WEBVTT - A Conversation With Grant Lee CO-Founder & CEO At Gamma 0:00:00.880 --> 0:00:05.000 Unsupervised Learning is a podcast about trends and ideas in cybersecurity, 0:00:05.040 --> 0:00:09.960 national security, AI, technology and society, and how best to 0:00:10.000 --> 0:00:17.720 upgrade ourselves to be ready for what's coming. All right, 0:00:18.079 --> 0:00:19.560 welcome to unsupervised learning. 0:00:19.960 --> 0:00:21.080 Hey, thanks for having me. 0:00:22.440 --> 0:00:25.200 Cool. So, um, I've heard a lot about your product. 0:00:25.200 --> 0:00:28.480 I've seen a couple glimpses of it, um, in screenshots 0:00:28.480 --> 0:00:31.360 and people talking about it on social media. I think 0:00:31.360 --> 0:00:34.360 I might have messed around with it just slightly, a 0:00:34.360 --> 0:00:36.840 little bit a couple of times, but I really want 0:00:36.880 --> 0:00:40.159 to kind of move my whole workflow to kind of 0:00:40.200 --> 0:00:43.199 using it. Can you just give some background on yourself 0:00:43.200 --> 0:00:45.640 and what the what the product and company is? 0:00:45.960 --> 0:00:50.000 Yeah, definitely. So gamma is uh, you can think of 0:00:50.000 --> 0:00:54.360 it as building the anti PowerPoint. So slides as a format. 0:00:54.400 --> 0:00:56.400 I've been around for almost 40 years. We've all used 0:00:56.400 --> 0:00:59.320 it since we were kids. Uh, require a ton of 0:00:59.320 --> 0:01:04.750 formatting designing, aligning of boxes. And we wanted to kind 0:01:04.750 --> 0:01:06.990 of reimagine how people share and present their ideas from 0:01:06.990 --> 0:01:09.390 the ground up. So we started again a little bit 0:01:09.390 --> 0:01:12.069 over four years ago. The idea was really to kind 0:01:12.069 --> 0:01:15.230 of fundamentally rethink all the building blocks and then, of course, 0:01:15.270 --> 0:01:19.150 integrate AI deeply into the entire creation flow so that you, 0:01:19.190 --> 0:01:22.230 as someone that may not have design skills or resources, 0:01:22.430 --> 0:01:24.350 can work with gamma as if you have like an 0:01:24.350 --> 0:01:26.830 expert design partner sitting right next to you, helping you 0:01:26.870 --> 0:01:29.589 guide the entire creation flow along the way. 0:01:31.190 --> 0:01:35.029 Yeah, that makes sense. Are you seeing the whole AI 0:01:35.069 --> 0:01:39.190 thing kind of pushing a desire for this more? Um, 0:01:39.190 --> 0:01:41.990 or is it just that it's enabling the the product 0:01:41.990 --> 0:01:44.950 to be better? Like, um, what sort of trends are 0:01:44.950 --> 0:01:46.910 you seeing, like pushing in this direction? 0:01:47.030 --> 0:01:51.510 Yeah, definitely. I think for many people it's rewiring how they, 0:01:51.550 --> 0:01:54.750 you know, their relationship with technology. So in the past, 0:01:54.750 --> 0:01:57.750 when you go into a tool like PowerPoint or Google Slides, 0:01:57.910 --> 0:02:00.900 you as the creator need to do all the heavy lifting. 0:02:00.900 --> 0:02:03.020 You start with a blank slide, right? And you're going 0:02:03.020 --> 0:02:05.580 in and thinking about, you know, how do I create 0:02:05.580 --> 0:02:08.060 the right layout? How do I express my ideas the 0:02:08.060 --> 0:02:10.700 right way, such that the person on the receiving end 0:02:10.740 --> 0:02:14.340 has the best chance of understanding what's in my head? Um, 0:02:14.419 --> 0:02:17.820 and with gamma, we try to really help pave a 0:02:17.820 --> 0:02:21.700 much more, uh, fun and interesting path so that you're not, uh, 0:02:21.700 --> 0:02:23.660 you know, left to figure it out all on your own. 0:02:23.700 --> 0:02:26.020 We can present you a ton of different design options. 0:02:26.020 --> 0:02:29.500 We can help you craft a more compelling narrative story 0:02:29.500 --> 0:02:32.180 arc to your presentation. We can help find all the 0:02:32.180 --> 0:02:34.739 right assets to complement what you are trying to present. 0:02:34.740 --> 0:02:39.860 So whether that's text, images, uh, diagrams, visuals, um, all 0:02:39.860 --> 0:02:41.899 of that should really help you put your best foot 0:02:41.900 --> 0:02:44.340 forward without you having to boil the ocean to find 0:02:44.620 --> 0:02:47.780 the perfect visual. Um, so in that sense, you know, 0:02:47.820 --> 0:02:50.380 people can go in. It feels a lot more effortless 0:02:50.380 --> 0:02:52.340 to kind of create content. It feels a lot less 0:02:52.380 --> 0:02:54.980 daunting and in many cases, much more fun to go 0:02:54.980 --> 0:02:57.460 into a tool like gamma versus the incumbent tools. 