WEBVTT - Churchill’s The Second World War, Part Twenty-Eight 0:00:04.600 --> 0:00:09.440 Every week. Hillsdale College President Larry Arnn joins Hugh Hewitt 0:00:09.440 --> 0:00:14.120 to discuss great books, great men, and great ideas. This 0:00:14.120 --> 0:00:19.320 is Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. 0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:25.680 More episodes@podcast.hillsdale.edu or wherever you find your audio. 0:00:31.080 --> 0:00:34.479 Morning glory needed. Grace America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. That music 0:00:34.479 --> 0:00:38.080 means the Hillsdale dialogue is underway this week. Doctor Larry 0:00:38.080 --> 0:00:40.840 Arnn and I are back into Winston Churchill's World War 0:00:40.840 --> 0:00:44.080 II memoirs. We're in the second volume, Their Finest Hour, 0:00:44.560 --> 0:00:48.480 chapters eight and nine, which are titled Home Defense and 0:00:48.479 --> 0:00:51.519 the French Agony. It's a lot to cover in a 0:00:51.520 --> 0:00:54.280 half an hour of talking, but we want to start 0:00:54.800 --> 0:00:58.560 on what my volume is. Page 143. Doctor Aaron, the 0:00:58.560 --> 0:01:01.660 reader of these pages and future years should realize how 0:01:01.700 --> 0:01:05.819 dense and baffling is the veil of the unknown. Why does. 0:01:05.860 --> 0:01:08.540 Why does Churchill tell us that? He reminds us of 0:01:08.580 --> 0:01:10.980 that a few times in the course of these books. Well, 0:01:10.980 --> 0:01:14.020 he's writing knowing what happened, but he didn't know what 0:01:14.020 --> 0:01:16.260 happened or what happened in 1940. 0:01:17.540 --> 0:01:24.100 Yeah. Well, he. So anybody living his life doesn't know 0:01:24.100 --> 0:01:28.179 what's going to happen tomorrow, you know. And so if 0:01:28.220 --> 0:01:32.059 you read history where the examples are about what life 0:01:32.060 --> 0:01:36.140 is like, you can experience through one life things and 0:01:36.140 --> 0:01:37.900 you get that experience as you go. And you don't 0:01:37.900 --> 0:01:40.020 have much when you start and you only get one 0:01:40.020 --> 0:01:43.740 life's experience, but you can get a lot of experience 0:01:43.740 --> 0:01:46.780 if you read history. But when you read it, you 0:01:46.780 --> 0:01:50.220 have to remember that the people who made it didn't 0:01:50.220 --> 0:01:54.700 know any more about tomorrow than we know today. And 0:01:54.980 --> 0:01:59.540 that means that these shocking and cataclysmic and wonderful things 0:01:59.540 --> 0:02:02.360 that are told in this chapter and in this book. 0:02:02.880 --> 0:02:06.320 They were all accomplished or failed at by people who 0:02:06.360 --> 0:02:09.600 are just as ignorant as we are about tomorrow and 0:02:09.600 --> 0:02:13.320 even the state of things today. Because right now what 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:18.280 we're hearing is in these chapters is that the French 0:02:18.280 --> 0:02:22.480 army is collapsing on a scale and at a pace 0:02:22.639 --> 0:02:26.560 that an army that size had never collapsed in human history. 0:02:26.800 --> 0:02:29.280 And of course, nobody could predict that's what would happen. 0:02:29.280 --> 0:02:32.800 In fact, Churchill definitely predicted it would not happen on 0:02:32.800 --> 0:02:36.080 the radio right after he became prime minister, and then 0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:39.720 a month later, he was proved wrong. And he's coping 0:02:39.720 --> 0:02:43.840 with that every day while he's getting ready to figure 0:02:43.840 --> 0:02:46.160 out how to stop the Germans from coming ashore. 0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:49.079 Well, that's what he that's what I took away from this, 0:02:49.080 --> 0:02:51.919 is that he wanted to communicate to everyone who would 0:02:51.919 --> 0:02:55.120 read this book, and we're reading it 85 years after 0:02:55.120 --> 0:02:59.080 the fact, that the Brits were really worried about an invasion. 0:02:59.120 --> 0:03:02.230 I mean, they really were worried about invasion. Churchill writes, 0:03:02.270 --> 0:03:04.190 or would they go to Ireland? So maybe they'd go 0:03:04.190 --> 0:03:06.830 to Ireland first and then come across the Irish Sea. 0:03:07.230 --> 0:03:11.230 But that's a palpable fear that we've never had in 0:03:11.230 --> 0:03:14.310 the United States, even after nine over 11. We weren't 0:03:14.310 --> 0:03:17.669 worried about an invasion even after Pearl Harbor. We might 0:03:17.710 --> 0:03:20.990 have been worried about coastal California, but we weren't worried 0:03:20.990 --> 0:03:24.070 about an invasion in force. We were worried about attack. 0:03:24.310 --> 0:03:27.430 They were worried about waking up some morning and seeing 0:03:27.430 --> 0:03:30.830 a reverse Normandy. That's quite a burden to bear. 0:03:31.350 --> 0:03:34.310 Yeah, Churchill learned he doesn't. Some of the best things 0:03:34.310 --> 0:03:37.310 are not in this book, in part because he was 0:03:37.310 --> 0:03:39.790 such an important man. And he's writing about recent events. 0:03:40.550 --> 0:03:44.670 But one of them is the day he was informed 0:03:44.990 --> 0:03:47.910 when he went over the first war plans, that they 0:03:47.910 --> 0:03:52.110 couldn't defend the beaches. He sort of implies otherwise in 0:03:52.110 --> 0:03:55.710 this book. But the truth is, if the Germans got 0:03:55.750 --> 0:04:01.090 ashore with a sizable force, they couldn't contest it unless 0:04:01.090 --> 0:04:05.890 they had an equal, equal size force to fight them. 0:04:06.130 --> 0:04:10.089 But that meant that they had to gather the serious troops. And, 0:04:10.130 --> 0:04:13.850 you know, there was one division that was serious troops 0:04:13.850 --> 0:04:16.770 and well equipped. There were other divisions that were well trained, 0:04:16.770 --> 0:04:20.090 but they didn't. They left their equipment behind in France. 