WEBVTT - Suicidal Empathy and the West 0:00:06.600 --> 0:00:11.360 From the historic campus of Hillsdale College in Hillsdale, Michigan, 0:00:11.360 --> 0:00:15.160 where the good, the true and the beautiful are taught, 0:00:15.200 --> 0:00:19.960 nurtured and honored. This is the radio free Hillsdale Hour, 0:00:20.000 --> 0:00:23.920 bringing the activity and education of the college to listeners 0:00:23.920 --> 0:00:25.320 across the country. 0:00:25.480 --> 0:00:29.560 Socialism can never die. A new generations of imbeciles will 0:00:29.560 --> 0:00:34.000 come along that will fall prey to that reflex. That 0:00:34.280 --> 0:00:39.160 infantile logic is perfectly justified when I'm five years old 0:00:39.159 --> 0:00:40.280 in kindergarten. 0:00:40.320 --> 0:00:43.880 This is your host, Scott Bertram. Welcome to the Radio 0:00:43.880 --> 0:00:48.760 Free Hillsdale Hour. Part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:52.600 That was God Sword, author of the new book, Suicidal 0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:56.400 Empathy Dying to Be Kind. We'll go in depth with 0:00:56.400 --> 0:01:00.320 him on today's program. Also later on, Doctor Stephen Smith 0:01:00.320 --> 0:01:03.800 from Hillsdale College. He's written a new book, The Last 0:01:03.840 --> 0:01:07.720 Riddle Advice on Living and Dying Well, from the imprisoned 0:01:07.760 --> 0:01:11.480 Saint Thomas More. First, very pleased to be joined now 0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:16.360 by God. He is an evolutionary behavioral scientist, a professor, 0:01:16.400 --> 0:01:20.479 a noted author. His previous book, The Parasitic Mind, is 0:01:20.480 --> 0:01:25.000 brand new. One is Suicidal Empathy, dying to be kind, 0:01:25.360 --> 0:01:28.120 and it is available now. God, thanks so much for 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:28.760 joining us. 0:01:29.160 --> 0:01:30.760 Oh, thank you for having me, Scott. Great to be 0:01:30.760 --> 0:01:31.120 with you. 0:01:31.160 --> 0:01:35.080 Suicidal empathy. A good virtue gone bad, as the first 0:01:35.080 --> 0:01:39.280 chapter says. What's the problem with too much? And you're 0:01:39.319 --> 0:01:42.000 you're careful to say it's not empathy itself. You have 0:01:42.000 --> 0:01:46.240 a problem with. But what is wrong with too much empathy? 0:01:46.520 --> 0:01:51.200 So let me explain it using some evolutionary principles, and 0:01:51.200 --> 0:01:54.040 I'll draw first an analogy, and then it'll lead back 0:01:54.040 --> 0:01:56.440 to your question. So let's suppose that you and I, Scott, 0:01:56.480 --> 0:01:59.960 were to meet at a party and prior to you 0:02:00.000 --> 0:02:03.240 coming up to introduce yourself and shake my hand, I 0:02:03.240 --> 0:02:07.600 noticed that you had been incessantly sneezing into your hand. 0:02:07.600 --> 0:02:10.920 And so I had scanned the environment for potential threats, 0:02:10.919 --> 0:02:15.200 which is an evolutionarily adaptive mechanism. Then I shook your 0:02:15.200 --> 0:02:19.080 hand politely, and then I quietly and discreetly headed off 0:02:19.080 --> 0:02:21.399 to the bathroom to wash my hands because I don't 0:02:21.400 --> 0:02:23.959 want to catch your cold. So what started off as 0:02:23.960 --> 0:02:28.360 an adaptive process can now become maladaptive in the following way. 0:02:28.520 --> 0:02:32.280 If you suffer from germ contamination fears, which is a 0:02:32.280 --> 0:02:35.960 form of obsessive compulsive disorder, you end up sticking in 0:02:35.960 --> 0:02:38.840 the bathroom for the next eight hours until your skin 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:42.680 is falling off, scalding hot water because you can't extricate 0:02:42.680 --> 0:02:46.920 yourself from that action once it begins. So what started 0:02:46.919 --> 0:02:53.240 off as an adaptive well-modulated well calibrated mechanism becomes maladaptive 0:02:53.240 --> 0:02:57.520 when it misfires. The exact same principle applies in the 0:02:57.610 --> 0:03:01.889 distinction between empathy and suicidal empathy. Empathy, as you correctly 0:03:01.889 --> 0:03:05.490 pointed in the introduction to your question, is a perfectly 0:03:05.490 --> 0:03:08.690 laudable virtue. We are a social species for you and 0:03:08.690 --> 0:03:11.650 I to have a meaningful conversation, I need to put 0:03:11.650 --> 0:03:14.490 myself in your mind and vice versa. That's called cognitive 0:03:14.490 --> 0:03:18.890 empathy or theory of mind. But like Aristotle explained to 0:03:18.930 --> 0:03:21.730 us several thousand years ago via his golden mean, too 0:03:21.770 --> 0:03:24.690 little of something is not good. If I have no empathy, 0:03:24.690 --> 0:03:28.010 I'm a psychopath. Too much of something is not good, 0:03:28.010 --> 0:03:30.450 and much of life is finding that sweet spot. So 0:03:30.450 --> 0:03:35.210 suicidal empathy is really a three part monster. Number one, 0:03:35.210 --> 0:03:39.570 it is hyper active. It hyper fires in the wrong 0:03:39.570 --> 0:03:44.410 situations towards the wrong targets of your empathy. Once you 0:03:44.410 --> 0:03:47.010 put those three together, you're well on your way to 0:03:47.050 --> 0:03:48.570 ending Western civilization. 0:03:48.570 --> 0:03:51.170 And you say it is never a good idea to 0:03:51.210 --> 0:03:54.770 ignore the warning signs of reality. So what's the what's 0:03:54.770 --> 0:03:58.290 the flashing light on the dashboard that's telling you that 0:03:58.330 --> 0:04:02.290 far too many of us are suffering from suicidal empathy. 0:04:02.650 --> 0:04:07.050 Well, of course, the book is about identifying endless manifestations 0:04:07.050 --> 0:04:10.170 of suicidal empathy, both in terms of domestic policies and 0:04:10.170 --> 0:04:13.810 foreign policies that speak to your question. But let's take 0:04:14.090 --> 0:04:18.450 maybe the the most ominously flashing sign, although we can 0:04:18.490 --> 0:04:21.250 then drill down to other examples if you'd like. Immigration 0:04:21.250 --> 0:04:24.409 is is a wonderful thing if it is well calibrated. 0:04:24.410 --> 0:04:29.650 Gad Saad is an immigrant who was granted status in 0:04:29.650 --> 0:04:33.650 Canada because I was escaping the Lebanese Civil War. Elon 0:04:33.650 --> 0:04:36.770 Musk is an immigrant who then has gone on. He 0:04:36.770 --> 0:04:38.850 came to Canada first and then moved on to the 0:04:38.850 --> 0:04:43.489 United States. The fact that Gartside and Elon Musk are immigrants, 0:04:43.490 --> 0:04:48.250 as is Ahmed Muhammad Hussain, who is a frequent guest 0:04:48.250 --> 0:04:52.370 in the summer camps of al Qaeda in Waziristan. We're 0:04:52.370 --> 0:04:56.970 all called immigrants, but the likelihood of us equally contributing 0:04:57.010 --> 0:05:01.690 to society, and equally likely in internalizing the ethos of 0:05:01.690 --> 0:05:06.730 American exceptionalism, is not true. To be equal, suicidal empathy 0:05:06.770 --> 0:05:11.010 says no. You're all immigrants. Therefore you all are equally 0:05:11.010 --> 0:05:14.810 likely to share in the beautiful experiment called United States. 0:05:14.810 --> 0:05:18.690 If you argue that there is a difference in the 0:05:18.690 --> 0:05:23.010 likelihood of people coming in and contributing positively, then you 0:05:23.050 --> 0:05:26.370 are a bigot. You're an islamophobe, you're a racist, you're 0:05:26.370 --> 0:05:29.770 a and so on. And therefore, let's have open border policies, 0:05:29.770 --> 0:05:33.410 because everyone should have the chance to contribute to the 0:05:33.410 --> 0:05:37.850 great American experience. So open border policies is the fastest 0:05:37.850 --> 0:05:41.170 way by which suicidal empathy is going to lead to 0:05:41.210 --> 0:05:42.289 the demise of the West. 0:05:42.650 --> 0:05:46.450 God is with us. His new book, Suicidal Empathy Dying 0:05:46.490 --> 0:05:49.810 to Be Kind. So many of these chapters are wonderful. 