WEBVTT - Andrew Ringlein's 5 Crypto Accelerators in Gaming and Business 0:00:38.978 --> 0:00:41.348 In this standalone episode, I'm talking to my great friend, 0:00:41.348 --> 0:00:44.408 Andrew Ringlein. So Andrew and I have known each other 0:00:44.408 --> 0:00:47.198 since junior high, and he is one of the absolute 0:00:47.198 --> 0:00:50.698 smartest people I know. But somehow, he's managed to keep 0:00:50.698 --> 0:00:53.788 a low profile until now. And I think this conversation 0:00:53.788 --> 0:00:57.238 will be the first part of changing that. So Andrew 0:00:57.248 --> 0:00:59.258 is working in the crypto space and we go on 0:00:59.258 --> 0:01:02.228 regular walks around the local lake and we talk about 0:01:02.228 --> 0:01:05.438 work in tech and life and whatever. And we just 0:01:05.438 --> 0:01:07.748 had one of these walks last week where I asked 0:01:07.748 --> 0:01:11.138 him a simple question What does he see as the 0:01:11.138 --> 0:01:15.648 intersection of gaming and crypto? Andrew is a lifelong gamer 0:01:15.918 --> 0:01:17.908 and he is active in the crypto space as well. 0:01:17.928 --> 0:01:20.658 So the resulting hour long conversation was something I just 0:01:20.658 --> 0:01:23.568 knew I had to record, and that is what this 0:01:23.568 --> 0:01:27.798 conversation is. So with that, here's Andrew Ringland on crypto 0:01:28.008 --> 0:01:33.418 gaming and business. So, Andrew, good to see you. We 0:01:33.418 --> 0:01:36.748 had this amazing conversation walking around the lake the whole 0:01:36.748 --> 0:01:38.848 time I was walking. My phone was in my pocket 0:01:38.848 --> 0:01:41.488 and I was worried that if I tried to record it, 0:01:41.488 --> 0:01:43.588 it would just sound like crap. But the whole time 0:01:43.588 --> 0:01:46.198 we were talking, I was like, Damn, I really wish 0:01:46.198 --> 0:01:47.848 I was recording this because I feel like we're going 0:01:47.848 --> 0:01:51.328 to forget everything. And then we basically said, OK, we 0:01:51.328 --> 0:01:54.058 just need to do this again on a podcast. So 0:01:54.058 --> 0:01:56.218 we're going to do our best to reproduce that, and 0:01:56.218 --> 0:01:59.368 it'll probably be a little kludgy, but we'll make an attempt. 0:02:00.208 --> 0:02:01.768 So thanks for having me. 0:02:01.948 --> 0:02:06.778 Yeah, absolutely. So I'll give a proper intro to you 0:02:06.778 --> 0:02:09.418 before this, so we'll just jump right into the conversation. 0:02:09.538 --> 0:02:13.468 And I think the question that I asked was basically, 0:02:13.468 --> 0:02:17.188 how did you see crypto interacting with gaming? They understand 0:02:17.188 --> 0:02:19.108 you have a leader in question as well. I guess 0:02:19.108 --> 0:02:20.578 we can do both list of yours first. 0:02:21.118 --> 0:02:24.418 Well, mine is very similar to yours. You had said 0:02:24.418 --> 0:02:26.338 something like, how do you see this? But but you 0:02:26.338 --> 0:02:29.578 also basically said, why? Right? Like, why? Like, why? Why 0:02:29.578 --> 0:02:32.758 does it matter? And I don't have it. In my view, 0:02:32.758 --> 0:02:36.968 the question which is three years ago, I work in 0:02:36.968 --> 0:02:40.018 a company and we launched a rewards currency inside an app, 0:02:40.738 --> 0:02:43.468 and a number of salespeople hit the up and said, Hey, listen. 0:02:43.768 --> 0:02:46.348 Turn your reward currency to blockchain and cryptocurrency, and I 0:02:46.348 --> 0:02:47.488 came to you and I talk to you about it. 0:02:47.758 --> 0:02:49.738 And I said, Is there anything here? I'm missing? Is 0:02:49.738 --> 0:02:52.198 there any reason this should be decentralized? And I got 0:02:52.198 --> 0:02:54.628 on the phone with three different sales reps and had 0:02:54.628 --> 0:02:55.978 them describe to me what they would do. They would 0:02:55.978 --> 0:02:58.648 they would give us money. They would years. And I 0:02:58.648 --> 0:03:01.288 kept asking the question of why, like, why should we 0:03:01.288 --> 0:03:04.538 change our reworked currency to crypto? And I did not 0:03:04.538 --> 0:03:07.028 get an answer that was anything other than it'll stick 0:03:07.028 --> 0:03:09.428 the word blockchain next to your company and you'll be 0:03:09.428 --> 0:03:12.008 caught right? There was nothing that some gave and I 0:03:12.218 --> 0:03:14.138 talked to three sales reps who were trying to convince 0:03:14.138 --> 0:03:17.258 me to use their blockchain. And I said, why? And 0:03:17.258 --> 0:03:19.178 I got no answer. And I kind of feel like 0:03:19.178 --> 0:03:21.968 the world is asking why. And at the wake, I 0:03:21.968 --> 0:03:23.648 think you also kind of said to me, you said, why? 0:03:23.858 --> 0:03:25.988 Like why? Why does it matter? And I didn't have 0:03:25.988 --> 0:03:27.248 an answer for years ago. No one else had an 0:03:27.248 --> 0:03:29.798 answer for years ago. And I think now now the 0:03:29.798 --> 0:03:31.538 answers are starting to emerge that the wider story. 0:03:32.968 --> 0:03:35.038 OK. And so what is the answer? 0:03:36.508 --> 0:03:38.638 Well, so the answer is, is a longer one because 0:03:38.638 --> 0:03:42.208 there's actually a bunch of lies. And I'd say that 0:03:42.208 --> 0:03:44.638 the first one is kind of the simplest to talk about, 0:03:44.638 --> 0:03:48.808 which is the the change to the financial model in 0:03:48.808 --> 0:03:52.738 crypto and crypto gaming. If we look back at gaming 0:03:52.888 --> 0:03:55.948 and we talk about the evolution from the very early 0:03:55.948 --> 0:03:58.708 days of pay to play into free to play, that 0:03:58.708 --> 0:04:00.968 was a really big revolution that people were very resistant to. 0:04:01.048 --> 0:04:04.108 And people said why? And people said, that's terrible, right? 0:04:05.248 --> 0:04:07.278 But then it got proven that it's actually a better model, 0:04:07.288 --> 0:04:09.058 and one of the reasons that free to play is 0:04:09.058 --> 0:04:11.608 a better model and pay to play is you're only 0:04:11.608 --> 0:04:14.068 paying for what you want, right? As a consumer, I 0:04:14.068 --> 0:04:16.108 can go and I can play 20 games, not pay 0:04:16.108 --> 0:04:18.568 anything fine one game I like and I can spend 0:04:18.568 --> 0:04:20.638 all my money on that one game that makes left 0:04:20.638 --> 0:04:22.378 the cream right at the top. It means that the 0:04:22.378 --> 0:04:24.028 game that is successful can make a lot more money 0:04:24.028 --> 0:04:25.468 than the games that are not successful. 0:04:26.788 --> 0:04:30.058 So basically, there's more experiments because there are more people 0:04:30.058 --> 0:04:30.808 playing more games. 0:04:31.708 --> 0:04:33.748 Well, it does allow for more experience because it also 0:04:33.748 --> 0:04:36.408 allows free to play, makes it easier to try to 0:04:36.408 --> 0:04:38.968 go market something, changes the marketing and changes the monetization. 0:04:39.358 --> 0:04:40.798 Because now I can go get a user to try 0:04:40.858 --> 0:04:43.168 and be a lot more easily convincing someone to spend 0:04:43.168 --> 0:04:45.448 three dollars. It's hard convincing someone to look at a 0:04:45.448 --> 0:04:48.148 button is easy. So it's very easy to innovate and 0:04:48.508 --> 0:04:51.688 experiment and try to find something that can be good. 0:04:51.958 --> 0:04:53.368 And then all the money is being spent on the 0:04:53.368 --> 0:04:57.058 ones that are good. And so all of gaming, I mean, 0:04:57.058 --> 0:04:58.708 not quite all of it, but the vast majority of 0:04:58.768 --> 0:05:01.638 money in gaming has moved to free to play. Can 0:05:01.648 --> 0:05:05.458 you go back 10 years? And it's a very toxic idea. 0:05:05.458 --> 0:05:07.168 If people didn't like it, it's like, Oh, this is 0:05:07.168 --> 0:05:10.378 just a cash grab. Right? But now you look at, 0:05:10.408 --> 0:05:12.388 you know, the largest games are already looking at like 0:05:12.388 --> 0:05:14.668 Fortnite and look at League of Legends, and they're free 0:05:14.668 --> 0:05:14.998 to play 0:05:15.958 --> 0:05:18.528 anywhere because everyone's saying that about crypto, that it's a 0:05:18.538 --> 0:05:19.288 giant cash grab. 0:05:19.808 --> 0:05:22.168 Right? It's the exact same thing. And so the evolution 0:05:22.168 --> 0:05:24.688 from pay to play to free to play was an 0:05:24.688 --> 0:05:29.438 evolution that that aligned the financial incentives better and play 0:05:29.458 --> 0:05:32.578 to earn. And crypto gaming actually does that again. And 0:05:32.578 --> 0:05:34.168 it does that probably a little bit more than free 0:05:34.168 --> 0:05:37.378 to play it, and it's catching on much, much faster 0:05:37.708 --> 0:05:41.008 than free to play there because the difference is greater, right? 0:05:41.018 --> 0:05:42.568 Free to play. Let's just say free to play is 0:05:42.838 --> 0:05:45.898 twice as good of a model. Well played earns probably 0:05:45.898 --> 0:05:47.578 like four times as good of a model so that 0:05:47.578 --> 0:05:48.838 the speed of adoption is even faster. 0:05:48.988 --> 0:05:51.298 OK, so play to earn you think is the next 0:05:51.658 --> 0:05:54.028 iteration past free to play? 0:05:54.718 --> 0:05:56.758 Yeah, from a from a financial model standpoint, yeah, 0:05:56.908 --> 0:05:59.428 I think so. Finance model. So financial model is one 0:05:59.428 --> 0:06:02.088 axis and then you have other things like UGC, how 0:06:02.098 --> 0:06:03.238 does that play into this? 0:06:04.078 --> 0:06:06.778 Yeah. So so I think there's actually like five different 0:06:06.778 --> 0:06:10.558 things that for crypto gaming are kind of multiplying its 0:06:10.558 --> 0:06:14.128 speed of adoption and its importance. And if we just 0:06:14.128 --> 0:06:16.648 go backwards for one second, just talk about like what's 0:06:16.648 --> 0:06:22.198 happened recently. Just so people can understand implications. What's happened 0:06:22.198 --> 0:06:26.908 recently is back in July, a single game went and 0:06:26.908 --> 0:06:29.158 launched their play to earn component, and this game was 0:06:29.158 --> 0:06:34.498 called exclusivity. And this game company is worth about $14 0:06:34.498 --> 0:06:39.298 billion today and fourteen billion dollars devoid of caps. It's 0:06:39.298 --> 0:06:42.928 not worth that, but that's sort of what's worst blizzard, 0:06:43.078 --> 0:06:49.648 which is the preeminent preeminent IP, most significant third third 0:06:49.648 --> 0:06:51.928 largest gaming company in the world and the single largest 0:06:51.928 --> 0:06:55.438 acquisition ever in U.S. history, which it acquired because of blockchain. 0:06:56.128 --> 0:06:58.738 Why did that happen? It happened because of Axiom. Infinity 0:06:58.738 --> 0:07:01.288 came out of nowhere and is suddenly on everyone's radar. 0:07:01.528 --> 0:07:04.978 And after Axie Infinity sort of showed a superior financial model, 0:07:05.248 --> 0:07:06.868 five of our games came along and did the exact 0:07:06.868 --> 0:07:10.288 same thing. And so when a when a Yahoo like 0:07:10.288 --> 0:07:12.928 me can make a phone call and suddenly talk to 0:07:12.928 --> 0:07:15.538 a CEO who has got a billion dollar company because 0:07:15.538 --> 0:07:21.878 he did something three months earlier? It's bizarre, it's accelerated 0:07:21.878 --> 0:07:24.638 the speed of these game companies growth. So every game 0:07:24.638 --> 0:07:26.378 company is now thinking, OK, what do I do that 0:07:26.378 --> 0:07:28.598 is this new model? It's much, much faster than the 0:07:28.598 --> 0:07:32.258 free to play option. It's what drove the Microsoft user acquisition. 0:07:32.528 --> 0:07:36.308 It's also what drove Facebook renaming itself. So the financial 0:07:36.308 --> 0:07:39.128 implications of this in the gaming world are being seen 0:07:39.128 --> 0:07:41.768 by these other companies. And they're all trying to rapidly 0:07:41.768 --> 0:07:43.658 move as fast as they can to adopt it. And 0:07:43.658 --> 0:07:45.858 that's just the sort of the proof behind that, that 0:07:45.878 --> 0:07:46.418 first change. 0:07:46.928 --> 0:07:51.118 So that first change, are we talking strictly about? Quickly 0:07:51.118 --> 0:07:52.768 being able to raise money for a new idea. 0:07:54.438 --> 0:07:56.298 That that is one of the implications, I think, inside 0:07:56.298 --> 0:07:59.388 of that, that model change because basically a new game 0:07:59.388 --> 0:08:02.238 has capacity to earn more money more quickly. It's the 0:08:02.238 --> 0:08:04.158 same thing as like a free to play acceleration, right? 0:08:04.398 --> 0:08:06.498 A free to play game for more users work quickly. 0:08:06.768 --> 0:08:09.348 These are not trying to get them to pay money, 0:08:09.588 --> 0:08:11.388 for instance, that same type of multiplier. 0:08:11.778 --> 0:08:14.718 Well, what one is getting more users quickly. But I 0:08:14.718 --> 0:08:16.938 thought we were talking about like launching like an NFT, 0:08:16.938 --> 0:08:19.218 for example, to gain a bunch of capital to be 0:08:19.218 --> 0:08:20.238 able to hire developers. 0:08:21.018 --> 0:08:22.938 It does do that, too. Yes. So it changes the model. 0:08:22.938 --> 0:08:26.478 So there's more, more cash upfront earlier on. And it 0:08:26.478 --> 0:08:30.228 also changes that same model. When you look at Axie Infinity, 0:08:30.318 --> 0:08:33.888 this is a terrible game. It's like a knock off, 0:08:34.218 --> 0:08:37.758 very poor, bad experience of Pokemon. It's nothing near as 0:08:37.758 --> 0:08:39.678 good as, let's say, Pokemon Go, which Pokemon Go was 0:08:39.678 --> 0:08:42.468 a craze out of a kind of a great new 0:08:42.468 --> 0:08:45.528 game system, right? That just swept the world. This is 0:08:45.728 --> 0:08:48.798 the lamest and dumbest game that has come out in 0:08:48.798 --> 0:08:51.678 any major way anytime recently. But if someone were to 0:08:51.678 --> 0:08:54.168 ask me, Hey, what's actually in of these prospects, I 0:08:54.168 --> 0:08:56.208 would say it's great because they just put all the 0:08:56.208 --> 0:08:58.128 money in the world in the bank, and everybody knows 0:08:58.128 --> 0:09:00.348 with their IP is they have done the thing you're describing, 0:09:00.348 --> 0:09:02.538 which they basically do to fundraise on a kind of 0:09:02.538 --> 0:09:05.298 bad game. Now they can iterate on that game and 0:09:05.298 --> 0:09:07.068 they can invest a lot of capital in making better 0:09:07.068 --> 0:09:09.738 versions of the game. And in one year, they're going 0:09:09.738 --> 0:09:11.598 to have games that are better than Pokemon Go because 0:09:11.598 --> 0:09:12.288 they have all this money. 