S1: From the historic campus of Hillsdale College in Hillsdale, Michigan,
S1: where the good, the true and the beautiful are taught,
S1: nurtured and honored. This is the radio free Hillsdale Hour,
S1: bringing the activity and education of the college to listeners
S1: across the country.
S2: Socialism can never die. A new generations of imbeciles will
S2: come along that will fall prey to that reflex. That
S2: infantile logic is perfectly justified when I'm five years old
S2: in kindergarten.
S3: This is your host, Scott Bertram. Welcome to the Radio
S3: Free Hillsdale Hour. Part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network.
S3: That was God Sword, author of the new book, Suicidal
S3: Empathy Dying to Be Kind. We'll go in depth with
S3: him on today's program. Also later on, Doctor Stephen Smith
S3: from Hillsdale College. He's written a new book, The Last
S3: Riddle Advice on Living and Dying Well, from the imprisoned
S3: Saint Thomas More. First, very pleased to be joined now
S3: by God. He is an evolutionary behavioral scientist, a professor,
S3: a noted author. His previous book, The Parasitic Mind, is
S3: brand new. One is Suicidal Empathy, dying to be kind,
S3: and it is available now. God, thanks so much for
S3: joining us.
S2: Oh, thank you for having me, Scott. Great to be
S2: with you.
S3: Suicidal empathy. A good virtue gone bad, as the first
S3: chapter says. What's the problem with too much? And you're
S3: you're careful to say it's not empathy itself. You have
S3: a problem with. But what is wrong with too much empathy?
S2: So let me explain it using some evolutionary principles, and
S2: I'll draw first an analogy, and then it'll lead back
S2: to your question. So let's suppose that you and I, Scott,
S2: were to meet at a party and prior to you
S2: coming up to introduce yourself and shake my hand, I
S2: noticed that you had been incessantly sneezing into your hand.
S2: And so I had scanned the environment for potential threats,
S2: which is an evolutionarily adaptive mechanism. Then I shook your
S2: hand politely, and then I quietly and discreetly headed off
S2: to the bathroom to wash my hands because I don't
S2: want to catch your cold. So what started off as
S2: an adaptive process can now become maladaptive in the following way.
S2: If you suffer from germ contamination fears, which is a
S2: form of obsessive compulsive disorder, you end up sticking in
S2: the bathroom for the next eight hours until your skin
S2: is falling off, scalding hot water because you can't extricate
S2: yourself from that action once it begins. So what started
S2: off as an adaptive well-modulated well calibrated mechanism becomes maladaptive
S2: when it misfires. The exact same principle applies in the
S2: distinction between empathy and suicidal empathy. Empathy, as you correctly
S2: pointed in the introduction to your question, is a perfectly
S2: laudable virtue. We are a social species for you and
S2: I to have a meaningful conversation, I need to put
S2: myself in your mind and vice versa. That's called cognitive
S2: empathy or theory of mind. But like Aristotle explained to
S2: us several thousand years ago via his golden mean, too
S2: little of something is not good. If I have no empathy,
S2: I'm a psychopath. Too much of something is not good,
S2: and much of life is finding that sweet spot. So
S2: suicidal empathy is really a three part monster. Number one,
S2: it is hyper active. It hyper fires in the wrong
S2: situations towards the wrong targets of your empathy. Once you
S2: put those three together, you're well on your way to
S2: ending Western civilization.
S3: And you say it is never a good idea to
S3: ignore the warning signs of reality. So what's the what's
S3: the flashing light on the dashboard that's telling you that
S3: far too many of us are suffering from suicidal empathy.
S2: Well, of course, the book is about identifying endless manifestations
S2: of suicidal empathy, both in terms of domestic policies and
S2: foreign policies that speak to your question. But let's take
S2: maybe the the most ominously flashing sign, although we can
S2: then drill down to other examples if you'd like. Immigration
S2: is is a wonderful thing if it is well calibrated.
S2: Gad Saad is an immigrant who was granted status in
S2: Canada because I was escaping the Lebanese Civil War. Elon
S2: Musk is an immigrant who then has gone on. He
S2: came to Canada first and then moved on to the
S2: United States. The fact that Gartside and Elon Musk are immigrants,
S2: as is Ahmed Muhammad Hussain, who is a frequent guest
S2: in the summer camps of al Qaeda in Waziristan. We're
S2: all called immigrants, but the likelihood of us equally contributing
S2: to society, and equally likely in internalizing the ethos of
S2: American exceptionalism, is not true. To be equal, suicidal empathy
S2: says no. You're all immigrants. Therefore you all are equally
S2: likely to share in the beautiful experiment called United States.
S2: If you argue that there is a difference in the
S2: likelihood of people coming in and contributing positively, then you
S2: are a bigot. You're an islamophobe, you're a racist, you're
S2: a and so on. And therefore, let's have open border policies,
S2: because everyone should have the chance to contribute to the
S2: great American experience. So open border policies is the fastest
S2: way by which suicidal empathy is going to lead to
S2: the demise of the West.