0:05:49.810 --> 0:05:53.730 I enjoyed the second chapter on forbidden knowledge and the 0:05:53.730 --> 0:05:57.210 idea of calling things what they what they are. You 0:05:57.210 --> 0:06:00.210 just talked about immigration. Are they illegal immigrants? Are they 0:06:00.210 --> 0:06:04.210 illegal aliens? Are they simply undocumented? We have Brett Kavanaugh 0:06:04.210 --> 0:06:07.810 has attempted assassin who for everyone is clearly a man. 0:06:08.050 --> 0:06:11.250 And the media insists on calling him a woman because 0:06:11.250 --> 0:06:14.290 he has asked them to. Why is it so important 0:06:14.290 --> 0:06:18.089 to call things and identify things for what they are? 0:06:18.610 --> 0:06:23.890 Right? Look, a foundational feature of being homo sapiens is 0:06:23.930 --> 0:06:27.330 we have a prefrontal cortex that allows us to navigate 0:06:27.330 --> 0:06:32.130 through daily reality in a way that is meaningful, right? So, 0:06:32.130 --> 0:06:37.330 for example, the most defining feature of our respective personhood 0:06:37.330 --> 0:06:41.810 is our biological sex. We are a sexually dimorphic, sexually 0:06:41.810 --> 0:06:47.050 reproducing species consisting of two phenotypes called male and female. 0:06:47.330 --> 0:06:54.500 That reality was known very clearly to the 117 billion 0:06:54.500 --> 0:06:57.940 people that had lived on earth. That's an actual estimate 0:06:58.100 --> 0:07:02.580 since Homo sapiens became a distinct species. So until 15 0:07:02.580 --> 0:07:07.780 minutes ago, when we took progressive biology courses at Oberlin College, 0:07:07.980 --> 0:07:12.220 we were able to fully adjudicate the very difficult conundrum 0:07:12.260 --> 0:07:16.020 of identifying who's male or female. That's why our ancestors 0:07:16.020 --> 0:07:19.100 were able to do. Or what is that thing called mating? 0:07:19.420 --> 0:07:23.340 But 15 minutes ago, we realized that we had been 0:07:23.340 --> 0:07:29.460 really succumbing to heteronormative reality. In saying that, I know 0:07:29.500 --> 0:07:32.300 that if if you look at God's art, he's actually 0:07:32.300 --> 0:07:36.140 male based on his clear visual markers. That's why I 0:07:36.140 --> 0:07:39.860 need to put a pronoun thing in my bio so 0:07:39.860 --> 0:07:43.420 that you know that I'm really male, not female. Now, 0:07:43.460 --> 0:07:49.700 once we rape and murder truth for such a ridiculous context, 0:07:49.740 --> 0:07:53.180 then all possible truths are up for grabs, and they 0:07:53.180 --> 0:07:57.300 be and they become part of forbidden knowledge. Don't recognize 0:07:57.300 --> 0:08:01.580 something as truthful if it has any chance of hurting 0:08:01.580 --> 0:08:05.780 the feelings of some marginalized group. So what you're doing then, Scott, 0:08:05.780 --> 0:08:08.660 forgive me for the long winded answer is you're applying 0:08:08.660 --> 0:08:14.420 what's called a consequentialist ethic to deontological principle. Deontology are 0:08:14.420 --> 0:08:17.900 absolute statements. So if I say it is never okay 0:08:17.900 --> 0:08:20.900 to lie, that would be deontological statement. If I say 0:08:20.900 --> 0:08:24.260 it is okay to lie, to spare the feelings of 0:08:24.260 --> 0:08:27.100 someone I love, that would be a consequentialist statement for 0:08:27.100 --> 0:08:29.580 most things in life. It makes perfect sense for us 0:08:29.580 --> 0:08:34.580 to be consequentialist, but for foundational principles such as freedom 0:08:34.580 --> 0:08:38.579 of speech, freedom of inquiry, presumption of innocence those have 0:08:38.580 --> 0:08:42.860 to be deontological. Once I apply a consequentialist lens to that, 0:08:43.780 --> 0:08:45.020 we're off and running. 0:08:46.059 --> 0:08:49.260 God is with us. His book, Suicidal Empathy Dying to 0:08:49.300 --> 0:08:54.380 Be Kind A Chapter on cultures and you argue not 0:08:54.380 --> 0:08:59.580 all cultures are equal. Is it harmful for us not 0:08:59.580 --> 0:09:03.939 to acknowledge that perhaps the West is best? 0:09:05.420 --> 0:09:08.220 Well, it's very harmful, right? I mean, if you were 0:09:08.460 --> 0:09:13.380 an individual going to see a therapist for a pathological 0:09:13.380 --> 0:09:17.579 lack of self-esteem, no one would say that's a terrible 0:09:17.580 --> 0:09:20.100 thing that that that you actually are going to see 0:09:20.100 --> 0:09:24.900 a therapist. It's wonderfully healthy for you to self-flagellate all 0:09:24.900 --> 0:09:28.940 day long about how insignificant of a human being you are. 0:09:28.980 --> 0:09:30.940 It makes perfect sense for you to go see a 0:09:30.940 --> 0:09:36.100 therapist who hopefully will extricate you out of your personal self-loathing. 0:09:36.220 --> 0:09:41.300 But if you apply that exact self-loathing to the West, 0:09:41.300 --> 0:09:45.300 then you become someone who we all want to invite 0:09:45.300 --> 0:09:49.620 to the progressive, cool kids parties in Manhattan. Because we're 0:09:49.620 --> 0:09:52.780 defined in our progressive ethos by the fact that we 0:09:52.780 --> 0:09:56.819 recognize that all cultures are equal, except the West is 0:09:56.820 --> 0:09:59.860 less equal than the other cultures. Now what? What is 0:09:59.860 --> 0:10:04.699 the parasitic idea that allows this kind of nonsense to flourish? 0:10:04.740 --> 0:10:07.620 I discussed this, as you kindly pointed out in the 0:10:07.620 --> 0:10:10.580 intro in my one of my previous books, The Parasitic Mind, 0:10:10.620 --> 0:10:15.500 where I talk about cultural relativism as a parasitic idea. 0:10:15.540 --> 0:10:21.100 Cultural relativism renders me impotent to make value judgments about 0:10:21.100 --> 0:10:25.700 the practices and beliefs of another culture, especially, God forbid, 0:10:25.700 --> 0:10:28.620 if that other culture is not a white culture. So 0:10:28.620 --> 0:10:31.660 if the other culture wishes to cut off the clitorises 0:10:31.660 --> 0:10:34.500 of five year old girls, shut up. Racist. If the 0:10:34.500 --> 0:10:38.300 other culture wants to engage in child brides, shut up racist. 0:10:38.300 --> 0:10:41.660 If the other culture wants to stone women to death, 0:10:41.660 --> 0:10:44.380 shut up. Racist. Well, now you could see how if 0:10:44.380 --> 0:10:49.860 I internalize the parasitic idea of cultural relativism that creates 0:10:49.860 --> 0:10:54.220 the fertile ground for my open border immigration policy, because 0:10:54.220 --> 0:10:57.500 I'm no longer able to say, these folks from these 0:10:57.500 --> 0:11:00.900 cultures are more likely to assimilate than those folks from 0:11:00.900 --> 0:11:01.660 that culture. 0:11:01.900 --> 0:11:05.900 We have two interesting, I want to say, experiments, but 0:11:05.940 --> 0:11:07.939 we have two interesting things happening when it comes to 0:11:07.980 --> 0:11:11.620 the world of criminal justice and some of our urban areas. 0:11:11.660 --> 0:11:14.820 There is an increase in policing, an increase in arrests, 0:11:14.820 --> 0:11:17.620 and thus we see a decrease in crime, particularly in 0:11:17.620 --> 0:11:21.900 public transit situations in Washington, D.C., where President Trump has 0:11:21.940 --> 0:11:25.339 had some activity. On the other hand, we have candidates 0:11:25.340 --> 0:11:27.740 and some who are winning primaries here in the United States, 0:11:27.740 --> 0:11:31.220 arguing for no prisons and no police, and making every 0:11:31.220 --> 0:11:34.460 excuse possible for those who are breaking the law. As 0:11:34.460 --> 0:11:37.860 a chapter here where you say reflexively mitigating the actions 0:11:37.860 --> 0:11:42.060 of violent criminals by proposing external root causes, it's not 0:11:42.059 --> 0:11:44.700 that person's problem, not that person's fault that he or 0:11:44.700 --> 0:11:47.670 she is doing what they are doing. I've seen stories 0:11:47.670 --> 0:11:49.949 recently where there are people who are attacked, who are 0:11:49.950 --> 0:11:52.110 hesitant to press charges. They don't want to have the 0:11:52.110 --> 0:11:55.870 person who have who has harmed them to face consequences. 