0:02:58.700 --> 0:03:02.210 Yeah, that makes sense. So, um, I'm going to tell 0:03:02.210 --> 0:03:05.290 you what my workflow is, and I want to see how, uh, 0:03:05.290 --> 0:03:07.850 how close we can get there with, uh, the product. 0:03:08.210 --> 0:03:11.650 So the way I've been thinking about this, um, because 0:03:11.650 --> 0:03:15.210 I've done presentations for so long, uh, just having been 0:03:15.210 --> 0:03:17.570 in the industry for so long. Right. And I would 0:03:17.570 --> 0:03:21.130 say that I normally been kind of bad at it. Um, 0:03:21.130 --> 0:03:24.850 I'm getting better more recently because I'm focusing more on, like, 0:03:24.889 --> 0:03:27.810 the arc of the story. Right? Um, and I kind 0:03:27.810 --> 0:03:31.690 of use, uh, Ted as one of my pinnacles, um, 0:03:31.730 --> 0:03:34.850 because usually it's just like an image in the background, 0:03:35.210 --> 0:03:37.730 and the person is talking through the story. Right? And 0:03:37.730 --> 0:03:40.610 then the image is just like. And sometimes there's text 0:03:40.650 --> 0:03:42.570 on it, but mostly it's just like an image that's 0:03:42.570 --> 0:03:47.050 supporting it. So what I've taken to do now is 0:03:47.050 --> 0:03:52.250 essentially I, I just basically rant the whole thing, uh, 0:03:52.250 --> 0:03:55.290 describing the flow start to finish. What is the story 0:03:55.290 --> 0:03:59.000 that I want to tell? And what I've found is that, um, 0:03:59.320 --> 0:04:02.200 this works way better than starting with slides. If I 0:04:02.200 --> 0:04:05.760 start with slides, uh, either if I think of it's 0:04:05.760 --> 0:04:08.720 a cool template or I had a couple of slides. 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:12.080 What I found is it's really it's almost impossible to 0:04:12.120 --> 0:04:15.680 break out of your slides 100%. And what you end 0:04:15.680 --> 0:04:18.560 up doing is you end up like trying to add 0:04:18.560 --> 0:04:21.400 a slide to work with the one that you already have. 0:04:21.400 --> 0:04:23.520 So you're like, well, what should go before it? What 0:04:23.520 --> 0:04:26.160 should come after it, right? When in fact we should 0:04:26.160 --> 0:04:31.760 be thinking nothing about slides whatsoever. Discard all of this. 0:04:32.279 --> 0:04:35.400 Get the flow and the story and like, almost like 0:04:35.400 --> 0:04:38.600 the script, even if you're not going to actually read it. Um, 0:04:38.640 --> 0:04:42.520 which most people don't. But get that working perfectly then 0:04:42.520 --> 0:04:46.360 make the slides. So, um, I think I saw in 0:04:46.400 --> 0:04:48.880 the product somewhere there was like a, a prompt area 0:04:48.880 --> 0:04:52.720 or something, right? Um, but is it possible to basically 0:04:52.720 --> 0:04:58.630 give either almost there or like a mostly there or 0:04:58.630 --> 0:05:02.750 even partially there arc and then say, you know, build 0:05:02.750 --> 0:05:05.630 this out and then I need this much supporting text 0:05:05.630 --> 0:05:07.830 and I need these types of graphics. 0:05:07.870 --> 0:05:10.950 Yes. Yes, definitely. So what you're describing, I think, is, 0:05:10.990 --> 0:05:14.270 is a very sort of natural way people would love 0:05:14.270 --> 0:05:16.830 to build, to craft their presentations as they could. And 0:05:16.830 --> 0:05:18.630 we do see a lot of users now kind of 0:05:18.670 --> 0:05:21.750 changing their workflow from maybe what they had done in 0:05:21.750 --> 0:05:24.150 the past. And so one is, yeah, maybe even going 0:05:24.190 --> 0:05:27.750 into a ChatGPT like tool where you can riff on, 0:05:27.790 --> 0:05:29.830 you know, that, that a little bit, you start with 0:05:29.870 --> 0:05:32.470 a it could be even just like you're recording and 0:05:32.470 --> 0:05:34.870 you're kind of you take the transcript, the initial more 0:05:34.910 --> 0:05:37.790 raw transcript than you use ChatGPT to refine it a 0:05:37.790 --> 0:05:40.510 little bit more, maybe ask it questions around, like, you know, 0:05:40.550 --> 