S3: God is with us. His new book, Suicidal Empathy Dying
S3: to Be Kind. So many of these chapters are wonderful.
S3: I enjoyed the second chapter on forbidden knowledge and the
S3: idea of calling things what they what they are. You
S3: just talked about immigration. Are they illegal immigrants? Are they
S3: illegal aliens? Are they simply undocumented? We have Brett Kavanaugh
S3: has attempted assassin who for everyone is clearly a man.
S3: And the media insists on calling him a woman because
S3: he has asked them to. Why is it so important
S3: to call things and identify things for what they are?
S2: Right? Look, a foundational feature of being homo sapiens is
S2: we have a prefrontal cortex that allows us to navigate
S2: through daily reality in a way that is meaningful, right? So,
S2: for example, the most defining feature of our respective personhood
S2: is our biological sex. We are a sexually dimorphic, sexually
S2: reproducing species consisting of two phenotypes called male and female.
S2: That reality was known very clearly to the 117 billion
S2: people that had lived on earth. That's an actual estimate
S2: since Homo sapiens became a distinct species. So until 15
S2: minutes ago, when we took progressive biology courses at Oberlin College,
S2: we were able to fully adjudicate the very difficult conundrum
S2: of identifying who's male or female. That's why our ancestors
S2: were able to do. Or what is that thing called mating?
S2: But 15 minutes ago, we realized that we had been
S2: really succumbing to heteronormative reality. In saying that, I know
S2: that if if you look at God's art, he's actually
S2: male based on his clear visual markers. That's why I
S2: need to put a pronoun thing in my bio so
S2: that you know that I'm really male, not female. Now,
S2: once we rape and murder truth for such a ridiculous context,
S2: then all possible truths are up for grabs, and they
S2: be and they become part of forbidden knowledge. Don't recognize
S2: something as truthful if it has any chance of hurting
S2: the feelings of some marginalized group. So what you're doing then, Scott,
S2: forgive me for the long winded answer is you're applying
S2: what's called a consequentialist ethic to deontological principle. Deontology are
S2: absolute statements. So if I say it is never okay
S2: to lie, that would be deontological statement. If I say
S2: it is okay to lie, to spare the feelings of
S2: someone I love, that would be a consequentialist statement for
S2: most things in life. It makes perfect sense for us
S2: to be consequentialist, but for foundational principles such as freedom
S2: of speech, freedom of inquiry, presumption of innocence those have
S2: to be deontological. Once I apply a consequentialist lens to that,
S2: we're off and running.
S3: God is with us. His book, Suicidal Empathy Dying to
S3: Be Kind A Chapter on cultures and you argue not
S3: all cultures are equal. Is it harmful for us not
S3: to acknowledge that perhaps the West is best?
S2: Well, it's very harmful, right? I mean, if you were
S2: an individual going to see a therapist for a pathological
S2: lack of self-esteem, no one would say that's a terrible
S2: thing that that that you actually are going to see
S2: a therapist. It's wonderfully healthy for you to self-flagellate all
S2: day long about how insignificant of a human being you are.
S2: It makes perfect sense for you to go see a
S2: therapist who hopefully will extricate you out of your personal self-loathing.
S2: But if you apply that exact self-loathing to the West,
S2: then you become someone who we all want to invite
S2: to the progressive, cool kids parties in Manhattan. Because we're
S2: defined in our progressive ethos by the fact that we
S2: recognize that all cultures are equal, except the West is
S2: less equal than the other cultures. Now what? What is
S2: the parasitic idea that allows this kind of nonsense to flourish?
S2: I discussed this, as you kindly pointed out in the
S2: intro in my one of my previous books, The Parasitic Mind,
S2: where I talk about cultural relativism as a parasitic idea.
S2: Cultural relativism renders me impotent to make value judgments about
S2: the practices and beliefs of another culture, especially, God forbid,
S2: if that other culture is not a white culture. So
S2: if the other culture wishes to cut off the clitorises
S2: of five year old girls, shut up. Racist. If the
S2: other culture wants to engage in child brides, shut up racist.
S2: If the other culture wants to stone women to death,
S2: shut up. Racist. Well, now you could see how if
S2: I internalize the parasitic idea of cultural relativism that creates
S2: the fertile ground for my open border immigration policy, because
S2: I'm no longer able to say, these folks from these
S2: cultures are more likely to assimilate than those folks from
S2: that culture.
S3: We have two interesting, I want to say, experiments, but
S3: we have two interesting things happening when it comes to
S3: the world of criminal justice and some of our urban areas.
S3: There is an increase in policing, an increase in arrests,
S3: and thus we see a decrease in crime, particularly in
S3: public transit situations in Washington, D.C., where President Trump has
S3: had some activity. On the other hand, we have candidates
S3: and some who are winning primaries here in the United States,
S3: arguing for no prisons and no police, and making every
S3: excuse possible for those who are breaking the law. As
S3: a chapter here where you say reflexively mitigating the actions
S3: of violent criminals by proposing external root causes, it's not
S3: that person's problem, not that person's fault that he or
S3: she is doing what they are doing. I've seen stories
S3: recently where there are people who are attacked, who are
S3: hesitant to press charges. They don't want to have the
S3: person who have who has harmed them to face consequences.