0:11:55.990 --> 0:12:01.429 Why is there such this tendency to want to overlook 0:12:01.429 --> 0:12:04.270 people who clearly want to do harm, either to you 0:12:04.270 --> 0:12:07.030 personally or to society at large? 0:12:07.270 --> 0:12:11.270 Because in their view, the suicidal, empathetic folks. There is 0:12:11.270 --> 0:12:15.990 a competing hierarchy of more of a moral calculus and 0:12:15.990 --> 0:12:20.310 the highest aspiration. As I stroke my luxuriant hair and 0:12:20.309 --> 0:12:23.750 looking at my reflection in the mirror of moral preening, 0:12:23.990 --> 0:12:29.350 is that I do not ever punish felons of color 0:12:29.350 --> 0:12:31.670 because I'm a good person. Now, why is that? What's 0:12:31.670 --> 0:12:34.430 the reflex there? This is why I use the new 0:12:34.429 --> 0:12:38.150 term that I introduced blank slate felons. Blank slate comes 0:12:38.150 --> 0:12:42.030 from another parasitic idea that I discussed in the parasitic 0:12:42.030 --> 0:12:47.069 mind called social constructivism. Social constructivism argues that all realities 0:12:47.070 --> 0:12:51.189 that you see before you are. Due to socialization. We 0:12:51.230 --> 0:12:55.709 are born tabula rasa, empty slate, blank slate. And it 0:12:55.710 --> 0:13:01.670 is only the vagaries of our idiosyncratic life trajectories that 0:13:01.670 --> 0:13:05.950 make us who we become. We're all born with equal potentiality, 0:13:05.990 --> 0:13:08.710 equal likelihood of criminality, and so on and so forth. 0:13:08.790 --> 0:13:13.429 So now imagine if you internalize that ethos, then you 0:13:13.429 --> 0:13:18.990 argue that someone who is born black in the terribly 0:13:18.990 --> 0:13:23.590 white supremacist society known as the United States has already 0:13:23.590 --> 0:13:27.830 been existentially punished. So now you're going to tell me 0:13:27.830 --> 0:13:31.429 that you're going to put this noble felon of color 0:13:31.670 --> 0:13:37.150 in prison. If only he committed 193 previous crimes, don't 0:13:37.150 --> 0:13:39.590 you think you should be a good person and give 0:13:39.590 --> 0:13:42.470 him a second chance? And by second chance, I mean 0:13:42.470 --> 0:13:47.910 194th Opportunity to make good in his life. So because 0:13:47.910 --> 0:13:50.510 I'm a good person who bathes in the infinity pool 0:13:50.510 --> 0:13:54.550 of suicidal empathy, I don't think that it serves anybody 0:13:54.550 --> 0:13:58.270 any purpose to to put a felon of color in prison. 0:13:58.429 --> 0:14:01.030 God. God is with us. We'll continue in a moment 0:14:01.030 --> 0:14:04.830 with more on his new book, Suicidal Empathy. We are 0:14:04.830 --> 0:14:08.589 past July 4th, but we can still celebrate the Declaration 0:14:08.590 --> 0:14:13.710 of Independence and our founding 250 years ago. You might 0:14:13.710 --> 0:14:17.790 remember me telling you about revolutionary America. Well, if you 0:14:17.790 --> 0:14:21.190 missed it in theaters, now you can find it online. 0:14:21.550 --> 0:14:25.350 Search for Revolutionary America on YouTube. It is the first 0:14:25.350 --> 0:14:29.230 documentary about the American Revolution that you can trust from 0:14:29.230 --> 0:14:33.510 Hillsdale College. 250 years ago, a group of ordinary people 0:14:33.510 --> 0:14:38.910 did something very, very extraordinary. With America's anniversary now past us, 0:14:38.950 --> 0:14:41.910 we still have time to remember exactly what they did 0:14:41.950 --> 0:14:47.510 and why it still matters. Watch Revolutionary America from Hillsdale 0:14:47.510 --> 0:14:52.310 College now on YouTube. We continue with God sod. His 0:14:52.310 --> 0:14:57.109 new book is Suicidal Empathy Dying to Be Kind. God, 0:14:57.390 --> 0:15:00.150 as you explain, I think in the introduction early in 0:15:00.150 --> 0:15:04.790 the book, there is narcissism, existential guilt that is driving 0:15:04.790 --> 0:15:08.990 suicidal empathy. And people like the ones you describe see 0:15:08.990 --> 0:15:13.230 this as penance for their unearned advantage in that way. 0:15:13.310 --> 0:15:17.910 Is there any limit to that kind of suicidal empathy? 0:15:18.310 --> 0:15:21.830 No. I mean, so and let me let me describe 0:15:21.830 --> 0:15:24.350 another term that I use in the book that I 0:15:24.350 --> 0:15:26.630 think would be very apropos to what you just asked. 0:15:26.910 --> 0:15:32.110 I often will call someone bathing in just completely fatal 0:15:32.110 --> 0:15:35.590 suicidal empathy. I call them a wood cricket. Why do 0:15:35.590 --> 0:15:39.470 I do that? Because a wood cricket is an insect 0:15:39.470 --> 0:15:43.840 that wants nothing to do with water. It avoids water, 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:48.120 but when it is parasitized by a parasite called a 0:15:48.120 --> 0:15:52.040 hair worm, the hair worm needs the wood cricket to 0:15:52.080 --> 0:15:57.240 jump into water happily and merrily, committing suicide in order 0:15:57.240 --> 0:16:00.760 to suit the reproductive interests of the hair worm, which 0:16:00.760 --> 0:16:04.760 could only complete its reproductive cycle in water. So it 0:16:04.760 --> 0:16:08.640 is literally taking it to the extreme. I'm willing to 0:16:08.680 --> 0:16:11.200 give up my life in this case if I'm a 0:16:11.200 --> 0:16:15.800 wood cricket because I've been parasitized. Okay, well, let's apply 0:16:15.800 --> 0:16:19.840 it to the human context. I and there are endless 0:16:19.880 --> 0:16:22.480 examples of that, but I'll give one that's very powerful. 0:16:23.640 --> 0:16:26.040 A woman is intercepted on the street by one of 0:16:26.040 --> 0:16:29.560 those street interviewers. I think it's in Manchester. She's at 0:16:29.560 --> 0:16:34.320 a free, free Palestine, you know, eradicate the Jews in 0:16:34.320 --> 0:16:38.320 Palestine and so on. And she's she's clearly a British woman. Uh, 0:16:38.560 --> 0:16:42.240 so the interviewer says, oh, you're your free, free Palestine. Okay, well, 0:16:42.240 --> 0:16:44.680 do you know what they do to gay people and 0:16:44.680 --> 0:16:47.920 queer people in Palestine? And she goes, yes, I know 0:16:47.960 --> 0:16:51.680 I'm queer myself. So then he's taken aback and he says, well, 0:16:51.840 --> 0:16:54.560 what do you mean? So you're you're supporting the society 0:16:54.560 --> 0:16:58.360 that if you were there, they would kill you. She goes, yes, 0:16:58.360 --> 0:17:00.920 he goes, but how could that be possible? He's he's 0:17:00.920 --> 0:17:03.800 really incredulous. He doesn't understand it. He hadn't read my 0:17:03.800 --> 0:17:06.640 book yet. And so and so then he and then 0:17:06.640 --> 0:17:10.400 she says, well, I don't care just the. Just because 0:17:10.400 --> 0:17:13.840 they're going to kill me doesn't mean that they're not 0:17:13.880 --> 0:17:18.480 worthy of my support. They have a right to exist. Well, 0:17:18.720 --> 0:17:21.520 that's what a human form would cricket looks like. So 0:17:21.520 --> 0:17:24.560 there is no end to my suicidal empathy. I'm willing 0:17:24.600 --> 0:17:28.119 to die at that altar once I've been parasitized by 0:17:28.119 --> 0:17:29.240 that mindset. 0:17:29.280 --> 0:17:31.560 That leads me to a question about the chapter on 0:17:31.560 --> 0:17:36.080 meritocracy scientific knowledge. You say that it's tantamount to white 0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:40.560 supremacy in the minds of those who are suicidally Empathetic. 