0:09:13.198 --> 0:09:15.798 So what is the engine that's driving it? How is it? 0:09:16.278 --> 0:09:18.228 How is it surviving for six months or a year? 0:09:18.258 --> 0:09:19.728 Like what's keeping it afloat? 0:09:20.648 --> 0:09:22.538 Yes, I think that goes to some of the other 0:09:22.778 --> 0:09:26.488 other elements that are happening so should move forward to 0:09:26.708 --> 0:09:28.718 the first one is like the financial models change. Sure, sure. 0:09:30.068 --> 0:09:33.518 So so I think the second one is the change 0:09:33.518 --> 0:09:37.268 of people who are involved in something and turning them 0:09:37.268 --> 0:09:41.018 into owners of that faith. And I have a funny 0:09:41.018 --> 0:09:44.588 story about our background. I use an iPhone where an 0:09:44.588 --> 0:09:46.628 iPhone family and I have five kids and a wife 0:09:46.628 --> 0:09:49.898 and every one of us has some kind of Apple device. 0:09:50.738 --> 0:09:52.748 And the reason we have Apple devices is because of you, 0:09:53.078 --> 0:09:55.718 because many years ago you dragged me into a, you know, 0:09:55.728 --> 0:09:58.598 an Apple store and you bought me an iPhone because 0:09:58.598 --> 0:10:01.628 you're a man who influences people, write you. You basically 0:10:01.628 --> 0:10:05.078 have like a an attachment to Apple, and you shared 0:10:05.078 --> 0:10:07.508 and dragged me along that attachment spread to other people 0:10:08.258 --> 0:10:09.758 in marketing. This is called also being an app, and 0:10:09.758 --> 0:10:12.038 it's also being an influencer right near that, whether in 0:10:12.038 --> 0:10:13.658 a podcast or in person, you do the same thing 0:10:13.658 --> 0:10:17.498 with people all around. Mm-Hmm. Well, when you when you 0:10:17.498 --> 0:10:21.218 take something like a game and you actually give people 0:10:21.218 --> 0:10:23.288 an ownership stake in it by giving them a thing 0:10:23.288 --> 0:10:25.568 that they can then transfer and own and can change 0:10:25.568 --> 0:10:29.078 in value, you turn people far more into being mavin 0:10:29.078 --> 0:10:32.348 through your product, being influencers, free product, being stakeholders, having 0:10:32.348 --> 0:10:34.928 a reason to get other people to do it. So 0:10:34.988 --> 0:10:37.388 one of the shocking things is this game that is terrible. 0:10:37.598 --> 0:10:41.858 Axie Infinity actually has longer play times, higher growth than 0:10:41.858 --> 0:10:45.788 other conventional games because they have turned every single person 0:10:45.788 --> 0:10:48.278 who owns any piece of it, who owns an NFT. 0:10:48.458 --> 0:10:51.218 Who's playing this game into an advocate for it? And 0:10:51.218 --> 0:10:54.158 so they are they're weaponizing their own owners and their 0:10:54.158 --> 0:10:56.888 own community members to go and recruit more people because 0:10:57.338 --> 0:10:59.948 they all share that benefit together in the same emotional 0:10:59.948 --> 0:11:01.848 way that you advocate for for Apple. When you bought 0:11:01.868 --> 0:11:04.138 me and I thought you didn't have a stake, that right? 0:11:05.018 --> 0:11:07.178 So I don't know much about this game. Can I 0:11:07.548 --> 0:11:10.808 offer like a cynical approach to this? Is it just 0:11:10.808 --> 0:11:14.678 that it is free to play, to earn? Therefore, it's 0:11:14.678 --> 0:11:17.858 an income generation system. Therefore, a lot of people are 0:11:17.858 --> 0:11:19.778 making money off of it, so they're excited about it 0:11:19.778 --> 0:11:20.348 for that reason. 0:11:21.098 --> 0:11:24.008 Here's the really fascinating thing. Yes, yes and no. So 0:11:24.008 --> 0:11:26.858 there's another restriction that isn't just to earn. So what 0:11:26.858 --> 0:11:30.818 warcraft a game dear to my heart I played for 0:11:31.028 --> 0:11:33.758 a very long time has a much better earning engine 0:11:33.758 --> 0:11:37.268 than actually infinity. If you were to go and basically 0:11:37.268 --> 0:11:39.938 buy a five dollar asset in World of Warcraft and 0:11:39.938 --> 0:11:41.978 know how to use that asset correctly, you can make 0:11:41.978 --> 0:11:45.358 between one to $200 a day on that asset. And 0:11:45.358 --> 0:11:47.308 that's the exchange, the way people think about I own that, 0:11:47.308 --> 0:11:50.098 I own the thing I own property, what moneys that 0:11:50.098 --> 0:11:52.768 you bring for me. So the money being generated from 0:11:52.768 --> 0:11:55.918 a job in World War Craft is like 25 percent 0:11:55.918 --> 0:11:58.588 per day of the value that I set. If you 0:11:58.588 --> 0:12:02.308 go and buy a team for accidentally, it costs $100 0:12:03.118 --> 0:12:06.688 and it generates about $35 dollars a day. So the 0:12:06.688 --> 0:12:09.028 people who are working in this, so people in the U.S. 0:12:09.028 --> 0:12:10.678 are buying the assets and then they're farming out the 0:12:10.678 --> 0:12:14.188 jobs to other countries, like in East Asia. But the 0:12:14.188 --> 0:12:17.488 income per job is much, much worse than will work out. Well, 0:12:17.488 --> 0:12:19.708 what's the difference then between Acxiom theory and will work 0:12:19.708 --> 0:12:23.218 out why is actually infinity engaging people more and being 0:12:23.218 --> 0:12:28.378 more viral? And the reason is it's allowed. And apparently, 0:12:28.378 --> 0:12:30.098 when you make something of black market item like in 0:12:30.118 --> 0:12:32.548 World of Warcraft and you, there's a risk hanging over 0:12:32.548 --> 0:12:35.338 your head. People don't build businesses and do jobs out 0:12:35.338 --> 0:12:37.678 of that. So what a work. The simple idea that 0:12:37.678 --> 0:12:41.458 Blizzard never approved these types of transactions. They're still happening 0:12:41.458 --> 0:12:45.748 on a black market, but that disapproval, that complexity made 0:12:45.748 --> 0:12:47.578 it so people, not as many people are doing it 0:12:47.578 --> 0:12:50.038 as a job, even though it pays better. Whereas once 0:12:50.038 --> 0:12:51.628 you approve it and you say, you know what? This 0:12:51.628 --> 0:12:53.338 is the difference between like, are you a taxi driver? 0:12:53.488 --> 0:12:55.138 But you're looking over your shoulder constantly to see if 0:12:55.138 --> 0:12:57.208 cops are going to stop you and take away your taxi? Hmm. 0:12:57.418 --> 0:12:58.898 But you can earn a hundred times more if you're 0:12:58.898 --> 0:13:01.858 a black market taxi driver or are you a legitimate 0:13:01.858 --> 0:13:05.248 taxi driver or legitimate Uber and you're allowed to actually operate? 0:13:05.488 --> 0:13:07.498 And so when they made it, you're allowed to operate 0:13:07.498 --> 0:13:10.288 in this fashion that that was the change, even though 0:13:10.288 --> 0:13:13.288 the mechanisms to make money were already there. One is 0:13:13.288 --> 0:13:14.608 legal and one is essentially illegal. 0:13:14.728 --> 0:13:17.338 Didn't you have another example of this with a Fortnite 0:13:17.338 --> 0:13:19.258 mod or a Minecraft mod? 0:13:20.328 --> 0:13:23.688 Yeah, so if we go back to the origin of 0:13:24.198 --> 0:13:27.168 battle royales and we go back to the origin of MOBAs, 0:13:27.438 --> 0:13:29.608 both of these things were created by communities will get 0:13:29.658 --> 0:13:33.648 that probably later in this example as well. But Minecraft 0:13:34.098 --> 0:13:39.168 as a game did not allow people to monetize external 0:13:39.168 --> 0:13:41.358 from Minecraft itself for a long time until Microsoft bought them. 0:13:41.838 --> 0:13:45.318 And one of the things that happened was someone created, 0:13:45.318 --> 0:13:48.258 innovated a new type of game that was revolutionary, and 0:13:48.258 --> 0:13:50.718 I remember watching some of the very first Hunger Games 0:13:50.718 --> 0:13:52.938 and battles they were. They were battle rails. They were 0:13:52.938 --> 0:13:55.668 inspired from the movie Hunger Games. Mm-Hmm. You weren't to 0:13:55.728 --> 0:13:57.978 modifies them, right? So somebody made this mod and they 0:13:57.978 --> 0:13:59.988 gave it away for free. Now, when you're when you're 0:13:59.988 --> 0:14:01.728 making something, you're giving away for free and you can't 0:14:01.728 --> 0:14:05.908 monetize it. You you're not putting incentives in the right place. Right? 0:14:05.928 --> 0:14:09.138 It's like a weed startup companies b start companies. If 0:14:09.468 --> 0:14:11.688 they couldn't make any money, would pharmaceutical please make drugs 0:14:12.048 --> 0:14:15.558 if they couldn't, you know, benefit them? Afterwards, somebody went. 0:14:15.558 --> 0:14:18.078 And with no perceived long term benefit when it created 0:14:18.528 --> 0:14:21.168 Hunger Games mod in Minecraft, made no money on it. 0:14:21.768 --> 0:14:23.868 And then a bunch of people realized waits is way better, 0:14:24.048 --> 0:14:26.118 and then lots of different games started coming out following 0:14:26.118 --> 0:14:28.788 that same formula. And that led us up to Fortnite, 0:14:28.788 --> 0:14:31.218 which is one of the juggernauts now is literally a 0:14:31.218 --> 0:14:33.798 knock off of this mod now who made The Hunger 0:14:33.798 --> 0:14:36.768 Games mod? I have no idea. Did they make any money? No. 0:14:37.668 --> 0:14:39.348 So they did not drive innovation in the way it 0:14:39.348 --> 0:14:43.788 should have. If the incentive had been in a better place. 0:14:44.178 --> 0:14:48.138 Hmm, interesting. OK, so that's two. What's number three? 0:14:49.108 --> 0:14:53.968 So number three is the difference in the way these 0:14:53.968 --> 0:15:00.528 companies are interacting with their communities. So. When you when 0:15:00.528 --> 0:15:03.978 you look at a conventional game publisher like EA or 0:15:04.908 --> 0:15:07.728 we're at a games. So, you know, I talk a 0:15:07.728 --> 0:15:10.008 lot to Epic Games back before they became big with Fortnite, 0:15:10.248 --> 0:15:13.758 and they attempted to be very focused on their community 0:15:13.758 --> 0:15:16.218 and influencers. Once they got big, they kind of stopped. 0:15:17.018 --> 0:15:18.768 They were trying to, but they stopped. You go to 0:15:18.768 --> 0:15:20.628 the EEA and you say, Hey, I've got something that 0:15:20.628 --> 0:15:22.758 relates to your community. Hey, let's do something great with 0:15:22.758 --> 0:15:25.128 your community. They're going to be free to internet of 0:15:26.208 --> 0:15:29.298 a conventional game company right now is built on the 0:15:29.298 --> 0:15:31.368 idea that I'm going to go market. I'm going to 0:15:31.368 --> 0:15:33.378 get users and I try to maximize the value of 0:15:33.378 --> 0:15:35.838 most users. And if I can do anything to maximize 0:15:35.838 --> 0:15:38.058 my value, I'm going to do that thing. How do 0:15:38.058 --> 0:15:39.288 I make the most money from my people and how 0:15:39.288 --> 0:15:41.268 do I get more people? And that's where their brains 0:15:41.268 --> 0:15:44.538 are at. When you go to all the crypto gaming 0:15:44.538 --> 0:15:48.318 companies that exist right now, they're very different. The CMO 0:15:48.318 --> 0:15:51.498 for Gallo Games lives inside of their discord and talks 0:15:51.498 --> 0:15:54.208 to people all day long. So I went and met 0:15:54.208 --> 0:15:57.958 him at Decentral, which was a defy convention in Florida 0:15:58.258 --> 0:16:01.708 three months ago. And I said to him, Hey, what's 0:16:01.708 --> 0:16:03.688 the most important thing in your company? And his answer 0:16:03.808 --> 0:16:06.838 wasn't how good my game is. His answer wasn't how 0:16:06.838 --> 0:16:09.328 much money we make per user. His answer wasn't our 0:16:09.328 --> 0:16:13.438 user acquisition. His answer was our community. Most important thing 0:16:13.438 --> 0:16:15.538 to us is our community. This is a guy who 0:16:15.538 --> 0:16:18.388 the CMO of this now 10 plus billion dollar company. 0:16:18.688 --> 0:16:21.838 He lives all day long in discord. It's like his 0:16:21.838 --> 0:16:24.298 desk is sitting in front of a glass window that 0:16:24.298 --> 0:16:27.508 has a test. A testing group going on inside of it, 0:16:27.658 --> 0:16:29.848 which is constantly testing everything they're doing. And he is 0:16:29.848 --> 0:16:32.908 watching that nonstop. He is completely plugged into the community, 0:16:33.178 --> 0:16:35.248 as is everybody in the company. And if I say 0:16:35.248 --> 0:16:37.978 to him, Hey, listen, I've got a technique that will 0:16:37.978 --> 0:16:40.948 add 30 percent more to your monetization, but you know 0:16:40.948 --> 0:16:43.258 your community may not like it. He would laugh in 0:16:43.258 --> 0:16:45.268 my face and say, like, Are you kidding me? We 0:16:45.268 --> 0:16:47.578 don't do things like, you know, you just like all 0:16:47.578 --> 0:16:51.058 these crypto companies because there is a an absence of 0:16:51.058 --> 0:16:53.848 ability to market conventionally right now for crypto games. They 0:16:53.848 --> 0:16:57.598 have been built from this fundamental idea of We are 0:16:57.898 --> 0:17:01.708 games for communities. Our users are our mavens. Therefore, they 0:17:01.708 --> 0:17:04.618 must be happy. This is like if Apple said, Hey Dan, 0:17:05.788 --> 0:17:08.038 do you want me to charge you? X amount more 0:17:08.038 --> 0:17:11.428 for an Apple product? Right? And all they care about 0:17:11.428 --> 0:17:12.898 how much money they get from you? Or do you 0:17:12.898 --> 0:17:14.878 want Apple to call you and say, Hey, hey, Dan, 0:17:15.118 --> 0:17:18.418 what was going to make your experience with the iPhone better? Hmm. Right? 0:17:18.838 --> 0:17:21.298 These are companies that are built fundamentally from the idea 0:17:21.298 --> 0:17:23.818 of how do we keep our community engaged? How do 0:17:23.818 --> 0:17:25.588 we listen to our communities? How do we be responsive? 