1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:05,000 S1: Unsupervised Learning is a podcast about trends and ideas in cybersecurity, 2 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:09,960 S1: national security, AI, technology and society, and how best to 3 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:17,720 S1: upgrade ourselves to be ready for what's coming. All right, 4 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:19,560 S1: welcome to unsupervised learning. 5 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:21,080 S2: Hey, thanks for having me. 6 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:25,200 S1: Cool. So, um, I've heard a lot about your product. 7 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:28,480 S1: I've seen a couple glimpses of it, um, in screenshots 8 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:31,360 S1: and people talking about it on social media. I think 9 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:34,360 S1: I might have messed around with it just slightly, a 10 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:36,840 S1: little bit a couple of times, but I really want 11 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:40,159 S1: to kind of move my whole workflow to kind of 12 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:43,199 S1: using it. Can you just give some background on yourself 13 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:45,640 S1: and what the what the product and company is? 14 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:50,000 S2: Yeah, definitely. So gamma is uh, you can think of 15 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:54,360 S2: it as building the anti PowerPoint. So slides as a format. 16 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:56,400 S2: I've been around for almost 40 years. We've all used 17 00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:59,320 S2: it since we were kids. Uh, require a ton of 18 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:04,750 S2: formatting designing, aligning of boxes. And we wanted to kind 19 00:01:04,750 --> 00:01:06,990 S2: of reimagine how people share and present their ideas from 20 00:01:06,990 --> 00:01:09,390 S2: the ground up. So we started again a little bit 21 00:01:09,390 --> 00:01:12,069 S2: over four years ago. The idea was really to kind 22 00:01:12,069 --> 00:01:15,230 S2: of fundamentally rethink all the building blocks and then, of course, 23 00:01:15,270 --> 00:01:19,150 S2: integrate AI deeply into the entire creation flow so that you, 24 00:01:19,190 --> 00:01:22,230 S2: as someone that may not have design skills or resources, 25 00:01:22,430 --> 00:01:24,350 S2: can work with gamma as if you have like an 26 00:01:24,350 --> 00:01:26,830 S2: expert design partner sitting right next to you, helping you 27 00:01:26,870 --> 00:01:29,589 S2: guide the entire creation flow along the way. 28 00:01:31,190 --> 00:01:35,029 S1: Yeah, that makes sense. Are you seeing the whole AI 29 00:01:35,069 --> 00:01:39,190 S1: thing kind of pushing a desire for this more? Um, 30 00:01:39,190 --> 00:01:41,990 S1: or is it just that it's enabling the the product 31 00:01:41,990 --> 00:01:44,950 S1: to be better? Like, um, what sort of trends are 32 00:01:44,950 --> 00:01:46,910 S1: you seeing, like pushing in this direction? 33 00:01:47,030 --> 00:01:51,510 S2: Yeah, definitely. I think for many people it's rewiring how they, 34 00:01:51,550 --> 00:01:54,750 S2: you know, their relationship with technology. So in the past, 35 00:01:54,750 --> 00:01:57,750 S2: when you go into a tool like PowerPoint or Google Slides, 36 00:01:57,910 --> 00:02:00,900 S2: you as the creator need to do all the heavy lifting. 37 00:02:00,900 --> 00:02:03,020 S2: You start with a blank slide, right? And you're going 38 00:02:03,020 --> 00:02:05,580 S2: in and thinking about, you know, how do I create 39 00:02:05,580 --> 00:02:08,060 S2: the right layout? How do I express my ideas the 40 00:02:08,060 --> 00:02:10,700 S2: right way, such that the person on the receiving end 41 00:02:10,740 --> 00:02:14,340 S2: has the best chance of understanding what's in my head? Um, 42 00:02:14,419 --> 00:02:17,820 S2: and with gamma, we try to really help pave a 43 00:02:17,820 --> 00:02:21,700 S2: much more, uh, fun and interesting path so that you're not, uh, 44 00:02:21,700 --> 00:02:23,660 S2: you know, left to figure it out all on your own. 45 00:02:23,700 --> 00:02:26,020 S2: We can present you a ton of different design options. 46 00:02:26,020 --> 00:02:29,500 S2: We can help you craft a more compelling narrative story 47 00:02:29,500 --> 00:02:32,180 S2: arc to your presentation. We can help find all the 48 00:02:32,180 --> 00:02:34,739 S2: right assets to complement what you are trying to present. 