0:04:20.089 --> 0:04:24.450 And so they had to they had to gather more 0:04:24.490 --> 0:04:27.090 higher up north. They had to gather away from the 0:04:27.089 --> 0:04:31.210 coast in concentrated areas and try to attack. And that 0:04:31.210 --> 0:04:36.650 meant that probably large swaths of territory in the South 0:04:37.010 --> 0:04:41.810 would be lost. London is in the south. And so 0:04:42.250 --> 0:04:46.250 when he saw that, and he sees at one point them, uh, 0:04:46.650 --> 0:04:50.410 because they didn't have equipment, uh, he, you know, when 0:04:50.410 --> 0:04:53.530 he writes to the Dominion Prime ministers in the second chapter, 0:04:53.529 --> 0:04:56.570 we're reading and all that, he doesn't go into all this, 0:04:56.570 --> 0:05:02.390 but he actually witnessed them. uh, getting 55 gallon gas, 0:05:02.550 --> 0:05:07.870 petrol drums and putting wicks in them and timing how 0:05:07.870 --> 0:05:11.150 to make them explode at the right place. When they 0:05:11.150 --> 0:05:13.270 got down by the beach, that's what they were going 0:05:13.310 --> 0:05:16.350 to try to do. And so it was a very 0:05:16.350 --> 0:05:22.310 bad situation. And if they had come, they would have 0:05:22.310 --> 0:05:23.710 taken a lot of territory. 0:05:23.750 --> 0:05:27.390 If Hitler had only kept up his momentum. He stopped 0:05:27.390 --> 0:05:29.910 once outside of Dunkirk because he didn't know what was 0:05:29.910 --> 0:05:32.750 going on. We talked about that a couple of weeks ago. 0:05:33.150 --> 0:05:34.870 The fact that Hitler is in the fog of war 0:05:34.910 --> 0:05:37.310 as well, and he doesn't want to get overextended, but 0:05:37.310 --> 0:05:41.630 then he pauses Operation Sea Lion and he doesn't. Come on. 0:05:41.990 --> 0:05:45.230 Churchill is a is a realist. I long for more 0:05:45.230 --> 0:05:48.510 regular troops with which to rebuild and expand the army. 0:05:48.550 --> 0:05:52.989 Wars are not won by heroic militias. And he's also 0:05:52.990 --> 0:05:57.190 doing very practical things. He asked the Admiralty, the Navy 0:05:57.190 --> 0:06:00.330 for the benefit of the Steelers fan to transfer 50 0:06:00.370 --> 0:06:04.290 trained and half trained pilots to Fighter Command because he 0:06:04.290 --> 0:06:07.690 realizes it's all going to be in the sky. Um, 0:06:07.730 --> 0:06:10.330 it's all going to depend upon who owns the sky. 0:06:10.570 --> 0:06:12.810 So he has a good strategic grasp of the situation. 0:06:12.810 --> 0:06:15.969 He just doesn't have the instruments of war in his hand. 0:06:16.410 --> 0:06:21.089 Yeah. Well, so I refer everybody to Victor Hanson's very 0:06:21.089 --> 0:06:24.330 great book, The Second World Wars. It's a wonderful book, 0:06:24.370 --> 0:06:26.410 and I learned from it. And I've been studying that 0:06:26.450 --> 0:06:30.529 war for 40 years now or more. Uh, he goes 0:06:30.529 --> 0:06:36.370 into the British war effort and he, he describes how 0:06:36.410 --> 0:06:41.489 much it got out of itself, especially adjusting for its size. 0:06:41.490 --> 0:06:44.969 In the end, British war production was greater than German war. 0:06:45.010 --> 0:06:49.450 Production in Germany is a significantly larger country, and the 0:06:49.450 --> 0:06:54.849 reason for it is in this chapter, this, uh, avalanche 0:06:55.089 --> 0:06:58.760 of memos coming out, you know, they actually did invent 0:06:58.760 --> 0:07:02.360 a stamp here in 1940 that he would put on 0:07:02.400 --> 0:07:07.240 the memo saying, action this day, let's, you know, and, 0:07:07.279 --> 0:07:09.640 and one of the memos we read in here is 0:07:09.640 --> 0:07:12.400 that the Indian troops were going to get we got 0:07:12.400 --> 0:07:14.720 a whole lot of troops in India. Bring them back. 0:07:14.760 --> 0:07:18.040 They can fight here. We'll send some lesser troops to India. 0:07:18.320 --> 0:07:21.440 And then he says, two weeks later, we were told 0:07:21.440 --> 0:07:23.400 we could get some of them back in two weeks. 0:07:23.400 --> 0:07:25.640 And I learned that some of them have only just 0:07:25.640 --> 0:07:28.600 embarked for the journey. What's going on? We gotta hurry, 0:07:28.920 --> 0:07:32.520 you know. Of course. It's just think how? Think of 0:07:32.520 --> 0:07:37.920 an idea. And he also, by the way, arranges right 0:07:37.920 --> 0:07:40.119 after he becomes prime minister. And we're in the second 0:07:40.120 --> 0:07:43.280 month of his premiership right now. And Germany is attacking 0:07:43.280 --> 0:07:46.840 and France is falling and all the world's falling apart. Right. 0:07:46.880 --> 0:07:50.480 He says orders are given in writing. And he just 0:07:50.480 --> 0:07:55.560 dictated streams of these things. And, you know, Don Rumsfeld, 0:07:55.560 --> 0:07:58.500 whom I knew well and admired very much. He was 0:07:58.500 --> 0:08:02.660 famous for his snowflakes. Yep. As I say, these little 0:08:02.660 --> 0:08:05.140 memos would fall on people from all over. He was 0:08:05.140 --> 0:08:09.140 very good administrator, and he's a very good man. I 0:08:09.140 --> 0:08:12.380 miss him, but he, uh. And I talked to him 0:08:12.380 --> 0:08:15.660 about it one time because I had heard complaints from 0:08:15.660 --> 0:08:17.580 people working for him, and I brought it up to him. 0:08:17.580 --> 0:08:19.820 He said, yeah, he says, it annoys people. And I said, 0:08:20.140 --> 0:08:24.540 did you know that Winston Churchill did just the same? And, 0:08:24.540 --> 0:08:27.420 you know, you could never win a point on Don Rumsfeld. 