S3: Why is there such this tendency to want to overlook
S3: people who clearly want to do harm, either to you
S3: personally or to society at large?
S2: Because in their view, the suicidal, empathetic folks. There is
S2: a competing hierarchy of more of a moral calculus and
S2: the highest aspiration. As I stroke my luxuriant hair and
S2: looking at my reflection in the mirror of moral preening,
S2: is that I do not ever punish felons of color
S2: because I'm a good person. Now, why is that? What's
S2: the reflex there? This is why I use the new
S2: term that I introduced blank slate felons. Blank slate comes
S2: from another parasitic idea that I discussed in the parasitic
S2: mind called social constructivism. Social constructivism argues that all realities
S2: that you see before you are. Due to socialization. We
S2: are born tabula rasa, empty slate, blank slate. And it
S2: is only the vagaries of our idiosyncratic life trajectories that
S2: make us who we become. We're all born with equal potentiality,
S2: equal likelihood of criminality, and so on and so forth.
S2: So now imagine if you internalize that ethos, then you
S2: argue that someone who is born black in the terribly
S2: white supremacist society known as the United States has already
S2: been existentially punished. So now you're going to tell me
S2: that you're going to put this noble felon of color
S2: in prison. If only he committed 193 previous crimes, don't
S2: you think you should be a good person and give
S2: him a second chance? And by second chance, I mean
S2: 194th Opportunity to make good in his life. So because
S2: I'm a good person who bathes in the infinity pool
S2: of suicidal empathy, I don't think that it serves anybody
S2: any purpose to to put a felon of color in prison.
S3: God. God is with us. We'll continue in a moment
S3: with more on his new book, Suicidal Empathy. We are
S3: past July 4th, but we can still celebrate the Declaration
S3: of Independence and our founding 250 years ago. You might
S3: remember me telling you about revolutionary America. Well, if you
S3: missed it in theaters, now you can find it online.
S3: Search for Revolutionary America on YouTube. It is the first
S3: documentary about the American Revolution that you can trust from
S3: Hillsdale College. 250 years ago, a group of ordinary people
S3: did something very, very extraordinary. With America's anniversary now past us,
S3: we still have time to remember exactly what they did
S3: and why it still matters. Watch Revolutionary America from Hillsdale
S3: College now on YouTube. We continue with God sod. His
S3: new book is Suicidal Empathy Dying to Be Kind. God,
S3: as you explain, I think in the introduction early in
S3: the book, there is narcissism, existential guilt that is driving
S3: suicidal empathy. And people like the ones you describe see
S3: this as penance for their unearned advantage in that way.
S3: Is there any limit to that kind of suicidal empathy?
S2: No. I mean, so and let me let me describe
S2: another term that I use in the book that I
S2: think would be very apropos to what you just asked.
S2: I often will call someone bathing in just completely fatal
S2: suicidal empathy. I call them a wood cricket. Why do
S2: I do that? Because a wood cricket is an insect
S2: that wants nothing to do with water. It avoids water,
S2: but when it is parasitized by a parasite called a
S2: hair worm, the hair worm needs the wood cricket to
S2: jump into water happily and merrily, committing suicide in order
S2: to suit the reproductive interests of the hair worm, which
S2: could only complete its reproductive cycle in water. So it
S2: is literally taking it to the extreme. I'm willing to
S2: give up my life in this case if I'm a
S2: wood cricket because I've been parasitized. Okay, well, let's apply
S2: it to the human context. I and there are endless
S2: examples of that, but I'll give one that's very powerful.
S2: A woman is intercepted on the street by one of
S2: those street interviewers. I think it's in Manchester. She's at
S2: a free, free Palestine, you know, eradicate the Jews in
S2: Palestine and so on. And she's she's clearly a British woman. Uh,
S2: so the interviewer says, oh, you're your free, free Palestine. Okay, well,
S2: do you know what they do to gay people and
S2: queer people in Palestine? And she goes, yes, I know
S2: I'm queer myself. So then he's taken aback and he says, well,
S2: what do you mean? So you're you're supporting the society
S2: that if you were there, they would kill you. She goes, yes,
S2: he goes, but how could that be possible? He's he's
S2: really incredulous. He doesn't understand it. He hadn't read my
S2: book yet. And so and so then he and then
S2: she says, well, I don't care just the. Just because
S2: they're going to kill me doesn't mean that they're not
S2: worthy of my support. They have a right to exist. Well,
S2: that's what a human form would cricket looks like. So
S2: there is no end to my suicidal empathy. I'm willing
S2: to die at that altar once I've been parasitized by
S2: that mindset.
S3: That leads me to a question about the chapter on
S3: meritocracy scientific knowledge. You say that it's tantamount to white
S3: supremacy in the minds of those who are suicidally Empathetic.