0:05:42.150 what am I missing here? Or like, how could I 0:05:42.150 --> 0:05:45.630 make my story even more impactful or more engaging? Or 0:05:45.670 --> 0:05:47.710 how do I open with a stronger hook or a 0:05:47.710 --> 0:05:49.790 stronger opening? And then you get that to a good 0:05:49.790 --> 0:05:52.349 place you might have, like, now, you know, pretty big 0:05:52.350 --> 0:05:54.909 wall of text. You can copy and paste that the 0:05:54.910 --> 0:05:57.780 entire thing directly into gamma and then say, hey, you know, 0:05:57.820 --> 0:06:00.580 I'm trying to take this and create, you know, a 0:06:00.580 --> 0:06:04.140 ten slide deck that's much more visual, gives me a 0:06:04.180 --> 0:06:08.940 complimentary images and still allows me to hit my main points. And, 0:06:08.980 --> 0:06:11.340 and then gamma can do that for you. Um, you 0:06:11.339 --> 0:06:13.820 can also just, you know, take even the raw input 0:06:13.820 --> 0:06:16.739 like you had mentioned. Like maybe not. You can actually 0:06:16.740 --> 0:06:19.660 skip it altogether. You actually just go directly into gamma 0:06:19.740 --> 0:06:22.500 and say, hey, this is raw input. I need it 0:06:22.500 --> 0:06:27.339 to be made for keynote address. I'm presenting to, you know, 0:06:27.420 --> 0:06:30.020 some technical audience and how do I now take that. 0:06:30.060 --> 0:06:32.460 And so you can describe what you need. Gamma similarly 0:06:32.460 --> 0:06:34.220 can kind of walk you through it. That will get 0:06:34.220 --> 0:06:36.260 you kind of the first draft. And then we also 0:06:36.260 --> 0:06:38.300 now have the ability you can then continue to chat 0:06:38.300 --> 0:06:41.300 with AI to say, hey, okay, first draft is pretty good, 0:06:41.339 --> 0:06:44.860 but you know what? The theme we selected doesn't quite 0:06:44.860 --> 0:06:46.740 have the right look and feel. So why don't we 0:06:46.740 --> 0:06:48.620 go with something completely different? I actually want something a 0:06:48.620 --> 0:06:51.940 little bit more dark and minimalistic, minimalist, and you know, 0:06:51.980 --> 0:06:54.540 can you kind of choose something, uh, something else. And 0:06:54.540 --> 0:06:56.609 gamma can find you a different sort of vibe to 0:06:56.650 --> 0:06:59.450 go with. Then you might also say, hey, you know what? Um, 0:06:59.450 --> 0:07:02.049 there's this one slide. I really liked the layout of this. 0:07:02.410 --> 0:07:05.050 Let's just actually replace all the other supporting slides with 0:07:05.050 --> 0:07:07.770 the same layout, because this one is, like really effective and, 0:07:07.810 --> 0:07:09.890 and kind of, uh, you know, top to bottom, just 0:07:10.090 --> 0:07:14.290 completely revamped the, you know, the deck based on some input. 0:07:14.330 --> 0:07:17.450 You can similarly kind of upload screenshots or images or 0:07:17.490 --> 0:07:20.170 like other supporting information and say, actually, I need an 0:07:20.170 --> 0:07:23.370 additional slide on this. Can you now create, you know, 0:07:23.770 --> 0:07:25.410 keep the rest of the content? I want to now 0:07:25.410 --> 0:07:28.370 build on this because then now let's start riffing. And 0:07:28.370 --> 0:07:30.210 this is the analogy of like having like an expert 0:07:30.210 --> 0:07:32.730 design partner sitting next to you. It's as if you're 0:07:32.730 --> 0:07:34.930 you're a person sitting next to you is that expert 0:07:34.930 --> 0:07:37.970 presentation designer. And you're like, okay, this first draft is okay, 0:07:37.970 --> 0:07:40.490 but I want to keep riffing, tell me what you need, 0:07:40.530 --> 0:07:42.170 and we're going to get you to the right place. 0:07:43.050 --> 0:07:47.090 Yeah, yeah. That last piece, that's exactly what came to 0:07:47.130 --> 0:07:52.650 mind while you were finishing that. Um, yeah. So this 0:07:52.650 --> 0:07:54.890 is a big difference. This is a big difference. As 0:07:54.890 --> 0:07:57.520 opposed to like, okay, this is a website that you 0:07:57.520 --> 0:08:01.400 go to, and it's a website that is basically a 0:08:01.400 --> 0:08:04.880 presentation tool and you can type stuff in. It's a 0:08:04.880 --> 0:08:09.400 completely different thing to be like it's it's basically an agent. 