49 00:02:34,740 --> 00:02:39,860 S2: So whether that's text, images, uh, diagrams, visuals, um, all 50 00:02:39,860 --> 00:02:41,899 S2: of that should really help you put your best foot 51 00:02:41,900 --> 00:02:44,340 S2: forward without you having to boil the ocean to find 52 00:02:44,620 --> 00:02:47,780 S2: the perfect visual. Um, so in that sense, you know, 53 00:02:47,820 --> 00:02:50,380 S2: people can go in. It feels a lot more effortless 54 00:02:50,380 --> 00:02:52,340 S2: to kind of create content. It feels a lot less 55 00:02:52,380 --> 00:02:54,980 S2: daunting and in many cases, much more fun to go 56 00:02:54,980 --> 00:02:57,460 S2: into a tool like gamma versus the incumbent tools. 57 00:02:58,700 --> 00:03:02,210 S1: Yeah, that makes sense. So, um, I'm going to tell 58 00:03:02,210 --> 00:03:05,290 S1: you what my workflow is, and I want to see how, uh, 59 00:03:05,290 --> 00:03:07,850 S1: how close we can get there with, uh, the product. 60 00:03:08,210 --> 00:03:11,650 S1: So the way I've been thinking about this, um, because 61 00:03:11,650 --> 00:03:15,210 S1: I've done presentations for so long, uh, just having been 62 00:03:15,210 --> 00:03:17,570 S1: in the industry for so long. Right. And I would 63 00:03:17,570 --> 00:03:21,130 S1: say that I normally been kind of bad at it. Um, 64 00:03:21,130 --> 00:03:24,850 S1: I'm getting better more recently because I'm focusing more on, like, 65 00:03:24,889 --> 00:03:27,810 S1: the arc of the story. Right? Um, and I kind 66 00:03:27,810 --> 00:03:31,690 S1: of use, uh, Ted as one of my pinnacles, um, 67 00:03:31,730 --> 00:03:34,850 S1: because usually it's just like an image in the background, 68 00:03:35,210 --> 00:03:37,730 S1: and the person is talking through the story. Right? And 69 00:03:37,730 --> 00:03:40,610 S1: then the image is just like. And sometimes there's text 70 00:03:40,650 --> 00:03:42,570 S1: on it, but mostly it's just like an image that's 71 00:03:42,570 --> 00:03:47,050 S1: supporting it. So what I've taken to do now is 72 00:03:47,050 --> 00:03:52,250 S1: essentially I, I just basically rant the whole thing, uh, 73 00:03:52,250 --> 00:03:55,290 S1: describing the flow start to finish. What is the story 74 00:03:55,290 --> 00:03:59,000 S1: that I want to tell? And what I've found is that, um, 75 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:02,200 S1: this works way better than starting with slides. If I 76 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:05,760 S1: start with slides, uh, either if I think of it's 77 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:08,720 S1: a cool template or I had a couple of slides. 78 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:12,080 S1: What I found is it's really it's almost impossible to 79 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:15,680 S1: break out of your slides 100%. And what you end 80 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:18,560 S1: up doing is you end up like trying to add 81 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:21,400 S1: a slide to work with the one that you already have. 82 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:23,520 S1: So you're like, well, what should go before it? What 83 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:26,160 S1: should come after it, right? When in fact we should 84 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:31,760 S1: be thinking nothing about slides whatsoever. Discard all of this. 85 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:35,400 S1: Get the flow and the story and like, almost like 86 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:38,600 S1: the script, even if you're not going to actually read it. Um, 87 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:42,520 S1: which most people don't. But get that working perfectly then 88 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:46,360 S1: make the slides. So, um, I think I saw in 89 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:48,880 S1: the product somewhere there was like a, a prompt area 90 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:52,720 S1: or something, right? Um, but is it possible to basically 91 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:58,630 S1: give either almost there or like a mostly there or 92 00:04:58,630 --> 00:05:02,750 S1: even partially there arc and then say, you know, build 93 00:05:02,750 --> 00:05:05,630 S1: this out and then I need this much supporting text 94 00:05:05,630 --> 00:05:07,830 S1: and I need these types of graphics. 95 00:05:07,870 --> 00:05:10,950 S2: Yes. Yes, definitely. So what you're describing, I think, is, 96 00:05:10,990 --> 00:05:14,270 S2: is a very sort of natural way people would love 97 00:05:14,270 --> 00:05:16,830 S2: to build, to craft their presentations as they could. And 98 00:05:16,830 --> 00:05:18,630 S2: we do see a lot of users now kind of 99 00:05:18,670 --> 00:05:21,750 S2: changing their workflow from maybe what they had done in 100 00:05:21,750 --> 00:05:24,150 S2: the past. And so one is, yeah, maybe even going 101 00:05:24,190 --> 00:05:27,750 S2: into a ChatGPT like tool where you can riff on, 102 00:05:27,790 --> 00:05:29,830 S2: you know, that, that a little bit, you start with 103 00:05:29,870 --> 00:05:32,470 S2: a it could be even just like you're recording and 104 00:05:32,470 --> 