S3: And yet, if we look at the areas in which
S3: those things don't matter anymore, you point out aviation people
S3: flying our planes, uh, medicine at UCLA has come under
S3: fire for their admission practices and how they gauge who
S3: is going to be admitted to their doctoral programs. These
S3: are areas in which we all can bear the consequences.
S3: It's not some, some, some thing out in space that
S3: has no bearing on our life. The people who fly
S3: our planes, the people who diagnose our illnesses, the people
S3: who are practicing surgery on us. These are people who
S3: are going through this idea that meritocracy and scientific knowledge
S3: itself are white supremacy. Do people understand the potential consequences
S3: of that and not care? Like that woman you explained?
S2: Uh, well, in academia, they don't care. The average person
S2: walking in the street understands how insane this is, but
S2: they feel as though they don't have the power to
S2: affect change, which is simply not true. If you speak out.
S2: The silent majority. The tests. All this stuff. But they
S2: are completely locked in. A tragedy of the commons. You
S2: know what? Let God speak out. He's a big boy.
S2: He can handle it on our behalf. I simply have
S2: too many costs to bear if I actually speak out
S2: against this nonsense. God can handle it on our behalf.
S2: But the reality is. I mean, it's aviation. It's medicine.
S2: But let's discuss another one. How about firefighting? How about
S2: the deputy chief of the L.A. Fire Department, who is
S2: a obese woman of color, who is also queer, explaining
S2: to the rest of us simpletons that listen when when
S2: you're going somewhere, you know, to save someone from a
S2: burning fire, you want to know that the person who's
S2: saving you looks like you. And then using my now
S2: legendary satire, I said, absolutely right. When you are an obese,
S2: queer woman who weighs as much as a California seal.
S2: You don't want some tall, muscular, heterosexual firefighter saving you
S2: because he can't understand your plight. You want an equally immobile, fat,
S2: queer lesbian to get you out of your predicament, because
S2: then she really understands your plight. That person who uttered
S2: those words, Scott, was not being satirical. She has fully
S2: internalized the cancer known as diversity, inclusion, and equity. So
S2: from her vantage point, what she said makes perfect sense.
S3: God is with us. Suicidal empathy is his new book,
S3: Dying to Be Kind. We have to talk a bit
S3: about socialism and the rise of some of these DSA
S3: candidates here in the United States, recently winning primaries in
S3: New York, but also winning mayoral elections across the country.
S3: You say in the book that Socialism's rise is fueled
S3: by the allure of empathetic fairness. Would you point to
S3: that as the primary factor in what we've seen over
S3: the past few years, and perhaps this year, in particular
S3: with these DSA Democratic Socialists of America candidates winning and
S3: the the allure of socialism among some of our younger,
S3: college educated Americans, but also some of our wealthier white
S3: liberal Americans as well.
S2: Exactly. Right now, it's a one two punch. So it's first,
S2: one of the seven deadly sins is envy. In the
S2: Ten Commandments, we have the allure of covetousness, right? Or look, he,
S2: that bastard neighbor of mine has that, uh, Porsche, and
S2: I don't have it. Right. That's positional economy. I compare
S2: myself to the other. So take envy. Which moral philosophers
S2: and theologians have known as a alluring trapped as part
S2: of the architecture of human beings, and then coupled that,
S2: coupled that with the supposed empathy of creating equality. It's
S2: simply unfair. If I'm a suicidally empathetic person that Elon
S2: Musk has so much money, when someone else who works
S2: very hard doesn't have enough to necessarily put food on
S2: the table, that existential reality is grossly unfair. So why
S2: don't we have an empathetic overlord? Because they are seeking
S2: to maximize existential fairness. Come and take all the money
S2: from those gluttonous, wealthy people and give it to other people. Therefore,
S2: we could all live in this wonderful unicornia where we're
S2: all equally miserable. Right. And so it is absolutely rooted
S2: in that reflex that socialism can never die. That's why
S2: I call it akin to the phoenix that always arises
S2: from the ashes. Because as long as we'll be reproducing
S2: new members of Homo sapiens, a new generations of imbeciles
S2: will come along that will fall prey to that reflex.
S2: But now here's the issue, Scott. That infantile logic is
S2: perfectly justified when I'm five years old in kindergarten, this
S2: is when I learned that sharing is caring. It's not
S2: right for Johnny to have four toys while Billy is
S2: sitting twiddling his thumbs with no toys. So we teach
S2: them to internalize the message of sharing is caring. But
S2: then once I become older and I'm slapped by this
S2: thing called reality, I understand that human beings are a
S2: hierarchical species. Now, why is that important? Because some of
S2: us are taller or shorter, harder working or less harder working.
S2: So we are not communistic in our inherent human nature. E.O. Wilson,
S2: the famous Harvard biologist who studied social ants. Social ants
S2: are communistic. There is a reproductive queen, and then there
S2: is an indistinguishable class of worker ants and soldier ants.
S2: So it is literally the case that social ants are communistic.