0:08:09.560 --> 0:08:13.680 Gamma is a website agent that you talk to. And 0:08:13.680 --> 0:08:18.280 maybe with the analogy of like, um, started to be 0:08:18.280 --> 0:08:21.480 doing a product design and marketing with you, but um, 0:08:21.640 --> 0:08:25.800 but um, it's like, okay, if you are a super 0:08:25.840 --> 0:08:30.600 high level, uh, CEO or CTO or whatever, you generally 0:08:30.600 --> 0:08:34.240 have a presentation person, right? And this is a superpower 0:08:34.440 --> 0:08:38.080 that you have because they know things about you. They 0:08:38.080 --> 0:08:42.319 know the company. They're also design experts. Totally. So they're 0:08:42.320 --> 0:08:45.320 literally just looking at the screen as it gets updated 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:48.520 and saying, no, more like this, less of this, more 0:08:48.520 --> 0:08:52.120 of that. Right. Yeah. Let's, um, let's text. They're actually 0:08:52.120 --> 0:08:55.040 we want this image to be a little more, you know, 0:08:55.150 --> 0:08:58.790 edgy or whatever. And then, uh, he or she is, like, 0:08:58.790 --> 0:09:02.949 doing the magic. And like, that is. That's really where 0:09:02.950 --> 0:09:03.950 we want to be at. 0:09:03.990 --> 0:09:06.069 Totally. Yeah. Most of us, to your point, do not 0:09:06.070 --> 0:09:08.470 have that person. Right. Like if you are an executive 0:09:08.470 --> 0:09:10.270 of a company, you might have one. You might actually 0:09:10.309 --> 0:09:13.670 have a team of people helping you with that. And like, uh, 0:09:13.670 --> 0:09:17.310 they are proactively both suggesting ideas, but it can also 0:09:17.309 --> 0:09:19.710 just really quickly close the feedback loop. If you have 0:09:19.710 --> 0:09:22.270 something you want to change or something just doesn't feel right, 0:09:22.270 --> 0:09:24.429 they can give you five more ideas and then you 0:09:24.429 --> 0:09:27.350 just keep riffing, right? And we yeah, dude, the average person, 0:09:27.350 --> 0:09:30.670 because they don't have that they get stuck in this very, 0:09:30.870 --> 0:09:34.750 you know, rudimentary stage of like slide creation. And we 0:09:34.750 --> 0:09:37.270 want to help uplevel everybody so that they have access 0:09:37.270 --> 0:09:40.670 to the exact same expertise that, that anybody might have 0:09:40.710 --> 0:09:43.710 if they are an executive of a much larger company. 0:09:44.350 --> 0:09:46.710 So what do you feel like you guys are doing 0:09:46.710 --> 0:09:49.630 better than, um, other people? Because I'm sure there's other 0:09:49.630 --> 0:09:52.949 people sort of moving in this direction. Um, what do 0:09:52.950 --> 0:09:55.819 you feel like you guys get that they don't, or 0:09:55.820 --> 0:09:58.579 the industry in general doesn't get about presentations. 0:09:59.300 --> 0:10:01.620 Yeah, there's a few things. I mean, for one, you know, 0:10:01.660 --> 0:10:03.699 this is our sole focus. I think there's a lot 0:10:03.700 --> 0:10:05.260 of tools out there that are trying to do many 0:10:05.260 --> 0:10:07.540 things all at once, and we're trying to do this 0:10:07.540 --> 0:10:11.939 one thing really great. And so deeply understanding customers pain 0:10:11.940 --> 0:10:14.260 points where we can really help them and go deep 0:10:14.260 --> 0:10:18.500 on that. And obviously, there's a ton of experimentation and 0:10:18.940 --> 0:10:21.580 working closely with those users to really kind of iterate 0:10:21.580 --> 0:10:23.860 a ton over time. So that's something, you know, we've 0:10:23.860 --> 0:10:25.939 been doing it for already four plus years. We intend 0:10:25.940 --> 0:10:27.860 to be doing it for a very, very long time. 0:10:28.059 --> 0:10:31.980 And and it's a space that we're, we're very passionate about. Um, 0:10:32.020 --> 0:10:34.220 the second thing is, you know, we are trying to 0:10:34.380 --> 0:10:38.500 acknowledge that, um, presentations as, as a format probably needs 0:10:38.500 --> 0:10:41.780 a bit of, uh, you know, rethinking or reimagining. I mentioned, 0:10:41.820 --> 0:10:46.380 you know, we, uh, started off in thinking about, okay, 0:10:46.420 --> 0:10:48.819 slides as a format have been around for almost 40 years, 0:10:48.820 --> 0:10:52.260 16 by nine, sort of, you know, fixed an aspect ratio. 