0:08:27.420 --> 0:08:30.020 He was a very competitive human being. He would say, 0:08:30.060 --> 0:08:31.500 of course I knew that. 0:08:31.980 --> 0:08:36.660 Well, since we're talking rummy, he was a dangerous interview, 0:08:36.940 --> 0:08:40.780 meaning that if you were unprepared or said something stupid, 0:08:41.059 --> 0:08:43.500 he would be the first to let the audience know 0:08:43.500 --> 0:08:46.940 that you had done that. So more than once I 0:08:46.940 --> 0:08:50.579 got scorched by rummy, and that was endearing. I actually 0:08:50.580 --> 0:08:53.300 thought he was going to run for president at one point, 0:08:53.580 --> 0:08:59.679 I believe in 1980 against Reagan. Maybe it was 88 0:08:59.720 --> 0:09:03.880 against H.W., and then he chose the better part of 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:05.720 valour and decided not to. 0:09:06.200 --> 0:09:09.160 So I know some gossip that I'll relate. Why not? 0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:12.720 It's the honor of Rumsfeld. Rumsfeld was waiting by the 0:09:12.720 --> 0:09:18.040 phone in 1980, and George. George H.W. Bush was waiting 0:09:18.040 --> 0:09:20.400 by the phone. Reagan was going to call one of 0:09:20.400 --> 0:09:24.040 them to be vice president, and things happened. I won't 0:09:24.040 --> 0:09:29.720 say what those were. And Reagan called H.W. and, uh, 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:34.240 then he called Rumsfeld. Rumsfeld told me this, and he said, uh, 0:09:34.240 --> 0:09:40.320 I've called George Bush. And Rumsfeld said, thank God for it, Mr. President. Uh, 0:09:40.320 --> 0:09:43.079 there was another deal offered to him. I won't say 0:09:43.080 --> 0:09:46.920 what it was. And, uh, and Rumsfeld replied, I was 0:09:46.920 --> 0:09:50.040 afraid you were going to take that deal. And, uh, 0:09:50.080 --> 0:09:54.360 Reagan replied, never. So the point is, he was a 0:09:54.360 --> 0:09:58.100 very important man, and he was not far from the presidency, 0:09:58.100 --> 0:09:59.340 at least, at least. 0:09:59.500 --> 0:10:03.220 Pause right there, doctor. At least for 20 years, not 0:10:03.220 --> 0:10:07.180 far from the presidency. Much more coming ahead. Don't go anywhere, America. 0:10:07.220 --> 0:10:09.819 I'm talking with Doctor Larry Arnn, president of Hillsdale College, 0:10:09.820 --> 0:10:15.540 all things hillsdale@hillsdale.edu. All the prior Hillsdale dialogues at Q 0:10:15.580 --> 0:10:21.060 four hillsdale.com. New courses, by the way, over@hillsdale.edu. All for 0:10:21.059 --> 0:10:24.540 free as is in Primus, the monthly speech digest. Just 0:10:24.540 --> 0:10:27.420 go to hillsdale.edu and sign up and stay tuned. I'll 0:10:27.420 --> 0:10:30.579 be right back with doctor R. Welcome back America. Hugh 0:10:30.620 --> 0:10:32.700 Hewitt with Doctor Larry Arnn. When we broke off, we 0:10:32.740 --> 0:10:36.620 were talking about the 1980 Republican Convention and a deal 0:10:36.620 --> 0:10:40.179 that was under discussion there a couple times. 0:10:40.179 --> 0:10:40.420 In his. 0:10:40.420 --> 0:10:42.460 Life for the benefit of the audience. We should tell 0:10:42.460 --> 0:10:44.540 them what the deal was, because that's a matter of 0:10:44.540 --> 0:10:49.700 historical record. Jerry Ford's people had approached President Reagan, then 0:10:49.700 --> 0:10:52.620 candidates Reagan, then Governor Reagan's people with the proposition of 0:10:52.620 --> 0:10:58.170 being a co-president. And Reagan dallied with that and then 0:10:58.170 --> 0:11:00.890 firmly rejected it. And I think, is that what the 0:11:00.890 --> 0:11:03.930 Secretary Rumsfeld was referring to? Thank God you didn't accept that. 0:11:04.250 --> 0:11:07.730 Yeah. And see, Reagan, when the convention opened in 1980, 0:11:08.090 --> 0:11:13.090 Reagan was 17 points behind Jimmy Carter. You eventually beat 0:11:13.090 --> 0:11:17.330 him by 8 or 9, I think, anyway. The argument 0:11:17.330 --> 0:11:20.930 was you can't win. People don't trust you. But if 0:11:20.929 --> 0:11:24.850 I join you and Henry Kissinger joins you, then they 0:11:24.850 --> 0:11:27.650 will have confidence and we can win the election. That 0:11:27.650 --> 0:11:31.410 was the arrangement. And there's nothing discreditable about it. But 0:11:31.450 --> 0:11:36.370 it's much to Reagan's credit that he didn't take it and, uh, change, 0:11:36.410 --> 0:11:38.010 you know, it's a good thing, but. 0:11:38.050 --> 0:11:41.610 Well, they proposed an extra constitutional solution, not constitutional. It's 0:11:41.610 --> 0:11:45.050 a unitary executive. You can't have a co-president. Let me 0:11:45.050 --> 0:11:49.730 go back to a line in home defense doctrine. This 0:11:49.730 --> 0:11:52.650 was a time when all Britain worked and strove to 0:11:52.690 --> 0:11:55.770 the utmost limit, and was united as never before. He 0:11:55.770 --> 0:11:58.470 You referred to that the one desire of all the 0:11:58.470 --> 0:12:01.910 males and many women was to have a weapon. The 0:12:01.910 --> 0:12:05.430 sense of fear seemed entirely lacking in the people, and 0:12:05.429 --> 0:12:09.429 their representatives in Parliament were not unworthy of their mood. 0:12:09.630 --> 0:12:11.710 You know, if the people of Iran had had a weapon, 0:12:11.710 --> 0:12:14.390 this would not be the despotism that it is. 0:12:15.030 --> 0:12:20.829 Yeah. That's right. It. And remember, the habits of self-government 0:12:21.190 --> 0:12:24.630 are good for a person, right? That's. We talked about 0:12:24.630 --> 0:12:29.670 socialism last week. If you don't take care of yourself, right. 