0:17:40.560 --> 0:17:43.120 And yet, if we look at the areas in which 0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:47.040 those things don't matter anymore, you point out aviation people 0:17:47.040 --> 0:17:51.160 flying our planes, uh, medicine at UCLA has come under 0:17:51.160 --> 0:17:54.520 fire for their admission practices and how they gauge who 0:17:54.520 --> 0:17:57.680 is going to be admitted to their doctoral programs. These 0:17:57.680 --> 0:18:02.880 are areas in which we all can bear the consequences. 0:18:02.880 --> 0:18:05.720 It's not some, some, some thing out in space that 0:18:05.720 --> 0:18:07.800 has no bearing on our life. The people who fly 0:18:07.800 --> 0:18:10.240 our planes, the people who diagnose our illnesses, the people 0:18:10.240 --> 0:18:13.080 who are practicing surgery on us. These are people who 0:18:13.119 --> 0:18:16.960 are going through this idea that meritocracy and scientific knowledge 0:18:16.960 --> 0:18:22.240 itself are white supremacy. Do people understand the potential consequences 0:18:22.240 --> 0:18:25.520 of that and not care? Like that woman you explained? 0:18:26.400 --> 0:18:30.080 Uh, well, in academia, they don't care. The average person 0:18:30.080 --> 0:18:34.119 walking in the street understands how insane this is, but 0:18:34.119 --> 0:18:36.760 they feel as though they don't have the power to 0:18:36.800 --> 0:18:39.800 affect change, which is simply not true. If you speak out. 0:18:39.840 --> 0:18:43.600 The silent majority. The tests. All this stuff. But they 0:18:43.640 --> 0:18:47.359 are completely locked in. A tragedy of the commons. You 0:18:47.359 --> 0:18:50.720 know what? Let God speak out. He's a big boy. 0:18:50.720 --> 0:18:53.560 He can handle it on our behalf. I simply have 0:18:53.560 --> 0:18:56.760 too many costs to bear if I actually speak out 0:18:56.760 --> 0:18:59.760 against this nonsense. God can handle it on our behalf. 0:18:59.760 --> 0:19:04.040 But the reality is. I mean, it's aviation. It's medicine. 0:19:04.040 --> 0:19:07.760 But let's discuss another one. How about firefighting? How about 0:19:07.760 --> 0:19:12.600 the deputy chief of the L.A. Fire Department, who is 0:19:12.600 --> 0:19:18.320 a obese woman of color, who is also queer, explaining 0:19:18.359 --> 0:19:21.360 to the rest of us simpletons that listen when when 0:19:21.359 --> 0:19:24.919 you're going somewhere, you know, to save someone from a 0:19:24.920 --> 0:19:28.480 burning fire, you want to know that the person who's 0:19:28.480 --> 0:19:32.840 saving you looks like you. And then using my now 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:38.480 legendary satire, I said, absolutely right. When you are an obese, 0:19:38.720 --> 0:19:42.160 queer woman who weighs as much as a California seal. 0:19:42.200 --> 0:19:47.520 You don't want some tall, muscular, heterosexual firefighter saving you 0:19:47.520 --> 0:19:53.280 because he can't understand your plight. You want an equally immobile, fat, 0:19:53.280 --> 0:19:57.720 queer lesbian to get you out of your predicament, because 0:19:57.720 --> 0:20:01.439 then she really understands your plight. That person who uttered 0:20:01.440 --> 0:20:06.080 those words, Scott, was not being satirical. She has fully 0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:11.440 internalized the cancer known as diversity, inclusion, and equity. So 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:14.879 from her vantage point, what she said makes perfect sense. 0:20:15.200 --> 0:20:18.399 God is with us. Suicidal empathy is his new book, 0:20:18.400 --> 0:20:20.880 Dying to Be Kind. We have to talk a bit 0:20:20.880 --> 0:20:24.040 about socialism and the rise of some of these DSA 0:20:24.040 --> 0:20:27.880 candidates here in the United States, recently winning primaries in 0:20:27.880 --> 0:20:31.480 New York, but also winning mayoral elections across the country. 0:20:31.760 --> 0:20:35.440 You say in the book that Socialism's rise is fueled 0:20:35.440 --> 0:20:40.609 by the allure of empathetic fairness. Would you point to 0:20:40.650 --> 0:20:44.370 that as the primary factor in what we've seen over 0:20:44.369 --> 0:20:47.970 the past few years, and perhaps this year, in particular 0:20:48.290 --> 0:20:52.010 with these DSA Democratic Socialists of America candidates winning and 0:20:52.010 --> 0:20:56.650 the the allure of socialism among some of our younger, 0:20:56.890 --> 0:21:01.530 college educated Americans, but also some of our wealthier white 0:21:01.570 --> 0:21:03.570 liberal Americans as well. 0:21:04.490 --> 0:21:09.650 Exactly. Right now, it's a one two punch. So it's first, 0:21:09.650 --> 0:21:13.889 one of the seven deadly sins is envy. In the 0:21:13.890 --> 0:21:19.770 Ten Commandments, we have the allure of covetousness, right? Or look, he, 0:21:19.890 --> 0:21:24.090 that bastard neighbor of mine has that, uh, Porsche, and 0:21:24.090 --> 0:21:27.969 I don't have it. Right. That's positional economy. I compare 0:21:27.970 --> 0:21:32.649 myself to the other. So take envy. Which moral philosophers 0:21:32.650 --> 0:21:36.810 and theologians have known as a alluring trapped as part 0:21:36.810 --> 0:21:40.610 of the architecture of human beings, and then coupled that, 0:21:40.810 --> 0:21:45.810 coupled that with the supposed empathy of creating equality. It's 0:21:45.810 --> 0:21:50.570 simply unfair. If I'm a suicidally empathetic person that Elon 0:21:50.570 --> 0:21:55.010 Musk has so much money, when someone else who works 0:21:55.010 --> 0:21:58.810 very hard doesn't have enough to necessarily put food on 0:21:58.810 --> 0:22:04.730 the table, that existential reality is grossly unfair. So why 0:22:04.730 --> 0:22:09.530 don't we have an empathetic overlord? Because they are seeking 0:22:09.570 --> 0:22:14.929 to maximize existential fairness. Come and take all the money 0:22:14.930 --> 0:22:19.890 from those gluttonous, wealthy people and give it to other people. Therefore, 0:22:19.890 --> 0:22:23.690 we could all live in this wonderful unicornia where we're 0:22:23.690 --> 0:22:28.250 all equally miserable. Right. And so it is absolutely rooted 0:22:28.250 --> 0:22:32.330 in that reflex that socialism can never die. That's why 0:22:32.330 --> 0:22:36.690 I call it akin to the phoenix that always arises 0:22:36.690 --> 0:22:40.530 from the ashes. Because as long as we'll be reproducing 0:22:40.530 --> 0:22:45.210 new members of Homo sapiens, a new generations of imbeciles 0:22:45.210 --> 0:22:49.010 will come along that will fall prey to that reflex. 0:22:49.010 --> 0:22:54.250 But now here's the issue, Scott. That infantile logic is 0:22:54.250 --> 0:22:58.370 perfectly justified when I'm five years old in kindergarten, this 0:22:58.369 --> 0:23:01.290 is when I learned that sharing is caring. It's not 0:23:01.290 --> 0:23:05.290 right for Johnny to have four toys while Billy is 0:23:05.290 --> 0:23:08.689 sitting twiddling his thumbs with no toys. So we teach 0:23:08.690 --> 0:23:12.410 them to internalize the message of sharing is caring. But 0:23:12.410 --> 0:23:16.090 then once I become older and I'm slapped by this 0:23:16.090 --> 0:23:20.209 thing called reality, I understand that human beings are a 0:23:20.210 --> 0:23:23.770 hierarchical species. Now, why is that important? Because some of 0:23:23.770 --> 0:23:28.330 us are taller or shorter, harder working or less harder working. 0:23:28.330 --> 0:23:34.330 So we are not communistic in our inherent human nature. E.O. Wilson, 0:23:34.330 --> 0:23:39.129 the famous Harvard biologist who studied social ants. Social ants 0:23:39.130 --> 0:23:42.810 are communistic. There is a reproductive queen, and then there 0:23:42.850 --> 0:23:47.450 is an indistinguishable class of worker ants and soldier ants. 0:23:47.450 --> 0:23:51.169 So it is literally the case that social ants are communistic. 