00:05:34,870 S2: you're kind of you take the transcript, the initial more 105 00:05:34,910 --> 00:05:37,790 S2: raw transcript than you use ChatGPT to refine it a 106 00:05:37,790 --> 00:05:40,510 S2: little bit more, maybe ask it questions around, like, you know, 107 00:05:40,550 --> 00:05:42,150 S2: what am I missing here? Or like, how could I 108 00:05:42,150 --> 00:05:45,630 S2: make my story even more impactful or more engaging? Or 109 00:05:45,670 --> 00:05:47,710 S2: how do I open with a stronger hook or a 110 00:05:47,710 --> 00:05:49,790 S2: stronger opening? And then you get that to a good 111 00:05:49,790 --> 00:05:52,349 S2: place you might have, like, now, you know, pretty big 112 00:05:52,350 --> 00:05:54,909 S2: wall of text. You can copy and paste that the 113 00:05:54,910 --> 00:05:57,780 S2: entire thing directly into gamma and then say, hey, you know, 114 00:05:57,820 --> 00:06:00,580 S2: I'm trying to take this and create, you know, a 115 00:06:00,580 --> 00:06:04,140 S2: ten slide deck that's much more visual, gives me a 116 00:06:04,180 --> 00:06:08,940 S2: complimentary images and still allows me to hit my main points. And, 117 00:06:08,980 --> 00:06:11,340 S2: and then gamma can do that for you. Um, you 118 00:06:11,339 --> 00:06:13,820 S2: can also just, you know, take even the raw input 119 00:06:13,820 --> 00:06:16,739 S2: like you had mentioned. Like maybe not. You can actually 120 00:06:16,740 --> 00:06:19,660 S2: skip it altogether. You actually just go directly into gamma 121 00:06:19,740 --> 00:06:22,500 S2: and say, hey, this is raw input. I need it 122 00:06:22,500 --> 00:06:27,339 S2: to be made for keynote address. I'm presenting to, you know, 123 00:06:27,420 --> 00:06:30,020 S2: some technical audience and how do I now take that. 124 00:06:30,060 --> 00:06:32,460 S2: And so you can describe what you need. Gamma similarly 125 00:06:32,460 --> 00:06:34,220 S2: can kind of walk you through it. That will get 126 00:06:34,220 --> 00:06:36,260 S2: you kind of the first draft. And then we also 127 00:06:36,260 --> 00:06:38,300 S2: now have the ability you can then continue to chat 128 00:06:38,300 --> 00:06:41,300 S2: with AI to say, hey, okay, first draft is pretty good, 129 00:06:41,339 --> 00:06:44,860 S2: but you know what? The theme we selected doesn't quite 130 00:06:44,860 --> 00:06:46,740 S2: have the right look and feel. So why don't we 131 00:06:46,740 --> 00:06:48,620 S2: go with something completely different? I actually want something a 132 00:06:48,620 --> 00:06:51,940 S2: little bit more dark and minimalistic, minimalist, and you know, 133 00:06:51,980 --> 00:06:54,540 S2: can you kind of choose something, uh, something else. And 134 00:06:54,540 --> 00:06:56,609 S2: gamma can find you a different sort of vibe to 135 00:06:56,650 --> 00:06:59,450 S2: go with. Then you might also say, hey, you know what? Um, 136 00:06:59,450 --> 00:07:02,049 S2: there's this one slide. I really liked the layout of this. 137 00:07:02,410 --> 00:07:05,050 S2: Let's just actually replace all the other supporting slides with 138 00:07:05,050 --> 00:07:07,770 S2: the same layout, because this one is, like really effective and, 139 00:07:07,810 --> 00:07:09,890 S2: and kind of, uh, you know, top to bottom, just 140 00:07:10,090 --> 00:07:14,290 S2: completely revamped the, you know, the deck based on some input. 141 00:07:14,330 --> 00:07:17,450 S2: You can similarly kind of upload screenshots or images or 142 00:07:17,490 --> 00:07:20,170 S2: like other supporting information and say, actually, I need an 143 00:07:20,170 --> 00:07:23,370 S2: additional slide on this. Can you now create, you know, 144 00:07:23,770 --> 00:07:25,410 S2: keep the rest of the content? I want to now 145 00:07:25,410 --> 00:07:28,370 S2: build on this because then now let's start riffing. And 146 00:07:28,370 --> 00:07:30,210 S2: this is the analogy of like having like an expert 147 00:07:30,210 --> 00:07:32,730 S2: design partner sitting next to you. It's as if you're 148 00:07:32,730 --> 00:07:34,930 S2: you're a person sitting next to you is that expert 149 00:07:34,930 --> 00:07:37,970 S2: presentation designer. And you're like, okay, this first draft is okay, 150 00:07:37,970 --> 00:07:40,490 S2: but I want to keep riffing, tell me what you need, 151 00:07:40,530 --> 00:07:42,170 S2: and we're going to get you to the right place. 152 00:07:43,050 --> 00:07:47,090 S1: Yeah, yeah. That last piece, that's exactly what came to 153 00:07:47,130 --> 00:07:52,650 S1: mind while you were finishing that. Um, yeah. So this 154 00:07:52,650 --> 00:07:54,890 S1: is a big difference. This is a big difference. As 155 00:07:54,890 --> 00:07:57,520 S1: opposed to like, okay, this is a website that you 156 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:01,400 S1: go to, and it's a website that is basically a 157 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:04,880 S1: presentation tool and you can type stuff in. It's a 158 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:09,400 S1: completely different thing to be like it's it's basically an agent. 