S1: Unsupervised Learning is a podcast about trends and ideas in cybersecurity,
S1: national security, AI, technology and society, and how best to
S1: upgrade ourselves to be ready for what's coming. All right,
S1: welcome to unsupervised learning.
S2: Hey, thanks for having me.
S1: Cool. So, um, I've heard a lot about your product.
S1: I've seen a couple glimpses of it, um, in screenshots
S1: and people talking about it on social media. I think
S1: I might have messed around with it just slightly, a
S1: little bit a couple of times, but I really want
S1: to kind of move my whole workflow to kind of
S1: using it. Can you just give some background on yourself
S1: and what the what the product and company is?
S2: Yeah, definitely. So gamma is uh, you can think of
S2: it as building the anti PowerPoint. So slides as a format.
S2: I've been around for almost 40 years. We've all used
S2: it since we were kids. Uh, require a ton of
S2: formatting designing, aligning of boxes. And we wanted to kind
S2: of reimagine how people share and present their ideas from
S2: the ground up. So we started again a little bit
S2: over four years ago. The idea was really to kind
S2: of fundamentally rethink all the building blocks and then, of course,
S2: integrate AI deeply into the entire creation flow so that you,
S2: as someone that may not have design skills or resources,
S2: can work with gamma as if you have like an
S2: expert design partner sitting right next to you, helping you
S2: guide the entire creation flow along the way.
S1: Yeah, that makes sense. Are you seeing the whole AI
S1: thing kind of pushing a desire for this more? Um,
S1: or is it just that it's enabling the the product
S1: to be better? Like, um, what sort of trends are
S1: you seeing, like pushing in this direction?
S2: Yeah, definitely. I think for many people it's rewiring how they,
S2: you know, their relationship with technology. So in the past,
S2: when you go into a tool like PowerPoint or Google Slides,
S2: you as the creator need to do all the heavy lifting.
S2: You start with a blank slide, right? And you're going
S2: in and thinking about, you know, how do I create
S2: the right layout? How do I express my ideas the
S2: right way, such that the person on the receiving end
S2: has the best chance of understanding what's in my head? Um,
S2: and with gamma, we try to really help pave a
S2: much more, uh, fun and interesting path so that you're not, uh,
S2: you know, left to figure it out all on your own.
S2: We can present you a ton of different design options.
S2: We can help you craft a more compelling narrative story
S2: arc to your presentation. We can help find all the
S2: right assets to complement what you are trying to present.
S2: So whether that's text, images, uh, diagrams, visuals, um, all
S2: of that should really help you put your best foot
S2: forward without you having to boil the ocean to find
S2: the perfect visual. Um, so in that sense, you know,
S2: people can go in. It feels a lot more effortless
S2: to kind of create content. It feels a lot less
S2: daunting and in many cases, much more fun to go
S2: into a tool like gamma versus the incumbent tools.
S1: Yeah, that makes sense. So, um, I'm going to tell
S1: you what my workflow is, and I want to see how, uh,
S1: how close we can get there with, uh, the product.
S1: So the way I've been thinking about this, um, because
S1: I've done presentations for so long, uh, just having been
S1: in the industry for so long. Right. And I would
S1: say that I normally been kind of bad at it. Um,
S1: I'm getting better more recently because I'm focusing more on, like,
S1: the arc of the story. Right? Um, and I kind
S1: of use, uh, Ted as one of my pinnacles, um,
S1: because usually it's just like an image in the background,
S1: and the person is talking through the story. Right? And
S1: then the image is just like. And sometimes there's text
S1: on it, but mostly it's just like an image that's
S1: supporting it. So what I've taken to do now is
S1: essentially I, I just basically rant the whole thing, uh,
S1: describing the flow start to finish. What is the story
S1: that I want to tell? And what I've found is that, um,
S1: this works way better than starting with slides. If I
S1: start with slides, uh, either if I think of it's
S1: a cool template or I had a couple of slides.
S1: What I found is it's really it's almost impossible to
S1: break out of your slides 100%. And what you end
S1: up doing is you end up like trying to add
S1: a slide to work with the one that you already have.
S1: So you're like, well, what should go before it? What
S1: should come after it, right? When in fact we should
S1: be thinking nothing about slides whatsoever. Discard all of this.