0:12:29.710 --> 0:12:33.309 What kind of person will you be? And then then 0:12:33.309 --> 0:12:36.469 if you get a citizen body that, uh, you know, 0:12:36.510 --> 0:12:39.750 it's the two 50th here directly and we did a 0:12:39.750 --> 0:12:43.830 movie about it. Right. And, uh, last last week, you know, 0:12:43.830 --> 0:12:46.670 this week you quoted Churchill. Wars are not won by 0:12:46.670 --> 0:12:52.270 heroic militias. Well, the early battles of the American Revolution were, 0:12:52.270 --> 0:12:56.650 in fact, won that way. And later there was an 0:12:56.650 --> 0:13:01.010 army and a French army too involved. And that was necessary. 0:13:01.450 --> 0:13:05.609 But that army, our army was built on a heroic militia. 0:13:06.130 --> 0:13:09.130 And on heroic men. Just last week, our mutual friend, 0:13:09.130 --> 0:13:12.250 Eric Metaxas has a new book out on the American Revolution, 0:13:12.530 --> 0:13:15.809 and we spent the large part of our time talking 0:13:15.809 --> 0:13:18.370 about one man, Henry Knox, about whom not many people 0:13:18.370 --> 0:13:23.530 know the Large Man, 300 pounder bookseller. And Washington says 0:13:23.530 --> 0:13:28.170 to him, I need some cannon from Saratoga. And he leaves. 0:13:28.170 --> 0:13:32.370 Boston goes all the way too far. And heck, back 0:13:32.850 --> 0:13:36.370 to upstate New York in the middle of winter, grabs 0:13:36.370 --> 0:13:40.610 £15,000 of cannon and gets them on sleds and brings 0:13:40.610 --> 0:13:43.809 them back and forces the Brits out of Boston, which 0:13:43.809 --> 0:13:48.330 remains forever thereafter, free. That's one guy, and that's a militiaman. 0:13:48.370 --> 0:13:50.450 He's not a soldier. He's a bookseller. 0:13:50.770 --> 0:13:54.210 Yeah, that's right, that's right. I mean, you know, Paul Revere, 0:13:54.250 --> 0:13:57.310 who was a really radical guy. He was a silversmith, 0:13:57.309 --> 0:14:00.990 I think. And, uh, he, you know, but, you know, 0:14:01.270 --> 0:14:03.670 they lived in the country even if they lived in 0:14:03.670 --> 0:14:06.429 the city and they knew about horses and they knew 0:14:06.429 --> 0:14:09.990 about work, and they knew about axes and hatchets and 0:14:10.309 --> 0:14:14.910 farm equipment, and they knew about guns and, uh, you know, 0:14:15.150 --> 0:14:17.830 come to find, you know, the British, uh, there's a, 0:14:17.830 --> 0:14:21.110 in this, we made this film Revolutionary America, which you'll 0:14:21.110 --> 0:14:24.590 soon be able to watch on streaming. And there's a 0:14:24.590 --> 0:14:27.790 wonderful quote from the General Burgoyne, I think was the 0:14:27.790 --> 0:14:32.670 first British general. And he said, they're fighting with great spirit, 0:14:32.670 --> 0:14:35.230 and he insults us more than in the in the 0:14:35.230 --> 0:14:38.110 Seven Years War, the French and Indian War. And we're 0:14:38.110 --> 0:14:41.150 not used to this kind of warfare. Well, that's the 0:14:41.150 --> 0:14:44.030 only that's the only kind the colonists knew how to wage. 0:14:44.550 --> 0:14:47.110 Because they had been waging it on the frontier forever. 0:14:47.150 --> 0:14:49.150 But before we move on to the French agony, I 0:14:49.150 --> 0:14:51.710 do want to bring the fact that Churchill was so 0:14:51.710 --> 0:14:55.300 much in the weeds, I imagine, um, that you are 0:14:55.300 --> 0:14:59.060 in the weeds at Hillsdale College and people don't know 0:14:59.060 --> 0:15:01.500 when to expect something. He writes a memo to his 0:15:01.500 --> 0:15:04.780 Minister of information who's not like in the war cabinet. 0:15:04.820 --> 0:15:08.180 It's just some fellows, the Ministry of Information, asking him 0:15:08.180 --> 0:15:11.180 to ask the public, quote, to handle air raids in 0:15:11.180 --> 0:15:15.580 a cool way and on a diminishing tone of public interest. 0:15:15.780 --> 0:15:19.820 In other words, to make the abnormal normal and not 0:15:19.820 --> 0:15:22.900 to lose your head. Even if the neighbor's house gets 0:15:22.900 --> 0:15:26.500 blown to bits, that's that's in the weeds. 0:15:27.140 --> 0:15:29.980 Well, if I'm not mistaken, the Minister of Information at 0:15:30.020 --> 0:15:34.900 that moment was Alfred Duff Cooper. Oh, great. A great 0:15:34.900 --> 0:15:38.180 Churchill friend, and he certainly was later that I think 0:15:38.180 --> 0:15:42.460 he was on this day. And, uh, he was a 0:15:42.500 --> 0:15:47.900 firm man. His what son? John Julius Norwich, one of 0:15:47.900 --> 0:15:52.900 the great historians of Venice, is I think he's still alive. 0:15:52.940 --> 0:15:57.120 He's older now, Anyway, he was like his daddy. They 0:15:57.120 --> 0:16:00.200 were both great characters. They were really great people to 0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:02.560 have a good dinner with. They could talk into the 0:16:02.560 --> 0:16:06.720 night and they were not averse to drink. And Alfred 0:16:06.720 --> 0:16:10.280 Duff Cooper was quite a guy. And, uh, good to 0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:11.880 be able to say a word about him here. 0:16:12.280 --> 0:16:14.640 I want to also, before we move to French, you 0:16:14.640 --> 0:16:17.960 mentioned this, that Churchill summoned the troops from India and 0:16:17.960 --> 0:16:20.360 was upset that the troops from India had not arrived. 