37:27.220 the war of 1812. It's the Federalist stronghold. It didn't 0:37:27.219 --> 0:37:29.739 vote for him, but he viewed this as an opportunity 0:37:29.780 --> 0:37:34.859 for unity. And when he enters into Boston Commons, there's 0:37:35.300 --> 0:37:39.140 a few hundred school children, and all the boys, I believe, 0:37:39.140 --> 0:37:40.899 are in red roses, and all the girls are in 0:37:40.900 --> 0:37:43.500 white roses. And for people who know their history of 0:37:43.500 --> 0:37:45.739 the war of the roses, the red and the white 0:37:45.739 --> 0:37:48.420 rose are the Tudor rose. It's the rose of unity 0:37:48.700 --> 0:37:52.500 that the Tudor household developed is to show that the 0:37:52.500 --> 0:37:55.540 British kingdom was united. And that was a symbol from 0:37:55.540 --> 0:37:59.660 the Federalist to Monroe, saying that the old distinctions between 0:37:59.660 --> 0:38:02.340 Federalist and Republican are no more. We need to unify 0:38:02.340 --> 0:38:04.660 under this common banner of Americans the same way you 0:38:04.660 --> 0:38:09.820 did in 1776. Monroe saw in that brief instant during 0:38:09.820 --> 0:38:13.819 the era of good feelings, that actually some unity is possible. Right? 0:38:13.860 --> 0:38:17.600 We can do this. We're the greatest nation on earth, right? 0:38:17.640 --> 0:38:20.359 We don't need to resort to these old modes and 0:38:20.360 --> 0:38:23.640 structures of the ancient republics to depend on the quote 0:38:23.640 --> 0:38:26.000 he uses in his in his treatise, is that we 0:38:26.040 --> 0:38:28.800 don't always have to be threatened by the bayonets. Right. 0:38:28.840 --> 0:38:31.640 In order for us to work together. Right. Man is 0:38:31.640 --> 0:38:35.719 by nature, he thinks, kind of altruistic and political, right? 0:38:35.960 --> 0:38:37.879 In the sense that we want to work together. We're 0:38:37.880 --> 0:38:42.120 inclined to be in communities. Um, and he truly believed 0:38:42.320 --> 0:38:46.400 that by a firm, although it's romantic, you know, it's 0:38:46.400 --> 0:38:49.360 still nice, which is that if we firmly adhere to 0:38:49.400 --> 0:38:52.320 the principles of the Declaration of Independence, we firmly try 0:38:52.360 --> 0:38:57.319 to live out the spirit of 1776 that we can 0:38:57.360 --> 0:39:00.520 kind of overcome, so to speak, some of the worst 0:39:00.520 --> 0:39:03.920 parts of our nature. And the last facet of it 0:39:03.920 --> 0:39:06.480 that for him made it possible, not merely romantic, is 0:39:06.480 --> 0:39:10.160 that our constitutional order allowed for these things to happen. Right? 0:39:10.200 --> 0:39:12.800 We didn't we don't need to pit the poor against 0:39:12.800 --> 0:39:16.549 the wealthy because we have the separation of powers and 0:39:16.550 --> 0:39:19.350 you have the executive will check the legislature and the 0:39:19.350 --> 0:39:21.710 Supreme Court will check the other branches. You have the 0:39:21.710 --> 0:39:25.509 state governments checking the federal governments. And so just kind 0:39:25.510 --> 0:39:27.710 of allow the process to work out trust in the 0:39:27.710 --> 0:39:31.469 process in the system that the founders created, and focus 0:39:31.469 --> 0:39:34.470 on uniting the nation. That was Monroe's fundamental belief, and 0:39:34.630 --> 0:39:36.790 I think he actually accomplished it for a short amount 0:39:36.790 --> 0:39:37.350 of time. 0:39:37.590 --> 0:39:40.430 So if we look at Monroe, we know he emphasizes 0:39:40.430 --> 0:39:47.190 civic virtue, public education institutions that prepare citizens for self-government. 0:39:47.230 --> 0:39:50.989 What lessons can we perhaps take from that for modern America? 0:39:51.510 --> 0:39:53.830 I think the greatest lesson you can take from Monroe 0:39:53.830 --> 0:39:57.029 is on his view of civic virtue and public education. 