0:23:51.490 --> 0:23:54.770 When he was asked Professor Wilson, what are your thoughts 0:23:54.770 --> 0:23:58.770 on socialism slash communism, he gave arguably the greatest answer 0:23:58.770 --> 0:24:03.170 of all time. He said, great idea. Wrong species. So 0:24:03.170 --> 0:24:08.369 when you are constantly imposing a socio political economic system 0:24:08.530 --> 0:24:13.490 that is incongruent with our phylogenetic history, it shouldn't be 0:24:13.490 --> 0:24:17.369 a surprise that it will always fail wherever it's tried. 0:24:17.369 --> 0:24:23.010 But apparently Bernie Sanders and occasional cortex AOC will usher 0:24:23.050 --> 0:24:26.570 the real socialism once they take power from the rest 0:24:26.570 --> 0:24:26.970 of us. 0:24:27.290 --> 0:24:30.369 God is with us. Suicidal empathy is the new book. 0:24:30.410 --> 0:24:34.219 You say that Donald Trump's second election does not spell 0:24:34.220 --> 0:24:37.419 the end of the lunacy that has gripped the West. 0:24:37.619 --> 0:24:42.900 Is there any long term change that you see from 0:24:42.940 --> 0:24:47.580 the president's second term that can't be undercut by someone 0:24:47.580 --> 0:24:51.100 else coming to power, someone else becoming president for from 0:24:51.100 --> 0:24:51.980 a different party? 0:24:52.859 --> 0:24:55.460 The you want me to lie or give you the honest. 0:24:55.500 --> 0:24:56.780 Give us the honest truth. 0:24:57.020 --> 0:24:59.740 No. The fact that Donald Trump has come in in 0:24:59.740 --> 0:25:02.820 the same way that he signed an executive order ending 0:25:02.820 --> 0:25:06.820 the trance lunacy in collegiate sports, the next person comes 0:25:06.820 --> 0:25:09.700 in and reverses it through the same mechanism. This is 0:25:09.700 --> 0:25:13.300 why I said exactly when you led with your question, 0:25:13.300 --> 0:25:16.580 that we can be we can breathe a sigh of 0:25:16.580 --> 0:25:20.700 relief momentarily, that it was Donald Trump that won and 0:25:20.700 --> 0:25:23.740 not the opponent, because then that would have just, you know, 0:25:23.780 --> 0:25:26.540 doubled and tripled down on all the lunacy. But he 0:25:26.540 --> 0:25:31.980 only serves as a temporary temporal doorstop for in order 0:25:31.980 --> 0:25:37.100 for the problem to go away forever. The parasitic ideas 0:25:37.100 --> 0:25:41.180 that eventually lead to suicidal empathy have to be vanquished. 0:25:41.220 --> 0:25:46.020 Now that doesn't happen by having one president serve one 0:25:46.020 --> 0:25:50.540 term and hopefully getting rid of the woke monster. You really. Now, 0:25:50.580 --> 0:25:53.100 let me just kind of give a timestamp on some 0:25:53.100 --> 0:25:56.260 of these parasitic ideas, depending on which parasitic idea we're 0:25:56.260 --> 0:26:01.740 speaking of. These spawned and flourished on university campuses somewhere 0:26:01.740 --> 0:26:04.780 between 50 to 100 years ago. So, for example, cultural 0:26:04.780 --> 0:26:09.940 relativism was developed by a cultural anthropologist named Franz Boas. 0:26:09.940 --> 0:26:15.340 That's about 100 years ago. The postmodernist, uh, monster as 0:26:15.340 --> 0:26:18.219 a parasitic idea was really developed by a bunch of 0:26:18.220 --> 0:26:22.980 French philosophers Jacques Derrida, Jacques Lacan, Michel Foucault. This is 0:26:22.980 --> 0:26:25.540 about 50 or 60 years ago now. I'd like to 0:26:25.540 --> 0:26:28.580 think that it won't take 50 to 100 years to 0:26:28.619 --> 0:26:32.340 eradicate that which took that long to flourish. But it's 0:26:32.340 --> 0:26:34.700 not going to start and end with Donald Trump, I'm 0:26:34.700 --> 0:26:35.379 afraid to say. 0:26:35.700 --> 0:26:38.140 God. God is the author of the new book, Suicidal 0:26:38.140 --> 0:26:42.100 Empathy Dying to Be Kind. It's available now. And there's 0:26:42.100 --> 0:26:44.740 the cover. God, thanks so much for joining us here 0:26:44.740 --> 0:26:47.020 on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. 0:26:47.740 --> 0:26:49.700 Great chatting with you. Thank you for having me, Scott. 0:26:49.980 --> 0:26:53.660 Up next, Doctor Stephen Smith from Hillsdale College will discuss 0:26:53.660 --> 0:26:56.580 his new book on the advice from the imprisoned Saint 0:26:56.619 --> 0:27:00.860 Thomas More. I'm Scott Bertram. This is the radio free 0:27:00.900 --> 0:27:26.460 Hillsdale Hour. Welcome back to the radio free Hillsdale Hour. 0:27:26.500 --> 0:27:29.500 I'm Scott Bertram. Be sure to follow us on Acts 0:27:29.540 --> 0:27:34.340 at Hillsdale Radio for updated show and guest information. We're 0:27:34.340 --> 0:27:37.100 joined by Doctor Stephen Smith. He is Temple family chair 0:27:37.100 --> 0:27:41.580 of English literature at Hillsdale College, also dean of Humanities here. 0:27:41.820 --> 0:27:45.619 And his new book is The Last Riddle Advice on 0:27:45.619 --> 0:27:49.580 Living and Dying Well from the Imprisoned Saint Thomas More. 0:27:50.020 --> 0:27:51.860 Doctor Smith, thanks so much for joining us. 0:27:52.100 --> 0:27:54.300 Thank you for having me, Scott. Pleasure to be here. 0:27:54.340 --> 0:27:58.860 Interesting, uh, interesting conversation today about these letters from Thomas 0:27:58.900 --> 0:28:02.220 Moore that he wrote in your analysis of them. For 0:28:02.220 --> 0:28:04.580 our listeners who might not be so familiar, we always 0:28:04.580 --> 0:28:07.659 like to begin by cluing them in. So who was 0:28:07.660 --> 0:28:09.940 Thomas Moore and why was he even imprisoned? 0:28:11.180 --> 0:28:16.900 He was the famous English statesman, father and friend who 0:28:16.900 --> 0:28:24.459 lived from 1478 to 1535, and he was an author 0:28:24.460 --> 0:28:28.380 who was famous for writing Utopia. He was also speaker 0:28:28.380 --> 0:28:32.260 of the House, Lord Chancellor of England. And then in 0:28:32.260 --> 0:28:37.619 the events of the 1530s, he was imprisoned for refusing 0:28:37.660 --> 0:28:42.180 to take the oath of the act of succession that 0:28:42.900 --> 0:28:46.420 had come his way through Henry and Henry's ministers. He 0:28:46.420 --> 0:28:50.580 was imprisoned in the Tower of London in 1534, and 0:28:50.580 --> 0:28:55.460 then on July 1st, 1535, he was put on trial, 0:28:55.460 --> 0:28:58.460 found guilty of malicious treason, and he was executed on 0:28:58.500 --> 0:29:01.500 Tower Hill on July 6th, 1535. 0:29:01.540 --> 0:29:04.620 Also mentioned that there's a series of videos at Thomas 0:29:04.660 --> 0:29:08.340 More studies.org, a video series that Doctor Smith's involved in. 0:29:08.380 --> 0:29:10.260 You can check out. We will find out a bit 0:29:10.260 --> 0:29:14.420 more about that later. These writings in The Last Riddle, 0:29:14.860 --> 0:29:19.340 you describe them as meditations on life's ultimate questions, which 0:29:19.340 --> 0:29:22.260 like to become very clear when you're in his position. 0:29:22.540 --> 0:29:25.500 Why do you think these final months of his life 0:29:25.500 --> 0:29:28.910 still fascinate readers some 500 years later. 0:29:28.950 --> 0:29:30.870 Well, the idea of the book is that you can 0:29:30.870 --> 0:29:36.510 begin on the morning of Moore's first interrogation and follow 0:29:36.550 --> 0:29:40.990 his footsteps, his mind, his heart, through these letters and prayers, 0:29:40.990 --> 0:29:44.190 right to the trial and to his death. And I 0:29:44.190 --> 0:29:48.830 think that the reason the tower is so fascinating to, 0:29:48.910 --> 0:29:52.550 to readers and to history is that it really shows 0:29:52.550 --> 0:29:56.270 us a great man at the testing point of his life. 0:29:57.110 --> 0:30:01.030 Moore was in his 50s at this point. He had 0:30:01.030 --> 0:30:04.910 held many offices. He was famous. But this really is 0:30:04.910 --> 0:30:08.030 the testing point of his whole life, of his integrity 0:30:08.670 --> 0:30:13.070 and questions of principle and compromise and virtue come up. 0:30:13.230 --> 0:30:17.630 But also, it's a family drama, a drama of friendship 0:30:18.110 --> 0:30:20.950 and a drama about the rule of law as well. 0:30:21.110 --> 0:30:24.030 So the story of the Tower of London and the 0:30:24.070 --> 0:30:31.190 plight of this great man for those 15 months is powerful, fascinating, unforgettable. 