159 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:13,680 S1: Gamma is a website agent that you talk to. And 160 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:18,280 S1: maybe with the analogy of like, um, started to be 161 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:21,480 S1: doing a product design and marketing with you, but um, 162 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:25,800 S1: but um, it's like, okay, if you are a super 163 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:30,600 S1: high level, uh, CEO or CTO or whatever, you generally 164 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:34,240 S1: have a presentation person, right? And this is a superpower 165 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:38,080 S1: that you have because they know things about you. They 166 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:42,319 S1: know the company. They're also design experts. Totally. So they're 167 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:45,320 S1: literally just looking at the screen as it gets updated 168 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:48,520 S1: and saying, no, more like this, less of this, more 169 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:52,120 S1: of that. Right. Yeah. Let's, um, let's text. They're actually 170 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:55,040 S1: we want this image to be a little more, you know, 171 00:08:55,150 --> 00:08:58,790 S1: edgy or whatever. And then, uh, he or she is, like, 172 00:08:58,790 --> 00:09:02,949 S1: doing the magic. And like, that is. That's really where 173 00:09:02,950 --> 00:09:03,950 S1: we want to be at. 174 00:09:03,990 --> 00:09:06,069 S2: Totally. Yeah. Most of us, to your point, do not 175 00:09:06,070 --> 00:09:08,470 S2: have that person. Right. Like if you are an executive 176 00:09:08,470 --> 00:09:10,270 S2: of a company, you might have one. You might actually 177 00:09:10,309 --> 00:09:13,670 S2: have a team of people helping you with that. And like, uh, 178 00:09:13,670 --> 00:09:17,310 S2: they are proactively both suggesting ideas, but it can also 179 00:09:17,309 --> 00:09:19,710 S2: just really quickly close the feedback loop. If you have 180 00:09:19,710 --> 00:09:22,270 S2: something you want to change or something just doesn't feel right, 181 00:09:22,270 --> 00:09:24,429 S2: they can give you five more ideas and then you 182 00:09:24,429 --> 00:09:27,350 S2: just keep riffing, right? And we yeah, dude, the average person, 183 00:09:27,350 --> 00:09:30,670 S2: because they don't have that they get stuck in this very, 184 00:09:30,870 --> 00:09:34,750 S2: you know, rudimentary stage of like slide creation. And we 185 00:09:34,750 --> 00:09:37,270 S2: want to help uplevel everybody so that they have access 186 00:09:37,270 --> 00:09:40,670 S2: to the exact same expertise that, that anybody might have 187 00:09:40,710 --> 00:09:43,710 S2: if they are an executive of a much larger company. 188 00:09:44,350 --> 00:09:46,710 S1: So what do you feel like you guys are doing 189 00:09:46,710 --> 00:09:49,630 S1: better than, um, other people? Because I'm sure there's other 190 00:09:49,630 --> 00:09:52,949 S1: people sort of moving in this direction. Um, what do 191 00:09:52,950 --> 00:09:55,819 S1: you feel like you guys get that they don't, or 192 00:09:55,820 --> 00:09:58,579 S1: the industry in general doesn't get about presentations. 193 00:09:59,300 --> 00:10:01,620 S2: Yeah, there's a few things. I mean, for one, you know, 194 00:10:01,660 --> 00:10:03,699 S2: this is our sole focus. I think there's a lot 195 00:10:03,700 --> 00:10:05,260 S2: of tools out there that are trying to do many 196 00:10:05,260 --> 00:10:07,540 S2: things all at once, and we're trying to do this 197 00:10:07,540 --> 00:10:11,939 S2: one thing really great. And so deeply understanding customers pain 198 00:10:11,940 --> 00:10:14,260 S2: points where we can really help them and go deep 199 00:10:14,260 --> 00:10:18,500 S2: on that. And obviously, there's a ton of experimentation and 200 00:10:18,940 --> 00:10:21,580 S2: working closely with those users to really kind of iterate 201 00:10:21,580 --> 00:10:23,860 S2: a ton over time. So that's something, you know, we've 202 00:10:23,860 --> 00:10:25,939 S2: been doing it for already four plus years. We intend 203 00:10:25,940 --> 00:10:27,860 S2: to be doing it for a very, very long time. 204 00:10:28,059 --> 00:10:31,980 S2: And and it's a space that we're, we're very passionate about. Um, 205 00:10:32,020 --> 00:10:34,220 S2: the second thing is, you know, we are trying to 206 00:10:34,380 --> 00:10:38,500 S2: acknowledge that, um, presentations as, as a format probably needs 207 00:10:38,500 --> 00:10:41,780 S2: a bit of, uh, you know, rethinking or reimagining. I mentioned, 208 00:10:41,820 --> 00:10:46,380 S2: you know, we, uh, started off in thinking about, okay, 209 00:10:46,420 --> 00:10:48,819 S2: slides as a format have been around for almost 40 years, 210 00:10:48,820 --> 00:10:52,260 S2: 16 by nine, sort of, you know, fixed an aspect ratio. 