0:17:26.488 --> 0:17:30.418 And because they're built that way? The occurrences I mentioned 0:17:30.418 --> 0:17:33.808 earlier League of Legends of being a mobile and battery 0:17:33.808 --> 0:17:38.768 owls like Fortnite being a. Being a battle royale, those 0:17:38.768 --> 0:17:42.158 things were invented by communities and ignored by game developers 0:17:42.158 --> 0:17:45.908 for years. Hmm. It's very slow adoption. The crypto gaming 0:17:45.908 --> 0:17:48.308 world does not ignore its community. They are the most 0:17:48.308 --> 0:17:51.668 hyper responsive to community companies, their art. It is fundamental 0:17:51.668 --> 0:17:53.618 in their DNA, and I do believe that as they're 0:17:53.618 --> 0:17:55.718 getting bigger and bigger, they're not going to lose that 0:17:55.718 --> 0:17:57.488 in their DNA. And I do believe that that is 0:17:57.488 --> 0:18:00.188 a massive competitive advantage because they're actually listening to the 0:18:00.188 --> 0:18:02.078 consumer in a deep way that that other people are not. 0:18:02.528 --> 0:18:07.628 So is this because in this world, essentially those folks 0:18:07.628 --> 0:18:12.458 are not just users, they're also marketers and they're also creators. 0:18:13.088 --> 0:18:14.768 That's right. Yeah, which which will lead us to our 0:18:14.768 --> 0:18:16.468 first point of the greater part as well. But that 0:18:16.508 --> 0:18:19.388 is exactly right because you're you're consumers. Are everything right? 0:18:19.628 --> 0:18:21.728 I think one of the ways that ticktalk has managed 0:18:21.728 --> 0:18:26.378 to be even more viral than YouTube is not only 0:18:26.378 --> 0:18:30.038 is it giving you access to UGC, but it's actually 0:18:30.038 --> 0:18:33.098 taking everybody who watches TikTok and makes it really, really 0:18:33.098 --> 0:18:35.868 easy to pull you in as a creator yourself, right? 0:18:35.948 --> 0:18:38.708 Or try to involve the individual. And when my kids 0:18:38.708 --> 0:18:40.298 bring TikTok home and they go, Oh, look at this 0:18:40.298 --> 0:18:42.728 new TikTok. What they do, they they go filmed themselves 0:18:42.728 --> 0:18:45.608 doing the same thing. They've now flipped it around and 0:18:45.608 --> 0:18:47.888 now they're bringing all their friends and they're recruiting and 0:18:47.888 --> 0:18:50.618 they're becoming those advocates for that software that has helped 0:18:50.618 --> 0:18:53.498 drive TikTok. Well, that's true of all of these CryptoGames 0:18:53.498 --> 0:18:55.938 in an even deeper fashion, because not only are you 0:18:56.108 --> 0:18:58.568 essentially part of creation, but you're also part of ownership. 0:18:59.348 --> 0:19:02.618 And that transformation in the way that people are involved 0:19:02.828 --> 0:19:05.588 has made these companies recognize, OK, you know, community is 0:19:05.588 --> 0:19:08.648 the most important thing. And now when Blizzard and Facebook 0:19:08.648 --> 0:19:11.498 come along and try to play in this in this arena, 0:19:11.918 --> 0:19:14.888 they haven't grown up from that DNA, right? They they 0:19:14.888 --> 0:19:16.328 have people who are over here thinking about how do 0:19:16.328 --> 0:19:19.388 I maximize my user experience? How do I get the 0:19:19.388 --> 0:19:21.278 most money from people? How do I make this so 0:19:21.278 --> 0:19:23.888 I can have the best marketing campaigns there? Their old 0:19:23.888 --> 0:19:26.198 world mindset is not going to change that easily to 0:19:26.198 --> 0:19:28.178 thinking instead, Hey, I need to be sitting in a 0:19:28.178 --> 0:19:31.598 room with a thousand people who are who are my 0:19:31.598 --> 0:19:33.578 advocate and my users right now and all the time. 0:19:34.268 --> 0:19:36.728 That is a fundamental different DNA that I do not 0:19:36.728 --> 0:19:38.318 see in these major companies that I do see in 0:19:38.318 --> 0:19:40.598 all of the crypto companies. And I think it's going 0:19:40.598 --> 0:19:43.088 to give them a long term competitive edge. It's temporary 0:19:43.268 --> 0:19:44.738 because actually the rest of the world might change that 0:19:44.738 --> 0:19:47.768 model to eventually. So this is not an implicit like 0:19:47.768 --> 0:19:50.378 inherent persistent advantage, but it's certainly an advantage it's going 0:19:50.378 --> 0:19:51.518 to carry forward for a few years. 0:19:52.238 --> 0:19:55.808 Interesting. And so number four is creators. 0:19:56.618 --> 0:19:59.228 Yeah. So creators, right? We've seen this with YouTube. We've 0:19:59.228 --> 0:20:02.798 seen this with tech talk that the ability to have 0:20:02.798 --> 0:20:06.818 UGC means that you're not limited by like a company's creativity, 0:20:06.818 --> 0:20:09.788 like CBS is limited by your own creativity. Right? Once 0:20:09.788 --> 0:20:11.858 you add UGC, you multiply the amount of content you 0:20:11.858 --> 0:20:14.288 multiply the variety of that content and people go find 0:20:14.288 --> 0:20:18.308 out better and more in his ways of showing and 0:20:18.308 --> 0:20:21.198 doing things. So YouTube is just a better model from 0:20:21.198 --> 0:20:24.088 the UGC standpoint than, let's say, you know, like television. Mm-Hmm. 0:20:24.298 --> 0:20:27.458 As we can see, just like a caucus now when 0:20:27.458 --> 0:20:32.978 it comes to game creation. Right? Minecraft had a model 0:20:32.978 --> 0:20:34.988 that said for a long time and a model that said, Hey, 0:20:34.988 --> 0:20:37.598 you can come and build games out of Minecraft, but 0:20:37.598 --> 0:20:39.968 you can't monetize them. So the incentive to do it 0:20:39.968 --> 0:20:42.788 was very low. People still did it right. People still created. 0:20:42.788 --> 0:20:45.338 What turned into now is Fortnite, but they didn't. They 0:20:45.338 --> 0:20:48.428 didn't reaping the benefits. Well, if you look at the sandbox, 0:20:48.428 --> 0:20:50.528 which is one of the games right now that exists, 0:20:50.858 --> 0:20:54.038 they're mostly a toolkit to help people make their own games. 0:20:55.148 --> 0:20:57.908 This is can magnify the capacity for innovation because now 0:20:58.718 --> 0:21:00.758 all those people who used to go mod games for 0:21:00.758 --> 0:21:02.448 every other game are going to say, Well, do I 0:21:02.448 --> 0:21:04.028 want to go make them on my free game where 0:21:04.028 --> 0:21:05.768 it's really hard to be a monetized? If I want 0:21:05.768 --> 0:21:08.708 to monetize off of Minecraft Mod, it's actually not super easy. 0:21:09.788 --> 0:21:11.438 You can do it now. Now they've adjusted so you 0:21:11.438 --> 0:21:13.628 can do it, but it's still not very easy. You 0:21:13.628 --> 0:21:15.458 want to go and do something out of the sandbox. 0:21:15.668 --> 0:21:18.548 You have much more tools available to you to make 0:21:18.548 --> 0:21:21.698 something that is unique, and you immediately own the vast 0:21:21.698 --> 0:21:24.458 majority of the benefit. Right? How much money does the 0:21:24.458 --> 0:21:26.918 sandbox make when I go invent a game that's really 0:21:26.918 --> 0:21:29.888 a structured sandbox? It's like five percent. Almost all the 0:21:29.888 --> 0:21:32.228 money is going straight to the creators of those games, 0:21:32.588 --> 0:21:34.028 and this is the same kind of model that is 0:21:34.028 --> 0:21:37.238 happening for all across in piece. The minting platforms and 0:21:37.238 --> 0:21:40.898 the infrastructure are taking very little, but they're facilitating and 0:21:40.958 --> 0:21:46.058 they're enabling people to actually create UGC and benefit from 0:21:46.058 --> 0:21:49.138 it on YouTube. You know, you can benefit from your UGC. 0:21:49.208 --> 0:21:52.898 It's actually pretty hard to make a living because YouTube 0:21:52.898 --> 0:21:54.778 is still keeping the vast majority of the money right. 0:21:54.788 --> 0:21:56.258 Most of the advertising dollars go to YouTube at a 0:21:56.258 --> 0:21:58.748 very small amount goes to video creators. In this case 0:21:58.748 --> 0:22:01.388 that that model is pushed much more extreme, where ninety 0:22:01.448 --> 0:22:03.518 five percent of all the money from anybody who's trading 0:22:03.518 --> 0:22:06.068 anything goes straight to the creators, which creates a much 0:22:06.068 --> 0:22:09.938 bigger incentive for them to create things. And those things 0:22:09.938 --> 0:22:11.888 have a lot more flexibility, maybe just from the past. 0:22:12.608 --> 0:22:15.278 So we talked about Ready Player One in the past. 0:22:15.608 --> 0:22:18.728 It seems like, I mean, the sandbox, essentially like an 0:22:18.728 --> 0:22:20.438 SDK for how to that 0:22:20.948 --> 0:22:23.918 system would create the. Yeah, exactly right in the in 0:22:23.918 --> 0:22:26.618 the Ready Player One, you don't see the mechanisms behind 0:22:27.338 --> 0:22:30.518 the floor with Ready Player One Metaverse is that it 0:22:30.518 --> 0:22:34.778 was all owned by one company. And in the reality, 0:22:35.108 --> 0:22:37.158 metaverse is emerging what it would be a. Be one 0:22:37.158 --> 0:22:40.008 company who created the tools, but each of the world 0:22:40.008 --> 0:22:43.878 in Ready Player One would actually be owned by somebody else. Yeah, right. 0:22:44.028 --> 0:22:45.738 And that world would be like, Hey, listen, I own 0:22:45.738 --> 0:22:47.718 the world of doom, right? Doom was by, I think, 0:22:47.718 --> 0:22:50.928 one of the world's. MM-HMM. And I'm getting 95 percent 0:22:50.928 --> 0:22:53.358 of the value out of doom or doom was owned 0:22:53.358 --> 0:22:54.828 by a lot of people. It's actually spread out in 0:22:54.828 --> 0:22:57.258 terms of ownership. And there is there's a company that 0:22:57.258 --> 0:23:01.518 has that created infrastructure, but it's decentralized as possible. I 0:23:01.518 --> 0:23:03.078 think it's the one piece that was missing from Ready 0:23:03.078 --> 0:23:04.868 Player One that if you could go back and say, 0:23:04.938 --> 0:23:06.788 how will that actually be in the future? It's actually 0:23:06.798 --> 0:23:08.538 going to be okay. All those various worlds are owned 0:23:08.538 --> 0:23:12.948 by individuals. And ironically, that if the if that core 0:23:12.948 --> 0:23:17.208 infrastructure company, you know, went out of business or started 0:23:17.208 --> 0:23:20.418 being exploitative, those worlds would go somewhere else because the 0:23:20.418 --> 0:23:21.378 worlds are actually portable. 0:23:22.338 --> 0:23:25.848 Uh, yeah, is it is funny. Just kind of reminds 0:23:25.848 --> 0:23:28.518 me of some Soviet leader came over, I think, in 0:23:28.518 --> 0:23:32.238 the 1980s to tour the US and was walking around, 0:23:32.238 --> 0:23:34.158 I think New York City or something and just saw 0:23:34.158 --> 0:23:38.608 all these markets outside on the street. And he looked 0:23:38.608 --> 0:23:41.818 to his chaperone and said, Tom, show me the planner 0:23:42.568 --> 0:23:45.478 who came up with this, this is amazing. And they're like, No, no, 0:23:45.668 --> 0:23:47.698 all the different markets, they just put out their stuff 0:23:47.698 --> 0:23:50.548 whenever they want. Well, it's like, who decides what to 0:23:50.548 --> 0:23:52.258 put out? And they're like, No, it's all up to them. 0:23:52.678 --> 0:23:53.878 Yeah, yeah. Right, exactly. Yeah. 0:23:54.258 --> 0:23:55.078 Yeah. Very cool. 0:23:55.678 --> 0:23:58.468 Yeah, actually, that transitions really well into kind of my 0:23:58.468 --> 0:24:01.708 fifth point, which is persistence and decentralization. Right? We're talking 0:24:01.708 --> 0:24:05.288 about the Ready Player One model, right? Uh, well, in 0:24:05.298 --> 0:24:07.198 in the Web3 world right now, there's a lot of 0:24:07.198 --> 0:24:10.138 people who are kind of A. Big Brother A. Facebook 0:24:13.108 --> 0:24:16.678 for whatever happens to attract those people. But there is 0:24:16.678 --> 0:24:20.638 actually a really super element to crypto gaming that can 0:24:20.638 --> 0:24:22.618 make it way more persistent, and I can give a 0:24:22.618 --> 0:24:24.488 couple examples of this. But first, we can start with 0:24:24.488 --> 0:24:27.298 the Ready Player one example. The Ready Player One example is, 0:24:27.418 --> 0:24:31.468 let's just say IOI from the movie takes over and 0:24:31.648 --> 0:24:34.828 takes over the entire metaverse. And they say, Hey, guys, 0:24:34.828 --> 0:24:37.698 we're gonna put up ads everywhere, right? And all these 0:24:37.708 --> 0:24:39.838 are ago. Yeah, we don't want to have that experience. Well, 0:24:39.838 --> 0:24:41.728 what happens to the person who's created the doom world 0:24:42.088 --> 0:24:44.218 is the doom world is its own body of code. 0:24:44.398 --> 0:24:46.798 It doesn't maybe have an interpretation of the K, but 0:24:46.798 --> 0:24:48.298 it actually has its own group of users. It has 0:24:48.298 --> 0:24:49.978 its own community, and what they can do is say, 0:24:50.098 --> 0:24:54.538 You know what? We're going to unplug doom from your work, 0:24:54.568 --> 0:24:57.118 your system, because you're showing all these ads and that's shitty, 0:24:57.478 --> 0:24:59.188 and we're going to go plug it into the competitor 0:24:59.188 --> 0:25:01.678 viewers that just made this just kind of copy too 0:25:01.678 --> 0:25:04.408 much of your SDK elements. And if teams are essentially 0:25:04.408 --> 0:25:06.598 infinitely transferable, it's not. Doom is going to pick up 0:25:06.598 --> 0:25:10.198 its entire entire body and walk over here and plug 0:25:10.198 --> 0:25:13.618 into a different system. And that new infrastructure could offer 0:25:13.618 --> 0:25:16.138 a competitive edge. And you guys know, ads ad free 0:25:16.378 --> 0:25:18.448 and all of those worlds pick up and walk over, 0:25:18.478 --> 0:25:21.178 and Iowa is they're going, Wait, hey, guys, wait. But 0:25:21.178 --> 0:25:23.578 we're the ones who started all this doesn't matter. Right? 0:25:23.758 --> 0:25:27.328 This is a decentralized, persistent ownership that can be transferable. 