0:30:31.230 --> 0:30:34.590 Before he became a martyr, you mentioned all these things 0:30:34.590 --> 0:30:39.030 Moore had done and accomplished lawyer, statesman, diplomat, husband, father. 0:30:39.190 --> 0:30:43.710 Do we see a particular side of Thomas Moore emerge 0:30:43.710 --> 0:30:46.830 clearly in these writings inside the Last Riddle? 0:30:46.870 --> 0:30:50.350 I think that Moore is among the most versatile authors 0:30:50.350 --> 0:30:53.510 I have studied personally. So yes, he has many sides, 0:30:54.190 --> 0:31:00.150 kind of many minded, many sided, versatile man. And I 0:31:00.150 --> 0:31:05.390 think that in the tower letters, um, the lawyer certainly 0:31:05.390 --> 0:31:10.270 comes out in regard to the rule of law. Um, 0:31:11.070 --> 0:31:17.150 on the more personal side, the fatherhood of Thomas Moore, uh, 0:31:17.190 --> 0:31:22.710 comes out and his lifelong commitment to friendship. Finally, one 0:31:22.710 --> 0:31:25.790 of the great Yale scholars of Thomas More. Louis Martz 0:31:26.230 --> 0:31:30.630 has called the letters in particular some of More's greatest 0:31:30.630 --> 0:31:34.390 literary masterpieces. So there's an art and a beauty to 0:31:34.430 --> 0:31:38.950 the writing that I think makes them, um, just unforgettable. 0:31:39.430 --> 0:31:42.030 Talking with Doctor Stephen Smith, his new book, The Last 0:31:42.030 --> 0:31:45.469 Riddle Advice on Living and Dying Well from the imprisoned 0:31:45.510 --> 0:31:49.510 Saint Thomas More. When you read these letters inside the 0:31:49.510 --> 0:31:53.110 last riddle, you. You do notice that there's warmth and 0:31:53.110 --> 0:31:56.950 there's humor. Uh, even for a man in More's position, 0:31:56.950 --> 0:32:01.190 how does he remain cheerful while facing his ultimate end? 0:32:02.070 --> 0:32:04.950 Well, the title refers to the last riddle, refers to 0:32:04.990 --> 0:32:07.590 the riddle he told his daughter he was living in 0:32:07.590 --> 0:32:10.510 the Tower of London, which is how a man may 0:32:10.510 --> 0:32:14.430 lose his head and have no harm. Mhm. So I, 0:32:14.750 --> 0:32:17.710 joking with the production team at Word on Fire. It's 0:32:17.710 --> 0:32:22.110 a bit of a guide to decapitation. Personal kind of 0:32:22.110 --> 0:32:25.990 Mary guide to How to Lose Your Head. But it's 0:32:25.990 --> 0:32:28.550 a good question. You know, I don't think the family 0:32:28.550 --> 0:32:31.510 thought the riddle was all that funny. Sure, sure. They 0:32:31.510 --> 0:32:35.910 wanted their their father husband. They wanted him back. They 0:32:35.910 --> 0:32:39.550 wanted him out of the tower. But he was famous 0:32:39.550 --> 0:32:42.870 for his humor. Scott. Um, he's described like a laughing 0:32:42.910 --> 0:32:47.350 philosopher early in his life. The Merry More. This is 0:32:47.350 --> 0:32:51.070 the man who jested on the way to decapitation, famously. 0:32:51.790 --> 0:32:53.590 But I think the important thing to see here is 0:32:53.590 --> 0:32:56.790 that the humor is not frivolous. It's not just like, 0:32:56.830 --> 0:32:58.990 you know, we're just not reaching that guy. Like, you know, 0:32:59.430 --> 0:33:02.590 he's just out of place. Humor. It was a deep 0:33:02.630 --> 0:33:08.390 sense of humor at human things, at earthly things, a mirthfulness, 0:33:08.430 --> 0:33:11.430 a merriment. And what you find if you study the 0:33:11.470 --> 0:33:15.830 especially the tower writings, is that his good humor was 0:33:15.830 --> 0:33:19.430 an expression of his hope. Mhm. Uh, his hope in God, 0:33:19.430 --> 0:33:23.950 his perspective on eternity and on human life. And yes, 0:33:23.950 --> 0:33:26.670 he did love laughing at the ridiculous, as so many 0:33:26.670 --> 0:33:29.150 of us do. He had a keen eye for it. 0:33:29.350 --> 0:33:32.630 But his last wish at trial, even to those who 0:33:32.670 --> 0:33:34.910 who condemned him, was that they would all make merry 0:33:34.910 --> 0:33:39.870 together in heaven. So he sees eternity as a place 0:33:39.870 --> 0:33:42.550 of laughter and good humor as well. 0:33:42.950 --> 0:33:46.590 Is there a particular letter inside the last riddle where 0:33:46.590 --> 0:33:50.910 we might encounter, or you think we encounter the real 0:33:50.950 --> 0:33:52.750 Thomas More most vividly? 0:33:53.470 --> 0:33:56.590 Yeah. I think that, um, there are about three different 0:33:56.590 --> 0:34:02.030 answers to that question. Um, the interrogation letters, you really 0:34:02.070 --> 0:34:06.510 see Moore's poise and command and peace of soul under 0:34:06.510 --> 0:34:12.070 tremendous pressure. That's a very hard to do in real time. 0:34:12.550 --> 0:34:16.670 And those interrogation letters show us the high stakes life 0:34:16.670 --> 0:34:22.840 and death interrogation of Thomas Moore. But obviously the letters 0:34:22.840 --> 0:34:26.560 to his daughter, I think, are where that, uh, fatherhood 0:34:26.560 --> 0:34:30.960 comes out and the friendship, uh, very beautifully. His relationship 0:34:30.960 --> 0:34:35.600 with his daughter was famous. Um, Erasmus, you know, was, 0:34:35.640 --> 0:34:39.120 was very familiar with it, for example. And Moore took 0:34:39.120 --> 0:34:44.680 great pains educating his daughters. So the more Meg relationship 0:34:44.680 --> 0:34:46.799 is at the heart of the book. And maybe the 0:34:46.800 --> 0:34:49.920 last one I would single out is the letter to 0:34:49.960 --> 0:34:53.560 Anthony Bonvisi, um, which he wrote a month before his 0:34:53.560 --> 0:34:57.440 trial and death. And it is a tribute to friendship 0:34:57.480 --> 0:35:02.520 across an entire lifetime, I will confess, is probably my 0:35:02.520 --> 0:35:05.840 favorite letter, along with his last letter to Meg, um, 0:35:05.920 --> 0:35:09.440 which was written the day before his death. So the 0:35:09.440 --> 0:35:13.120 interrogation letters, the letters to Meg, and then the letter 0:35:13.480 --> 0:35:17.480 to this man of mystery, Anthony Bonvisi, his lifelong friend, 0:35:17.480 --> 0:35:20.839 celebrating the Goodness. The beauty of friendship. 0:35:21.239 --> 0:35:24.239 Doctor Stephen Smith with us. He is the Dean of Humanities, 0:35:24.280 --> 0:35:27.440 temple family chair of English Lit here at Hillsdale College. 0:35:27.440 --> 0:35:30.040 His new book is The Last Riddle on the letters 0:35:30.040 --> 0:35:34.160 from Saint Thomas More. The letters include these ones to 0:35:34.200 --> 0:35:36.760 his daughter you mentioned earlier it's a family story, too. 0:35:37.080 --> 0:35:40.480 They're very famous. In one of these letters, he cautions 0:35:40.480 --> 0:35:45.520 his daughter not to let natural affection override conscience. How 0:35:45.520 --> 0:35:51.239 does Moore himself balance love for his family with loyalty 0:35:51.239 --> 0:35:54.640 to what he believes is right? Is he could have 0:35:54.760 --> 0:35:56.880 he could avoid all this by taking the oath, right? 0:35:57.320 --> 0:35:57.680 He sure. 0:35:57.719 --> 0:35:59.520 Could. He sure could. So how does he how does 0:35:59.520 --> 0:36:00.440 he balance that? 0:36:00.480 --> 0:36:03.680 Yeah. I mean, that door, he he could have unlocked 0:36:03.680 --> 0:36:07.279 it from the inside and walked right out that door. Um, 0:36:07.400 --> 0:36:14.400 I think he sees his stand of conscience and his, um, 0:36:15.320 --> 0:36:18.640 stand of truth as being the best way he can 0:36:18.640 --> 0:36:22.759 love his family, even though it may have maybe a 0:36:22.760 --> 0:36:27.160 tough form of love. His wife really wanted him to 0:36:27.200 --> 0:36:29.440 come out of the tower to come to his senses. 