211 00:10:52,260 --> 00:10:55,490 S2: Great for Or presenting. You know, when everyone's sitting in 212 00:10:55,490 --> 00:10:58,010 S2: the same room staring at the same projector or projection 213 00:10:58,010 --> 00:11:00,210 S2: screen or, um, you know, I need to print something 214 00:11:00,210 --> 00:11:02,689 S2: on a piece of paper. But what that doesn't sort 215 00:11:02,690 --> 00:11:04,610 S2: of acknowledge is like, a lot of what we are 216 00:11:04,610 --> 00:11:07,410 S2: doing today is like either presenting over screen share or 217 00:11:07,530 --> 00:11:09,330 S2: I want to send something to somebody and they are 218 00:11:09,330 --> 00:11:11,370 S2: going to open it on their own phone. And so 219 00:11:11,370 --> 00:11:14,250 S2: how do you create something that acknowledges where kind of 220 00:11:14,290 --> 00:11:18,370 S2: work is already shifting and acknowledge or embrace all the 221 00:11:18,410 --> 00:11:22,530 S2: sort of goodness that, you know, modern web technology already offers, 222 00:11:22,530 --> 00:11:25,250 S2: the browser and everything else. And so, um, we want 223 00:11:25,250 --> 00:11:27,570 S2: to be able to enable people not only just to 224 00:11:27,570 --> 00:11:31,650 S2: create presentations, but create presentations of the future, which is 225 00:11:31,650 --> 00:11:37,290 S2: mobile friendly by default, interactive, multimedia rich, easily shareable, all 226 00:11:37,290 --> 00:11:40,410 S2: these things that we think modern tools should enable. And 227 00:11:40,410 --> 00:11:43,290 S2: so gamma enables, you know, not just the creation of 228 00:11:43,290 --> 00:11:47,209 S2: presentations but modern presentations. And with that, we also have 229 00:11:47,250 --> 00:11:50,370 S2: a medium that's much more malleable. So if you are 230 00:11:50,370 --> 00:11:53,550 S2: starting off with something that is intended to be more presentational. 231 00:11:53,630 --> 00:11:56,429 S2: What if you also wanted to create an highly engaging 232 00:11:56,429 --> 00:11:58,829 S2: document that can also be passed around as a proposal? 233 00:11:58,830 --> 00:12:00,670 S2: Or what if you want to take the exact same 234 00:12:00,670 --> 00:12:03,670 S2: content and use it for social media and have social 235 00:12:03,670 --> 00:12:07,750 S2: assets that are really made for social sharing? Or what 236 00:12:07,750 --> 00:12:09,350 S2: if you want to take the exact same content and 237 00:12:09,350 --> 00:12:13,430 S2: create microsites, websites, things that are intended to be interactive? Um, 238 00:12:13,429 --> 00:12:15,510 S2: and so we want, you know, all that to be 239 00:12:15,670 --> 00:12:17,589 S2: in the same place so that a user doesn't need 240 00:12:17,590 --> 00:12:20,550 S2: to learn ten different tools. They can use gamma. Gamma 241 00:12:20,590 --> 00:12:23,350 S2: can help shape and mold that content into whatever format 242 00:12:23,350 --> 00:12:26,069 S2: it needs to be. And you're off to the races. 243 00:12:27,550 --> 00:12:33,270 S1: Okay. You're you're getting me excited here. Okay. So I'm 244 00:12:33,270 --> 00:12:38,470 S1: pulling a layer back from presentations. It's about idea propagation. Totally. 245 00:12:38,510 --> 00:12:42,950 S1: And then essentially, like the tool needs to figure out okay, um, 246 00:12:42,950 --> 00:12:45,910 S1: what is the core idea. Does that have like a 247 00:12:45,910 --> 00:12:49,870 S1: native presentation style that that suits it best. Right. Then 248 00:12:49,870 --> 00:12:53,420 S1: it's like, okay, who is the presenter? Then it's like, 249 00:12:53,420 --> 00:12:57,980 S1: who are the receivers of the presentation? And then what? 250 00:12:58,020 --> 00:13:00,460 S1: Like to your point, what medium are they on? Is 251 00:13:00,460 --> 00:13:02,220 S1: it zoom? Are they in the room? Is it a 252 00:13:02,220 --> 00:13:04,580 S1: giant screen? Is it a tiny screen? Right. Is it 253 00:13:04,580 --> 00:13:07,820 S1: a mobile? Uh, are they only on mobile? Right. And 254 00:13:07,820 --> 00:13:11,579 S1: then all of those context pieces actually would change that, 255 00:13:11,620 --> 00:13:14,580 S1: that that is super interesting. Um, you know, what I've 256 00:13:14,580 --> 00:13:18,020 S1: been experimenting with and I think is really cool is, um, 257 00:13:18,020 --> 00:13:21,620 S1: sometimes I think I've seen Dwarkesh do this a couple 258 00:13:21,660 --> 00:13:25,300 S1: of times. Um, so he'll just be talking kind of 259 00:13:25,300 --> 00:13:27,340 S1: like what we're going to do in this video here. Actually, 260 00:13:27,340 --> 00:13:31,939 S1: you're already seeing in this video is, um, you'll just 261 00:13:31,940 --> 00:13:34,620 S1: be talking and over the top of it, like an 262 00:13:34,620 --> 00:13:38,460 S1: image or especially a video plays. Right? And it's just 263 00:13:38,460 --> 00:13:41,260 S1: like this little clip. And it could just be like 264 00:13:41,260 --> 00:13:43,700 S1: a weather pattern. We're talking about chaos. And you see 265 00:13:43,740 --> 00:13:47,980 S1: like this weather pattern thing. Right? Right. And it's like, oh, 266 00:13:48,020 --> 00:13:52,010 S1: somehow that little weather pattern thing, when Grant said Chaos. 