S2: When he was asked Professor Wilson, what are your thoughts
S2: on socialism slash communism, he gave arguably the greatest answer
S2: of all time. He said, great idea. Wrong species. So
S2: when you are constantly imposing a socio political economic system
S2: that is incongruent with our phylogenetic history, it shouldn't be
S2: a surprise that it will always fail wherever it's tried.
S2: But apparently Bernie Sanders and occasional cortex AOC will usher
S2: the real socialism once they take power from the rest
S2: of us.
S3: God is with us. Suicidal empathy is the new book.
S3: You say that Donald Trump's second election does not spell
S3: the end of the lunacy that has gripped the West.
S3: Is there any long term change that you see from
S3: the president's second term that can't be undercut by someone
S3: else coming to power, someone else becoming president for from
S3: a different party?
S2: The you want me to lie or give you the honest.
S3: Give us the honest truth.
S2: No. The fact that Donald Trump has come in in
S2: the same way that he signed an executive order ending
S2: the trance lunacy in collegiate sports, the next person comes
S2: in and reverses it through the same mechanism. This is
S2: why I said exactly when you led with your question,
S2: that we can be we can breathe a sigh of
S2: relief momentarily, that it was Donald Trump that won and
S2: not the opponent, because then that would have just, you know,
S2: doubled and tripled down on all the lunacy. But he
S2: only serves as a temporary temporal doorstop for in order
S2: for the problem to go away forever. The parasitic ideas
S2: that eventually lead to suicidal empathy have to be vanquished.
S2: Now that doesn't happen by having one president serve one
S2: term and hopefully getting rid of the woke monster. You really. Now,
S2: let me just kind of give a timestamp on some
S2: of these parasitic ideas, depending on which parasitic idea we're
S2: speaking of. These spawned and flourished on university campuses somewhere
S2: between 50 to 100 years ago. So, for example, cultural
S2: relativism was developed by a cultural anthropologist named Franz Boas.
S2: That's about 100 years ago. The postmodernist, uh, monster as
S2: a parasitic idea was really developed by a bunch of
S2: French philosophers Jacques Derrida, Jacques Lacan, Michel Foucault. This is
S2: about 50 or 60 years ago now. I'd like to
S2: think that it won't take 50 to 100 years to
S2: eradicate that which took that long to flourish. But it's
S2: not going to start and end with Donald Trump, I'm
S2: afraid to say.
S3: God. God is the author of the new book, Suicidal
S3: Empathy Dying to Be Kind. It's available now. And there's
S3: the cover. God, thanks so much for joining us here
S3: on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour.
S2: Great chatting with you. Thank you for having me, Scott.
S3: Up next, Doctor Stephen Smith from Hillsdale College will discuss
S3: his new book on the advice from the imprisoned Saint
S3: Thomas More. I'm Scott Bertram. This is the radio free
S3: Hillsdale Hour. Welcome back to the radio free Hillsdale Hour.
S3: I'm Scott Bertram. Be sure to follow us on Acts
S3: at Hillsdale Radio for updated show and guest information. We're
S3: joined by Doctor Stephen Smith. He is Temple family chair
S3: of English literature at Hillsdale College, also dean of Humanities here.
S3: And his new book is The Last Riddle Advice on
S3: Living and Dying Well from the Imprisoned Saint Thomas More.
S3: Doctor Smith, thanks so much for joining us.
S4: Thank you for having me, Scott. Pleasure to be here.
S3: Interesting, uh, interesting conversation today about these letters from Thomas
S3: Moore that he wrote in your analysis of them. For
S3: our listeners who might not be so familiar, we always
S3: like to begin by cluing them in. So who was
S3: Thomas Moore and why was he even imprisoned?
S4: He was the famous English statesman, father and friend who
S4: lived from 1478 to 1535, and he was an author
S4: who was famous for writing Utopia. He was also speaker
S4: of the House, Lord Chancellor of England. And then in
S4: the events of the 1530s, he was imprisoned for refusing
S4: to take the oath of the act of succession that
S4: had come his way through Henry and Henry's ministers. He
S4: was imprisoned in the Tower of London in 1534, and
S4: then on July 1st, 1535, he was put on trial,
S4: found guilty of malicious treason, and he was executed on
S4: Tower Hill on July 6th, 1535.
S3: Also mentioned that there's a series of videos at Thomas
S3: More studies.org, a video series that Doctor Smith's involved in.
S3: You can check out. We will find out a bit
S3: more about that later. These writings in The Last Riddle,
S3: you describe them as meditations on life's ultimate questions, which
S3: like to become very clear when you're in his position.
S3: Why do you think these final months of his life
S3: still fascinate readers some 500 years later.
S4: Well, the idea of the book is that you can
S4: begin on the morning of Moore's first interrogation and follow
S4: his footsteps, his mind, his heart, through these letters and prayers,
S4: right to the trial and to his death. And I
S4: think that the reason the tower is so fascinating to,
S4: to readers and to history is that it really shows
S4: us a great man at the testing point of his life.
S4: Moore was in his 50s at this point. He had
S4: held many offices. He was famous. But this really is
S4: the testing point of his whole life, of his integrity
S4: and questions of principle and compromise and virtue come up.
