S1: Every week. Hillsdale College President Larry Arnn joins Hugh Hewitt
S1: to discuss great books, great men, and great ideas. This
S1: is Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network.
S1: More episodes@podcast.hillsdale.edu or wherever you find your audio.
S2: Morning glory needed. Grace America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. That music
S2: means the Hillsdale dialogue is underway this week. Doctor Larry
S2: Arnn and I are back into Winston Churchill's World War
S2: II memoirs. We're in the second volume, Their Finest Hour,
S2: chapters eight and nine, which are titled Home Defense and
S2: the French Agony. It's a lot to cover in a
S2: half an hour of talking, but we want to start
S2: on what my volume is. Page 143. Doctor Aaron, the
S2: reader of these pages and future years should realize how
S2: dense and baffling is the veil of the unknown. Why does.
S2: Why does Churchill tell us that? He reminds us of
S2: that a few times in the course of these books. Well,
S2: he's writing knowing what happened, but he didn't know what
S2: happened or what happened in 1940.
S3: Yeah. Well, he. So anybody living his life doesn't know
S3: what's going to happen tomorrow, you know. And so if
S3: you read history where the examples are about what life
S3: is like, you can experience through one life things and
S3: you get that experience as you go. And you don't
S3: have much when you start and you only get one
S3: life's experience, but you can get a lot of experience
S3: if you read history. But when you read it, you
S3: have to remember that the people who made it didn't
S3: know any more about tomorrow than we know today. And
S3: that means that these shocking and cataclysmic and wonderful things
S3: that are told in this chapter and in this book.
S3: They were all accomplished or failed at by people who
S3: are just as ignorant as we are about tomorrow and
S3: even the state of things today. Because right now what
S3: we're hearing is in these chapters is that the French
S3: army is collapsing on a scale and at a pace
S3: that an army that size had never collapsed in human history.
S3: And of course, nobody could predict that's what would happen.
S3: In fact, Churchill definitely predicted it would not happen on
S3: the radio right after he became prime minister, and then
S3: a month later, he was proved wrong. And he's coping
S3: with that every day while he's getting ready to figure
S3: out how to stop the Germans from coming ashore.
S2: Well, that's what he that's what I took away from this,
S2: is that he wanted to communicate to everyone who would
S2: read this book, and we're reading it 85 years after
S2: the fact, that the Brits were really worried about an invasion.
S2: I mean, they really were worried about invasion. Churchill writes,
S2: or would they go to Ireland? So maybe they'd go
S2: to Ireland first and then come across the Irish Sea.
S2: But that's a palpable fear that we've never had in
S2: the United States, even after nine over 11. We weren't
S2: worried about an invasion even after Pearl Harbor. We might
S2: have been worried about coastal California, but we weren't worried
S2: about an invasion in force. We were worried about attack.
S2: They were worried about waking up some morning and seeing
S2: a reverse Normandy. That's quite a burden to bear.
S3: Yeah, Churchill learned he doesn't. Some of the best things
S3: are not in this book, in part because he was
S3: such an important man. And he's writing about recent events.
S3: But one of them is the day he was informed
S3: when he went over the first war plans, that they
S3: couldn't defend the beaches. He sort of implies otherwise in
S3: this book. But the truth is, if the Germans got
S3: ashore with a sizable force, they couldn't contest it unless
S3: they had an equal, equal size force to fight them.
S3: But that meant that they had to gather the serious troops. And,
S3: you know, there was one division that was serious troops
S3: and well equipped. There were other divisions that were well trained,
S3: but they didn't. They left their equipment behind in France.
S3: And so they had to they had to gather more
S3: higher up north. They had to gather away from the
S3: coast in concentrated areas and try to attack. And that
S3: meant that probably large swaths of territory in the South
S3: would be lost. London is in the south. And so
S3: when he saw that, and he sees at one point them, uh,
S3: because they didn't have equipment, uh, he, you know, when
S3: he writes to the Dominion Prime ministers in the second chapter,
S3: we're reading and all that, he doesn't go into all this,
S3: but he actually witnessed them. uh, getting 55 gallon gas,
S3: petrol drums and putting wicks in them and timing how
S3: to make them explode at the right place. When they
S3: got down by the beach, that's what they were going
S3: to try to do. And so it was a very
S3: bad situation. And if they had come, they would have
S3: taken a lot of territory.