267 00:13:52,050 --> 00:13:55,730 S1: It just made it click that much more. Yeah, and 268 00:13:55,730 --> 00:14:00,330 S1: it's like, I think that is really, really cool. Um, uh, 269 00:14:00,370 --> 00:14:03,490 S1: are there any features now or any, um, things coming 270 00:14:03,490 --> 00:14:05,290 S1: soon that are similar to that where it could be 271 00:14:05,290 --> 00:14:10,050 S1: like maybe not necessarily a slide with text with an image, 272 00:14:10,090 --> 00:14:12,850 S1: but more so. Okay. This just calls for an image 273 00:14:12,850 --> 00:14:15,970 S1: by itself, and maybe it calls for an image with text, 274 00:14:15,970 --> 00:14:18,890 S1: or maybe it calls for a short little video clip. 275 00:14:19,410 --> 00:14:22,090 S2: Yeah, yeah. They're gonna there's gonna be much more of that, 276 00:14:22,090 --> 00:14:24,250 S2: I think. Yeah. To your point around, you know, we're 277 00:14:24,250 --> 00:14:28,450 S2: all visual beings and, uh, the ability to tie concepts 278 00:14:28,450 --> 00:14:31,250 S2: ideas to something visual just makes it way easier to 279 00:14:31,250 --> 00:14:35,530 S2: remember and also way easier to share and, you know, spread. Um, 280 00:14:35,570 --> 00:14:37,810 S2: and so, yeah, we want to lean into, um, the 281 00:14:37,810 --> 00:14:42,050 S2: ability to create all sorts of outputs. Video, audio will 282 00:14:42,050 --> 00:14:46,730 S2: certainly be areas we continue to explore. Um, and then, uh, today, 283 00:14:46,770 --> 00:14:49,410 S2: you know, a lot of our, uh, the content that 284 00:14:49,410 --> 00:14:52,000 S2: comes out still is pretty, you know, can be text 285 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:55,240 S2: heavy or has like a text leaning. You know, aspect 286 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:57,360 S2: of it. We want to build to also embrace like 287 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:00,840 S2: just really visual cinematic content. And so we have a 288 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:03,320 S2: lot of cool stuff coming here in the near term, 289 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:05,520 S2: which will kind of unlock much more of that sort 290 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:08,160 S2: of creativity, where maybe it isn't a bunch of words, 291 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:11,280 S2: but it's actually just like this perfect visual that drives 292 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:14,240 S2: that point. About your point home. We want to be 293 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:15,360 S2: able to support that as well. 294 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:19,120 S1: Yeah. And what's cool about that is it all starts 295 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:22,360 S1: with the very first piece, which, um, is in the 296 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:24,440 S1: product now, which is what do you want to say? 297 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:27,360 S1: It starts with that hook and narrative and everything can 298 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:31,520 S1: build off of there. Um, what are the current sort of, um, 299 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:37,160 S1: graphical options, uh, that we have, like in terms of like, uh, doing, 300 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:41,240 S1: you know, animations or like, uh, picking a perfect, uh, 301 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:43,400 S1: graphic for a particular slide or whatever. 302 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:46,160 S2: Yeah, definitely. So we offer, you know, variety, like, you 303 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:48,120 S2: can have gamma go out and search the web for 304 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:51,550 S2: images for you if you're looking for beautiful stock images, 305 00:15:51,550 --> 00:15:55,190 S2: you can have AI generate images for you. So we 306 00:15:55,190 --> 00:15:58,070 S2: offer a variety of the top models out there so 307 00:15:58,070 --> 00:16:02,310 S2: you can choose. Every model might have its signature sort of, uh, 308 00:16:02,670 --> 00:16:04,950 S2: type of visual or aesthetic, and you can lean into 309 00:16:04,950 --> 00:16:07,070 S2: the one that is most useful for the context of 310 00:16:07,070 --> 00:16:09,710 S2: what you're presenting on. You can take that. You can, 311 00:16:09,750 --> 00:16:13,110 S2: you know, continue to edit the AI, the image with AI. 312 00:16:13,150 --> 00:16:18,510 S2: So removing backgrounds, replacing black backgrounds, adding text, uh, animating 313 00:16:18,510 --> 00:16:20,390 S2: the image. So if you wanted to take a still 314 00:16:20,390 --> 00:16:22,470 S2: image and just bring it to life, you can do 315 00:16:22,470 --> 00:16:25,310 S2: all that in gamma. We have a variety of ways 316 