S4: But also, it's a family drama, a drama of friendship
S4: and a drama about the rule of law as well.
S4: So the story of the Tower of London and the
S4: plight of this great man for those 15 months is powerful, fascinating, unforgettable.
S3: Before he became a martyr, you mentioned all these things
S3: Moore had done and accomplished lawyer, statesman, diplomat, husband, father.
S3: Do we see a particular side of Thomas Moore emerge
S3: clearly in these writings inside the Last Riddle?
S4: I think that Moore is among the most versatile authors
S4: I have studied personally. So yes, he has many sides,
S4: kind of many minded, many sided, versatile man. And I
S4: think that in the tower letters, um, the lawyer certainly
S4: comes out in regard to the rule of law. Um,
S4: on the more personal side, the fatherhood of Thomas Moore, uh,
S4: comes out and his lifelong commitment to friendship. Finally, one
S4: of the great Yale scholars of Thomas More. Louis Martz
S4: has called the letters in particular some of More's greatest
S4: literary masterpieces. So there's an art and a beauty to
S4: the writing that I think makes them, um, just unforgettable.
S3: Talking with Doctor Stephen Smith, his new book, The Last
S3: Riddle Advice on Living and Dying Well from the imprisoned
S3: Saint Thomas More. When you read these letters inside the
S3: last riddle, you. You do notice that there's warmth and
S3: there's humor. Uh, even for a man in More's position,
S3: how does he remain cheerful while facing his ultimate end?
S4: Well, the title refers to the last riddle, refers to
S4: the riddle he told his daughter he was living in
S4: the Tower of London, which is how a man may
S4: lose his head and have no harm. Mhm. So I,
S4: joking with the production team at Word on Fire. It's
S4: a bit of a guide to decapitation. Personal kind of
S4: Mary guide to How to Lose Your Head. But it's
S4: a good question. You know, I don't think the family
S4: thought the riddle was all that funny. Sure, sure. They
S4: wanted their their father husband. They wanted him back. They
S4: wanted him out of the tower. But he was famous
S4: for his humor. Scott. Um, he's described like a laughing
S4: philosopher early in his life. The Merry More. This is
S4: the man who jested on the way to decapitation, famously.
S4: But I think the important thing to see here is
S4: that the humor is not frivolous. It's not just like,
S4: you know, we're just not reaching that guy. Like, you know,
S4: he's just out of place. Humor. It was a deep
S4: sense of humor at human things, at earthly things, a mirthfulness,
S4: a merriment. And what you find if you study the
S4: especially the tower writings, is that his good humor was
S4: an expression of his hope. Mhm. Uh, his hope in God,
S4: his perspective on eternity and on human life. And yes,
S4: he did love laughing at the ridiculous, as so many
S4: of us do. He had a keen eye for it.
S4: But his last wish at trial, even to those who
S4: who condemned him, was that they would all make merry
S4: together in heaven. So he sees eternity as a place
S4: of laughter and good humor as well.
S3: Is there a particular letter inside the last riddle where
S3: we might encounter, or you think we encounter the real
S3: Thomas More most vividly?
S4: Yeah. I think that, um, there are about three different
S4: answers to that question. Um, the interrogation letters, you really
S4: see Moore's poise and command and peace of soul under
S4: tremendous pressure. That's a very hard to do in real time.
S4: And those interrogation letters show us the high stakes life
S4: and death interrogation of Thomas Moore. But obviously the letters
S4: to his daughter, I think, are where that, uh, fatherhood
S4: comes out and the friendship, uh, very beautifully. His relationship
S4: with his daughter was famous. Um, Erasmus, you know, was,
S4: was very familiar with it, for example. And Moore took
S4: great pains educating his daughters. So the more Meg relationship
S4: is at the heart of the book. And maybe the
S4: last one I would single out is the letter to
S4: Anthony Bonvisi, um, which he wrote a month before his
S4: trial and death. And it is a tribute to friendship
S4: across an entire lifetime, I will confess, is probably my
S4: favorite letter, along with his last letter to Meg, um,
S4: which was written the day before his death. So the
S4: interrogation letters, the letters to Meg, and then the letter
S4: to this man of mystery, Anthony Bonvisi, his lifelong friend,
S4: celebrating the Goodness. The beauty of friendship.
S3: Doctor Stephen Smith with us. He is the Dean of Humanities,
S3: temple family chair of English Lit here at Hillsdale College.
S3: His new book is The Last Riddle on the letters
S3: from Saint Thomas More. The letters include these ones to
S3: his daughter you mentioned earlier it's a family story, too.
S3: They're very famous. In one of these letters, he cautions
S3: his daughter not to let natural affection override conscience. How
S3: does Moore himself balance love for his family with loyalty
S3: to what he believes is right? Is he could have
S3: he could avoid all this by taking the oath, right?
S4: He sure.
S3: Could. He sure could. So how does he how does
S3: he balance that?