0:10:52.260 --> 0:10:55.490 Great for Or presenting. You know, when everyone's sitting in 0:10:55.490 --> 0:10:58.010 the same room staring at the same projector or projection 0:10:58.010 --> 0:11:00.210 screen or, um, you know, I need to print something 0:11:00.210 --> 0:11:02.689 on a piece of paper. But what that doesn't sort 0:11:02.690 --> 0:11:04.610 of acknowledge is like, a lot of what we are 0:11:04.610 --> 0:11:07.410 doing today is like either presenting over screen share or 0:11:07.530 --> 0:11:09.330 I want to send something to somebody and they are 0:11:09.330 --> 0:11:11.370 going to open it on their own phone. And so 0:11:11.370 --> 0:11:14.250 how do you create something that acknowledges where kind of 0:11:14.290 --> 0:11:18.370 work is already shifting and acknowledge or embrace all the 0:11:18.410 --> 0:11:22.530 sort of goodness that, you know, modern web technology already offers, 0:11:22.530 --> 0:11:25.250 the browser and everything else. And so, um, we want 0:11:25.250 --> 0:11:27.570 to be able to enable people not only just to 0:11:27.570 --> 0:11:31.650 create presentations, but create presentations of the future, which is 0:11:31.650 --> 0:11:37.290 mobile friendly by default, interactive, multimedia rich, easily shareable, all 0:11:37.290 --> 0:11:40.410 these things that we think modern tools should enable. And 0:11:40.410 --> 0:11:43.290 so gamma enables, you know, not just the creation of 0:11:43.290 --> 0:11:47.209 presentations but modern presentations. And with that, we also have 0:11:47.250 --> 0:11:50.370 a medium that's much more malleable. So if you are 0:11:50.370 --> 0:11:53.550 starting off with something that is intended to be more presentational. 0:11:53.630 --> 0:11:56.429 What if you also wanted to create an highly engaging 0:11:56.429 --> 0:11:58.829 document that can also be passed around as a proposal? 0:11:58.830 --> 0:12:00.670 Or what if you want to take the exact same 0:12:00.670 --> 0:12:03.670 content and use it for social media and have social 0:12:03.670 --> 0:12:07.750 assets that are really made for social sharing? Or what 0:12:07.750 --> 0:12:09.350 if you want to take the exact same content and 0:12:09.350 --> 0:12:13.430 create microsites, websites, things that are intended to be interactive? Um, 0:12:13.429 --> 0:12:15.510 and so we want, you know, all that to be 0:12:15.670 --> 0:12:17.589 in the same place so that a user doesn't need 0:12:17.590 --> 0:12:20.550 to learn ten different tools. They can use gamma. Gamma 0:12:20.590 --> 0:12:23.350 can help shape and mold that content into whatever format 0:12:23.350 --> 0:12:26.069 it needs to be. And you're off to the races. 0:12:27.550 --> 0:12:33.270 Okay. You're you're getting me excited here. Okay. So I'm 0:12:33.270 --> 0:12:38.470 pulling a layer back from presentations. It's about idea propagation. Totally. 0:12:38.510 --> 0:12:42.950 And then essentially, like the tool needs to figure out okay, um, 0:12:42.950 --> 0:12:45.910 what is the core idea. Does that have like a 0:12:45.910 --> 0:12:49.870 native presentation style that that suits it best. Right. Then 0:12:49.870 --> 0:12:53.420 it's like, okay, who is the presenter? Then it's like, 0:12:53.420 --> 0:12:57.980 who are the receivers of the presentation? And then what? 0:12:58.020 --> 0:13:00.460 Like to your point, what medium are they on? Is 0:13:00.460 --> 0:13:02.220 it zoom? Are they in the room? Is it a 0:13:02.220 --> 0:13:04.580 giant screen? Is it a tiny screen? Right. Is it 0:13:04.580 --> 0:13:07.820 a mobile? Uh, are they only on mobile? Right. And 0:13:07.820 --> 0:13:11.579 then all of those context pieces actually would change that, 0:13:11.620 --> 0:13:14.580 that that is super interesting. Um, you know, what I've 0:13:14.580 --> 0:13:18.020 been experimenting with and I think is really cool is, um, 0:13:18.020 --> 0:13:21.620 sometimes I think I've seen Dwarkesh do this a couple 0:13:21.660 --> 0:13:25.300 of times. Um, so he'll just be talking kind of 0:13:25.300 --> 0:13:27.340 like what we're going to do in this video here. Actually, 0:13:27.340 --> 0:13:31.939 you're already seeing in this video is, um, you'll just 0:13:31.940 --> 0:13:34.620 be talking and over the top of it, like an 0:13:34.620 --> 0:13:38.460 image or especially a video plays. Right? And it's just 0:13:38.460 --> 0:13:41.260 like this little clip. And it could just be like 0:13:41.260 --> 0:13:43.700 a weather pattern. We're talking about chaos. And you see 0:13:43.740 --> 0:13:47.980 like this weather pattern thing. Right? Right. And it's like, oh, 0:13:48.020 --> 0:13:52.010 somehow that little weather pattern thing, when Grant said Chaos. 