0:25:27.568 --> 0:25:31.468 You can transfer the entirety of the assets. And there's 0:25:31.468 --> 0:25:33.838 an interesting example I have of this. There is an 0:25:33.838 --> 0:25:38.098 NFT project that one of my colleagues is involved in. 0:25:38.098 --> 0:25:40.138 I guess maybe all of singer name because this is 0:25:40.138 --> 0:25:43.918 super disparaging, but they basically the guys ran off with 0:25:43.918 --> 0:25:46.948 all the the money that was generated insanity project and 0:25:46.948 --> 0:25:48.948 they're supposed to be building a game and they have 0:25:49.048 --> 0:25:51.778 really engaged community. Well, they raised a bunch of money. 0:25:52.018 --> 0:25:54.718 They took the money and then they left right called 0:25:54.718 --> 0:25:57.868 a rental. It happens a lot in the NFT project, right? Well, 0:25:57.868 --> 0:25:59.548 a different group came along and said, Hey, guys, you 0:25:59.548 --> 0:26:02.308 know what? We like this community. We like this NFT project. 0:26:02.308 --> 0:26:04.528 We know where the money got take out, but whatever 0:26:04.888 --> 0:26:08.458 we'll take over the project or we'll clone the project. Hey, 0:26:08.458 --> 0:26:10.768 everybody out there who already has this thing on the blockchain? 0:26:11.038 --> 0:26:12.988 You know what? We're going to issue a new thing 0:26:12.988 --> 0:26:18.388 for you on this other and this other chain we're 0:26:18.478 --> 0:26:20.038 going to. We're going to give it to you, and 0:26:20.038 --> 0:26:21.428 we're just going to migrate all you guys over here. 0:26:21.428 --> 0:26:22.408 And hey, you know what? We're going to take care 0:26:22.408 --> 0:26:23.998 of you. We're going to do cool stuff that they're 0:26:23.998 --> 0:26:24.348 talking about. 0:26:24.368 --> 0:26:25.978 We created a new rug. We're going to put it 0:26:25.978 --> 0:26:27.958 under your feet that look just like the old rug 0:26:27.958 --> 0:26:28.498 that got stolen. 0:26:29.128 --> 0:26:31.198 Right, exactly. And they can do that very easily because 0:26:31.198 --> 0:26:33.958 the technology allows that kind of transfer an interesting replication. 0:26:34.288 --> 0:26:36.538 And so you can actually, you know, I could go 0:26:36.538 --> 0:26:38.998 make a game that is a racing game right now. 0:26:39.148 --> 0:26:40.738 And then I could say, Hey, by the way, guys, 0:26:40.858 --> 0:26:42.838 gala games has this game called spider tanks where you 0:26:42.838 --> 0:26:44.938 go and you fight. And I love the way they've 0:26:45.178 --> 0:26:48.298 visualized all of their tanks and it's a super fun game. But, 0:26:48.298 --> 0:26:50.338 you know, I really want to race things and they 0:26:50.338 --> 0:26:52.408 won't answer the phone. So I went made my own 0:26:52.408 --> 0:26:55.738 racing game and everybody who owns a spider tank gallon games, 0:26:56.068 --> 0:26:58.738 I've just issued you one of my one of my 0:26:58.738 --> 0:27:01.168 race cars and I've inspired it off of the art 0:27:01.168 --> 0:27:04.198 from whatever it was you already had. It's portable and 0:27:04.198 --> 0:27:06.928 it's persistent. Something can die. Bard's tale can go out 0:27:06.928 --> 0:27:09.868 of business. Gallon games can close their spider tanks. I 0:27:09.868 --> 0:27:13.258 can put up ads and those assets are portable and transferable, 0:27:13.258 --> 0:27:16.768 and it's it allows for a type of persistence that 0:27:16.768 --> 0:27:19.228 means that these things won't die. This is why people 0:27:19.228 --> 0:27:22.438 are obsessed with this, this real estate and obsessed with 0:27:22.438 --> 0:27:24.208 kind of the digital. I can only own a piece 0:27:24.208 --> 0:27:26.728 of digital real estate because it'll be persistent. Even the 0:27:26.728 --> 0:27:29.398 company issuing a ghost business, that real estate is still 0:27:29.398 --> 0:27:31.858 there and someone else will use it in the same way. 0:27:33.368 --> 0:27:36.698 This is fascinating. I think we talked about the biology stuff, 0:27:37.658 --> 0:27:40.598 the Web3 stuff, the Sam Harris podcast, where biology was 0:27:40.598 --> 0:27:44.048 on there and talking about it. This to me, what 0:27:44.048 --> 0:27:46.448 you're talking about is very Web3, and he's talking about 0:27:46.448 --> 0:27:49.958 in in the context of meat space. And like, you know, 0:27:50.618 --> 0:27:55.508 the city of Austin gets a CEO instead of a mayor. Right? 0:27:55.958 --> 0:27:58.748 And they say, OK, here's our tax law. Here's our 0:27:58.748 --> 0:28:01.358 traffic laws. Here's how you get fines. Here's how you 0:28:01.358 --> 0:28:04.778 get stoplight, you know, tickets or whatever. And like, here's 0:28:04.778 --> 0:28:07.898 our system and you decide to be part of it 0:28:07.898 --> 0:28:10.058 or not. And you have a competing one over here 0:28:10.058 --> 0:28:12.998 in Houston. Yep. And the idea is that you, you 0:28:12.998 --> 0:28:16.838 vote with your feet or whatever. In this case, more digitally. 0:28:16.838 --> 0:28:18.758 But it seems like it's kind of the same thing 0:28:18.758 --> 0:28:21.488 you're saying. It's like, I love this damn world, except for, 0:28:21.488 --> 0:28:24.278 I hate the rules over here. So someone just forks it. 0:28:24.458 --> 0:28:27.578 And now it's it's it's almost the same, but slightly 0:28:27.578 --> 0:28:30.098 different because these these different rules are different. 0:28:30.878 --> 0:28:33.008 Yeah, this idea of voting with your feet is so powerful, 0:28:33.008 --> 0:28:35.768 I think, in all of crypto, right? But beginning, it's 0:28:35.848 --> 0:28:37.788 sort of like the front end of the sphere. Here 0:28:38.158 --> 0:28:40.418 is the the place that has the most money and 0:28:40.418 --> 0:28:42.518 the most users and the most engaged. So it'll be 0:28:42.518 --> 0:28:45.068 the particle transformation. But yeah, it's the same thing is 0:28:45.068 --> 0:28:47.168 actually voting with your feet is the same thing that 0:28:47.168 --> 0:28:51.788 made free to play better than pay to play. Right now, 0:28:51.788 --> 0:28:53.858 you can vote more accurate with your feet because you're 0:28:53.858 --> 0:28:55.748 actually spending money where you want to, not just to 0:28:55.748 --> 0:28:57.818 try a thing, but for thing that is actually proving 0:28:57.818 --> 0:29:00.008 more long term value and then play to earn is 0:29:00.008 --> 0:29:01.598 allow you to vote your feet in a more long 0:29:01.598 --> 0:29:04.028 term way of like, Hey, first, I can try things 0:29:04.028 --> 0:29:06.698 for free. Typically, then I can spend money where I 0:29:06.698 --> 0:29:08.588 care about it, but then that money where I care 0:29:08.588 --> 0:29:11.258 about it could both give back to me and be 0:29:11.258 --> 0:29:13.928 persistent and can be transferable. And so there now becomes 0:29:13.928 --> 0:29:15.518 like all these different ways to vote with your feet 0:29:15.518 --> 0:29:18.908 that we didn't have before, and that magnifies your level 0:29:18.908 --> 0:29:20.888 of engagement and magnifies you doing the right thing out 0:29:20.888 --> 0:29:23.298 of it. So now the people who are involved here 0:29:23.428 --> 0:29:26.258 start getting the things they care about, and we've removed 0:29:26.258 --> 0:29:28.658 a big brother who's deciding what you care about. And 0:29:28.658 --> 0:29:30.968 now we've turned it into, Hey, what are the actual 0:29:30.968 --> 0:29:31.868 people saying they care about? 0:29:32.348 --> 0:29:35.498 Yeah, it's really fascinating. I mean, it does start to 0:29:35.498 --> 0:29:39.218 get pretty libertarian pretty quickly, because what it's talking about 0:29:39.218 --> 0:29:42.308 is competition, right? You have a game. It's like it 0:29:42.308 --> 0:29:44.798 makes you mostly happy, but you really hate this one thing. 0:29:45.308 --> 0:29:47.288 You're just going to play another version of that game 0:29:47.288 --> 0:29:49.118 where that thing's fixed. Yup. 0:29:49.998 --> 0:29:53.378 Yeah. Because it's because it is the sort of the decentral. 0:29:53.378 --> 0:29:57.188 This is the fifth point. Decentralization and the persistence right enables. 0:29:57.398 --> 0:30:00.938 The decentralization allows it to be like no one person 0:30:00.938 --> 0:30:04.778 decides it can lock you into an experience, right? Can 0:30:04.778 --> 0:30:06.848 lock your assets into one place because there is a 0:30:06.848 --> 0:30:10.838 portable and the biggest companies right now in the gaming space. 0:30:10.988 --> 0:30:13.808 They know this. So if you go to the sandbox 0:30:13.808 --> 0:30:16.238 for Gallo games, these are two of the, let's say, 0:30:16.238 --> 0:30:20.318 six biggest companies out there right now that are already 0:30:20.318 --> 0:30:23.558 established in the in the crypto gaming world. They play 0:30:23.558 --> 0:30:27.518 super nice together. In fact, like they really, really want 0:30:27.518 --> 0:30:30.068 to be friends because they recognize that they have to 0:30:30.068 --> 0:30:34.388 actually have, like sort of friends and collaboration and communities, 0:30:34.418 --> 0:30:36.938 and it's all about playing together. They can't stick out 0:30:36.938 --> 0:30:41.828 their territory. Like, does Facebook go and call Microsoft and say, Hey, guys, 0:30:42.008 --> 0:30:43.658 we want to figure out how we can play better 0:30:43.658 --> 0:30:46.208 and nicer together. We want all of our stuff to crossover. 0:30:46.208 --> 0:30:48.428 We should know. They're putting up fences and trying to 0:30:48.428 --> 0:30:52.718 stake out their territory, right? Games and sandbox are inspired 0:30:52.718 --> 0:30:55.508 by each other. And when a new thing comes out, Hey, hey, 0:30:55.508 --> 0:30:57.278 this new thing? Hey, can we do this thing together? 0:30:57.788 --> 0:31:00.698 So what do you think games do relative to, you know, 0:31:00.718 --> 0:31:03.038 that's different than sandbox is exactly the same? Or is 0:31:03.038 --> 0:31:03.728 that a different take? 0:31:05.078 --> 0:31:07.928 It's actually a very different take. So Galaga games started 0:31:07.928 --> 0:31:10.298 out by they were a bunch of guys who basically 0:31:10.298 --> 0:31:14.288 had made Farmville, and they're like, Well, Farmville was a 0:31:14.288 --> 0:31:16.688 great free play game. Play to earn is better. Let's 0:31:16.688 --> 0:31:19.028 go make Farmville in crypto game and they went and 0:31:19.028 --> 0:31:20.768 made Farmville in crypto gaming. So we started out with 0:31:20.768 --> 0:31:23.708 a single sort of proven game model. It wasn't ideal 0:31:24.608 --> 0:31:26.708 and they started up again and then he realized, OK, 0:31:26.708 --> 0:31:29.588 this is actually better, so let's do more games. And 0:31:29.588 --> 0:31:31.898 so they started hiring independent game publishers with their money, 0:31:31.898 --> 0:31:34.028 and they started building up games. And they basically their 0:31:34.028 --> 0:31:37.208 approach was to go and individually themselves or contract to 0:31:37.208 --> 0:31:39.548 build different games and then have a bunch of games 0:31:39.548 --> 0:31:41.468 all under the banner. So they are much more of 0:31:41.468 --> 0:31:44.468 a hey, we have like six games in development, like 0:31:44.468 --> 0:31:46.538 three you can play right now. So they went and 0:31:46.538 --> 0:31:50.198 built individual sandbox style tools to build games and built 0:31:50.198 --> 0:31:53.228 this metaverse component. So they're playing together right now because 0:31:53.408 --> 0:31:55.718 gal games like we have all these games, we have 0:31:55.718 --> 0:31:58.288 no metaverse and we have tools to make games. Sandbox 0:31:58.328 --> 0:32:00.098 is like we have a metaverse and we have tools 0:32:00.098 --> 0:32:03.338 to make games. Let's play nice with delegates. And so they're, 0:32:03.368 --> 0:32:06.338 you know, sort of being friends trying to connect these 0:32:06.338 --> 0:32:08.618 things back and forth of Mexican, so. 0:32:09.288 --> 0:32:14.098 So if we oversimplify. A sandbox has the ecosystem and 0:32:14.098 --> 0:32:16.168 go games has the initial content 0:32:17.128 --> 0:32:18.948 they have, they have some initial content they made themselves, 0:32:18.958 --> 0:32:21.088 they didn't do it at UGC. So they have a 0:32:21.088 --> 0:32:23.768 number of they had a faster way to go to market. 0:32:23.788 --> 0:32:26.818 They did was easier, but it wasn't really as transformative 0:32:26.818 --> 0:32:29.128 as Sandbox was doing because they just want made games 0:32:29.128 --> 0:32:32.518 in this new model without trying to increase that isa. 0:32:32.848 --> 0:32:37.528 So they skipped Item four, which was you. Gotcha. It 0:32:37.528 --> 0:32:39.028 did make them go to market faster, but I think 0:32:39.028 --> 0:32:41.188 they're aware that they missed that piece. They did this 0:32:41.188 --> 0:32:43.138 launch a new thing that is also UGC So they 0:32:43.138 --> 0:32:44.938 obviously know they're going to start filling in those gaps. 0:32:46.678 --> 0:32:48.688 OK, so what are the five again altogether? 0:32:49.558 --> 0:32:51.618 So the five are the change to the model, right? 0:32:51.658 --> 0:32:55.948 That illusion from from a free to play and to 0:32:55.948 --> 0:33:00.328 play to, erm, the financial model, the the the ability 0:33:00.328 --> 0:33:03.638 to sort of bring more money upfront and the change 0:33:03.638 --> 0:33:06.778 to the way users are paying and spending and the 0:33:06.778 --> 0:33:09.958 change the financial model is the first one. The second 0:33:09.958 --> 0:33:12.988 one is the way that you involve your owners and 0:33:12.988 --> 0:33:16.078 your players and your margins and your influencers into actual 0:33:16.078 --> 0:33:18.148 ownership and you turn them into advocates the way that 0:33:18.148 --> 0:33:21.668 you know you're an advocate for Apple. Right? That happens automatically, 0:33:21.718 --> 0:33:23.938 much more powerful. You give somebody something. You give them 0:33:23.938 --> 0:33:25.858 a stake in something. They are way more likely to 0:33:25.858 --> 0:33:29.098 think of it positively and recruit others. Mm-Hmm. The second 0:33:29.098 --> 0:33:30.898 one is that the change in the model of ownership 0:33:30.898 --> 0:33:32.248 by bringing people into the ownership. 