S4: Yeah. I mean, that door, he he could have unlocked
S4: it from the inside and walked right out that door. Um,
S4: I think he sees his stand of conscience and his, um,
S4: stand of truth as being the best way he can
S4: love his family, even though it may have maybe a
S4: tough form of love. His wife really wanted him to
S4: come out of the tower to come to his senses.
S4: His daughter wanted him not to get himself executed. So
S4: it's it's a really painful in part story. And yet
S4: at the heart of it is this great kind of
S4: man of with great piece of soul fidelity to conscience
S4: and truth. What I would say is his consistency and
S4: his stand was the best way he could actually love them. Um,
S4: as difficult as it was for some of them to
S4: understand at the time.
S3: One of the recurring themes through the letters is that
S3: suffering can actually become spiritually meaningful. How does Moore try
S3: to teach that lesson to his daughter, Meg?
S4: Well, Moore had a lifelong devotion to the passion of
S4: the of the Christ. And. And so he understood his
S4: own suffering in the light of the cross. And he.
S4: And he tried to share that not only with Meg,
S4: but also with all of his friends outside of the tower.
S4: And he had many. If readers are interested in the
S4: full view of Thomas More on Suffering, the two other
S4: works he wrote in the tower are the Dialogue of
S4: Comfort against tribulation and the Sadness of Christ. And both
S4: of these, among other things, are a profound meditation on
S4: human suffering on the cross and on the goodness of
S4: of it ultimately. So, yes, more, more suffered. But he
S4: put his suffering to good service, to the service of
S4: his family, of his friends, of his God, of his country.
S3: Doctor Stephen Smith, with his book The Last Riddle Advice
S3: on Living and dying well from the imprisoned Saint Thomas More.
S3: These letters in the last riddle reveal any moments of doubt,
S3: fear or uncertainty. Uh, was more the real deal. Was he.
S3: Is he as steadfast as. Perhaps we. We imagine he was.
S4: Well, he had spent his entire life practicing the virtues
S4: that are exhibited in these letters, cultivating them, struggling. An
S4: ordinary human being, sharing human nature with all of us.
S4: But his was a lifelong project. You know, he didn't
S4: just appear in the Tower of London in April 1534,
S4: you know, ready to roll. He he had been living
S4: a particular way deliberately, courageously, day by day for an
S4: entire lifetime. When he came to the Tower of London.
S4: So part of the story of Maud, it's important to
S4: really understand is that is that lifelong, um, preparation and, um,
S4: even over the oath, you know, he didn't just sort
S4: of say, you know, one day I don't, I'm not
S4: going to take the oath. It, it was the fruit
S4: of much study, much deliberation, making himself sure. Uh, and then,
S4: you know, taking that, that stand of conscience and not
S4: budging from it. I mean, his peace of soul and
S4: his consistency are quite striking in these letters.
S3: Throughout the letters, friendship, friendship seems almost as important as
S3: politics or theology. Why was friendship so central to More's
S3: understanding of living a good life?
S4: Well, more, uh, was famous for being a friend, and
S4: he enjoyed the largest number of friendships of. Well, among
S4: many of the great folks I've studied. It's an incredibly
S4: rich life of friendship, right down to that last letter
S4: I mentioned. Second to last letter in the Tower of London. Erasmus,
S4: his moor's lifelong friend, said that if you were looking
S4: for a great example of true friendship, you can find
S4: it to no better purpose than in Thomas More. He
S4: loved friendship, Scott. He wrote poems on friendship. Friendship unites
S4: his writings from from beginning to end of his life.
S4: And so I think that he joins Cicero and Aristotle
S4: and Aquinas and Scripture in seeing the greatness of friendship
S4: and the need that we have for it. Also, ultimately
S4: understanding his relationship with God in terms of friendship as well.
S3: Moore spends a good deal of time thinking and writing
S3: about the thing you might think he'd be thinking and
S3: writing about, which is his death. What does he believe
S3: through these writings? A person should focus on one confronting mortality.
S4: Well, certainly it should be taken seriously, and human life
S4: should be seen with a reliable, true perspective in its entirety.
S4: And human beings, we tend to see things differently. We
S4: tend to put things out and push things out of view.
S4: So we need that, that full, real perspective. But I
S4: think in the, in the here and now, it's that
S4: focus on, um, living well now, uh, for the right reasons,
S4: with good conscience, with peace of soul, with real desire,
S4: with love, with faith. That is the best preparation. There's
S4: a prayer, Scott, that he wrote right toward the end.
S4: And it's within days of his death. And he and
S4: he concludes, the things that I pray for in this prayer, Lord,
S4: give me the grace to labor for. So even at
S4: the very end, with just hours to live, days to live,
S4: he Still had this present business, this present work to
S4: perform with God's grace, with God's help. And he put
S4: himself into that. And I think that was the, um,
S4: that living well, the best preparation. And one, one of
S4: the reasons for the subtitle of the book, Advice on
S4: Living and Dying well, is that when you read more,
S4: you discover in these letters and the prayers that they
S4: are just as much about living as they are about dying.
S3: Mhm.