S1: Get the flow and the story and like, almost like
S1: the script, even if you're not going to actually read it. Um,
S1: which most people don't. But get that working perfectly then
S1: make the slides. So, um, I think I saw in
S1: the product somewhere there was like a, a prompt area
S1: or something, right? Um, but is it possible to basically
S1: give either almost there or like a mostly there or
S1: even partially there arc and then say, you know, build
S1: this out and then I need this much supporting text
S1: and I need these types of graphics.
S2: Yes. Yes, definitely. So what you're describing, I think, is,
S2: is a very sort of natural way people would love
S2: to build, to craft their presentations as they could. And
S2: we do see a lot of users now kind of
S2: changing their workflow from maybe what they had done in
S2: the past. And so one is, yeah, maybe even going
S2: into a ChatGPT like tool where you can riff on,
S2: you know, that, that a little bit, you start with
S2: a it could be even just like you're recording and
S2: you're kind of you take the transcript, the initial more
S2: raw transcript than you use ChatGPT to refine it a
S2: little bit more, maybe ask it questions around, like, you know,
S2: what am I missing here? Or like, how could I
S2: make my story even more impactful or more engaging? Or
S2: how do I open with a stronger hook or a
S2: stronger opening? And then you get that to a good
S2: place you might have, like, now, you know, pretty big
S2: wall of text. You can copy and paste that the
S2: entire thing directly into gamma and then say, hey, you know,
S2: I'm trying to take this and create, you know, a
S2: ten slide deck that's much more visual, gives me a
S2: complimentary images and still allows me to hit my main points. And,
S2: and then gamma can do that for you. Um, you
S2: can also just, you know, take even the raw input
S2: like you had mentioned. Like maybe not. You can actually
S2: skip it altogether. You actually just go directly into gamma
S2: and say, hey, this is raw input. I need it
S2: to be made for keynote address. I'm presenting to, you know,
S2: some technical audience and how do I now take that.
S2: And so you can describe what you need. Gamma similarly
S2: can kind of walk you through it. That will get
S2: you kind of the first draft. And then we also
S2: now have the ability you can then continue to chat
S2: with AI to say, hey, okay, first draft is pretty good,
S2: but you know what? The theme we selected doesn't quite
S2: have the right look and feel. So why don't we
S2: go with something completely different? I actually want something a
S2: little bit more dark and minimalistic, minimalist, and you know,
S2: can you kind of choose something, uh, something else. And
S2: gamma can find you a different sort of vibe to
S2: go with. Then you might also say, hey, you know what? Um,
S2: there's this one slide. I really liked the layout of this.
S2: Let's just actually replace all the other supporting slides with
S2: the same layout, because this one is, like really effective and,
S2: and kind of, uh, you know, top to bottom, just
S2: completely revamped the, you know, the deck based on some input.
S2: You can similarly kind of upload screenshots or images or
S2: like other supporting information and say, actually, I need an
S2: additional slide on this. Can you now create, you know,
S2: keep the rest of the content? I want to now
S2: build on this because then now let's start riffing. And
S2: this is the analogy of like having like an expert
S2: design partner sitting next to you. It's as if you're
S2: you're a person sitting next to you is that expert
S2: presentation designer. And you're like, okay, this first draft is okay,
S2: but I want to keep riffing, tell me what you need,
S2: and we're going to get you to the right place.
S1: Yeah, yeah. That last piece, that's exactly what came to
S1: mind while you were finishing that. Um, yeah. So this
S1: is a big difference. This is a big difference. As
S1: opposed to like, okay, this is a website that you
S1: go to, and it's a website that is basically a
S1: presentation tool and you can type stuff in. It's a
S1: completely different thing to be like it's it's basically an agent.
S1: Gamma is a website agent that you talk to. And
S1: maybe with the analogy of like, um, started to be
S1: doing a product design and marketing with you, but um,
S1: but um, it's like, okay, if you are a super
S1: high level, uh, CEO or CTO or whatever, you generally
S1: have a presentation person, right? And this is a superpower
S1: that you have because they know things about you. They
S1: know the company. They're also design experts. Totally. So they're
S1: literally just looking at the screen as it gets updated
S1: and saying, no, more like this, less of this, more
S1: of that. Right. Yeah. Let's, um, let's text. They're actually
S1: we want this image to be a little more, you know,
S1: edgy or whatever. And then, uh, he or she is, like,
S1: doing the magic. And like, that is. That's really where
S1: we want to be at.