S2: If Hitler had only kept up his momentum. He stopped
S2: once outside of Dunkirk because he didn't know what was
S2: going on. We talked about that a couple of weeks ago.
S2: The fact that Hitler is in the fog of war
S2: as well, and he doesn't want to get overextended, but
S2: then he pauses Operation Sea Lion and he doesn't. Come on.
S2: Churchill is a is a realist. I long for more
S2: regular troops with which to rebuild and expand the army.
S2: Wars are not won by heroic militias. And he's also
S2: doing very practical things. He asked the Admiralty, the Navy
S2: for the benefit of the Steelers fan to transfer 50
S2: trained and half trained pilots to Fighter Command because he
S2: realizes it's all going to be in the sky. Um,
S2: it's all going to depend upon who owns the sky.
S2: So he has a good strategic grasp of the situation.
S2: He just doesn't have the instruments of war in his hand.
S3: Yeah. Well, so I refer everybody to Victor Hanson's very
S3: great book, The Second World Wars. It's a wonderful book,
S3: and I learned from it. And I've been studying that
S3: war for 40 years now or more. Uh, he goes
S3: into the British war effort and he, he describes how
S3: much it got out of itself, especially adjusting for its size.
S3: In the end, British war production was greater than German war.
S3: Production in Germany is a significantly larger country, and the
S3: reason for it is in this chapter, this, uh, avalanche
S3: of memos coming out, you know, they actually did invent
S3: a stamp here in 1940 that he would put on
S3: the memo saying, action this day, let's, you know, and,
S3: and one of the memos we read in here is
S3: that the Indian troops were going to get we got
S3: a whole lot of troops in India. Bring them back.
S3: They can fight here. We'll send some lesser troops to India.
S3: And then he says, two weeks later, we were told
S3: we could get some of them back in two weeks.
S3: And I learned that some of them have only just
S3: embarked for the journey. What's going on? We gotta hurry,
S3: you know. Of course. It's just think how? Think of
S3: an idea. And he also, by the way, arranges right
S3: after he becomes prime minister. And we're in the second
S3: month of his premiership right now. And Germany is attacking
S3: and France is falling and all the world's falling apart. Right.
S3: He says orders are given in writing. And he just
S3: dictated streams of these things. And, you know, Don Rumsfeld,
S3: whom I knew well and admired very much. He was
S3: famous for his snowflakes. Yep. As I say, these little
S3: memos would fall on people from all over. He was
S3: very good administrator, and he's a very good man. I
S3: miss him, but he, uh. And I talked to him
S3: about it one time because I had heard complaints from
S3: people working for him, and I brought it up to him.
S3: He said, yeah, he says, it annoys people. And I said,
S3: did you know that Winston Churchill did just the same? And,
S3: you know, you could never win a point on Don Rumsfeld.
S3: He was a very competitive human being. He would say,
S3: of course I knew that.
S2: Well, since we're talking rummy, he was a dangerous interview,
S2: meaning that if you were unprepared or said something stupid,
S2: he would be the first to let the audience know
S2: that you had done that. So more than once I
S2: got scorched by rummy, and that was endearing. I actually
S2: thought he was going to run for president at one point,
S2: I believe in 1980 against Reagan. Maybe it was 88
S2: against H.W., and then he chose the better part of
S2: valour and decided not to.
S3: So I know some gossip that I'll relate. Why not?
S3: It's the honor of Rumsfeld. Rumsfeld was waiting by the
S3: phone in 1980, and George. George H.W. Bush was waiting
S3: by the phone. Reagan was going to call one of
S3: them to be vice president, and things happened. I won't
S3: say what those were. And Reagan called H.W. and, uh,
S3: then he called Rumsfeld. Rumsfeld told me this, and he said, uh,
S3: I've called George Bush. And Rumsfeld said, thank God for it, Mr. President. Uh,
S3: there was another deal offered to him. I won't say
S3: what it was. And, uh, and Rumsfeld replied, I was
S3: afraid you were going to take that deal. And, uh,
S3: Reagan replied, never. So the point is, he was a
S3: very important man, and he was not far from the presidency,
S3: at least, at least.