0:16:20.640 --> 0:16:22.840 I think it is little appreciated. I put in my 0:16:22.840 --> 0:16:28.280 notes that the British Empire, as in Empire one, saved 0:16:28.280 --> 0:16:33.760 the the West saved democracy. You know, colonialism is much 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:37.440 abused now and it will never come back, I don't think. 0:16:37.800 --> 0:16:40.400 But it was the British Empire that saved the world 0:16:40.400 --> 0:16:43.800 from Hitler, and only the Empire could have done it. 0:16:44.120 --> 0:16:47.320 Yeah, well, I looked it up this morning to refresh 0:16:47.320 --> 0:16:52.400 my memory. It was only in July of 1944. That's 0:16:53.080 --> 0:16:57.260 six weeks after D-Day that the Americans had more troops 0:16:57.260 --> 0:17:01.820 fighting on the continent than the British. And for from what? 0:17:01.860 --> 0:17:05.740 From June 1940, the month we're in right now until 0:17:06.260 --> 0:17:10.340 the summer of 1941, the British were alone and we 0:17:10.340 --> 0:17:13.780 didn't join them. And that's when Hitler attacked the Soviet Union. 0:17:13.820 --> 0:17:17.060 It's his former ally. And we didn't join the war 0:17:17.060 --> 0:17:20.659 until December 1942. So that's two years, two and a 0:17:20.700 --> 0:17:25.220 half years alone, more or less. And, uh, the fact 0:17:25.220 --> 0:17:30.540 that they stood up to that is just amazing. And, uh, uh, 0:17:30.540 --> 0:17:33.980 the fact that the Empire and remember, there was no 0:17:34.020 --> 0:17:38.859 imperial soldier in the dominions or in India, the remaining 0:17:38.859 --> 0:17:41.980 part of the empire that was not self-governing. There was 0:17:41.980 --> 0:17:46.060 no power in London to conscript any soldier in any 0:17:46.060 --> 0:17:49.180 of those countries. They sent them. And see India had 0:17:49.180 --> 0:17:52.020 an all volunteer army in both World Wars, and they 0:17:52.020 --> 0:17:55.719 had A million, 2 million in the first war, and 0:17:55.720 --> 0:17:59.080 a million something in the Second War fighting. And in 0:17:59.080 --> 0:18:01.960 the first war, very large part of them fought in 0:18:01.960 --> 0:18:05.560 Europe and they were all volunteers. And so that meant 0:18:05.560 --> 0:18:09.240 that Churchill was right about something, and that is that 0:18:09.240 --> 0:18:12.960 the empire is a association of sentiment. 0:18:13.200 --> 0:18:15.760 He is right about a lot of things, doctor. We'll 0:18:15.760 --> 0:18:18.120 come back and talk about more of the things. He 0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:21.919 was right. An association of sentiment. Love that. Don't go anywhere, America, 0:18:21.920 --> 0:18:25.800 except over to hillsdale.edu, where you'll find all things, including 0:18:25.840 --> 0:18:31.960 applications for you rising seniors to Hillsdale. Stay tuned. Welcome 0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:34.600 back America. Hugh Hewitt with Doctor Larry Arnn, president of 0:18:34.600 --> 0:18:39.760 Hillsdale College, all things hillsdale@hillsdale.edu. We are talking about the Empire. 0:18:39.840 --> 0:18:42.040 When we went to break Doctor Arnn, the empire that 0:18:42.040 --> 0:18:45.200 Winston Churchill presided over as Prime Minister during the war. 0:18:46.000 --> 0:18:50.960 When Indians worth commenting here. When Indian independence came, the 0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:55.510 Indian soldiers were all offered service in the British Army 0:18:55.550 --> 0:19:00.430 if they wanted it. And the British Army was generally 0:19:00.430 --> 0:19:05.150 surprised that almost all of them didn't. In fact, a 0:19:05.150 --> 0:19:09.190 minority did, which indicates something. I don't know a lot 0:19:09.190 --> 0:19:12.350 of places where I think Winston Churchill was wrong, but 0:19:12.350 --> 0:19:15.550 I think he was probably wrong in thinking that India 0:19:15.550 --> 0:19:19.830 had not yet become a country, because it's had a 0:19:19.830 --> 0:19:23.550 very difficult history and it's a very promising nation today. 0:19:24.070 --> 0:19:29.990 But it showed even from 1945, 1948, when independence came, 0:19:30.670 --> 0:19:33.710 it showed that it was becoming a nation. It had 0:19:33.710 --> 0:19:36.189 been a conglomeration of different. 0:19:36.230 --> 0:19:38.310 He might have been right on the timing, though. Doctor, 0:19:38.310 --> 0:19:41.510 I just finished rereading Freedom at Midnight. It was a 0:19:41.510 --> 0:19:44.630 pretty awful birth. It was a massacre. Yeah. 0:19:45.030 --> 0:19:49.830 And well, he he predicted a million dead. And there 0:19:49.830 --> 0:19:52.770 were about that that were killed in the Civil War 0:19:52.850 --> 0:19:57.530 that ensued. And of course, Pakistan split off. And that's 0:19:57.530 --> 0:20:01.570 chiefly Muslim nation. And India is chiefly a Hindu nation, 0:20:01.570 --> 0:20:05.250 and they're both mixed up. Some too. And they, you know, 0:20:05.290 --> 0:20:07.530 don't get along very well today. And they both have 0:20:07.530 --> 0:20:12.330 nuclear weapons. So he was right about some important things, too. And, 0:20:12.369 --> 0:20:14.610 you know, the main thing to comment about that was, 0:20:15.210 --> 0:20:18.210 in my opinion, Churchill. Well, all you gotta do is 0:20:18.210 --> 0:20:21.210 read it. I've written about it. Churchill was well meaning 0:20:21.330 --> 0:20:23.689 to the Indians, and he never denied their right to 0:20:23.730 --> 0:20:26.810 govern themselves. He just thought they weren't ready to do 0:20:26.810 --> 0:20:27.490 that yet. 0:20:28.210 --> 0:20:30.969 So let's move to the French, who ought to have 0:20:30.970 --> 0:20:33.770 been better prepared to govern themselves than they were. I'm 0:20:33.810 --> 0:20:38.449 not sure what to think about the average Frenchman in 1940. 