S2: Totally. Yeah. Most of us, to your point, do not
S2: have that person. Right. Like if you are an executive
S2: of a company, you might have one. You might actually
S2: have a team of people helping you with that. And like, uh,
S2: they are proactively both suggesting ideas, but it can also
S2: just really quickly close the feedback loop. If you have
S2: something you want to change or something just doesn't feel right,
S2: they can give you five more ideas and then you
S2: just keep riffing, right? And we yeah, dude, the average person,
S2: because they don't have that they get stuck in this very,
S2: you know, rudimentary stage of like slide creation. And we
S2: want to help uplevel everybody so that they have access
S2: to the exact same expertise that, that anybody might have
S2: if they are an executive of a much larger company.
S1: So what do you feel like you guys are doing
S1: better than, um, other people? Because I'm sure there's other
S1: people sort of moving in this direction. Um, what do
S1: you feel like you guys get that they don't, or
S1: the industry in general doesn't get about presentations.
S2: Yeah, there's a few things. I mean, for one, you know,
S2: this is our sole focus. I think there's a lot
S2: of tools out there that are trying to do many
S2: things all at once, and we're trying to do this
S2: one thing really great. And so deeply understanding customers pain
S2: points where we can really help them and go deep
S2: on that. And obviously, there's a ton of experimentation and
S2: working closely with those users to really kind of iterate
S2: a ton over time. So that's something, you know, we've
S2: been doing it for already four plus years. We intend
S2: to be doing it for a very, very long time.
S2: And and it's a space that we're, we're very passionate about. Um,
S2: the second thing is, you know, we are trying to
S2: acknowledge that, um, presentations as, as a format probably needs
S2: a bit of, uh, you know, rethinking or reimagining. I mentioned,
S2: you know, we, uh, started off in thinking about, okay,
S2: slides as a format have been around for almost 40 years,
S2: 16 by nine, sort of, you know, fixed an aspect ratio.
S2: Great for Or presenting. You know, when everyone's sitting in
S2: the same room staring at the same projector or projection
S2: screen or, um, you know, I need to print something
S2: on a piece of paper. But what that doesn't sort
S2: of acknowledge is like, a lot of what we are
S2: doing today is like either presenting over screen share or
S2: I want to send something to somebody and they are
S2: going to open it on their own phone. And so
S2: how do you create something that acknowledges where kind of
S2: work is already shifting and acknowledge or embrace all the
S2: sort of goodness that, you know, modern web technology already offers,
S2: the browser and everything else. And so, um, we want
S2: to be able to enable people not only just to
S2: create presentations, but create presentations of the future, which is
S2: mobile friendly by default, interactive, multimedia rich, easily shareable, all
S2: these things that we think modern tools should enable. And
S2: so gamma enables, you know, not just the creation of
S2: presentations but modern presentations. And with that, we also have
S2: a medium that's much more malleable. So if you are
S2: starting off with something that is intended to be more presentational.
S2: What if you also wanted to create an highly engaging
S2: document that can also be passed around as a proposal?
S2: Or what if you want to take the exact same
S2: content and use it for social media and have social
S2: assets that are really made for social sharing? Or what
S2: if you want to take the exact same content and
S2: create microsites, websites, things that are intended to be interactive? Um,
S2: and so we want, you know, all that to be
S2: in the same place so that a user doesn't need
S2: to learn ten different tools. They can use gamma. Gamma
S2: can help shape and mold that content into whatever format
S2: it needs to be. And you're off to the races.
S1: Okay. You're you're getting me excited here. Okay. So I'm
S1: pulling a layer back from presentations. It's about idea propagation. Totally.
S1: And then essentially, like the tool needs to figure out okay, um,
S1: what is the core idea. Does that have like a
S1: native presentation style that that suits it best. Right. Then
S1: it's like, okay, who is the presenter? Then it's like,
S1: who are the receivers of the presentation? And then what?