S2: Pause right there, doctor. At least for 20 years, not
S2: far from the presidency. Much more coming ahead. Don't go anywhere, America.
S2: I'm talking with Doctor Larry Arnn, president of Hillsdale College,
S2: all things hillsdale@hillsdale.edu. All the prior Hillsdale dialogues at Q
S2: four hillsdale.com. New courses, by the way, over@hillsdale.edu. All for
S2: free as is in Primus, the monthly speech digest. Just
S2: go to hillsdale.edu and sign up and stay tuned. I'll
S2: be right back with doctor R. Welcome back America. Hugh
S2: Hewitt with Doctor Larry Arnn. When we broke off, we
S2: were talking about the 1980 Republican Convention and a deal
S2: that was under discussion there a couple times.
S3: In his.
S2: Life for the benefit of the audience. We should tell
S2: them what the deal was, because that's a matter of
S2: historical record. Jerry Ford's people had approached President Reagan, then
S2: candidates Reagan, then Governor Reagan's people with the proposition of
S2: being a co-president. And Reagan dallied with that and then
S2: firmly rejected it. And I think, is that what the
S2: Secretary Rumsfeld was referring to? Thank God you didn't accept that.
S3: Yeah. And see, Reagan, when the convention opened in 1980,
S3: Reagan was 17 points behind Jimmy Carter. You eventually beat
S3: him by 8 or 9, I think, anyway. The argument
S3: was you can't win. People don't trust you. But if
S3: I join you and Henry Kissinger joins you, then they
S3: will have confidence and we can win the election. That
S3: was the arrangement. And there's nothing discreditable about it. But
S3: it's much to Reagan's credit that he didn't take it and, uh, change,
S3: you know, it's a good thing, but.
S2: Well, they proposed an extra constitutional solution, not constitutional. It's
S2: a unitary executive. You can't have a co-president. Let me
S2: go back to a line in home defense doctrine. This
S2: was a time when all Britain worked and strove to
S2: the utmost limit, and was united as never before. He
S2: You referred to that the one desire of all the
S2: males and many women was to have a weapon. The
S2: sense of fear seemed entirely lacking in the people, and
S2: their representatives in Parliament were not unworthy of their mood.
S2: You know, if the people of Iran had had a weapon,
S2: this would not be the despotism that it is.
S3: Yeah. That's right. It. And remember, the habits of self-government
S3: are good for a person, right? That's. We talked about
S3: socialism last week. If you don't take care of yourself, right.
S3: What kind of person will you be? And then then
S3: if you get a citizen body that, uh, you know,
S3: it's the two 50th here directly and we did a
S3: movie about it. Right. And, uh, last last week, you know,
S3: this week you quoted Churchill. Wars are not won by
S3: heroic militias. Well, the early battles of the American Revolution were,
S3: in fact, won that way. And later there was an
S3: army and a French army too involved. And that was necessary.
S3: But that army, our army was built on a heroic militia.
S2: And on heroic men. Just last week, our mutual friend,
S2: Eric Metaxas has a new book out on the American Revolution,
S2: and we spent the large part of our time talking
S2: about one man, Henry Knox, about whom not many people
S2: know the Large Man, 300 pounder bookseller. And Washington says
S2: to him, I need some cannon from Saratoga. And he leaves.
S2: Boston goes all the way too far. And heck, back
S2: to upstate New York in the middle of winter, grabs
S2: £15,000 of cannon and gets them on sleds and brings
S2: them back and forces the Brits out of Boston, which
S2: remains forever thereafter, free. That's one guy, and that's a militiaman.
S2: He's not a soldier. He's a bookseller.