0:20:38.890 --> 0:20:42.690 De Gaulle is all honor to de Gaulle. He's a 0:20:42.690 --> 0:20:45.850 strong man from beginning to end. He never wavers. He 0:20:45.850 --> 0:20:49.210 gets out of the country in time. Churchill is driven 0:20:49.210 --> 0:20:51.330 crazy by him throughout the course of the war, but 0:20:51.330 --> 0:20:54.109 he had a great courage. I don't know what to 0:20:54.109 --> 0:20:57.070 think about Reynaud or or. I know what to think 0:20:57.070 --> 0:21:00.669 about Patton. What do you make, generally of the collapse 0:21:00.670 --> 0:21:03.470 of so many Frenchmen at the top? Because they could 0:21:03.510 --> 0:21:06.350 have withdrawn to Burgundy. They could have gone to the 0:21:06.350 --> 0:21:09.590 south of the country, and they. Darlan could have kept 0:21:09.590 --> 0:21:12.430 on the fight, and he chose not to either. Well. 0:21:12.990 --> 0:21:16.229 France is a great nation. The best. I can explain it, 0:21:16.270 --> 0:21:18.630 of course, because there was a lot of heroism. By 0:21:18.630 --> 0:21:23.230 the way, Churchill had several friends who comported themselves beautifully 0:21:23.230 --> 0:21:27.670 in this collapse. But I think that maybe they were 0:21:27.670 --> 0:21:31.070 afflicted by the same thing that afflicted British politics in 0:21:31.070 --> 0:21:35.030 the 1930s. And that was the cost of the First 0:21:35.030 --> 0:21:39.070 World War was so grievous. And, you know, we on 0:21:39.150 --> 0:21:41.750 a on a global scale, we met in the First 0:21:41.750 --> 0:21:47.750 World War lessons that were apparent in 1864 in our country, 0:21:47.750 --> 0:21:51.190 in the last battles of the Civil War. But of course, 0:21:51.570 --> 0:21:56.050 Much expanded and much intensified, and the body count was 0:21:56.050 --> 0:22:01.890 enormous and the fighting conditions were terrible. And then now here, 0:22:01.930 --> 0:22:04.530 what are we going to do that again? And they 0:22:04.530 --> 0:22:07.010 just weren't ready to do it. And their army was 0:22:07.010 --> 0:22:08.410 not ready to do it. 0:22:08.450 --> 0:22:12.810 And you can sort of understand that. Uh, stay on standby, doctor. 0:22:12.970 --> 0:22:15.889 We'll be right back and continue on with the French 0:22:15.890 --> 0:22:21.010 collapse and all that followed. Welcome back America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. 0:22:21.050 --> 0:22:25.850 Hillsdale dialogue time all things hillsdale@hillsdale.edu. All of our dialogues 0:22:25.850 --> 0:22:29.530 with Doctor Larry Arnn, my guest collected at hue for hillsdale.com. 0:22:29.530 --> 0:22:31.930 Doctor Arnn, when we went to break, we were talking 0:22:31.930 --> 0:22:35.889 about the rapid French collapse in 1940. And why did 0:22:35.890 --> 0:22:36.570 it happen? 0:22:36.810 --> 0:22:42.730 They built this, uh, they staked their hopes on a 0:22:42.730 --> 0:22:46.449 wonderful defensive line, maybe the strongest ever built, called the 0:22:46.450 --> 0:22:50.570 Maginot Line. And Churchill tells the story of that in 0:22:50.609 --> 0:22:54.680 these chapters. What the Germans did was go around it 0:22:54.920 --> 0:23:01.000 using the tanks. Right? And then they didn't. They penetrated 0:23:01.000 --> 0:23:04.000 it in a place or two very late. But most 0:23:04.000 --> 0:23:07.040 of it was intact when the armistice came. And one 0:23:07.040 --> 0:23:10.120 of the commanding generals said, I don't want to lay 0:23:10.119 --> 0:23:14.240 down my arms. All of our defenses are still intact here. Right. 0:23:14.600 --> 0:23:18.679 So they had staked so much on that. And, I 0:23:18.680 --> 0:23:21.680 don't know, maybe they put their best troops in there, too. 0:23:22.160 --> 0:23:25.480 But the ones that were not in there were just 0:23:25.480 --> 0:23:29.440 basically not ready to go. And they, you know, and 0:23:29.480 --> 0:23:33.639 you got to hand it to the Germans, even to Hitler, 0:23:34.720 --> 0:23:38.800 their plan until about two years, I think it was 0:23:38.800 --> 0:23:42.320 before the war, was to repeat what they had done 0:23:42.560 --> 0:23:45.760 in the First World War, to go around through Belgium, 0:23:45.960 --> 0:23:49.280 swing to the right, you know, take the the army 0:23:49.280 --> 0:23:55.500 from the north West, and they built this Maginot Line 0:23:55.660 --> 0:24:00.780 to force that. And the Maginot Line runs from basically 0:24:00.780 --> 0:24:03.459 the beginning of the Ardennes forest, which is thought to 0:24:03.460 --> 0:24:09.300 be impassable. North and west, up toward Belgium. And then 0:24:09.300 --> 0:24:11.340 the idea was the British and the French armies would 0:24:11.340 --> 0:24:15.540 gather at the Belgian border and maybe go over into Belgium. 0:24:15.540 --> 0:24:20.100 Belgium was an ally and fight the fight the German 0:24:20.100 --> 0:24:24.180 army there. That was the plan. Well, what Hitler did 0:24:24.180 --> 0:24:28.900 was he got Rommel and Guderian, his best generals, probably. 