S1: Like to your point, what medium are they on? Is
S1: it zoom? Are they in the room? Is it a
S1: giant screen? Is it a tiny screen? Right. Is it
S1: a mobile? Uh, are they only on mobile? Right. And
S1: then all of those context pieces actually would change that,
S1: that that is super interesting. Um, you know, what I've
S1: been experimenting with and I think is really cool is, um,
S1: sometimes I think I've seen Dwarkesh do this a couple
S1: of times. Um, so he'll just be talking kind of
S1: like what we're going to do in this video here. Actually,
S1: you're already seeing in this video is, um, you'll just
S1: be talking and over the top of it, like an
S1: image or especially a video plays. Right? And it's just
S1: like this little clip. And it could just be like
S1: a weather pattern. We're talking about chaos. And you see
S1: like this weather pattern thing. Right? Right. And it's like, oh,
S1: somehow that little weather pattern thing, when Grant said Chaos.
S1: It just made it click that much more. Yeah, and
S1: it's like, I think that is really, really cool. Um, uh,
S1: are there any features now or any, um, things coming
S1: soon that are similar to that where it could be
S1: like maybe not necessarily a slide with text with an image,
S1: but more so. Okay. This just calls for an image
S1: by itself, and maybe it calls for an image with text,
S1: or maybe it calls for a short little video clip.
S2: Yeah, yeah. They're gonna there's gonna be much more of that,
S2: I think. Yeah. To your point around, you know, we're
S2: all visual beings and, uh, the ability to tie concepts
S2: ideas to something visual just makes it way easier to
S2: remember and also way easier to share and, you know, spread. Um,
S2: and so, yeah, we want to lean into, um, the
S2: ability to create all sorts of outputs. Video, audio will
S2: certainly be areas we continue to explore. Um, and then, uh, today,
S2: you know, a lot of our, uh, the content that
S2: comes out still is pretty, you know, can be text
S2: heavy or has like a text leaning. You know, aspect
S2: of it. We want to build to also embrace like
S2: just really visual cinematic content. And so we have a
S2: lot of cool stuff coming here in the near term,
S2: which will kind of unlock much more of that sort
S2: of creativity, where maybe it isn't a bunch of words,
S2: but it's actually just like this perfect visual that drives
S2: that point. About your point home. We want to be
S2: able to support that as well.
S1: Yeah. And what's cool about that is it all starts
S1: with the very first piece, which, um, is in the
S1: product now, which is what do you want to say?
S1: It starts with that hook and narrative and everything can
S1: build off of there. Um, what are the current sort of, um,
S1: graphical options, uh, that we have, like in terms of like, uh, doing,
S1: you know, animations or like, uh, picking a perfect, uh,
S1: graphic for a particular slide or whatever.
S2: Yeah, definitely. So we offer, you know, variety, like, you
S2: can have gamma go out and search the web for
S2: images for you if you're looking for beautiful stock images,
S2: you can have AI generate images for you. So we
S2: offer a variety of the top models out there so
S2: you can choose. Every model might have its signature sort of, uh,
S2: type of visual or aesthetic, and you can lean into
S2: the one that is most useful for the context of
S2: what you're presenting on. You can take that. You can,
S2: you know, continue to edit the AI, the image with AI.
S2: So removing backgrounds, replacing black backgrounds, adding text, uh, animating
S2: the image. So if you wanted to take a still
S2: image and just bring it to life, you can do
S2: all that in gamma. We have a variety of ways
S2: you can create things like layouts, visuals, diagrams. So you
S2: need something much more, uh, sort of intended to be like,
S2: you know, whether it's like an infographic or something just
S2: to help you kind of walk through something that could
S2: just be a, you know, set of bullet points. But
S2: how do you actually visualize that? We give you a
S2: variety of tools there. Um, so yeah, there's many different ways.
S2: I think we want to let the user kind of
S2: mold and shape their, their content in whatever ways is
S2: most compelling again for for their audience. And a lot
S2: of that can be both a combination of, um, you know,
S2: non AI tools like stock images as well as, you know,
S2: obviously leaning into AI generation as, as an additional way
S2: to kind of supercharge your content.
S1: Nice. And so what seems to be like the most popular, uh,
S1: feature or set of features? Uh, and what are your favorites?
S2: Yeah. I mean, a lot of it is, is bucketed
S2: into the AI generation workflow, right? So it's like, again,
S2: going back to like changing the way people approach content creation,
S2: their relationship with technology broadly. I think that's where people
S2: go in is like, wow, this is just fundamentally different
S2: than how I might start a presentation in PowerPoint. And
S2: so people love that it overcomes, you know, two big things.