00:16:25,310 --> 00:16:29,790 S2: you can create things like layouts, visuals, diagrams. So you 317 00:16:29,830 --> 00:16:33,070 S2: need something much more, uh, sort of intended to be like, 318 00:16:33,110 --> 00:16:35,110 S2: you know, whether it's like an infographic or something just 319 00:16:35,110 --> 00:16:38,150 S2: to help you kind of walk through something that could 320 00:16:38,150 --> 00:16:39,710 S2: just be a, you know, set of bullet points. But 321 00:16:39,710 --> 00:16:41,750 S2: how do you actually visualize that? We give you a 322 00:16:41,750 --> 00:16:44,710 S2: variety of tools there. Um, so yeah, there's many different ways. 323 00:16:44,710 --> 00:16:46,590 S2: I think we want to let the user kind of 324 00:16:46,630 --> 00:16:49,230 S2: mold and shape their, their content in whatever ways is 325 00:16:49,230 --> 00:16:52,060 S2: most compelling again for for their audience. And a lot 326 00:16:52,060 --> 00:16:55,220 S2: of that can be both a combination of, um, you know, 327 00:16:55,260 --> 00:16:57,940 S2: non AI tools like stock images as well as, you know, 328 00:16:57,980 --> 00:17:01,540 S2: obviously leaning into AI generation as, as an additional way 329 00:17:01,540 --> 00:17:03,340 S2: to kind of supercharge your content. 330 00:17:04,380 --> 00:17:08,379 S1: Nice. And so what seems to be like the most popular, uh, 331 00:17:08,380 --> 00:17:11,740 S1: feature or set of features? Uh, and what are your favorites? 332 00:17:12,060 --> 00:17:15,620 S2: Yeah. I mean, a lot of it is, is bucketed 333 00:17:15,619 --> 00:17:20,580 S2: into the AI generation workflow, right? So it's like, again, 334 00:17:20,580 --> 00:17:24,740 S2: going back to like changing the way people approach content creation, 335 00:17:24,740 --> 00:17:27,940 S2: their relationship with technology broadly. I think that's where people 336 00:17:27,940 --> 00:17:30,580 S2: go in is like, wow, this is just fundamentally different 337 00:17:31,060 --> 00:17:34,300 S2: than how I might start a presentation in PowerPoint. And 338 00:17:34,300 --> 00:17:38,820 S2: so people love that it overcomes, you know, two big things. 339 00:17:38,820 --> 00:17:41,420 S2: One is the cold start problem, like actually knowing even 340 00:17:41,420 --> 00:17:45,139 S2: how to begin. And two is like people's inherent limitations 341 00:17:45,140 --> 00:17:47,780 S2: when it comes to like their own creativity. They can 342 00:17:47,780 --> 00:17:50,649 S2: imagine a lot of things, but to actually translate it 343 00:17:50,650 --> 00:17:52,810 S2: into something that can be on a canvas, like a slide, 344 00:17:52,810 --> 00:17:55,810 S2: is like nearly impossible for most people. And so we 345 00:17:55,810 --> 00:17:57,649 S2: can kind of knock those two down right out the 346 00:17:57,650 --> 00:18:00,369 S2: gate and give them something that, you know, that actually 347 00:18:00,369 --> 00:18:02,730 S2: keeps them around and gives them, you know, the tools 348 00:18:02,730 --> 00:18:04,770 S2: that they need to kind of get the job done. 349 00:18:06,050 --> 00:18:10,770 S1: Nice. Uh, anything coming out immediately, soon that you're willing to, uh, 350 00:18:10,770 --> 00:18:12,570 S1: talk about or announce or anything? 351 00:18:12,609 --> 00:18:15,369 S2: Yeah. So we'll be doing, you know, today kind of 352 00:18:15,410 --> 00:18:17,530 S2: the premise of gamma. Still, as an end user, you 353 00:18:17,530 --> 00:18:20,010 S2: go in, you're still, you know, putting a lot of 354 00:18:20,010 --> 00:18:23,090 S2: manual effort into creating the content. And of course, AI 355 00:18:23,130 --> 00:18:25,490 S2: is there to assist you, but you're kind of nudging 356 00:18:25,490 --> 00:18:27,850 S2: things along the way. And let's say, like you get 357 00:18:27,850 --> 00:18:29,929 S2: to a point where you just love the the output, 358 00:18:29,930 --> 00:18:32,969 S2: you love the slide deck. You want to like, like 359 00:18:33,010 --> 00:18:36,730 S2: make this your own. We're going to enable much more 360 00:18:36,770 --> 00:18:38,890 S2: sort of automated creation such that you have that one 361 00:18:38,890 --> 00:18:40,970 S2: slide deck. Now you can crank out a hundred more 362 00:18:40,970 --> 00:18:43,850 S2: just like it, but maybe personalize it for different audiences, 363 00:18:43,850 --> 00:18:47,890 S2: different types of clients, different folks in different countries via 364 00:18:47,890 --> 00:18:51,960 S2: our API. So we will allow you to integrate with Zapier. 365 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:55,439 S2: Make all of your favorite tools. Uh, keep keep a 366 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:58,920 S2: template that you love. Generate many more like it. Personalize 367 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:02,119 S2: that content, make that super easy and fast. And so 368 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:03,240 S2: I think a lot of people are going to be 369 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:05,840 S2: able to get even more value out of gamma by 370 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:07,720 S2: plugging in and leveraging your API. 371 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:11,440 S1: Okay, cool. That was my next question. What does this 372 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:15,000 S1: look like? Multiple releases from now, like two years from now, 373 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:19,199 S1: like or even further in the future? What ideally does 374 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:22,720 S1: propagating an idea look like with gamma? 