0:33:33.248 --> 0:33:33.878 And third one, 0:33:35.018 --> 0:33:37.928 the third one is the fact that these companies right 0:33:37.928 --> 0:33:42.188 now have a temporary advantage of being fundamental community DNA 0:33:42.188 --> 0:33:45.068 companies where they listen to their communities. They're hyper responsive 0:33:45.068 --> 0:33:48.068 to feedback because of one and two, right makes number 0:33:48.068 --> 0:33:50.228 three make a lot of sense to them. I don't 0:33:50.228 --> 0:33:52.718 know how long it will take for the other companies 0:33:52.718 --> 0:33:56.768 like Metta and Microsoft to change their entire DNA. To 0:33:56.768 --> 0:33:58.748 be like that, it might never happen. So all of 0:33:58.748 --> 0:34:01.178 the existing companies that are that have grown up inside 0:34:01.178 --> 0:34:04.358 of crypto gaming have this fundamental DNA that is, let's 0:34:04.358 --> 0:34:06.428 listen to our community, which is a great practice for 0:34:06.428 --> 0:34:09.938 any company and quadrupling a great practice for companies that 0:34:09.938 --> 0:34:10.558 are in crypto game. 0:34:10.928 --> 0:34:15.608 OK, so finance mavens community and was four and five. 0:34:16.058 --> 0:34:19.028 Fourth is UGC. Right. And not only just the ability 0:34:19.028 --> 0:34:22.268 to create UGC, but the ability to incentivize that. UGC 0:34:22.448 --> 0:34:24.638 And most of the money goes to the UGC creators. 0:34:24.848 --> 0:34:27.018 That's the creators of the world do make 95 percent 0:34:27.018 --> 0:34:29.738 of the money, right? This is an improvement over the 0:34:29.738 --> 0:34:32.098 other models for UGC. They're out there that you know 0:34:32.228 --> 0:34:33.938 you can make YouTube videos. What only one thing you 0:34:33.938 --> 0:34:36.568 can do on YouTube. You can record yourself and you make, 0:34:36.578 --> 0:34:39.338 you know, 25 percent of what what is coming in 0:34:39.338 --> 0:34:42.968 from advertising for this gaming is actually got more money 0:34:42.968 --> 0:34:45.518 behind it, more user behind it. Ninety five percent goes 0:34:45.518 --> 0:34:47.918 to the U.S. creators, and the amount of flexibility that 0:34:47.918 --> 0:34:52.588 UGC is much, much greater. OK. And then the fifth 0:34:52.588 --> 0:34:55.318 one is that decentralization and persistence, the fact that you 0:34:55.318 --> 0:34:58.918 can port something from here to here, I can leverage 0:34:58.918 --> 0:35:01.288 spider tanks, oh, I can't kind of come in to 0:35:01.298 --> 0:35:03.958 control the whole thing. So your actual ownership of is 0:35:03.958 --> 0:35:06.928 more true because because it is decentralized. 0:35:07.198 --> 0:35:09.388 So would you say that's the closest to what three 0:35:09.628 --> 0:35:10.348 is number five? 0:35:11.988 --> 0:35:16.218 With. Yeah, I think the persistence and decentralization ownership, that's 0:35:16.218 --> 0:35:18.948 one of the key elements of, you know, cryptocurrency as well, 0:35:19.878 --> 0:35:21.618 no one can take down my currency that you know, 0:35:21.618 --> 0:35:24.048 that I earn on on bitcoin. So I think that's 0:35:24.048 --> 0:35:26.118 the most conventional sort of web theory of blockchain. 0:35:26.538 --> 0:35:32.798 Interesting. So question for you about examples. I love your example. 0:35:32.808 --> 0:35:34.998 I know you're a huge Disney fan. Can you talk 0:35:34.998 --> 0:35:37.668 through like what Disney should have done or what they 0:35:37.668 --> 0:35:40.548 still can do with, like issuing some sort of NFT 0:35:40.548 --> 0:35:43.308 with like special powers and like how it feeds into 0:35:43.308 --> 0:35:44.328 all five of your models? 0:35:45.138 --> 0:35:48.378 Yeah, so well, with with this, let's talk about Disney Plus. 0:35:49.008 --> 0:35:51.528 So now these five things these five things or these 0:35:51.528 --> 0:35:53.778 are what existing crypto gaming. And so when we jump 0:35:53.778 --> 0:35:56.328 over to Disney Plus, we're going be talking about just 0:35:56.328 --> 0:36:00.098 entertainment rights and all of that exactly the same. But 0:36:00.298 --> 0:36:02.448 but if you love this example, so Disney Plus, I'm 0:36:02.448 --> 0:36:05.118 a huge fan of Disney Disney. You know, I love 0:36:05.118 --> 0:36:09.708 Star Wars. I love Marvel movies. My kids all love 0:36:09.708 --> 0:36:13.038 all princess movies. I love Pixar movies. This is like 0:36:13.218 --> 0:36:15.288 four of the best types of content there is. So 0:36:15.288 --> 0:36:17.358 when they announced Disney Plus, I'm like, OK, I'm in. 0:36:17.778 --> 0:36:20.508 I am going to own Disney Plus for my entire life. 0:36:20.628 --> 0:36:22.698 There is no chance that I won't. I know that 0:36:22.698 --> 0:36:25.128 the second it gets announced that no matter almost no 0:36:25.128 --> 0:36:26.658 matter how much they even charge, they charge four dollars 0:36:26.658 --> 0:36:29.208 a month. I would still own Disney Plus. If they 0:36:29.208 --> 0:36:31.338 charge one hundred, I would probably still own Disney Plus. 0:36:31.638 --> 0:36:33.858 It relates to all five of my kids, myself, my wife. 0:36:34.098 --> 0:36:35.898 It is of great importance and I believe it is 0:36:35.898 --> 0:36:37.878 going to do very, very well. I'm like Disney Plus 0:36:38.208 --> 0:36:40.488 is these are the kings of content. Remember, we called it. Yeah, 0:36:40.998 --> 0:36:43.038 I said, this is going to do extremely well. There's 0:36:43.038 --> 0:36:44.568 no prediction. It's going to be on the nose for 0:36:44.568 --> 0:36:45.498 a while is going to do it's going to get 0:36:45.498 --> 0:36:47.928 better and better over time. And they will win if 0:36:47.928 --> 0:36:49.398 they're going to be three winners. It's one of they 0:36:49.398 --> 0:36:51.528 will be one of those winners. So I would be 0:36:51.528 --> 0:36:53.778 willing to invest in Disney Plus if it was a 0:36:53.778 --> 0:36:56.508 carve out from Disney. Now, I don't know how successful 0:36:56.508 --> 0:36:59.718 Disney would be. And, you know, coronavirus can by kick 0:36:59.718 --> 0:37:02.178 the ass of their parks. But I knew and I 0:37:02.178 --> 0:37:05.028 was sure Disney Plus was going to be successful if 0:37:05.028 --> 0:37:09.468 Disney Plus had been modeled using this new blockchain. And 0:37:09.468 --> 0:37:10.818 they had said, Hey guys, we're going to take a 0:37:10.818 --> 0:37:14.268 page from the books of these other hyper growth, successful 0:37:14.268 --> 0:37:16.278 financial models. And we're going to we're going to launch 0:37:16.278 --> 0:37:18.468 a piece of Disney Plus. We're going to get an 0:37:18.468 --> 0:37:21.318 NFT and this NFT is going to be a VIP pass. 0:37:21.828 --> 0:37:23.178 And there's a lot of privileges we can add. And 0:37:23.178 --> 0:37:25.608 this is where Disney let's just keep it simple. First 0:37:25.608 --> 0:37:27.948 things first, this VIP pass is going to give you 0:37:27.948 --> 0:37:31.248 a lifetime subscription to Disney Plus, and you're going to 0:37:31.248 --> 0:37:35.508 own it and it's fully transferable. So this thing is 0:37:35.508 --> 0:37:38.058 going to cost a thousand dollars. Now, Disney Plus cost, 0:37:38.448 --> 0:37:40.548 is it six dollars an hour? I don't know, but 0:37:41.268 --> 0:37:45.378 that's a hundred months of Disney Plus. Mm hmm. Hey, 0:37:45.378 --> 0:37:46.938 we're going to sell four thousand dollars. We're going to 0:37:46.938 --> 0:37:50.598 do 100000 of these VIP passes for Disney Plus. Well, 0:37:50.598 --> 0:37:52.548 what would happen on day one? Prior to day one, 0:37:52.548 --> 0:37:54.678 I would have gone out about three. Right? Because I 0:37:54.678 --> 0:37:57.198 would have immediately invested in that micro opportunity because I 0:37:57.198 --> 0:37:58.878 was such a big believer in it. I would have 0:37:58.878 --> 0:38:01.278 bought 30 and I said, Hey, Dan, I'm going to 0:38:01.278 --> 0:38:02.508 sell these for a long time because I think the 0:38:02.658 --> 0:38:04.098 is going to go up. But if you want to 0:38:04.098 --> 0:38:06.228 watch Disney Plus having a loan, you one of mine. 0:38:06.258 --> 0:38:07.968 So here's one of my What am I going to 0:38:07.988 --> 0:38:10.668 VIP badges? So you can also watch Disney Plus. I'm 0:38:10.668 --> 0:38:12.818 going to let all my friends use my my things. 0:38:12.828 --> 0:38:14.838 I get to be cool for a while, but I 0:38:14.838 --> 0:38:18.078 also I believe that the value think significantly. So now 0:38:18.078 --> 0:38:22.518 there are there are 100000 of these things, right? They 0:38:22.518 --> 0:38:24.438 will sell out on day one, for sure. I bought 0:38:24.438 --> 0:38:27.458 30 myself. People like I get to own a VIP 0:38:27.468 --> 0:38:30.678 lifetime pasta, always on Disney Plus. How many people are 0:38:30.678 --> 0:38:32.778 there who bought just like me? Quite a few. Which 0:38:32.778 --> 0:38:34.608 is why their numbers have blown up. They would have 0:38:34.608 --> 0:38:36.918 earned more money on day one than they have earned 0:38:37.128 --> 0:38:40.068 up to date so far. That's on day one. And 0:38:40.068 --> 0:38:42.438 it would not cannibalize their audience is actually a small 0:38:42.438 --> 0:38:44.838 percentage of their audience where they're charging a thousand dollars. 0:38:45.408 --> 0:38:48.648 Now what happens on day to on day two? You 0:38:48.648 --> 0:38:51.018 say to me, Hey, Andrew, did you notice that these 0:38:51.018 --> 0:38:53.268 things sold out instantly and their value was now doubled? 0:38:53.598 --> 0:38:55.848 I can't buy them anymore on the open market. They 0:38:55.848 --> 0:38:57.918 now cost two thousand. Will you sell me one of 0:38:57.918 --> 0:39:00.288 yours for fifteen hundred? And I go, Okay, sure, you're 0:39:00.288 --> 0:39:02.268 my friend. No problem. I will sell you one of 0:39:02.268 --> 0:39:05.988 my Disney VIP passes for fifteen hundred. I now make $500. 0:39:06.648 --> 0:39:09.828 Five percent. That transaction goes back to Disney. Wait. Disney 0:39:09.828 --> 0:39:12.398 just covered their monthly subscription fees for all my 30s 0:39:13.008 --> 0:39:14.968 and 40s that I have off of off of Vine. 0:39:15.798 --> 0:39:18.888 So they still are making their money. Now you also 0:39:18.888 --> 0:39:21.858 own something that is part of this future right now. 0:39:21.858 --> 0:39:23.568 Assuming they do this correctly and they don't go just 0:39:23.568 --> 0:39:26.028 print way more of these, their value goes up and up. 0:39:26.448 --> 0:39:29.238 And three months later, there are more and more people saying, Well, 0:39:29.238 --> 0:39:30.828 I want to have a lifetime pass for Disney Plus. 0:39:30.828 --> 0:39:32.928 And actually, if I'd been smart and I bought one, 0:39:33.228 --> 0:39:36.288 the value of that pass without before. The more people 0:39:36.288 --> 0:39:37.968 who do that, the more that the value was driven. 0:39:38.208 --> 0:39:40.698 And now I have I have twenty eight sell well 0:39:40.698 --> 0:39:44.088 passes that are all worth four thousand dollars. I go, 0:39:44.088 --> 0:39:45.678 You know what? I give some of my kids to college, 0:39:45.888 --> 0:39:48.048 so I'm going to go and liquidate 20 of these 0:39:48.258 --> 0:39:51.138 and I'm going to make 80 grand. I have now 0:39:51.138 --> 0:39:55.038 pocketed 50 grand. I've benefited personally off of the success 0:39:55.038 --> 0:39:56.838 of Disney Plus because I called it as an investor. 0:39:57.228 --> 0:39:59.268 I didn't it to be a Qualifié investor. There wasn't paperwork. 0:40:00.588 --> 0:40:03.258 There's not particularly like any complexity with doing that. So 0:40:03.258 --> 0:40:06.228 I've now made way more money than I invested in 0:40:06.228 --> 0:40:07.758 this thing. That was pretty reliable, and this would have 0:40:08.328 --> 0:40:11.238 would multiplied almost for sure. And I still have my life. 0:40:12.558 --> 0:40:17.328 A VIP for Disney Plus now, has Disney Plus lost anything? No, 0:40:17.328 --> 0:40:20.508 they're way ahead financially. They're getting residual income off of 0:40:20.508 --> 0:40:22.548 the secondary market sales, which is more than they would 0:40:22.548 --> 0:40:25.458 get off of subscriptions. I'm able to be able to 0:40:25.458 --> 0:40:27.768 signal that I'm a cook because I own a Disney 0:40:27.858 --> 0:40:30.018 VIP pass. I don't have to worry about paying that 0:40:30.018 --> 0:40:32.398 bill anymore because honestly, I was going to pay that 0:40:32.398 --> 0:40:34.098 bill for the rest of my life anyway. It's not 0:40:34.098 --> 0:40:36.468 going to happen. I still wanted to do this same thing. 0:40:36.468 --> 0:40:39.158 The MCU like, Hey, you know what? I buy a 0:40:39.888 --> 0:40:43.728 a one time ticket to go to a movie theater like, 0:40:44.058 --> 0:40:45.888 you know, and I can just go every single week. 0:40:46.098 --> 0:40:48.048 They keep trying to do this with subscription fees, but 0:40:48.078 --> 0:40:49.308 like they could do with an NFT and they could 0:40:49.308 --> 0:40:52.628 raise theatres, could do the same thing with a smaller 0:40:52.678 --> 0:40:54.108 people and actually raise a lot of money in the 0:40:54.108 --> 0:40:56.568 short run, puts money in their pockets and then they're 0:40:56.568 --> 0:41:00.248 still going make their money off a residual. Now, I 0:41:00.248 --> 0:41:01.658 don't know how long will be until a company like 0:41:01.658 --> 0:41:04.508 Disney can adapt to a new kind of model. But 0:41:04.508 --> 0:41:06.878 this model's been proven in the nifty world by people 0:41:06.878 --> 0:41:10.748 who aren't significant brands. And so my expectation is within 0:41:10.748 --> 0:41:14.228 two to five years, this will sweep through everything, right? 0:41:14.318 --> 0:41:17.198 And it's going to be now a hand in hand. OK, 0:41:17.198 --> 0:41:19.568 I'm watching Disney Plus. OK, what's the part that we're 0:41:19.568 --> 0:41:23.238 going to do that is persistent and decentralized and gives 0:41:23.258 --> 0:41:25.298 ownership out because I want to create all those advocates. 