0:36:29.800 --> 0:36:35.400 His daughter wanted him not to get himself executed. So 0:36:35.440 --> 0:36:42.000 it's it's a really painful in part story. And yet 0:36:42.400 --> 0:36:44.959 at the heart of it is this great kind of 0:36:45.000 --> 0:36:48.920 man of with great piece of soul fidelity to conscience 0:36:48.920 --> 0:36:53.359 and truth. What I would say is his consistency and 0:36:53.360 --> 0:36:58.200 his stand was the best way he could actually love them. Um, 0:36:58.560 --> 0:37:00.400 as difficult as it was for some of them to 0:37:00.400 --> 0:37:01.640 understand at the time. 0:37:02.200 --> 0:37:05.600 One of the recurring themes through the letters is that 0:37:05.600 --> 0:37:11.160 suffering can actually become spiritually meaningful. How does Moore try 0:37:11.160 --> 0:37:13.840 to teach that lesson to his daughter, Meg? 0:37:14.960 --> 0:37:18.400 Well, Moore had a lifelong devotion to the passion of 0:37:18.440 --> 0:37:24.000 the of the Christ. And. And so he understood his 0:37:24.000 --> 0:37:26.920 own suffering in the light of the cross. And he. 0:37:26.920 --> 0:37:30.960 And he tried to share that not only with Meg, 0:37:31.200 --> 0:37:34.520 but also with all of his friends outside of the tower. 0:37:34.520 --> 0:37:38.239 And he had many. If readers are interested in the 0:37:38.239 --> 0:37:42.400 full view of Thomas More on Suffering, the two other 0:37:42.400 --> 0:37:44.759 works he wrote in the tower are the Dialogue of 0:37:44.760 --> 0:37:49.000 Comfort against tribulation and the Sadness of Christ. And both 0:37:49.000 --> 0:37:52.600 of these, among other things, are a profound meditation on 0:37:52.640 --> 0:37:58.520 human suffering on the cross and on the goodness of 0:37:58.560 --> 0:38:03.600 of it ultimately. So, yes, more, more suffered. But he 0:38:03.600 --> 0:38:06.839 put his suffering to good service, to the service of 0:38:06.840 --> 0:38:11.000 his family, of his friends, of his God, of his country. 0:38:11.560 --> 0:38:14.840 Doctor Stephen Smith, with his book The Last Riddle Advice 0:38:14.840 --> 0:38:18.930 on Living and dying well from the imprisoned Saint Thomas More. 0:38:19.489 --> 0:38:24.049 These letters in the last riddle reveal any moments of doubt, 0:38:24.250 --> 0:38:28.890 fear or uncertainty. Uh, was more the real deal. Was he. 0:38:28.930 --> 0:38:32.090 Is he as steadfast as. Perhaps we. We imagine he was. 0:38:33.210 --> 0:38:37.810 Well, he had spent his entire life practicing the virtues 0:38:37.810 --> 0:38:43.010 that are exhibited in these letters, cultivating them, struggling. An 0:38:43.010 --> 0:38:47.770 ordinary human being, sharing human nature with all of us. 0:38:48.450 --> 0:38:52.130 But his was a lifelong project. You know, he didn't 0:38:52.130 --> 0:38:56.450 just appear in the Tower of London in April 1534, 0:38:57.250 --> 0:39:00.570 you know, ready to roll. He he had been living 0:39:00.570 --> 0:39:07.609 a particular way deliberately, courageously, day by day for an 0:39:07.610 --> 0:39:12.489 entire lifetime. When he came to the Tower of London. 0:39:12.730 --> 0:39:14.810 So part of the story of Maud, it's important to 0:39:14.810 --> 0:39:22.250 really understand is that is that lifelong, um, preparation and, um, 0:39:22.610 --> 0:39:25.410 even over the oath, you know, he didn't just sort 0:39:25.410 --> 0:39:26.890 of say, you know, one day I don't, I'm not 0:39:26.890 --> 0:39:29.850 going to take the oath. It, it was the fruit 0:39:29.850 --> 0:39:35.890 of much study, much deliberation, making himself sure. Uh, and then, 0:39:36.210 --> 0:39:39.569 you know, taking that, that stand of conscience and not 0:39:39.570 --> 0:39:42.529 budging from it. I mean, his peace of soul and 0:39:42.530 --> 0:39:46.770 his consistency are quite striking in these letters. 0:39:47.170 --> 0:39:51.330 Throughout the letters, friendship, friendship seems almost as important as 0:39:51.330 --> 0:39:56.290 politics or theology. Why was friendship so central to More's 0:39:56.330 --> 0:39:58.890 understanding of living a good life? 0:39:59.170 --> 0:40:04.370 Well, more, uh, was famous for being a friend, and 0:40:04.370 --> 0:40:08.490 he enjoyed the largest number of friendships of. Well, among 0:40:08.489 --> 0:40:11.370 many of the great folks I've studied. It's an incredibly 0:40:11.370 --> 0:40:14.490 rich life of friendship, right down to that last letter 0:40:14.489 --> 0:40:18.689 I mentioned. Second to last letter in the Tower of London. Erasmus, 0:40:18.690 --> 0:40:21.290 his moor's lifelong friend, said that if you were looking 0:40:21.290 --> 0:40:24.050 for a great example of true friendship, you can find 0:40:24.050 --> 0:40:27.730 it to no better purpose than in Thomas More. He 0:40:28.010 --> 0:40:34.170 loved friendship, Scott. He wrote poems on friendship. Friendship unites 0:40:34.210 --> 0:40:37.330 his writings from from beginning to end of his life. 0:40:38.010 --> 0:40:42.090 And so I think that he joins Cicero and Aristotle 0:40:42.290 --> 0:40:48.650 and Aquinas and Scripture in seeing the greatness of friendship 0:40:48.930 --> 0:40:53.410 and the need that we have for it. Also, ultimately 0:40:53.690 --> 0:40:58.170 understanding his relationship with God in terms of friendship as well. 0:40:58.489 --> 0:41:02.450 Moore spends a good deal of time thinking and writing 0:41:02.450 --> 0:41:04.850 about the thing you might think he'd be thinking and 0:41:04.850 --> 0:41:09.450 writing about, which is his death. What does he believe 0:41:09.450 --> 0:41:14.610 through these writings? A person should focus on one confronting mortality. 0:41:14.969 --> 0:41:18.650 Well, certainly it should be taken seriously, and human life 0:41:18.690 --> 0:41:23.490 should be seen with a reliable, true perspective in its entirety. 0:41:24.130 --> 0:41:27.770 And human beings, we tend to see things differently. We 0:41:27.770 --> 0:41:29.650 tend to put things out and push things out of view. 0:41:29.930 --> 0:41:33.650 So we need that, that full, real perspective. But I 0:41:33.650 --> 0:41:36.969 think in the, in the here and now, it's that 0:41:36.969 --> 0:41:42.930 focus on, um, living well now, uh, for the right reasons, 0:41:42.930 --> 0:41:46.970 with good conscience, with peace of soul, with real desire, 0:41:46.969 --> 0:41:51.690 with love, with faith. That is the best preparation. There's 0:41:51.690 --> 0:41:54.529 a prayer, Scott, that he wrote right toward the end. 0:41:55.090 --> 0:41:58.650 And it's within days of his death. And he and 0:41:58.650 --> 0:42:02.490 he concludes, the things that I pray for in this prayer, Lord, 0:42:02.489 --> 0:42:06.009 give me the grace to labor for. So even at 0:42:06.010 --> 0:42:09.370 the very end, with just hours to live, days to live, 0:42:09.850 --> 0:42:15.529 he Still had this present business, this present work to 0:42:15.570 --> 0:42:20.089 perform with God's grace, with God's help. And he put 0:42:20.090 --> 0:42:24.170 himself into that. And I think that was the, um, 0:42:24.290 --> 0:42:27.930 that living well, the best preparation. And one, one of 0:42:27.930 --> 0:42:30.770 the reasons for the subtitle of the book, Advice on 0:42:30.770 --> 0:42:34.090 Living and Dying well, is that when you read more, 0:42:34.930 --> 0:42:38.170 you discover in these letters and the prayers that they 0:42:38.210 --> 0:42:42.770 are just as much about living as they are about dying. 