0:39:57.390 --> 0:40:00.430 Right now, our education system is in very much a 0:40:00.430 --> 0:40:05.790 bad way, with few exceptions. And Monroe essentially argued for 0:40:05.790 --> 0:40:09.710 what we would call today patriotic education education, which is 0:40:09.710 --> 0:40:15.210 primarily directed towards the formation of a citizen capable of self-government, 0:40:15.570 --> 0:40:18.570 and that kind of cuts against many of the modes 0:40:18.570 --> 0:40:22.489 and orders that currently go through most education systems in 0:40:22.489 --> 0:40:25.730 this country. The easiest one, you know, even beyond some 0:40:25.730 --> 0:40:30.049 of the controversial topics regarding Dei, you know, just on 0:40:30.050 --> 0:40:34.250 the base level of many states still view public education 0:40:34.250 --> 0:40:39.090 or education generally as workforce development, right? That the primary 0:40:39.130 --> 0:40:42.290 goal for for education is to get you a job. 0:40:42.330 --> 0:40:42.969 Mhm. 0:40:43.010 --> 0:40:46.290 Monroe would recognize that as partly true, but you have 0:40:46.290 --> 0:40:51.250 to remember what makes public education actually just right. It's 0:40:51.250 --> 0:40:54.770 not that you're kind of centrally planning the economy, it's 0:40:54.770 --> 0:40:58.569 that we're all in this together and that when you 0:40:58.570 --> 0:41:02.730 go to the ballot box, your vote has a fundamental 0:41:03.090 --> 0:41:06.730 and serious impact on the rights of other citizens. And 0:41:06.730 --> 0:41:11.930 so we all have this shared common interest in ensuring 0:41:11.930 --> 0:41:16.960 that everyone has the basic virtue necessary for self-government. And 0:41:16.960 --> 0:41:20.720 I think really, if we looked at how Monroe and frankly, 0:41:20.719 --> 0:41:23.879 the other Founding Fathers as well, talked about education, it 0:41:23.880 --> 0:41:27.960 provides a really timeless model, right? We're always worried about 0:41:28.000 --> 0:41:31.280 21st century education. How do we deal with education and 0:41:31.320 --> 0:41:33.399 the advent of AI and all these things where it's no, 0:41:33.440 --> 0:41:37.160 we if we go back to how the founders understood it, right. 0:41:37.520 --> 0:41:41.400 We are a public education, as Aristotle recognized, has to 0:41:41.400 --> 0:41:44.560 be directed towards the former regime. And so our first 0:41:44.560 --> 0:41:49.800 and primary obligation should be preparing citizens for this great 0:41:49.840 --> 0:41:53.840 duty that they have to be citizens of our constitutional order. 0:41:54.040 --> 0:41:55.840 And I think that's probably one of the greatest lessons 0:41:55.840 --> 0:41:57.160 that Monroe has for us today. 0:41:57.880 --> 0:42:00.680 Doctor Samuel Leir is former director of the center for 0:42:00.680 --> 0:42:04.760 American Education at Idaho Freedom Foundation, also a recent graduate 0:42:04.760 --> 0:42:08.759 at the Van Angeles School of Statesmanship here at Hillsdale College, 0:42:09.120 --> 0:42:12.740 and his dissertation work on the political thought and statesmanship 0:42:12.739 --> 0:42:15.899 of James Monroe. Doctor Lehrer, thanks so much for joining 0:42:15.900 --> 0:42:18.620 us here on Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. 0:42:18.900 --> 0:42:20.300 Thank you. It was a pleasure. Was all mine. 0:42:20.420 --> 0:42:23.220 That will wrap up this edition of the Radio Free 0:42:23.260 --> 0:42:26.580 Hillsdale Hour. Our thanks to Doctor Steven Smith, your teacher 0:42:26.580 --> 0:42:33.020 for the new Hillsdale College online course, The Iliad at hillsdale.edu/course. 0:42:33.180 --> 0:42:38.380 And Doctor Samuel Lehrer, his dissertation on James Monroe. Remember, 0:42:38.380 --> 0:42:40.900 you can hear new episodes every week on this station. 0:42:40.980 --> 0:42:44.140 You also can find extended versions of some of our interviews, 0:42:44.140 --> 0:42:50.620 or listen anytime to the podcast. Find it@podcasts.apple.edu or wherever 0:42:50.620 --> 0:42:54.900 you get your audio. Until next week, I'm Scott Bertram, 0:42:54.900 --> 0:42:58.620 and this has been the radio free Hillsdale Hour.