0:41:25.298 --> 0:41:28.538 I want to have more money upfront. You know, I 0:41:28.538 --> 0:41:30.578 want to be seen to be give back to my community. OK, 0:41:30.578 --> 0:41:32.638 that's half of it. And then what's the other half? Yeah. 0:41:32.678 --> 0:41:34.298 And how many years will be until it happens and 0:41:34.418 --> 0:41:38.018 happens everywhere? It's starting to happen, but it'll be slow 0:41:38.018 --> 0:41:40.478 because it's hard for people like Disney to go, OK, 0:41:40.838 --> 0:41:43.838 here's our conventional projection. We're using Disney Plus as using 0:41:43.838 --> 0:41:46.328 a model from tells you to like you to look 0:41:46.328 --> 0:41:48.818 at Netflix and see what Netflix do. They're not thinking, OK, 0:41:48.818 --> 0:41:51.338 what's this innovative thing that just changed the way money 0:41:51.338 --> 0:41:53.648 is flowing, the way users are engaged? That's not where 0:41:53.648 --> 0:41:56.048 people are at yet. Not yet, but gaming will lead 0:41:56.048 --> 0:41:59.418 the way for everything. And what's gaming does this, which 0:41:59.498 --> 0:42:03.098 is sort of starting to, you know, Metta and Microsoft 0:42:03.098 --> 0:42:05.888 and Blizzard? And you give us one more year in 0:42:05.888 --> 0:42:08.108 gaming and then two more years in gaming. This is 0:42:08.108 --> 0:42:11.408 going to sweep through and other gaming companies who don't 0:42:11.408 --> 0:42:13.388 adapters can be decimated because it's going to be so 0:42:13.388 --> 0:42:16.028 much superior in terms of its adoption. So a couple 0:42:16.028 --> 0:42:19.958 of years from now, you know, it's Fortnite will be 0:42:19.958 --> 0:42:22.028 doing this just like everybody else. All of gaming will 0:42:22.028 --> 0:42:23.828 do it. And then it'll become very easy for companies 0:42:23.828 --> 0:42:26.348 like Disney Plus to be like, Oh, wait, you know what? 0:42:26.738 --> 0:42:28.388 It works in gaming. Why wouldn't that work over here? 0:42:29.018 --> 0:42:30.998 Yeah. And I think you even had an example where 0:42:30.998 --> 0:42:36.458 somebody was trying to sell tickets to a club, to 0:42:36.488 --> 0:42:39.098 a deejay club or whatever and they like couldn't get 0:42:39.098 --> 0:42:40.898 any traction. They were talking to you about an NFT 0:42:40.898 --> 0:42:42.758 is and you're like, Why don't you just do this instead? 0:42:43.598 --> 0:42:45.218 Yeah. So so I know these guys and they have 0:42:45.218 --> 0:42:47.828 an event marketing company in Prague, and what they do 0:42:47.828 --> 0:42:50.348 is they go and they give out free tickets and 0:42:50.348 --> 0:42:53.528 they give out free tickets to different club events. And 0:42:53.528 --> 0:42:54.908 the reason they got free tickets is when you give 0:42:54.908 --> 0:42:57.188 out 300 free tickets to a club and a giant 0:42:57.188 --> 0:42:59.768 party happening at this club. Well, those three people will 0:42:59.768 --> 0:43:02.438 go and bring another 900 people right, and then they 0:43:02.438 --> 0:43:04.688 get a very small percentage of the door. So their 0:43:04.688 --> 0:43:06.968 job is to go out and get out 300 free tickets. So. 0:43:07.058 --> 0:43:08.338 So that's one thing where people show up to this 0:43:08.348 --> 0:43:10.748 club and then they get a small percent of the 0:43:10.748 --> 0:43:12.758 door and that's their model. And they're like, Yeah, we're 0:43:12.758 --> 0:43:15.158 always looking for ways to improve our model. I said, OK, well, 0:43:15.158 --> 0:43:16.538 you have a mailing list. You go out and give 0:43:16.538 --> 0:43:18.098 out tickets in person. You do these very things that 0:43:18.098 --> 0:43:21.428 these tickets out well, why don't you just sell the 0:43:21.428 --> 0:43:25.108 interests of these clubs costs $8000. So cost, you know, 0:43:25.118 --> 0:43:26.738 let's say it cost $10 to get in one door. 0:43:26.738 --> 0:43:29.718 Cost $7. Medicare cost $7 to get in one of 0:43:29.718 --> 0:43:32.318 these clubs. Mm hmm. Well, when you give out those 0:43:32.318 --> 0:43:34.838 theater tickets, people are happy because reading something free, you're 0:43:34.838 --> 0:43:37.628 turning them into your marketing and for free else. Why 0:43:37.628 --> 0:43:40.088 don't you take those people that you're regularly emailing? Take 0:43:40.088 --> 0:43:41.558 people that you're really going out and trying to get 0:43:41.558 --> 0:43:43.118 them to sign up and go to these these parties 0:43:43.118 --> 0:43:47.258 for free and actually offer those people hey, instead of 0:43:47.258 --> 0:43:49.718 one free tickets, I'm going to give you a free 0:43:49.718 --> 0:43:53.978 ticket to every party happening in Prague, in Prague, at 0:43:53.978 --> 0:43:55.658 one of these giant clubs, and they actually have one 0:43:55.658 --> 0:43:58.148 every night because they've been doing this event thing every night. 0:43:58.448 --> 0:44:00.128 So there are seven nights a week and people, you know, 0:44:00.248 --> 0:44:02.408 young people in the party love to go to clubs 0:44:02.798 --> 0:44:03.908 so you can go and say, Hey, by the way, 0:44:03.908 --> 0:44:05.738 it normally costs you seven dollars to get into one 0:44:05.738 --> 0:44:07.868 of these clubs doing one of these events because they're 0:44:07.868 --> 0:44:10.388 really cool. Hey, if you buy this thing right here, 0:44:10.388 --> 0:44:16.268 which costs $50, this is lifetime free lifetime. How many? 0:44:16.268 --> 0:44:17.828 How many of these parties do you go to per month? 0:44:18.308 --> 0:44:20.768 Is it? How often? How long is it until you 0:44:20.768 --> 0:44:23.648 get your money back? Right? And they said these people's 0:44:23.648 --> 0:44:25.268 return rate is super high and these people are going 0:44:25.268 --> 0:44:27.758 to one or two parties a week. Mm-Hmm. So in 0:44:27.758 --> 0:44:30.068 what month they will get their money back? Right? So 0:44:30.068 --> 0:44:31.748 you can say to them, Hey, guys, I could give 0:44:31.748 --> 0:44:34.088 you a free ticket or I can sell you a 0:44:34.088 --> 0:44:36.368 lifetime supply of free tickets. Every one of these parties 0:44:36.368 --> 0:44:37.928 you can go into and they can go out and 0:44:37.928 --> 0:44:42.438 they could sell a thousand or 2000 or 4000 of these. 0:44:42.458 --> 0:44:44.918 And it's the technology makes it very easy for me 0:44:44.918 --> 0:44:48.038 to do this, and that gives somebody a VIP pass 0:44:48.038 --> 0:44:49.598 to get in all these clubs. First of all, it's 0:44:49.598 --> 0:44:51.878 signaling it's cooler. They get to show up and be like, 0:44:52.088 --> 0:44:54.218 flash their pass and special line, whatever. 0:44:54.278 --> 0:44:56.258 Yeah, special line. I have a thing that, oh yeah, 0:44:56.258 --> 0:44:57.878 it's free for me forever. Wait, how do I go 0:44:57.878 --> 0:45:00.398 one of those? You can't. They're sold out. You want 0:45:00.398 --> 0:45:02.798 to buy mine? It costs you $500 because you can't 0:45:02.798 --> 0:45:04.898 even buy it. Sergeant more they go when they sell 0:45:04.898 --> 0:45:07.628 the first five hundred now that much money to them. 0:45:07.928 --> 0:45:10.928 Five hundred at fifty dollars to them is actually a 0:45:10.928 --> 0:45:12.968 giant sum of money compared to what they make as 0:45:12.968 --> 0:45:13.538 a percentage so they 0:45:13.538 --> 0:45:15.998 could upgrade their club. They could do a whole bunch 0:45:15.998 --> 0:45:16.428 of stuff, right? 0:45:16.448 --> 0:45:18.038 They do all kinds of things, did it through the 0:45:18.038 --> 0:45:20.588 marketing agency, drive people to clubs, but they could basically, 0:45:20.768 --> 0:45:22.778 they would not have to go. And market is much 0:45:22.778 --> 0:45:25.628 anymore because more people would own these VIP passes and 0:45:25.628 --> 0:45:28.808 they would have way more money upfront. Hmm. Now is 0:45:28.808 --> 0:45:31.508 there a problem in the long run with having a 0:45:31.508 --> 0:45:33.098 bunch of people who show up to these clubs and 0:45:33.098 --> 0:45:35.948 get them for free? No, it's their fundamental model anyway. 0:45:36.128 --> 0:45:38.168 They already want people show up for free. This goes 0:45:38.168 --> 0:45:40.538 back to our point number two of turning like owners 0:45:40.538 --> 0:45:42.368 and mavens and try to get people to bring other people. 0:45:42.578 --> 0:45:45.338 They're using that same kind of concept. This is magnifies 0:45:45.338 --> 0:45:48.208 it and actually lowers their workload. They could do this NFT, 0:45:48.218 --> 0:45:49.688 and they could not even do the rest of what 0:45:49.898 --> 0:45:51.878 stuff to do. They could literally just sell EMT and 0:45:51.878 --> 0:45:53.948 then say, You know what? We're done. The only thing 0:45:53.948 --> 0:45:55.208 we do is we get two percent of the door. 0:45:55.448 --> 0:45:58.028 You have a right to use our app at your door. 0:45:58.918 --> 0:46:00.178 They go to a club and say, Hey, by the way, 0:46:00.178 --> 0:46:02.308 we want 30 percent of the gate in exchange for 0:46:02.308 --> 0:46:04.638 you using our app, so now let's face gambling. 0:46:04.678 --> 0:46:07.978 This is crazy. So if somebody were to respond and 0:46:07.978 --> 0:46:10.858 say you're going to lose out because people are just 0:46:10.858 --> 0:46:12.568 going to be coming for free. That was the point 0:46:12.568 --> 0:46:13.348 in the first place 0:46:13.348 --> 0:46:17.968 was to get the. Right? Exactly. Yep, yeah, that's amazing, right? 0:46:18.088 --> 0:46:20.878 They were already trying to turn people into recruitment for 0:46:20.878 --> 0:46:22.618 other people, right? When I go to a party, I 0:46:22.618 --> 0:46:25.918 bring and I go to this club, I bring three friends. Yeah, right? 0:46:26.188 --> 0:46:29.338 It's the exact same model. And they just made it now. 0:46:29.338 --> 0:46:31.138 So it's easier to implement, right? So they're getting all 0:46:31.138 --> 0:46:34.318 kinds of utility here, actually gaining simplicity for business model 0:46:34.318 --> 0:46:37.678 like the actual business model that flows without as many humans. Again, 0:46:37.678 --> 0:46:40.108 a bunch of cattle up front and they have no problem. 0:46:40.148 --> 0:46:42.688 That's what they're doing. Now that simplicity means they can 0:46:42.688 --> 0:46:45.238 do this in Prague, and they can pick up their 0:46:45.238 --> 0:46:48.538 exact methodology and they can go to Paris and they 0:46:48.538 --> 0:46:50.428 can do the exact same thing. And how much effort 0:46:50.428 --> 0:46:51.778 is it going to go to this thing in Paris? 0:46:51.778 --> 0:46:53.908 They were going to in Prague when it's all based 0:46:53.908 --> 0:46:57.508 on selling out these, these adapters that give you VIP entrances. 0:46:57.718 --> 0:47:00.028 They walk into the clubs show what happened in Prague. 0:47:00.268 --> 0:47:02.638 Now it's really easy to replicate their business. So we 0:47:02.638 --> 0:47:05.038 take in business and made it easy to replicate through 0:47:05.038 --> 0:47:08.818 this technology innovation, giving them way more money. Now it's 0:47:08.818 --> 0:47:10.918 actually like right away, they'll have plenty of money to say, 0:47:10.918 --> 0:47:14.038 You know what? We're done here. Prague is running by itself. 0:47:14.338 --> 0:47:16.528 We're earning residuals on this. We're earning a percentage of gate. 0:47:16.768 --> 0:47:18.428 Let me go to Paris in. 0:47:19.948 --> 0:47:26.168 So, so the fundamental concepts of revenue generation initially combined 0:47:26.168 --> 0:47:29.768 with turning people into Melvins. These are kind of universal. 0:47:29.798 --> 0:47:32.768 I'm calling these like the ring line five or something. 0:47:34.148 --> 0:47:36.158 I think there's three that are better universal like for 0:47:36.158 --> 0:47:37.028 all crypto, right? 0:47:37.028 --> 0:47:38.858 Which is number three, also universal. 0:47:41.578 --> 0:47:44.008 It's not universal because it's an advantage that the crypto 0:47:44.008 --> 0:47:46.378 gaming companies have. So I don't know that it's universal. 0:47:46.408 --> 0:47:48.718 I mean, I don't know that bitcoin isn't over here. Like, 0:47:48.988 --> 0:47:51.028 are they being hyper responsive to community? I kind of 0:47:51.028 --> 0:47:54.108 doubt it because there is no bitcoin, right? There's so 0:47:54.288 --> 0:47:55.868 so I don't know. That number three is, is it 0:47:55.918 --> 0:47:57.508 true across all of Web3? 0:47:57.538 --> 0:48:00.418 OK, but a number of them are actually just true 0:48:00.418 --> 0:48:02.968 of like new ways of doing business, and they're just 0:48:02.968 --> 0:48:04.138 being spearheaded by gaming. 0:48:05.098 --> 0:48:08.278 Yeah, right. Spearheading has has more powerful like all these 0:48:08.278 --> 0:48:10.768 things multiply together, right? You take you take these five things, 0:48:11.638 --> 0:48:14.848 you know, they all multiply together. Gaming has these five 0:48:14.848 --> 0:48:18.238 powerful things multiplying together. That's why this is like since 0:48:18.238 --> 0:48:20.998 July of last year, one game has changed the whole 0:48:20.998 --> 0:48:23.098 gaming industry. And you could go and talk to any 0:48:23.248 --> 0:48:25.348 any game company and say, Hey, by the way, what 0:48:25.348 --> 0:48:26.938 are you doing for crypto? And what you're going to 0:48:26.938 --> 0:48:30.508 get is either pain, joy or fear because every single 0:48:30.508 --> 0:48:32.788 person is being dragged into conversations about crypto because they 0:48:32.788 --> 0:48:34.948 all have realized, Oh, wait a second, that the why 0:48:34.948 --> 0:48:37.078 has been proven the what the first y of like 0:48:37.558 --> 0:48:40.318 holy shit exchanges. All the money is enough, and now 0:48:40.318 --> 0:48:43.318 everyone's going to change. But a bunch of these same 0:48:43.318 --> 0:48:45.568 drivers are sure and all of you know, crypto, whether 0:48:45.568 --> 0:48:48.778 we talk about Disney Plus or, you know, ticketing or 0:48:49.708 --> 0:48:51.868 a lot of things, you're also crypto currency. 