0:42:42.850 --> 0:42:43.370 Mhm. 0:42:43.730 --> 0:42:45.930 You know, we often tend to think, go right to 0:42:45.969 --> 0:42:50.850 the death part or to the dramatic decapitation. Um, but 0:42:51.170 --> 0:42:56.810 more returns our focus regularly, consistently to living well. 0:42:56.850 --> 0:42:59.410 Now I have to ask one other question about the 0:42:59.570 --> 0:43:01.969 the death. I think it's in your introduction that you 0:43:01.969 --> 0:43:07.650 explain after his decapitation, his daughter Meg retrieves his head 0:43:07.650 --> 0:43:10.780 after decapitation. I got to ask about was that normal practice? 0:43:10.820 --> 0:43:13.700 Was that unusual? What was the meaning? Why did you 0:43:13.739 --> 0:43:14.340 do it? 0:43:14.780 --> 0:43:19.060 Well, the heads of traders were not exactly treated gently. 0:43:19.460 --> 0:43:22.339 They were displayed as a warning. And then, you know, 0:43:22.380 --> 0:43:24.819 Saint John Fisher's head was just tossed into the river 0:43:24.860 --> 0:43:31.380 unceremoniously after this. So Meg, um, courageously found a way 0:43:31.380 --> 0:43:35.500 to retrieve the head. And that's why, to this day, 0:43:35.940 --> 0:43:40.020 you may visit Thomas Moore's head. It was eventually arrived 0:43:40.020 --> 0:43:44.660 in Canterbury at Saint Dunstan's and is buried there deep 0:43:44.660 --> 0:43:49.180 in the floor. So it was Meg Roper, his daughter Margaret, 0:43:49.460 --> 0:43:53.580 who retrieved the head and also played a vital role 0:43:53.580 --> 0:43:57.260 in these letters, surviving and in Moore's writings, eventually coming 0:43:57.260 --> 0:44:01.220 to print afterwards as well. I think that the Meg 0:44:01.219 --> 0:44:05.300 Roper story, that the other detail from her life that's 0:44:05.300 --> 0:44:08.779 worth remembering. You may have seen it in pictures or 0:44:08.860 --> 0:44:13.620 in art is that after her father was condemned at trial, 0:44:14.260 --> 0:44:18.060 she pushed her way through the guards and embraced him. 0:44:18.060 --> 0:44:22.020 It's a very famous scene. And then. And then she 0:44:22.020 --> 0:44:26.339 did it again. And with One Day to Live, when 0:44:26.380 --> 0:44:29.780 Moore writes his very last letter to her, he singles 0:44:29.780 --> 0:44:32.219 that out and he tells her, I never liked your 0:44:32.219 --> 0:44:36.020 manner better than when we parted last. You know, he 0:44:36.020 --> 0:44:38.700 ends with this beautiful like he said that, you know, 0:44:38.739 --> 0:44:42.180 that was virtue. And then he thanks her for everything 0:44:42.180 --> 0:44:45.140 she did for him while in the tower. So the 0:44:45.180 --> 0:44:48.620 more Meg relationship is really at the heart of the 0:44:48.620 --> 0:44:49.420 book as well. 0:44:49.820 --> 0:44:52.540 Doctor Stephen Smith with his book The Last Riddle on 0:44:52.540 --> 0:44:55.900 the writings of Saint Thomas Moore from prison at the 0:44:55.900 --> 0:44:59.540 very end, there's this section of prayers, and you say 0:44:59.540 --> 0:45:02.820 that this can be read as another kind of correspondence, 0:45:02.820 --> 0:45:05.660 a correspondence with God. What do we learn about Moore 0:45:05.660 --> 0:45:07.380 from the way he speaks to God? 0:45:07.700 --> 0:45:09.540 Yeah, I do. I do think that, you know, we 0:45:09.540 --> 0:45:17.380 have letters to family and friends. We have letters, um, also, um, 0:45:17.980 --> 0:45:22.540 in his lifetime to, to really just about everyone. But 0:45:22.540 --> 0:45:28.020 these last prayers are the same man's, you know, if 0:45:28.020 --> 0:45:31.100 you will, letters to, to God. And I think what, 0:45:31.100 --> 0:45:34.980 what we see there is the vitality of his relationship 0:45:35.340 --> 0:45:40.739 to God. We see his habit of prayer and his 0:45:40.739 --> 0:45:43.500 habit of approaching God as what he called a tender, 0:45:43.500 --> 0:45:46.500 loving father early in his life. That's another thing he 0:45:46.500 --> 0:45:49.460 never really moved from as a as a man and 0:45:49.460 --> 0:45:52.900 as a writer. Early on, he describes God as a tender, 0:45:52.900 --> 0:45:57.140 loving father. And these prayers at the end, uh, really 0:45:57.140 --> 0:46:02.580 bespeak that, you know, filial sense of, uh, of humanity 0:46:02.900 --> 0:46:06.020 and how we stand before God. One last thing I 0:46:06.020 --> 0:46:09.580 might add is one of the coolest things that I've 0:46:09.580 --> 0:46:15.940 ever experienced in my life involved going to Yale's Beinecke 0:46:15.940 --> 0:46:19.380 Library and holding the Prayer Book of Saint Thomas More 0:46:19.380 --> 0:46:23.500 in my own hands. We had Jerry Wegener and I 0:46:23.540 --> 0:46:26.420 put out the essential works of Thomas Moore with Yale 0:46:26.420 --> 0:46:30.740 in 2020, and I was able to visit Beinecke and 0:46:30.739 --> 0:46:34.020 see a bunch of their great Moore Holdings as part 0:46:34.020 --> 0:46:37.380 of that project. And the Prayer Book is famous because 0:46:37.380 --> 0:46:40.460 it has not only, um, a bunch of prayers in it, 0:46:40.460 --> 0:46:43.899 but it has Moore's handwritten on one of his great 0:46:43.900 --> 0:46:46.660 handwritten prayers in the margins and on top of the page. 0:46:46.700 --> 0:46:49.259 Bottom of page. Top of page. Bottom of page. And 0:46:49.260 --> 0:46:51.859 even though I have stood in the tower cell of 0:46:51.900 --> 0:46:56.620 Saint Thomas Moore in London, I never felt closer to 0:46:56.660 --> 0:46:59.299 him than when I held that prayer book in my hands. 0:46:59.780 --> 0:47:06.830 So the prayers are a beautiful and eloquent and unforgettable. 0:47:07.590 --> 0:47:10.470 Doctor Stephen Smith. We mentioned earlier that there is this 0:47:10.469 --> 0:47:14.989 eight part free video series over at Thomas more studies.org 0:47:15.469 --> 0:47:17.990 that you were involved with creating. What can people find there? 0:47:18.670 --> 0:47:22.150 Well, if you want to find out how much more 0:47:22.190 --> 0:47:27.230 there is to know about Thomas More, the video class 0:47:27.230 --> 0:47:30.750 begins at the beginning of his life and follows his 0:47:30.750 --> 0:47:34.029 footsteps from there all the way to the tower, and 0:47:34.030 --> 0:47:37.510 it focuses on his major writings and the major turning 0:47:37.510 --> 0:47:41.509 points of his life. It's meant to be an introduction 0:47:41.510 --> 0:47:45.150 to this, this great author, this great man, this great saint, 0:47:45.469 --> 0:47:48.989 and to show how much more there really is to 0:47:49.030 --> 0:47:51.989 Thomas more than most of us realize. 0:47:52.390 --> 0:47:57.509 Thomas. More studies.org for the video series. The book is available. 0:47:57.550 --> 0:48:00.910 The Last Riddle Advice on Living and Dying well from 0:48:00.910 --> 0:48:05.070 the imprisoned Saint Thomas More. Doctor Stephen Smith, your author, 0:48:05.070 --> 0:48:07.990 temple family chair of English literature here at Hillsdale College 0:48:07.989 --> 0:48:10.910 and also Dean of Humanities. Doctor Smith, thanks so much 0:48:10.910 --> 0:48:13.950 for joining us here on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. 0:48:14.110 --> 0:48:15.590 Thank you for the invitation, Scott. 0:48:16.070 --> 0:48:19.070 That will wrap up this edition of the Radio Free 0:48:19.110 --> 0:48:22.430 Hillsdale Hour. Our thanks to God, sod and Doctor Stephen 0:48:22.430 --> 0:48:26.230 Smith from Hillsdale College. Remember, you can hear new episodes 0:48:26.230 --> 0:48:29.350 every week on this station. You also can find extended 0:48:29.350 --> 0:48:32.029 versions of some of our interviews, or listen any time 0:48:32.030 --> 0:48:39.029 to the podcast. Find it@podcast.hillsdale.edu or wherever you get your audio. 0:48:39.390 --> 0:48:43.350 Until next week, I'm Scott Bertram, and this has been 0:48:43.670 --> 0:48:46.190 the radio free Hillsdale Hour.