S4: You know, we often tend to think, go right to
S4: the death part or to the dramatic decapitation. Um, but
S4: more returns our focus regularly, consistently to living well.
S3: Now I have to ask one other question about the
S3: the death. I think it's in your introduction that you
S3: explain after his decapitation, his daughter Meg retrieves his head
S3: after decapitation. I got to ask about was that normal practice?
S3: Was that unusual? What was the meaning? Why did you
S3: do it?
S4: Well, the heads of traders were not exactly treated gently.
S4: They were displayed as a warning. And then, you know,
S4: Saint John Fisher's head was just tossed into the river
S4: unceremoniously after this. So Meg, um, courageously found a way
S4: to retrieve the head. And that's why, to this day,
S4: you may visit Thomas Moore's head. It was eventually arrived
S4: in Canterbury at Saint Dunstan's and is buried there deep
S4: in the floor. So it was Meg Roper, his daughter Margaret,
S4: who retrieved the head and also played a vital role
S4: in these letters, surviving and in Moore's writings, eventually coming
S4: to print afterwards as well. I think that the Meg
S4: Roper story, that the other detail from her life that's
S4: worth remembering. You may have seen it in pictures or
S4: in art is that after her father was condemned at trial,
S4: she pushed her way through the guards and embraced him.
S4: It's a very famous scene. And then. And then she
S4: did it again. And with One Day to Live, when
S4: Moore writes his very last letter to her, he singles
S4: that out and he tells her, I never liked your
S4: manner better than when we parted last. You know, he
S4: ends with this beautiful like he said that, you know,
S4: that was virtue. And then he thanks her for everything
S4: she did for him while in the tower. So the
S4: more Meg relationship is really at the heart of the
S4: book as well.
S3: Doctor Stephen Smith with his book The Last Riddle on
S3: the writings of Saint Thomas Moore from prison at the
S3: very end, there's this section of prayers, and you say
S3: that this can be read as another kind of correspondence,
S3: a correspondence with God. What do we learn about Moore
S3: from the way he speaks to God?
S4: Yeah, I do. I do think that, you know, we
S4: have letters to family and friends. We have letters, um, also, um,
S4: in his lifetime to, to really just about everyone. But
S4: these last prayers are the same man's, you know, if
S4: you will, letters to, to God. And I think what,
S4: what we see there is the vitality of his relationship
S4: to God. We see his habit of prayer and his
S4: habit of approaching God as what he called a tender,
S4: loving father early in his life. That's another thing he
S4: never really moved from as a as a man and
S4: as a writer. Early on, he describes God as a tender,
S4: loving father. And these prayers at the end, uh, really
S4: bespeak that, you know, filial sense of, uh, of humanity
S4: and how we stand before God. One last thing I
S4: might add is one of the coolest things that I've
S4: ever experienced in my life involved going to Yale's Beinecke
S4: Library and holding the Prayer Book of Saint Thomas More
S4: in my own hands. We had Jerry Wegener and I
S4: put out the essential works of Thomas Moore with Yale
S4: in 2020, and I was able to visit Beinecke and
S4: see a bunch of their great Moore Holdings as part
S4: of that project. And the Prayer Book is famous because
S4: it has not only, um, a bunch of prayers in it,
S4: but it has Moore's handwritten on one of his great
S4: handwritten prayers in the margins and on top of the page.
S4: Bottom of page. Top of page. Bottom of page. And
S4: even though I have stood in the tower cell of
S4: Saint Thomas Moore in London, I never felt closer to
S4: him than when I held that prayer book in my hands.
S4: So the prayers are a beautiful and eloquent and unforgettable.
S3: Doctor Stephen Smith. We mentioned earlier that there is this
S3: eight part free video series over at Thomas more studies.org
S3: that you were involved with creating. What can people find there?
S4: Well, if you want to find out how much more
S4: there is to know about Thomas More, the video class
S4: begins at the beginning of his life and follows his
S4: footsteps from there all the way to the tower, and
S4: it focuses on his major writings and the major turning
S4: points of his life. It's meant to be an introduction
S4: to this, this great author, this great man, this great saint,
S4: and to show how much more there really is to
S4: Thomas more than most of us realize.
S3: Thomas. More studies.org for the video series. The book is available.
S3: The Last Riddle Advice on Living and Dying well from
S3: the imprisoned Saint Thomas More. Doctor Stephen Smith, your author,
S3: temple family chair of English literature here at Hillsdale College
S3: and also Dean of Humanities. Doctor Smith, thanks so much
S3: for joining us here on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour.
S4: Thank you for the invitation, Scott.
S3: That will wrap up this edition of the Radio Free
S3: Hillsdale Hour. Our thanks to God, sod and Doctor Stephen
S3: Smith from Hillsdale College. Remember, you can hear new episodes
S3: every week on this station. You also can find extended
S3: versions of some of our interviews, or listen any time
S3: to the podcast. Find it@podcast.hillsdale.edu or wherever you get your audio.
S3: Until next week, I'm Scott Bertram, and this has been
S3: the radio free Hillsdale Hour.