S3: Yeah, that's right, that's right. I mean, you know, Paul Revere,
S3: who was a really radical guy. He was a silversmith,
S3: I think. And, uh, he, you know, but, you know,
S3: they lived in the country even if they lived in
S3: the city and they knew about horses and they knew
S3: about work, and they knew about axes and hatchets and
S3: farm equipment, and they knew about guns and, uh, you know,
S3: come to find, you know, the British, uh, there's a,
S3: in this, we made this film Revolutionary America, which you'll
S3: soon be able to watch on streaming. And there's a
S3: wonderful quote from the General Burgoyne, I think was the
S3: first British general. And he said, they're fighting with great spirit,
S3: and he insults us more than in the in the
S3: Seven Years War, the French and Indian War. And we're
S3: not used to this kind of warfare. Well, that's the
S3: only that's the only kind the colonists knew how to wage.
S2: Because they had been waging it on the frontier forever.
S2: But before we move on to the French agony, I
S2: do want to bring the fact that Churchill was so
S2: much in the weeds, I imagine, um, that you are
S2: in the weeds at Hillsdale College and people don't know
S2: when to expect something. He writes a memo to his
S2: Minister of information who's not like in the war cabinet.
S2: It's just some fellows, the Ministry of Information, asking him
S2: to ask the public, quote, to handle air raids in
S2: a cool way and on a diminishing tone of public interest.
S2: In other words, to make the abnormal normal and not
S2: to lose your head. Even if the neighbor's house gets
S2: blown to bits, that's that's in the weeds.
S3: Well, if I'm not mistaken, the Minister of Information at
S3: that moment was Alfred Duff Cooper. Oh, great. A great
S3: Churchill friend, and he certainly was later that I think
S3: he was on this day. And, uh, he was a
S3: firm man. His what son? John Julius Norwich, one of
S3: the great historians of Venice, is I think he's still alive.
S3: He's older now, Anyway, he was like his daddy. They
S3: were both great characters. They were really great people to
S3: have a good dinner with. They could talk into the
S3: night and they were not averse to drink. And Alfred
S3: Duff Cooper was quite a guy. And, uh, good to
S3: be able to say a word about him here.
S2: I want to also, before we move to French, you
S2: mentioned this, that Churchill summoned the troops from India and
S2: was upset that the troops from India had not arrived.
S2: I think it is little appreciated. I put in my
S2: notes that the British Empire, as in Empire one, saved
S2: the the West saved democracy. You know, colonialism is much
S2: abused now and it will never come back, I don't think.
S2: But it was the British Empire that saved the world
S2: from Hitler, and only the Empire could have done it.
S3: Yeah, well, I looked it up this morning to refresh
S3: my memory. It was only in July of 1944. That's
S3: six weeks after D-Day that the Americans had more troops
S3: fighting on the continent than the British. And for from what?
S3: From June 1940, the month we're in right now until
S3: the summer of 1941, the British were alone and we
S3: didn't join them. And that's when Hitler attacked the Soviet Union.
S3: It's his former ally. And we didn't join the war
S3: until December 1942. So that's two years, two and a
S3: half years alone, more or less. And, uh, the fact
S3: that they stood up to that is just amazing. And, uh, uh,
S3: the fact that the Empire and remember, there was no
S3: imperial soldier in the dominions or in India, the remaining
S3: part of the empire that was not self-governing. There was
S3: no power in London to conscript any soldier in any
S3: of those countries. They sent them. And see India had
S3: an all volunteer army in both World Wars, and they
S3: had A million, 2 million in the first war, and
S3: a million something in the Second War fighting. And in
S3: the first war, very large part of them fought in
S3: Europe and they were all volunteers. And so that meant
S3: that Churchill was right about something, and that is that
S3: the empire is a association of sentiment.
S2: He is right about a lot of things, doctor. We'll
S2: come back and talk about more of the things. He
S2: was right. An association of sentiment. Love that. Don't go anywhere, America,
S2: except over to hillsdale.edu, where you'll find all things, including
S2: applications for you rising seniors to Hillsdale. Stay tuned. Welcome
S2: back America. Hugh Hewitt with Doctor Larry Arnn, president of
S2: Hillsdale College, all things hillsdale@hillsdale.edu. We are talking about the Empire.