0:24:28.900 --> 0:24:31.739 Rommel certainly was one of the best to come up 0:24:31.740 --> 0:24:35.020 with another plan. And they thought they could get tanks 0:24:35.340 --> 0:24:41.500 through the hilly, even mountainous passageways and through the Ardennes 0:24:41.500 --> 0:24:45.980 forest and attack them from behind. And that's what they did. 0:24:46.380 --> 0:24:49.220 And they got between them in Paris, and they cut 0:24:49.220 --> 0:24:54.879 the communications of the Allied armies and everything was a mess. 0:24:54.880 --> 0:25:00.920 It was chaos, right. And communications broke down. And the British, 0:25:01.560 --> 0:25:05.240 it's very it's a wonderful story how all this happened. And, 0:25:05.280 --> 0:25:08.119 you know, my father in law was in this retreat 0:25:08.119 --> 0:25:11.440 and left Dunkirk Beach the last day. And he could 0:25:11.440 --> 0:25:13.520 recount to you about it, you know, first of all, 0:25:13.920 --> 0:25:18.480 everything's a mess. The maps are completely disorganized, and there 0:25:18.480 --> 0:25:23.200 never really was an order given. You guys fight your 0:25:23.200 --> 0:25:26.960 way to the beach and come home. And there never 0:25:26.960 --> 0:25:31.879 was an order given you guys the French. You guys 0:25:32.480 --> 0:25:36.159 break with the British and retreat to the south toward 0:25:36.160 --> 0:25:39.359 Paris and maybe south of it. The British just sort 0:25:39.400 --> 0:25:43.040 of started moving that way. They just it was chaos 0:25:43.359 --> 0:25:47.400 and nothing was working. The communications were terrible and they 0:25:47.400 --> 0:25:50.620 started fighting their way home. And they did fight in 0:25:50.619 --> 0:25:54.540 good order and kept themselves together marvelously. I mean, it's 0:25:54.540 --> 0:25:59.820 remarkable how they performed and are in retreat. And, you know, 0:25:59.859 --> 0:26:02.020 the famous soldiers of Calais that we talked about in 0:26:02.020 --> 0:26:06.900 the previous week. They rescued their army and considerable part 0:26:06.900 --> 0:26:11.380 of the French army. But the French, they just got 0:26:11.380 --> 0:26:14.340 their way back toward Paris, and they basically just fell apart. 0:26:14.820 --> 0:26:18.500 General Alan Brooke, who later becomes the George Marshall for 0:26:18.500 --> 0:26:22.300 Great Britain, the chief of the General Staff, sends a 0:26:22.300 --> 0:26:24.980 note to the Secretary of War, Anthony Eden. At that point, 0:26:25.220 --> 0:26:28.619 the position is hopeless. All further reinforcements should be stopped 0:26:28.619 --> 0:26:31.620 in the remainder of the British Expeditionary Force. Now about 0:26:31.619 --> 0:26:35.700 150,000 should be re-embarked at once. And they did indeed 0:26:35.700 --> 0:26:41.619 get 136 136,000 Brits and 20,000 poles off Churchill. Though 0:26:41.660 --> 0:26:45.220 I think this is a wonderful note on which to end. He. 0:26:45.300 --> 0:26:49.100 He censors bad news. There's sinking of boats even as 0:26:49.100 --> 0:26:53.170 France collapse. And he says, quote, the newspapers have got 0:26:53.170 --> 0:26:57.250 quite enough disaster for today. At least he he realises 0:26:57.250 --> 0:27:00.010 he's got to buck up a country that that maybe 0:27:00.050 --> 0:27:02.850 is the difference between he and the French Prime Minister 0:27:03.210 --> 0:27:07.330 Churchill is. Yeah, well, the task of revitalizing his country. 0:27:07.369 --> 0:27:09.130 If you want to read, you should read this book. 0:27:09.170 --> 0:27:12.409 And then I would suggest that you read the chapters 0:27:12.609 --> 0:27:16.130 in Martin Gilbert's big biography, the eight volume biography. Just 0:27:16.130 --> 0:27:21.770 go find. Volume six is what this is in the 0:27:21.810 --> 0:27:26.050 volume is entitled Finest Hour. Read the story of his 0:27:26.050 --> 0:27:29.370 visits to the French. I've recounted crazy on this show, 0:27:29.369 --> 0:27:33.170 but they're very. And he. Churchill is trying to get 0:27:33.170 --> 0:27:37.570 them to say, send out an order that everyone is 0:27:37.570 --> 0:27:42.050 to fight and fight their way someplace south and keep 0:27:42.050 --> 0:27:44.450 it up till the coast and then run to Africa. 0:27:44.450 --> 0:27:48.570 If you've got to write Churchill, then in these chapters 0:27:48.570 --> 0:27:53.270 shows that he's giving similar orders to the British civilian 0:27:53.270 --> 0:27:57.750 population in the event of an invasion. In other words, 0:27:57.750 --> 0:28:00.670 there was no command at the top that we're going 0:28:00.710 --> 0:28:05.550 to go on no matter what. And and Churchill, in 0:28:05.550 --> 0:28:10.550 a very moving moment, says, you can destroy two German 0:28:10.550 --> 0:28:13.590 Army corps in the streets of Paris and says, we've 0:28:13.630 --> 0:28:17.350 ordered the surrender of Paris. And Churchill says nations that 0:28:17.350 --> 0:28:22.350 die fighting rise up again. Those that surrender tamely are 0:28:22.350 --> 0:28:26.990 gone forever. And that's a very low moment in the 0:28:27.869 --> 0:28:29.950 in the story of these four trips. 0:28:30.310 --> 0:28:32.710 It is indeed. And hold that thought. We'll be back 0:28:32.710 --> 0:28:34.990 for a little bit more on the collapse of France 0:28:34.990 --> 0:28:39.790 from Winston Churchill's memoir, all the prior dialogues on the 0:28:39.790 --> 0:28:44.310 World War Two memoirs are collected@hughforhillsdale.com. Welcome back America. I'm 0:28:44.310 --> 0:28:47.190 Hugh Hewitt with Doctor Larry Arnn, president of Hillsdale College, 0:28:47.190 --> 0:28:51.570 all things Hillsdale hillsdale.edu. Doctor, since we're talking about the 0:28:51.570 --> 0:28:55.130 low point of France in 1940, let's also talk about 0:28:55.130 --> 0:28:57.930 Charles de Gaulle, who gave some hope in that moment. 