0:48:52.918 --> 0:48:55.648 Yeah, so that's what I love about this conversation is 0:48:55.648 --> 0:48:58.708 that I think what we figured out or I mean, 0:48:58.708 --> 0:49:00.808 I think you already knew and I already knew a 0:49:00.808 --> 0:49:03.568 little bit, but it became crystal clear in that conversation that. 0:49:05.578 --> 0:49:07.648 It's not about the tech, it's not about an NFT, 0:49:07.678 --> 0:49:11.998 it's not about a cryptocurrency. This is fundamentally changing how 0:49:11.998 --> 0:49:15.838 businesses operate, how they generate money, how they get people excited, 0:49:16.708 --> 0:49:20.278 super importantly, how content is created for them. It's really 0:49:20.278 --> 0:49:23.008 hard to have a content creation team. You can only 0:49:23.008 --> 0:49:25.558 make so much. But if you can get people excited 0:49:25.558 --> 0:49:27.748 and have them create their own stuff, which they have 0:49:27.748 --> 0:49:32.188 financial incentives to actually creating that sense of that sort 0:49:32.188 --> 0:49:36.538 of interlocking incentives work together to create something amazing that 0:49:36.538 --> 0:49:39.508 works for gaming. It also works other places. You had 0:49:39.508 --> 0:49:42.118 a dirt example do the dirty example. 0:49:43.298 --> 0:49:45.548 Yeah, so so after I got him the space, which 0:49:45.548 --> 0:49:48.008 you know, early on, you were very helpful with teaching 0:49:48.008 --> 0:49:51.068 me like technology and protocols and all that stuff. And 0:49:51.068 --> 0:49:52.628 then I went and to conferences. I talked to lots 0:49:52.628 --> 0:49:54.848 of people, and for me, I had a revelation when 0:49:54.848 --> 0:49:56.378 I was talking to a guy who had a whisky company. 0:49:56.378 --> 0:49:59.068 And I'm like, Why? The same thing is like, why? Like, 0:49:59.228 --> 0:50:02.078 what is the possible advantage of sticking an NFT barcode 0:50:02.288 --> 0:50:06.188 on a casket? Why does that matter? Like, like, I'm 0:50:06.188 --> 0:50:08.408 so skeptical of this. And after talking to Guy for 0:50:08.408 --> 0:50:11.768 an hour, I walk away going, Holy shit, that actually matters. 0:50:12.068 --> 0:50:13.478 This guy is actually able to do a bunch of 0:50:13.478 --> 0:50:15.968 things that that actually really do matter because he figured 0:50:15.968 --> 0:50:18.158 the model out. And so I started to challenge myself 0:50:18.158 --> 0:50:20.768 of saying the why in regards to anything. And like 0:50:20.768 --> 0:50:23.618 the why is there a way that you know that 0:50:23.618 --> 0:50:27.338 we can leverage blockchain and these crypto concepts on different things? 0:50:28.028 --> 0:50:30.818 So I'm at a I'm at Christmas dinner with my 0:50:30.968 --> 0:50:33.278 brother in law who always says, Oh yeah, you do 0:50:33.278 --> 0:50:36.368 things with computers. Those aren't real. I build houses. That's real. Like, 0:50:36.368 --> 0:50:38.208 that's kind of a shtick of the 80s. Feel funny. 0:50:39.488 --> 0:50:40.838 And so I say to him, like, Hey, listen, give 0:50:40.838 --> 0:50:43.808 me any problem that you have. And there might be, 0:50:43.808 --> 0:50:45.128 you know, I'm gonna try to find a way to 0:50:45.128 --> 0:50:48.548 solve that problem in the future using using blockchain. And 0:50:48.548 --> 0:50:50.708 he goes, My problem is dirt. I say, OK, this 0:50:50.708 --> 0:50:53.208 is perfect. This is the forest away from from technology. 0:50:53.208 --> 0:50:55.238 You can possibly give me your problem of dirt. And 0:50:55.238 --> 0:50:57.458 he's like, I have dirt that I need to get 0:50:57.458 --> 0:51:00.608 rid of. It's going to cost me $30000 to go 0:51:00.608 --> 0:51:03.608 and dump it into, you know, landfill or appropriate EPA 0:51:03.608 --> 0:51:05.708 approved place if I can get a golf course to 0:51:05.708 --> 0:51:08.348 take it. I'm calling golf courses every day, trying to 0:51:08.348 --> 0:51:10.568 get some golf courses. Take it because occasionally they'll take dirt. 0:51:10.928 --> 0:51:12.698 But I am always stuck with this problem of having 0:51:12.698 --> 0:51:14.038 to get rid of dirt. And then, you know what, 0:51:14.048 --> 0:51:15.878 in a couple of months, I'm actually going to buy 0:51:15.878 --> 0:51:19.388 dirt from somebody. It's super annoying that I both need 0:51:19.388 --> 0:51:21.128 to sell dirt and I need to buy dirt. And 0:51:21.128 --> 0:51:22.408 there are a lot of people at the same problem, 0:51:22.418 --> 0:51:25.388 but like, that's a real problem, like dirt under your fingernails. 0:51:25.478 --> 0:51:26.868 How are you going to solve that with, you know, 0:51:26.888 --> 0:51:29.888 digital ones and zeros? And I go, OK, let's let's 0:51:29.888 --> 0:51:33.518 try this out. So how many contractors are there who 0:51:33.518 --> 0:51:35.318 deal with dirt, who want to either buy or sell 0:51:35.318 --> 0:51:38.148 dirt in the in the Bay Area right now? And 0:51:38.148 --> 0:51:41.558 he's like, There's 10000. I'm like, OK, would you spend 0:51:41.558 --> 0:51:44.768 $5000 to have a pass that allows you to dispose 0:51:44.768 --> 0:51:46.958 of or pick up dirt? He said, For sure, I'm 0:51:46.958 --> 0:51:48.848 going to spend thirty right now to dispose of a 0:51:48.848 --> 0:51:52.118 bunch of dirt. Why wouldn't I spend $5000? I said, OK, great. 0:51:52.268 --> 0:51:57.008 Let's convert those 10000 people, uh, into. I mean, this 0:51:57.008 --> 0:51:59.018 is this assuming we can do some you have connections 0:51:59.018 --> 0:52:00.188 and that there's some way for us to get this started. 0:52:00.188 --> 0:52:02.438 But let's assume that's the case. We go out and 0:52:02.438 --> 0:52:04.088 we tell all these guys, Hey, by the way, you 0:52:04.088 --> 0:52:07.898 buy a $5000 pass to drop off and pick up dirt. Uh, 0:52:09.038 --> 0:52:10.988 it makes sense for all of them. They're all going 0:52:10.988 --> 0:52:13.988 to buy into this pass. Right now, you have five 0:52:14.078 --> 0:52:18.188 million dollars to create a center and Stanford center that 0:52:18.188 --> 0:52:21.458 will pick up, store and then distribute dirt. You've got 0:52:21.458 --> 0:52:24.068 plenty of money to actually process this like that's way 0:52:24.068 --> 0:52:25.568 more money than you're going to need to actually process 0:52:25.568 --> 0:52:27.398 all the dirt and allow people to come in and 0:52:27.398 --> 0:52:30.448 take it. And now all of you have this right, 0:52:30.458 --> 0:52:32.678 you're the owner. You're also going to be an advocate. 0:52:32.678 --> 0:52:35.168 So we only get five thousand people start with every 0:52:35.168 --> 0:52:37.348 one of your people who, you know, is like, I'm 0:52:37.388 --> 0:52:39.228 dropping off the dirt and my dirt center and they go, Wait, 0:52:39.248 --> 0:52:41.108 your dirt center? Yeah, I own part of the dirt 0:52:41.108 --> 0:52:43.028 center that I can drop off and pick up whatever. 0:52:43.538 --> 0:52:46.148 I want that right? So it will spread right. It 0:52:46.148 --> 0:52:48.188 has the capacity to spread from person to person to 0:52:48.188 --> 0:52:51.488 go sell out. Right now you've sold out and again 0:52:51.488 --> 0:52:55.088 you limited supply. This, uh, so there is 10000 passes. 0:52:55.598 --> 0:52:58.928 A new contractor moves in the Bay Area and he goes, 0:52:58.928 --> 0:53:00.968 Wait a second, you mean that I can get rid 0:53:00.968 --> 0:53:03.128 of and pick up dirt whenever I want. This is fantastic. 0:53:03.788 --> 0:53:07.448 How do I get in on that? You can't all 0:53:07.448 --> 0:53:10.848 the passes were sold. OK, I really want it on that. 0:53:10.878 --> 0:53:14.358 I've got three major projects coming up. Who has a pass? 0:53:14.358 --> 0:53:17.238 I can buy some else over here. I'm retiring next 0:53:17.238 --> 0:53:18.888 year and I don't think I'm doing any more stellar 0:53:18.888 --> 0:53:20.658 dig out. So you know what I will sell. You 0:53:20.658 --> 0:53:25.408 might pass for 40 grant. I'm going to be nice 0:53:25.408 --> 0:53:27.598 to you because you're a nice guy. Guy buys a 0:53:27.598 --> 0:53:30.538 pastor 40 grand, so somebody over here bought a pass 0:53:30.538 --> 0:53:33.598 for 5000 brands to pick up and drop off dirt, right? 0:53:34.768 --> 0:53:36.568 A couple of days later, someone who showed up needs 0:53:36.568 --> 0:53:40.678 a pass. They sold their pass. They pocketed the 35 grand. Right. 0:53:40.768 --> 0:53:43.908 So they benefited by the marketing adoption of this center. 0:53:44.218 --> 0:53:47.968 The dirt centre gets a five percent cut to maintain 0:53:48.148 --> 0:53:52.228 their staff and their infrastructure. That $40000 transaction pays money 0:53:52.228 --> 0:53:54.298 back to the drawing center to keep it right. Right? 0:53:54.448 --> 0:53:56.488 Who owns the dirt center? All the people who bought 0:53:56.488 --> 0:53:59.218 these in a piece, right? He transferred his ownership of 0:53:59.218 --> 0:54:00.898 his piece of the drug center to this new guy, 0:54:01.018 --> 0:54:03.598 paying money to the senator to keep it running, pocketing 0:54:03.598 --> 0:54:06.118 a bunch of money himself. All of those initial people 0:54:06.118 --> 0:54:08.848 who created a strip center now that they've actually made 0:54:08.848 --> 0:54:12.208 a bunch of money off of this dresser because all 0:54:12.208 --> 0:54:14.098 of the things that they possessed, they can let us see. 0:54:14.098 --> 0:54:16.138 You know what? I'm selling kid to college. I don't 0:54:16.138 --> 0:54:18.118 care about dirt any more. And they can sell their thing, 0:54:18.118 --> 0:54:20.008 and it's worth the money because the value has been 0:54:20.008 --> 0:54:25.308 proven out. So this allows for upfront fundraising to create 0:54:25.308 --> 0:54:28.098 the dirt, so it allows for distributed ownership, the center, 0:54:28.098 --> 0:54:30.438 all those people are involved. It allows for those people 0:54:30.438 --> 0:54:33.408 to become advocates of the center, allows them to share 0:54:33.408 --> 0:54:35.928 in the benefits and the rewards, right. In a way, 0:54:35.928 --> 0:54:38.748 this is like UGC for business, right? A guy created 0:54:38.748 --> 0:54:42.018 his own custom use case that, you know, is some 0:54:42.018 --> 0:54:45.288 investment company going to come and say, or some start company, 0:54:45.288 --> 0:54:46.548 I want to sell dirt. They're not going to do 0:54:46.548 --> 0:54:50.388 that right? But but we took the financial possibilities and 0:54:50.388 --> 0:54:52.518 we made them granular enough and flexible enough that they 0:54:52.518 --> 0:54:55.938 could apply to contractors and the infrastructure is easy to 0:54:55.938 --> 0:54:59.238 do that. I don't have to go through as many 0:54:59.238 --> 0:55:02.388 different legal proceedings to even transfer ownership. Again, all of 0:55:02.388 --> 0:55:03.948 this has made a lot easier when you're doing it 0:55:03.948 --> 0:55:07.788 on blockchain. And so the ease of simplicity, if we 0:55:07.788 --> 0:55:11.598 harken back to one of the really early examples of 0:55:11.598 --> 0:55:14.538 World of Warcraft versus Axie Infinity Warcraft, you can make 0:55:14.538 --> 0:55:17.478 more money in. But it's illegal. It's hard. Actually, infinity 0:55:17.488 --> 0:55:20.358 is it's legal and it's easy to change to making 0:55:20.358 --> 0:55:24.588 it easier does actually alter the adoption. So the fact 0:55:24.588 --> 0:55:27.378 that the blockchain ownership is shared much more easily and 0:55:27.378 --> 0:55:30.798 much more transferred does help enable. This does help make 0:55:30.798 --> 0:55:33.918 it possible. And that's a solution for dirt, which is, 0:55:34.428 --> 0:55:36.378 you know, like, is that going to happen tomorrow? Probably not. 0:55:36.948 --> 0:55:40.128 Is that going to happen three years from now? There's 0:55:40.128 --> 0:55:40.608 a good chance. 0:55:41.268 --> 0:55:44.868 Yeah, and there's a million problems that are just like problem. Right? 0:55:45.078 --> 0:55:48.078 Exactly. Yeah. One of the things that the podcast you 0:55:48.078 --> 0:55:54.138 referenced earlier mentioned was regulation and how it's very hard 0:55:54.138 --> 0:55:55.968 for the government to regulate things and keep on top 0:55:55.968 --> 0:55:57.738 of all of the various entities that are out there. 0:55:58.548 --> 0:56:01.578 It's a lot easier for users to self-regulate, and Uber 0:56:01.578 --> 0:56:04.788 and Yelp and Rotten Tomatoes are an early example of this. 0:56:04.968 --> 0:56:07.728 That isn't the full, fully able form, but they allow 0:56:07.728 --> 0:56:11.118 for peer to peer reviewing. If you're a bad driver, 0:56:11.508 --> 0:56:13.458 you get put out of business rankings. People give you 0:56:13.458 --> 0:56:15.648 bad reviews. If they get you big in your Uber, 0:56:15.648 --> 0:56:18.378 it smells and you're mean you can put out of business. 0:56:18.618 --> 0:56:22.788 They have decentralized. That relationship to different sides are both 0:56:22.908 --> 0:56:26.328 validating one another. Yeah, that kind of model is the 0:56:26.328 --> 0:56:28.308 model that we need to regulate all the things in 0:56:28.308 --> 0:56:30.708 the future. And that kind of model is made much 0:56:30.708 --> 0:56:33.588 easier through blockchain, right? Uber is still an example of 0:56:33.588 --> 0:56:35.328 that type of regulation, but it's still owned by Uber. 0:56:36.828 --> 0:56:38.958 But that model can be further improved by being blockchain, 0:56:38.958 --> 0:56:40.758 and then it can be applied to nearly everything. And 0:56:40.758 --> 0:56:44.408 so we'll have way less transactions that are better, not 0:56:44.418 --> 0:56:45.888 peer to peer regulated. We're going to get way more 0:56:45.888 --> 0:56:48.918 punitive regulation. That's again, the reason why Alleghenies does something 0:56:48.918 --> 0:56:52.218 to disrupt the community. Well, they're being regulated by their community. 0:56:52.218 --> 0:56:54.768 Their community has a voice, their concerns, boat and a 0:56:54.768 --> 0:56:58.128 lot of games and companies that are in the space 0:56:58.518 --> 0:57:01.338 are allowing for that kind of regulation. So the sandbox 0:57:01.338 --> 0:57:03.768 goes and has people vote on things before they're going 0:57:03.768 --> 0:57:05.568 to do a thing that changes the way their currency 0:57:05.568 --> 0:57:08.358 is deployed, structured, they go and they hold a vote 0:57:08.598 --> 0:57:10.998 and people who hold an ownership vote. And so they're 0:57:10.998 --> 0:57:14.298 decentralizing that regulation implicitly inside of their model. 