S2: When we went to break Doctor Arnn, the empire that
S2: Winston Churchill presided over as Prime Minister during the war.
S3: When Indians worth commenting here. When Indian independence came, the
S3: Indian soldiers were all offered service in the British Army
S3: if they wanted it. And the British Army was generally
S3: surprised that almost all of them didn't. In fact, a
S3: minority did, which indicates something. I don't know a lot
S3: of places where I think Winston Churchill was wrong, but
S3: I think he was probably wrong in thinking that India
S3: had not yet become a country, because it's had a
S3: very difficult history and it's a very promising nation today.
S3: But it showed even from 1945, 1948, when independence came,
S3: it showed that it was becoming a nation. It had
S3: been a conglomeration of different.
S2: He might have been right on the timing, though. Doctor,
S2: I just finished rereading Freedom at Midnight. It was a
S2: pretty awful birth. It was a massacre. Yeah.
S3: And well, he he predicted a million dead. And there
S3: were about that that were killed in the Civil War
S3: that ensued. And of course, Pakistan split off. And that's
S3: chiefly Muslim nation. And India is chiefly a Hindu nation,
S3: and they're both mixed up. Some too. And they, you know,
S3: don't get along very well today. And they both have
S3: nuclear weapons. So he was right about some important things, too. And,
S3: you know, the main thing to comment about that was,
S3: in my opinion, Churchill. Well, all you gotta do is
S3: read it. I've written about it. Churchill was well meaning
S3: to the Indians, and he never denied their right to
S3: govern themselves. He just thought they weren't ready to do
S3: that yet.
S2: So let's move to the French, who ought to have
S2: been better prepared to govern themselves than they were. I'm
S2: not sure what to think about the average Frenchman in 1940.
S2: De Gaulle is all honor to de Gaulle. He's a
S2: strong man from beginning to end. He never wavers. He
S2: gets out of the country in time. Churchill is driven
S2: crazy by him throughout the course of the war, but
S2: he had a great courage. I don't know what to
S2: think about Reynaud or or. I know what to think
S2: about Patton. What do you make, generally of the collapse
S2: of so many Frenchmen at the top? Because they could
S2: have withdrawn to Burgundy. They could have gone to the
S2: south of the country, and they. Darlan could have kept
S2: on the fight, and he chose not to either. Well.
S3: France is a great nation. The best. I can explain it,
S3: of course, because there was a lot of heroism. By
S3: the way, Churchill had several friends who comported themselves beautifully
S3: in this collapse. But I think that maybe they were
S3: afflicted by the same thing that afflicted British politics in
S3: the 1930s. And that was the cost of the First
S3: World War was so grievous. And, you know, we on
S3: a on a global scale, we met in the First
S3: World War lessons that were apparent in 1864 in our country,
S3: in the last battles of the Civil War. But of course,
S3: Much expanded and much intensified, and the body count was
S3: enormous and the fighting conditions were terrible. And then now here,
S3: what are we going to do that again? And they
S3: just weren't ready to do it. And their army was
S3: not ready to do it.
S2: And you can sort of understand that. Uh, stay on standby, doctor.
S2: We'll be right back and continue on with the French
S2: collapse and all that followed. Welcome back America. I'm Hugh Hewitt.
S2: Hillsdale dialogue time all things hillsdale@hillsdale.edu. All of our dialogues
S2: with Doctor Larry Arnn, my guest collected at hue for hillsdale.com.
S2: Doctor Arnn, when we went to break, we were talking
S2: about the rapid French collapse in 1940. And why did
S2: it happen?
S3: They built this, uh, they staked their hopes on a
S3: wonderful defensive line, maybe the strongest ever built, called the
S3: Maginot Line. And Churchill tells the story of that in
S3: these chapters. What the Germans did was go around it
S3: using the tanks. Right? And then they didn't. They penetrated
S3: it in a place or two very late. But most
S3: of it was intact when the armistice came. And one
S3: of the commanding generals said, I don't want to lay
S3: down my arms. All of our defenses are still intact here. Right.
S3: So they had staked so much on that. And, I
S3: don't know, maybe they put their best troops in there, too.