375 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:26,159 S2: Yeah, I think there's a few different dimensions. Certainly I 376 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:29,320 S2: mentioned just the different amounts of like formats we want 377 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:32,080 S2: to be able to support. So you know, presentations has 378 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:35,040 S2: been our wedge. I think over time we'll be able 379 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:37,199 S2: to go in and you know, again not having to 380 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:39,000 S2: learn ten different tools. Like what if you can create 381 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:42,240 S2: all this content and it's all riffing off of your ideas, right. 382 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:44,800 S2: It's your concepts and we're just helping you shape it 383 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:48,430 S2: in many more ways. And then of course automating content 384 00:19:48,430 --> 00:19:52,070 S2: creation so that when needed, you can just have way 385 00:19:52,070 --> 00:19:54,109 S2: more leverage. So I think you're just going to see 386 00:19:54,150 --> 00:19:55,669 S2: even more of that. And it's going to be across 387 00:19:55,670 --> 00:19:58,070 S2: a lot of interesting formats that people can lean into, 388 00:19:58,070 --> 00:20:01,590 S2: where historically, if they don't have video skills like that, 389 00:20:01,590 --> 00:20:04,390 S2: feels too intimidating. What if we can offer much more 390 00:20:04,390 --> 00:20:07,109 S2: of that? So we'll see some of that? Um, I 391 00:20:07,109 --> 00:20:09,870 S2: think there's going to be, you know, today a lot. 392 00:20:09,910 --> 00:20:12,670 S2: You know, the vast majority of our users are still, uh, 393 00:20:12,670 --> 00:20:14,909 S2: individuals in small teams. And I think we're going to 394 00:20:14,910 --> 00:20:17,350 S2: be able to see kind of, uh, gamma as a 395 00:20:17,350 --> 00:20:21,790 S2: format start spreading internally into much larger organizations. So, um, 396 00:20:21,830 --> 00:20:25,070 S2: a viable true alternative and replacement to like a PowerPoint 397 00:20:25,070 --> 00:20:28,190 S2: and Google Slides, where, you know, if slides is currently 398 00:20:28,230 --> 00:20:30,109 S2: sort of the language of business and how kind of 399 00:20:30,150 --> 00:20:33,910 S2: big ideas and decisions get made internally. Um, we'll see 400 00:20:33,910 --> 00:20:36,550 S2: a lot more shift to tools like gamma, where all 401 00:20:36,550 --> 00:20:38,629 S2: of a sudden, you know, that's that's the starting point 402 00:20:38,630 --> 00:20:41,189 S2: and the ending point for how people kind of, you know, 403 00:20:41,230 --> 00:20:44,629 S2: share information internally. So, um, we're confident we're going to 404 00:20:44,630 --> 00:20:45,950 S2: start seeing a lot more of that as well. 405 00:20:47,220 --> 00:20:50,619 S1: Very cool. And where can people find out about the company? 406 00:20:50,940 --> 00:20:54,419 S2: Yeah, the easiest way is just it's a freemium product. 407 00:20:54,420 --> 00:20:57,220 S2: So come check it out. It's gamma dot app. Uh, 408 00:20:57,340 --> 00:21:00,620 S2: you know, you can, um, jump on, start creating content. 409 00:21:00,619 --> 00:21:03,420 S2: We give all new users, uh, free credits so they 410 00:21:03,420 --> 00:21:05,780 S2: can play around with our AI. And then, yeah, if 411 00:21:05,780 --> 00:21:08,740 S2: you're on LinkedIn or Twitter, come find me. Um, I'm 412 00:21:08,740 --> 00:21:11,340 S2: just Grant Lee. I would love to get your feedback, 413 00:21:11,380 --> 00:21:14,260 S2: your input, and hear what's working, what's not. We'd love 414 00:21:14,260 --> 00:21:15,740 S2: to continue to iterate on the product. 415 00:21:16,660 --> 00:21:19,340 S1: Awesome. Well, thanks a lot, Grant. Talk to you soon. 416 00:21:19,380 --> 00:21:21,980 S2: Thanks so much for having me. Bye bye. 417 00:21:23,660 --> 00:21:28,460 S1: Unsupervised learning is produced on Hindenburg Pro using an Sm7 microphone. 418 00:21:29,300 --> 00:21:31,580 S1: A video version of the podcast is available on the 419 00:21:31,580 --> 00:21:35,300 S1: Unsupervised Learning YouTube channel, and the text version with full 420 00:21:35,300 --> 00:21:40,020 S1: links and notes is available at Daniel Comm Slash newsletter. 421 00:21:40,660 --> 00:21:41,619 S1: We'll see you next time.