0:13:52.050 --> 0:13:55.730 It just made it click that much more. Yeah, and 0:13:55.730 --> 0:14:00.330 it's like, I think that is really, really cool. Um, uh, 0:14:00.370 --> 0:14:03.490 are there any features now or any, um, things coming 0:14:03.490 --> 0:14:05.290 soon that are similar to that where it could be 0:14:05.290 --> 0:14:10.050 like maybe not necessarily a slide with text with an image, 0:14:10.090 --> 0:14:12.850 but more so. Okay. This just calls for an image 0:14:12.850 --> 0:14:15.970 by itself, and maybe it calls for an image with text, 0:14:15.970 --> 0:14:18.890 or maybe it calls for a short little video clip. 0:14:19.410 --> 0:14:22.090 Yeah, yeah. They're gonna there's gonna be much more of that, 0:14:22.090 --> 0:14:24.250 I think. Yeah. To your point around, you know, we're 0:14:24.250 --> 0:14:28.450 all visual beings and, uh, the ability to tie concepts 0:14:28.450 --> 0:14:31.250 ideas to something visual just makes it way easier to 0:14:31.250 --> 0:14:35.530 remember and also way easier to share and, you know, spread. Um, 0:14:35.570 --> 0:14:37.810 and so, yeah, we want to lean into, um, the 0:14:37.810 --> 0:14:42.050 ability to create all sorts of outputs. Video, audio will 0:14:42.050 --> 0:14:46.730 certainly be areas we continue to explore. Um, and then, uh, today, 0:14:46.770 --> 0:14:49.410 you know, a lot of our, uh, the content that 0:14:49.410 --> 0:14:52.000 comes out still is pretty, you know, can be text 0:14:52.040 --> 0:14:55.240 heavy or has like a text leaning. You know, aspect 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:57.360 of it. We want to build to also embrace like 0:14:57.400 --> 0:15:00.840 just really visual cinematic content. And so we have a 0:15:00.880 --> 0:15:03.320 lot of cool stuff coming here in the near term, 0:15:03.480 --> 0:15:05.520 which will kind of unlock much more of that sort 0:15:05.520 --> 0:15:08.160 of creativity, where maybe it isn't a bunch of words, 0:15:08.160 --> 0:15:11.280 but it's actually just like this perfect visual that drives 0:15:11.280 --> 0:15:14.240 that point. About your point home. We want to be 0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:15.360 able to support that as well. 0:15:16.400 --> 0:15:19.120 Yeah. And what's cool about that is it all starts 0:15:19.120 --> 0:15:22.360 with the very first piece, which, um, is in the 0:15:22.360 --> 0:15:24.440 product now, which is what do you want to say? 0:15:24.440 --> 0:15:27.360 It starts with that hook and narrative and everything can 0:15:27.360 --> 0:15:31.520 build off of there. Um, what are the current sort of, um, 0:15:31.680 --> 0:15:37.160 graphical options, uh, that we have, like in terms of like, uh, doing, 0:15:37.200 --> 0:15:41.240 you know, animations or like, uh, picking a perfect, uh, 0:15:41.360 --> 0:15:43.400 graphic for a particular slide or whatever. 0:15:43.440 --> 0:15:46.160 Yeah, definitely. So we offer, you know, variety, like, you 0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:48.120 can have gamma go out and search the web for 0:15:48.120 --> 0:15:51.550 images for you if you're looking for beautiful stock images, 0:15:51.550 --> 0:15:55.190 you can have AI generate images for you. So we 0:15:55.190 --> 0:15:58.070 offer a variety of the top models out there so 0:15:58.070 --> 0:16:02.310 you can choose. Every model might have its signature sort of, uh, 0:16:02.670 --> 0:16:04.950 type of visual or aesthetic, and you can lean into 0:16:04.950 --> 0:16:07.070 the one that is most useful for the context of 0:16:07.070 --> 0:16:09.710 what you're presenting on. You can take that. You can, 0:16:09.750 --> 0:16:13.110 you know, continue to edit the AI, the image with AI. 0:16:13.150 --> 0:16:18.510 So removing backgrounds, replacing black backgrounds, adding text, uh, animating 0:16:18.510 --> 0:16:20.390 the image. So if you wanted to take a still 0:16:20.390 --> 0:16:22.470 image and just bring it to life, you can do 0:16:22.470 --> 0:16:25.310 all that in gamma. We have a variety of ways 0:16:25.310 --> 