S3: But the ones that were not in there were just
S3: basically not ready to go. And they, you know, and
S3: you got to hand it to the Germans, even to Hitler,
S3: their plan until about two years, I think it was
S3: before the war, was to repeat what they had done
S3: in the First World War, to go around through Belgium,
S3: swing to the right, you know, take the the army
S3: from the north West, and they built this Maginot Line
S3: to force that. And the Maginot Line runs from basically
S3: the beginning of the Ardennes forest, which is thought to
S3: be impassable. North and west, up toward Belgium. And then
S3: the idea was the British and the French armies would
S3: gather at the Belgian border and maybe go over into Belgium.
S3: Belgium was an ally and fight the fight the German
S3: army there. That was the plan. Well, what Hitler did
S3: was he got Rommel and Guderian, his best generals, probably.
S3: Rommel certainly was one of the best to come up
S3: with another plan. And they thought they could get tanks
S3: through the hilly, even mountainous passageways and through the Ardennes
S3: forest and attack them from behind. And that's what they did.
S3: And they got between them in Paris, and they cut
S3: the communications of the Allied armies and everything was a mess.
S3: It was chaos, right. And communications broke down. And the British,
S3: it's very it's a wonderful story how all this happened. And,
S3: you know, my father in law was in this retreat
S3: and left Dunkirk Beach the last day. And he could
S3: recount to you about it, you know, first of all,
S3: everything's a mess. The maps are completely disorganized, and there
S3: never really was an order given. You guys fight your
S3: way to the beach and come home. And there never
S3: was an order given you guys the French. You guys
S3: break with the British and retreat to the south toward
S3: Paris and maybe south of it. The British just sort
S3: of started moving that way. They just it was chaos
S3: and nothing was working. The communications were terrible and they
S3: started fighting their way home. And they did fight in
S3: good order and kept themselves together marvelously. I mean, it's
S3: remarkable how they performed and are in retreat. And, you know,
S3: the famous soldiers of Calais that we talked about in
S3: the previous week. They rescued their army and considerable part
S3: of the French army. But the French, they just got
S3: their way back toward Paris, and they basically just fell apart.
S2: General Alan Brooke, who later becomes the George Marshall for
S2: Great Britain, the chief of the General Staff, sends a
S2: note to the Secretary of War, Anthony Eden. At that point,
S2: the position is hopeless. All further reinforcements should be stopped
S2: in the remainder of the British Expeditionary Force. Now about
S2: 150,000 should be re-embarked at once. And they did indeed
S2: get 136 136,000 Brits and 20,000 poles off Churchill. Though
S2: I think this is a wonderful note on which to end. He.
S2: He censors bad news. There's sinking of boats even as
S2: France collapse. And he says, quote, the newspapers have got
S2: quite enough disaster for today. At least he he realises
S2: he's got to buck up a country that that maybe
S2: is the difference between he and the French Prime Minister
S2: Churchill is. Yeah, well, the task of revitalizing his country.
S3: If you want to read, you should read this book.
S3: And then I would suggest that you read the chapters
S3: in Martin Gilbert's big biography, the eight volume biography. Just
S3: go find. Volume six is what this is in the
S3: volume is entitled Finest Hour. Read the story of his
S3: visits to the French. I've recounted crazy on this show,
S3: but they're very. And he. Churchill is trying to get
S3: them to say, send out an order that everyone is
S3: to fight and fight their way someplace south and keep
S3: it up till the coast and then run to Africa.
S3: If you've got to write Churchill, then in these chapters
S3: shows that he's giving similar orders to the British civilian
S3: population in the event of an invasion. In other words,
S3: there was no command at the top that we're going
S3: to go on no matter what. And and Churchill, in
S3: a very moving moment, says, you can destroy two German
S3: Army corps in the streets of Paris and says, we've
S3: ordered the surrender of Paris. And Churchill says nations that
S3: die fighting rise up again. Those that surrender tamely are
S3: gone forever. And that's a very low moment in the
S3: in the story of these four trips.