0:28:58.170 --> 0:28:59.970 But Churchill de Gaulle gets out. 0:29:00.290 --> 0:29:00.810 Of France. 0:29:01.050 --> 0:29:03.690 De Gaulle keeps fighting, and he has de Gaulle address 0:29:03.690 --> 0:29:07.210 the British nation the night he arrives in the United Kingdom. 0:29:07.210 --> 0:29:10.610 I think that's a brilliant stroke, even though they're collapsing 0:29:10.650 --> 0:29:13.970 across the channel. We've got this French general here, and 0:29:13.970 --> 0:29:15.730 he says, fight on, because they got all the North 0:29:15.730 --> 0:29:17.770 African Empire to worry about, right? 0:29:18.890 --> 0:29:21.930 Oh, yeah. Yeah. And they, you know, de Gaulle was 0:29:21.970 --> 0:29:27.130 a he was a serious man. He was a wonderful man. Uh, 0:29:27.530 --> 0:29:31.489 Churchill was mentioned in this chapter that he walked up. 0:29:31.530 --> 0:29:34.770 He just noticed de Gaulle, who was not a senior. 0:29:34.810 --> 0:29:38.290 He wasn't a general. Why was he in the room? Uh, 0:29:38.610 --> 0:29:40.970 he had to spit for it. And people recognized that. 0:29:40.970 --> 0:29:44.770 Churchill just noticed his demeanor, his countenance, and he walked 0:29:44.770 --> 0:29:48.550 up to him at one point and said, man of destiny. Man, Amen. Man. 0:29:48.590 --> 0:29:53.750 My mom, Justine. And, uh, Churchill was right about that. Now, 0:29:53.750 --> 0:29:57.670 it is true that they fought like cats and dogs 0:29:57.670 --> 0:30:01.470 through the war, and de Gaulle fought with Roosevelt like 0:30:01.470 --> 0:30:03.750 cats and dogs. He got to the place where Roosevelt 0:30:03.750 --> 0:30:08.510 would hardly talk to him. And, uh, uh, and, you know, later, 0:30:08.550 --> 0:30:12.630 de Gaulle would not join certain parts of NATO. Correct. 0:30:12.670 --> 0:30:16.710 Very independent minded costs. And whatever was the spirit that 0:30:16.710 --> 0:30:19.550 kept him strong in the face of this defeat, he 0:30:19.590 --> 0:30:23.470 he kept France together. And the spirit that led him 0:30:23.510 --> 0:30:27.950 do that also made him a very difficult ally. 0:30:28.510 --> 0:30:30.230 When we come back next week, I want to talk 0:30:30.230 --> 0:30:34.230 about French exhaustion and maybe American exhaustion, but we'll leave 0:30:34.230 --> 0:30:37.310 that for next week. All of you are interested in this. 0:30:37.310 --> 0:30:39.910 All of the dialogues on Churchill's World War II memoirs 0:30:39.950 --> 0:30:44.150 are collected over@hughforhillsdale.com, and they go back quite some time. 0:30:44.150 --> 0:30:46.670 We're on volume two, and we'll be picking up on 0:30:46.670 --> 0:30:50.460 chapter nine and or ten and 11 next week. If 0:30:50.460 --> 0:30:52.180 you want to catch up with us and read the 0:30:52.180 --> 0:30:56.380 Bordeaux Armistice and Admiral Darlan and the French Fleet. Quite 0:30:56.380 --> 0:31:00.140 the dramas them both. Until then, stay tuned. And I've 0:31:00.140 --> 0:31:02.380 got to say about Admiral Darlan, if any of you 0:31:02.380 --> 0:31:05.540 do not know if it hadn't been for de Gaulle, 0:31:06.100 --> 0:31:09.260 Darlan would be the last Frenchman that you'd ever have 0:31:09.260 --> 0:31:12.380 heard of from World War Two. But de Gaulle got 0:31:12.380 --> 0:31:16.220 out and Darlan, who went back and forth. And we'll 0:31:16.220 --> 0:31:20.140 get into his complicated story next week. Admiral Darlan went 0:31:20.140 --> 0:31:23.020 back and forth. Uh, he could have stood up as 0:31:23.020 --> 0:31:25.580 de Gaulle did, stand up just as France was falling. 0:31:25.580 --> 0:31:28.100 But he didn't. He made his peace with the Vichy 0:31:28.140 --> 0:31:31.940 government in Pétain and the. And, uh, it was just 0:31:31.940 --> 0:31:35.020 a very sad moment for the Admiral. He redeemed himself 0:31:35.020 --> 0:31:38.820 a bit. We'll talk more about that next week. Until then, though, 0:31:38.980 --> 0:31:41.980 we're in volume two. I have the paperback edition, as 0:31:41.980 --> 0:31:44.620 I was just mentioning. Uh, I think it's easiest one 0:31:44.620 --> 0:31:48.480 to work with rather than the expensive and original first 0:31:48.480 --> 0:31:51.680 edition volumes or the memoirs that are everywhere. You can 0:31:51.680 --> 0:31:54.280 find and use bookstores. They're heavier to carry. I like 0:31:54.280 --> 0:31:57.080 the paperbacks. They're easy to work with. All the Hillsdale 0:31:57.080 --> 0:32:02.520 dialogues are found@hughforhillsdale.com and everything. Hillsdale, including brand new online 0:32:02.520 --> 0:32:06.000 courses for free and the opportunity to sign up for Imprimis, 0:32:06.000 --> 0:32:10.520 the monthly speech digest for free. You can find that@hillsdale.edu. 0:32:10.920 --> 0:32:13.400 Thank you Adam. Thank you doctor. Thank you Harley. Thank 0:32:13.400 --> 0:32:15.800 you Generalissimo. I'll talk to you on Monday on the 0:32:15.800 --> 0:32:17.120 next hear your show. 0:32:23.080 --> 0:32:26.280 Thanks for listening to the Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the 0:32:26.280 --> 0:32:34.960 Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes@podcast.hillsdale.edu or wherever you find 0:32:34.960 --> 0:32:41.040 your audio. For more information about Hillsdale College, head to hillsdale.edu.