0:16:29.790 you can create things like layouts, visuals, diagrams. So you 0:16:29.830 --> 0:16:33.070 need something much more, uh, sort of intended to be like, 0:16:33.110 --> 0:16:35.110 you know, whether it's like an infographic or something just 0:16:35.110 --> 0:16:38.150 to help you kind of walk through something that could 0:16:38.150 --> 0:16:39.710 just be a, you know, set of bullet points. But 0:16:39.710 --> 0:16:41.750 how do you actually visualize that? We give you a 0:16:41.750 --> 0:16:44.710 variety of tools there. Um, so yeah, there's many different ways. 0:16:44.710 --> 0:16:46.590 I think we want to let the user kind of 0:16:46.630 --> 0:16:49.230 mold and shape their, their content in whatever ways is 0:16:49.230 --> 0:16:52.060 most compelling again for for their audience. And a lot 0:16:52.060 --> 0:16:55.220 of that can be both a combination of, um, you know, 0:16:55.260 --> 0:16:57.940 non AI tools like stock images as well as, you know, 0:16:57.980 --> 0:17:01.540 obviously leaning into AI generation as, as an additional way 0:17:01.540 --> 0:17:03.340 to kind of supercharge your content. 0:17:04.380 --> 0:17:08.379 Nice. And so what seems to be like the most popular, uh, 0:17:08.380 --> 0:17:11.740 feature or set of features? Uh, and what are your favorites? 0:17:12.060 --> 0:17:15.620 Yeah. I mean, a lot of it is, is bucketed 0:17:15.619 --> 0:17:20.580 into the AI generation workflow, right? So it's like, again, 0:17:20.580 --> 0:17:24.740 going back to like changing the way people approach content creation, 0:17:24.740 --> 0:17:27.940 their relationship with technology broadly. I think that's where people 0:17:27.940 --> 0:17:30.580 go in is like, wow, this is just fundamentally different 0:17:31.060 --> 0:17:34.300 than how I might start a presentation in PowerPoint. And 0:17:34.300 --> 0:17:38.820 so people love that it overcomes, you know, two big things. 0:17:38.820 --> 0:17:41.420 One is the cold start problem, like actually knowing even 0:17:41.420 --> 0:17:45.139 how to begin. And two is like people's inherent limitations 0:17:45.140 --> 0:17:47.780 when it comes to like their own creativity. They can 0:17:47.780 --> 0:17:50.649 imagine a lot of things, but to actually translate it 0:17:50.650 --> 0:17:52.810 into something that can be on a canvas, like a slide, 0:17:52.810 --> 0:17:55.810 is like nearly impossible for most people. And so we 0:17:55.810 --> 0:17:57.649 can kind of knock those two down right out the 0:17:57.650 --> 0:18:00.369 gate and give them something that, you know, that actually 0:18:00.369 --> 0:18:02.730 keeps them around and gives them, you know, the tools 0:18:02.730 --> 0:18:04.770 that they need to kind of get the job done. 0:18:06.050 --> 0:18:10.770 Nice. Uh, anything coming out immediately, soon that you're willing to, uh, 0:18:10.770 --> 0:18:12.570 talk about or announce or anything? 0:18:12.609 --> 0:18:15.369 Yeah. So we'll be doing, you know, today kind of 0:18:15.410 --> 0:18:17.530 the premise of gamma. Still, as an end user, you 0:18:17.530 --> 0:18:20.010 go in, you're still, you know, putting a lot of 0:18:20.010 --> 0:18:23.090 manual effort into creating the content. And of course, AI 0:18:23.130 --> 0:18:25.490 is there to assist you, but you're kind of nudging 0:18:25.490 --> 0:18:27.850 things along the way. And let's say, like you get 0:18:27.850 --> 0:18:29.929 to a point where you just love the the output, 0:18:29.930 --> 0:18:32.969 you love the slide deck. You want to like, like 0:18:33.010 --> 0:18:36.730 make this your own. We're going to enable much more 0:18:36.770 --> 0:18:38.890 sort of automated creation such that you have that one 0:18:38.890 --> 0:18:40.970 slide deck. Now you can crank out a hundred more 0:18:40.970 --> 0:18:43.850 just like it, but maybe personalize it for different audiences, 0:18:43.850 --> 0:18:47.890 different types of clients, different folks in different countries via 0:18:47.890 --> 0:18:51.960 our API. So we will allow you to integrate with Zapier. 