S2: It is indeed. And hold that thought. We'll be back
S2: for a little bit more on the collapse of France
S2: from Winston Churchill's memoir, all the prior dialogues on the
S2: World War Two memoirs are collected@hughforhillsdale.com. Welcome back America. I'm
S2: Hugh Hewitt with Doctor Larry Arnn, president of Hillsdale College,
S2: all things Hillsdale hillsdale.edu. Doctor, since we're talking about the
S2: low point of France in 1940, let's also talk about
S2: Charles de Gaulle, who gave some hope in that moment.
S2: But Churchill de Gaulle gets out.
S4: Of France.
S2: De Gaulle keeps fighting, and he has de Gaulle address
S2: the British nation the night he arrives in the United Kingdom.
S2: I think that's a brilliant stroke, even though they're collapsing
S2: across the channel. We've got this French general here, and
S2: he says, fight on, because they got all the North
S2: African Empire to worry about, right?
S3: Oh, yeah. Yeah. And they, you know, de Gaulle was
S3: a he was a serious man. He was a wonderful man. Uh,
S3: Churchill was mentioned in this chapter that he walked up.
S3: He just noticed de Gaulle, who was not a senior.
S3: He wasn't a general. Why was he in the room? Uh,
S3: he had to spit for it. And people recognized that.
S3: Churchill just noticed his demeanor, his countenance, and he walked
S3: up to him at one point and said, man of destiny. Man, Amen. Man.
S3: My mom, Justine. And, uh, Churchill was right about that. Now,
S3: it is true that they fought like cats and dogs
S3: through the war, and de Gaulle fought with Roosevelt like
S3: cats and dogs. He got to the place where Roosevelt
S3: would hardly talk to him. And, uh, uh, and, you know, later,
S3: de Gaulle would not join certain parts of NATO. Correct.
S3: Very independent minded costs. And whatever was the spirit that
S3: kept him strong in the face of this defeat, he
S3: he kept France together. And the spirit that led him
S3: do that also made him a very difficult ally.
S2: When we come back next week, I want to talk
S2: about French exhaustion and maybe American exhaustion, but we'll leave
S2: that for next week. All of you are interested in this.
S2: All of the dialogues on Churchill's World War II memoirs
S2: are collected over@hughforhillsdale.com, and they go back quite some time.
S2: We're on volume two, and we'll be picking up on
S2: chapter nine and or ten and 11 next week. If
S2: you want to catch up with us and read the
S2: Bordeaux Armistice and Admiral Darlan and the French Fleet. Quite
S2: the dramas them both. Until then, stay tuned. And I've
S2: got to say about Admiral Darlan, if any of you
S2: do not know if it hadn't been for de Gaulle,
S2: Darlan would be the last Frenchman that you'd ever have
S2: heard of from World War Two. But de Gaulle got
S2: out and Darlan, who went back and forth. And we'll
S2: get into his complicated story next week. Admiral Darlan went
S2: back and forth. Uh, he could have stood up as
S2: de Gaulle did, stand up just as France was falling.
S2: But he didn't. He made his peace with the Vichy
S2: government in Pétain and the. And, uh, it was just
S2: a very sad moment for the Admiral. He redeemed himself
S2: a bit. We'll talk more about that next week. Until then, though,
S2: we're in volume two. I have the paperback edition, as
S2: I was just mentioning. Uh, I think it's easiest one
S2: to work with rather than the expensive and original first
S2: edition volumes or the memoirs that are everywhere. You can
S2: find and use bookstores. They're heavier to carry. I like
S2: the paperbacks. They're easy to work with. All the Hillsdale
S2: dialogues are found@hughforhillsdale.com and everything. Hillsdale, including brand new online
S2: courses for free and the opportunity to sign up for Imprimis,
S2: the monthly speech digest for free. You can find that@hillsdale.edu.
S2: Thank you Adam. Thank you doctor. Thank you Harley. Thank
S2: you Generalissimo. I'll talk to you on Monday on the
S2: next hear your show.
S1: Thanks for listening to the Hillsdale Dialogues, part of the
S1: Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes@podcast.hillsdale.edu or wherever you find
S1: your audio. For more information about Hillsdale College, head to hillsdale.edu.