S2: One is the cold start problem, like actually knowing even
S2: how to begin. And two is like people's inherent limitations
S2: when it comes to like their own creativity. They can
S2: imagine a lot of things, but to actually translate it
S2: into something that can be on a canvas, like a slide,
S2: is like nearly impossible for most people. And so we
S2: can kind of knock those two down right out the
S2: gate and give them something that, you know, that actually
S2: keeps them around and gives them, you know, the tools
S2: that they need to kind of get the job done.
S1: Nice. Uh, anything coming out immediately, soon that you're willing to, uh,
S1: talk about or announce or anything?
S2: Yeah. So we'll be doing, you know, today kind of
S2: the premise of gamma. Still, as an end user, you
S2: go in, you're still, you know, putting a lot of
S2: manual effort into creating the content. And of course, AI
S2: is there to assist you, but you're kind of nudging
S2: things along the way. And let's say, like you get
S2: to a point where you just love the the output,
S2: you love the slide deck. You want to like, like
S2: make this your own. We're going to enable much more
S2: sort of automated creation such that you have that one
S2: slide deck. Now you can crank out a hundred more
S2: just like it, but maybe personalize it for different audiences,
S2: different types of clients, different folks in different countries via
S2: our API. So we will allow you to integrate with Zapier.
S2: Make all of your favorite tools. Uh, keep keep a
S2: template that you love. Generate many more like it. Personalize
S2: that content, make that super easy and fast. And so
S2: I think a lot of people are going to be
S2: able to get even more value out of gamma by
S2: plugging in and leveraging your API.
S1: Okay, cool. That was my next question. What does this
S1: look like? Multiple releases from now, like two years from now,
S1: like or even further in the future? What ideally does
S1: propagating an idea look like with gamma?
S2: Yeah, I think there's a few different dimensions. Certainly I
S2: mentioned just the different amounts of like formats we want
S2: to be able to support. So you know, presentations has
S2: been our wedge. I think over time we'll be able
S2: to go in and you know, again not having to
S2: learn ten different tools. Like what if you can create
S2: all this content and it's all riffing off of your ideas, right.
S2: It's your concepts and we're just helping you shape it
S2: in many more ways. And then of course automating content
S2: creation so that when needed, you can just have way
S2: more leverage. So I think you're just going to see
S2: even more of that. And it's going to be across
S2: a lot of interesting formats that people can lean into,
S2: where historically, if they don't have video skills like that,
S2: feels too intimidating. What if we can offer much more
S2: of that? So we'll see some of that? Um, I
S2: think there's going to be, you know, today a lot.
S2: You know, the vast majority of our users are still, uh,
S2: individuals in small teams. And I think we're going to
S2: be able to see kind of, uh, gamma as a
S2: format start spreading internally into much larger organizations. So, um,
S2: a viable true alternative and replacement to like a PowerPoint
S2: and Google Slides, where, you know, if slides is currently
S2: sort of the language of business and how kind of
S2: big ideas and decisions get made internally. Um, we'll see
S2: a lot more shift to tools like gamma, where all
S2: of a sudden, you know, that's that's the starting point
S2: and the ending point for how people kind of, you know,
S2: share information internally. So, um, we're confident we're going to
S2: start seeing a lot more of that as well.
S1: Very cool. And where can people find out about the company?
S2: Yeah, the easiest way is just it's a freemium product.
S2: So come check it out. It's gamma dot app. Uh,
S2: you know, you can, um, jump on, start creating content.
S2: We give all new users, uh, free credits so they
S2: can play around with our AI. And then, yeah, if
S2: you're on LinkedIn or Twitter, come find me. Um, I'm
S2: just Grant Lee. I would love to get your feedback,
S2: your input, and hear what's working, what's not. We'd love
S2: to continue to iterate on the product.
S1: Awesome. Well, thanks a lot, Grant. Talk to you soon.
S2: Thanks so much for having me. Bye bye.
S1: Unsupervised learning is produced on Hindenburg Pro using an Sm7 microphone.
S1: A video version of the podcast is available on the
S1: Unsupervised Learning YouTube channel, and the text version with full
S1: links and notes is available at Daniel Comm Slash newsletter.
S1: We'll see you next time.