0:18:52.000 --> 0:18:55.439 Make all of your favorite tools. Uh, keep keep a 0:18:55.440 --> 0:18:58.920 template that you love. Generate many more like it. Personalize 0:18:58.920 --> 0:19:02.119 that content, make that super easy and fast. And so 0:19:02.119 --> 0:19:03.240 I think a lot of people are going to be 0:19:03.240 --> 0:19:05.840 able to get even more value out of gamma by 0:19:05.880 --> 0:19:07.720 plugging in and leveraging your API. 0:19:08.800 --> 0:19:11.440 Okay, cool. That was my next question. What does this 0:19:11.440 --> 0:19:15.000 look like? Multiple releases from now, like two years from now, 0:19:15.040 --> 0:19:19.199 like or even further in the future? What ideally does 0:19:20.000 --> 0:19:22.720 propagating an idea look like with gamma? 0:19:23.160 --> 0:19:26.159 Yeah, I think there's a few different dimensions. Certainly I 0:19:26.160 --> 0:19:29.320 mentioned just the different amounts of like formats we want 0:19:29.320 --> 0:19:32.080 to be able to support. So you know, presentations has 0:19:32.080 --> 0:19:35.040 been our wedge. I think over time we'll be able 0:19:35.040 --> 0:19:37.199 to go in and you know, again not having to 0:19:37.200 --> 0:19:39.000 learn ten different tools. Like what if you can create 0:19:39.000 --> 0:19:42.240 all this content and it's all riffing off of your ideas, right. 0:19:42.280 --> 0:19:44.800 It's your concepts and we're just helping you shape it 0:19:44.800 --> 0:19:48.430 in many more ways. And then of course automating content 0:19:48.430 --> 0:19:52.070 creation so that when needed, you can just have way 0:19:52.070 --> 0:19:54.109 more leverage. So I think you're just going to see 0:19:54.150 --> 0:19:55.669 even more of that. And it's going to be across 0:19:55.670 --> 0:19:58.070 a lot of interesting formats that people can lean into, 0:19:58.070 --> 0:20:01.590 where historically, if they don't have video skills like that, 0:20:01.590 --> 0:20:04.390 feels too intimidating. What if we can offer much more 0:20:04.390 --> 0:20:07.109 of that? So we'll see some of that? Um, I 0:20:07.109 --> 0:20:09.870 think there's going to be, you know, today a lot. 0:20:09.910 --> 0:20:12.670 You know, the vast majority of our users are still, uh, 0:20:12.670 --> 0:20:14.909 individuals in small teams. And I think we're going to 0:20:14.910 --> 0:20:17.350 be able to see kind of, uh, gamma as a 0:20:17.350 --> 0:20:21.790 format start spreading internally into much larger organizations. So, um, 0:20:21.830 --> 0:20:25.070 a viable true alternative and replacement to like a PowerPoint 0:20:25.070 --> 0:20:28.190 and Google Slides, where, you know, if slides is currently 0:20:28.230 --> 0:20:30.109 sort of the language of business and how kind of 0:20:30.150 --> 0:20:33.910 big ideas and decisions get made internally. Um, we'll see 0:20:33.910 --> 0:20:36.550 a lot more shift to tools like gamma, where all 0:20:36.550 --> 0:20:38.629 of a sudden, you know, that's that's the starting point 0:20:38.630 --> 0:20:41.189 and the ending point for how people kind of, you know, 0:20:41.230 --> 0:20:44.629 share information internally. So, um, we're confident we're going to 0:20:44.630 --> 0:20:45.950 start seeing a lot more of that as well. 0:20:47.220 --> 0:20:50.619 Very cool. And where can people find out about the company? 0:20:50.940 --> 0:20:54.419 Yeah, the easiest way is just it's a freemium product. 0:20:54.420 --> 0:20:57.220 So come check it out. It's gamma dot app. Uh, 0:20:57.340 --> 0:21:00.620 you know, you can, um, jump on, start creating content. 0:21:00.619 --> 0:21:03.420 We give all new users, uh, free credits so they 0:21:03.420 --> 0:21:05.780 can play around with our AI. And then, yeah, if 0:21:05.780 --> 0:21:08.740 you're on LinkedIn or Twitter, come find me. Um, I'm 0:21:08.740 --> 0:21:11.340 just Grant Lee. I would love to get your feedback, 0:21:11.380 --> 0:21:14.260 your input, and hear what's working, what's not. We'd love 0:21:14.260 --> 0:21:15.740 to continue to iterate on the product. 0:21:16.660 --> 0:21:19.340 Awesome. Well, thanks a lot, Grant. Talk to you soon. 0:21:19.380 --> 0:21:21.980 Thanks so much for having me. Bye bye. 0:21:23.660 --> 0:21:28.460 Unsupervised learning is produced on Hindenburg Pro using an Sm7 microphone. 0:21:29.300 --> 0:21:31.580 A video version of the podcast is available on the 0:21:31.580 --> 0:21:35.300 Unsupervised Learning YouTube channel, and the text version with full 0:21:35.300 --> 0:21:40.020 links and notes is available at Daniel Comm Slash newsletter. 0:21:40.660 --> 0:21:41.619 We'll see you next time.