0:57:15.358 --> 0:57:18.178 Interesting, so that's a very web Web3 sort of thing 0:57:18.178 --> 0:57:24.228 with ownership and voting, yeah, inside of an ecosystem. Awesome. Well, 0:57:24.228 --> 0:57:27.198 this is a this is fantastic. I think hopefully we've 0:57:27.798 --> 0:57:31.608 stitched together how this is a pretty big idea. I 0:57:31.608 --> 0:57:33.588 like I like your five tenants. I think they're really 0:57:33.588 --> 0:57:36.288 useful and I do agree with you. I think we 0:57:36.288 --> 0:57:39.048 could talk about this in the context of gaming, but 0:57:39.378 --> 0:57:41.118 it really is much bigger than that. It's just gaming 0:57:41.118 --> 0:57:41.658 is leading it. 0:57:42.258 --> 0:57:46.128 Yeah, yeah. And gaming is a will because gaming is 0:57:46.128 --> 0:57:48.198 bigger than all other forms of entertainment. It's going to 0:57:48.198 --> 0:57:50.628 lead the way and then everyone else will just follow suit. 0:57:52.678 --> 0:57:55.558 Now, consider what needs most people need a community, most 0:57:55.558 --> 0:57:58.468 people need to make money, and most people need marketing. 0:57:59.458 --> 0:58:02.008 But these are things that are just better done in 0:58:02.008 --> 0:58:05.488 this model, so yep, like we were saying, these are 0:58:05.698 --> 0:58:09.118 incentive models, not really technologies. They're kind of the same. 0:58:09.118 --> 0:58:12.688 But yeah, the tech, the technology has only been a 0:58:12.688 --> 0:58:14.818 small step forward. Like, that's the thing is, when people 0:58:14.818 --> 0:58:17.458 were first talking about, Hey, let's have decentralized trust for 0:58:17.458 --> 0:58:22.138 your trust, OK? Technologically, it doesn't matter at all. But actually, psychologically, 0:58:22.138 --> 0:58:24.688 it matters when you create that persistence. And so this 0:58:24.688 --> 0:58:27.118 this is not a like it's not technically that different 0:58:27.298 --> 0:58:30.188 to stick a NFT barcode on a whiskey cake and 0:58:30.238 --> 0:58:31.798 was like, What am I like? Listen, this is not 0:58:31.798 --> 0:58:35.458 technically that different. You're just changing the way ownership exists. Well, 0:58:35.608 --> 0:58:37.048 when you when you do a bunch of these small, 0:58:37.048 --> 0:58:39.928 subtle changes and you involve people in the ownership and 0:58:39.928 --> 0:58:41.668 you make things easier and you make things easier to 0:58:41.668 --> 0:58:43.708 vote and you make them persistent and you start to 0:58:43.708 --> 0:58:47.548 do all these little tweaks, suddenly it actually has powerful psychological. 0:58:47.878 --> 0:58:50.658 They're feeding off each other. They're having to each other. Yeah, right? 0:58:51.448 --> 0:58:53.358 And here's what I think a lot of people don't realize, 0:58:53.358 --> 0:58:56.068 just like NFT or whatever, there's lots of rug pulls 0:58:56.578 --> 0:59:00.418 like crypto could fill. Bitcoin could fill. Ethereum could fail. 0:59:00.988 --> 0:59:04.948 Even blockchain could fail. But these ideas that you've talked about, 0:59:05.338 --> 0:59:08.038 which are enabled by those technologies, they will resurface. 0:59:08.608 --> 0:59:10.498 Yeah. These ideas are not going. 0:59:10.738 --> 0:59:13.768 Yeah. Even if this stuff actually, you know, crashed, it 0:59:13.768 --> 0:59:16.108 would rise from the ashes in a different form. Maybe 0:59:16.108 --> 0:59:18.208 it would be a different blockchain. Or maybe it would 0:59:18.208 --> 0:59:19.678 not even be a blockchain, but it would have the 0:59:19.678 --> 0:59:20.308 same features. 0:59:20.998 --> 0:59:22.738 Yeah, right, exactly. I mean, there also might be an 0:59:22.738 --> 0:59:26.578 evolution on the speed at which technology and ideas are evolving. 0:59:26.758 --> 0:59:29.158 It is possible this thing doesn't get to its full 0:59:29.158 --> 0:59:32.608 maturity before it gets replaced by something even superior inspired 0:59:32.608 --> 0:59:36.838 by it. Yeah, that's possible. I actually think that's almost 0:59:36.838 --> 0:59:38.338 the most likely thing to happen. Is this the speed 0:59:38.338 --> 0:59:40.348 of innovation at will so quick that if someone were 0:59:40.348 --> 0:59:42.028 born and innovate, a couple of things that again are 0:59:42.028 --> 0:59:43.828 going to help multiply these advantages? 0:59:44.488 --> 0:59:47.548 Yeah, but I think certain certain components are so fundamental 0:59:47.548 --> 0:59:51.328 that you can't go too much further. I mean, ultimately, 0:59:51.328 --> 0:59:55.918 you have you have companies, you have people, you have marketing, 0:59:56.218 --> 0:59:59.998 you have the raising of money and you have profit 0:59:59.998 --> 1:00:02.968 and you have ownership. You the certain things are are 1:00:03.058 --> 1:00:05.908 kind of static. The question is like, how good is 1:00:05.908 --> 1:00:08.938 the technology at magnifying those things? 1:00:09.808 --> 1:00:13.348 You know, I have what my colleagues recently calling me like, Hey, listen, 1:00:13.348 --> 1:00:14.608 you know that if you give people a piece of 1:00:14.608 --> 1:00:18.898 candy before you try to sell them something, they are 1:00:19.168 --> 1:00:22.908 four times more likely to buy from. That's that's the 1:00:22.908 --> 1:00:25.218 same idea, what you just change a little bit of 1:00:25.678 --> 1:00:28.908 the psychology of involvement in some way. It just changes 1:00:28.908 --> 1:00:31.638 things materially, so those things won't be different. Those are 1:00:31.638 --> 1:00:33.258 human drivers that, you know, we're going to change our 1:00:33.258 --> 1:00:37.138 nature overnight. And it's all about, you know, finding the 1:00:37.138 --> 1:00:41.128 right ways to leverage that that can help grow the 1:00:41.128 --> 1:00:43.048 most correct kind of business, like I actually think that 1:00:43.288 --> 1:00:46.618 these businesses are better models for the future. We're not 1:00:46.618 --> 1:00:49.318 going to be, you know, people who dislike Facebook being 1:00:49.318 --> 1:00:51.958 the man we yeah, it's actually going to be really 1:00:51.958 --> 1:00:53.458 hard in this model for there be a Facebook in 1:00:53.458 --> 1:00:56.398 the future. Yeah. The Sandbox and Cal games are not 1:00:56.398 --> 1:00:58.678 going to that. They're very different. They're giving out most 1:00:58.678 --> 1:01:00.598 of the value of the users. It's mostly UGC. They're 1:01:00.598 --> 1:01:03.478 super committee directed. It's decentralized. You can pick up and 1:01:03.478 --> 1:01:06.358 walk away. So when, when, when this next metaverse and 1:01:06.358 --> 1:01:09.388 this next level of all these products is built, it's 1:01:09.388 --> 1:01:12.538 not around these sort of giant corporations that have all 1:01:12.538 --> 1:01:12.898 the power. 1:01:16.388 --> 1:01:18.728 So, I mean, is that a way to summarize, I mean, 1:01:18.878 --> 1:01:22.808 this is a sentiment incentives that works more for the 1:01:22.808 --> 1:01:24.818 user than for the big corp. 1:01:25.688 --> 1:01:29.288 Yeah. That's a really good way to describe it. This, actually, 1:01:29.288 --> 1:01:31.478 because this is all these are all benefits for users. 1:01:31.928 --> 1:01:34.208 And a lot of people don't realize that there was 1:01:34.778 --> 1:01:37.928 a magic influencer who was, you know, playing magic recently 1:01:37.928 --> 1:01:39.578 went on a big grant of like, Hey, I want 1:01:39.578 --> 1:01:41.888 to oh, my magic cards for my digital game. Like, 1:01:41.888 --> 1:01:43.988 why can't I hold my magic but not own a piece? 1:01:44.678 --> 1:01:47.048 Because the stigma out of NAFTA made him not want 1:01:47.138 --> 1:01:48.668 to be an MP. But what he wanted was he 1:01:48.668 --> 1:01:51.068 wanted the old school world of only ration cards. Yes. 1:01:51.428 --> 1:01:53.228 Once magic gets off their ass and allows you to 1:01:53.228 --> 1:01:56.558 honor magic cards, they basically will be doing crypto gaming 1:01:56.798 --> 1:01:58.808 and it is a superior model. That is what made 1:01:58.808 --> 1:02:01.088 magic huge to begin with, because that model was more 1:02:01.088 --> 1:02:04.088 present in physical, tangible things. Digital is an easier way 1:02:04.088 --> 1:02:07.028 to reach more people. But once you combine those two models, 1:02:07.028 --> 1:02:09.038 it's going to be way more effective. So the second 1:02:09.038 --> 1:02:11.318 magic and another company come out and show how much 1:02:11.318 --> 1:02:13.778 better it is. Everyone can follow suit. People are going 1:02:13.778 --> 1:02:15.638 to own their own magic cards and the guy over 1:02:15.638 --> 1:02:18.128 here saying, why, why? Why are you try to steal 1:02:18.128 --> 1:02:21.818 my money by selling NFT? No, no. We're trying to 1:02:21.818 --> 1:02:24.158 give back to you, right? We're gonna make it so 1:02:24.158 --> 1:02:26.108 you can own this thing. I want to go live 1:02:26.108 --> 1:02:27.518 in a regular world. I want to play in a 1:02:27.518 --> 1:02:29.758 game where I can earn money, right? I want to. 1:02:29.758 --> 1:02:32.138 I want to have the things that I'm doing. Relate 1:02:32.138 --> 1:02:35.348 back to my own financial prosperity. Like, that's better. 1:02:35.648 --> 1:02:38.228 Yeah. And the companies don't get screwed either, because they 1:02:38.228 --> 1:02:41.108 can get all these residual fees when when things are 1:02:41.108 --> 1:02:44.228 being transferred around, if they don't remember. Exactly. So the 1:02:44.228 --> 1:02:46.808 users get most of it, but they still get rich, 1:02:47.258 --> 1:02:50.528 like in a peripheral way. Accidentally, they get rich. 1:02:51.218 --> 1:02:53.198 Yeah, I've had someone say to me like, Well, it's 1:02:53.198 --> 1:02:54.788 all about how much money there is. There's only so 1:02:54.788 --> 1:02:58.388 much money like so that's not really true. When you 1:02:58.388 --> 1:03:00.008 when you think about we go back to the first 1:03:00.008 --> 1:03:03.938 change from the pay to play to free to play right. OK, 1:03:03.938 --> 1:03:08.078 free to play games, make more money. In theory, some 1:03:08.078 --> 1:03:10.868 of them do other them make less money. We have 1:03:10.868 --> 1:03:14.018 moved the money to be in a more appropriate place. Right. 1:03:15.488 --> 1:03:17.858 So the money where it is being changed and that 1:03:17.978 --> 1:03:21.398 that is being realized. So there's the same amount of money. 1:03:21.968 --> 1:03:25.268 But now the things that are good rise. The top 1:03:25.268 --> 1:03:27.548 free to play allows more for the things that are 1:03:27.548 --> 1:03:29.918 good to rise to the top. This does that even 1:03:29.918 --> 1:03:32.468 more so. So that new good things can come out 1:03:32.648 --> 1:03:34.238 and in a blink of an eye, they'll be all 1:03:34.238 --> 1:03:34.718 over the place. 1:03:35.168 --> 1:03:37.418 Yeah, I mean, that's that's one way to think about 1:03:37.418 --> 1:03:41.898 this is it's a giant engine for content creation. Yeah. 1:03:41.948 --> 1:03:45.598 I mean. It's only one of your items, but I 1:03:45.598 --> 1:03:47.488 feel like a lot of things are feeding into that 1:03:47.728 --> 1:03:50.668 because the content creates the communities around it, which creates 1:03:50.668 --> 1:03:53.728 the money which creates the hype which creates the Melvins 1:03:54.328 --> 1:03:56.518 and the more and more content you have. It's just 1:03:56.938 --> 1:03:59.488 the whole ecosystem gets super rich. People are excited. They 1:03:59.488 --> 1:04:02.638 want to play different universes. And to your point, that's 1:04:02.638 --> 1:04:05.188 not zero sum money that is more and more money 1:04:05.218 --> 1:04:08.518 around more and more content. So the better you incentivize 1:04:08.518 --> 1:04:10.618 the content, the more money there is. 1:04:11.748 --> 1:04:13.818 Yeah, if we talk about, like, really far future and 1:04:13.818 --> 1:04:15.828 in my case, I'm talking about super, far future, let's say, 1:04:15.828 --> 1:04:18.888 five years, right? I don't know that we're going to 1:04:18.888 --> 1:04:21.138 see the same kind of thing like a tick tock 1:04:21.138 --> 1:04:24.348 or a YouTube or Facebook come and take over full 1:04:24.348 --> 1:04:27.288 segments that and these companies being sort of like owned 1:04:27.288 --> 1:04:31.038 and backed by major corporate powers. Instead, what's going to 1:04:31.038 --> 1:04:35.208 happen is The Hunger Games not right? The Hunger Games 1:04:35.208 --> 1:04:39.288 board was a better version of a type of battle 1:04:39.288 --> 1:04:43.248 inside of Minecraft. That kind of thing is more innovative. 1:04:43.428 --> 1:04:45.258 And so we're going to have more things that come 1:04:45.258 --> 1:04:48.738 from just random communities because the past is to being 1:04:48.738 --> 1:04:51.408 successful in bigger way, more so now we're we're allowing 1:04:51.438 --> 1:04:53.868 that spark of innovation, the idea that innovation is kind 1:04:53.868 --> 1:04:57.378 of like you need the right level of opportunities and 1:04:57.378 --> 1:04:59.718 the right combination of ideas and then something something. 1:05:00.048 --> 1:05:01.038 It's an evolution play 1:05:01.338 --> 1:05:04.428 and evolution play. Now we're we're multiplying the speed of evolution. 1:05:04.698 --> 1:05:06.128 And so but it's not a small world where we're 1:05:06.158 --> 1:05:08.688 talking about we're doubling the speed of evolution we're talking about. 1:05:08.718 --> 1:05:11.418 We're going 100 x the speed of evolution. And that 1:05:11.748 --> 1:05:14.598 speed evolution means that some big person who comes by 1:05:14.598 --> 1:05:15.498 and said, Hey, by the way, I want to make 1:05:15.508 --> 1:05:17.688 a tick. I want to recreate YouTube. I want to 1:05:17.868 --> 1:05:19.998 I want compete with Facebook for, you know, social media 1:05:19.998 --> 1:05:23.598 platform like that. Large lumbering play isn't going to be 1:05:23.598 --> 1:05:27.348 the point at which it's going to be three guys 1:05:27.348 --> 1:05:29.958 who got together, who were drunk while playing some music, 1:05:29.988 --> 1:05:32.118 and they figured out a thing that was kind of funny. 1:05:32.118 --> 1:05:34.848 That was more interesting. They deployed it. They suddenly got 1:05:34.848 --> 1:05:36.888 a bunch of money on it. It suddenly works way better. 1:05:36.888 --> 1:05:39.468 Nobody loves this thing. Now, this thing is a new 1:05:39.888 --> 1:05:42.138 super hot thing, and it came from nowhere. 1:05:44.448 --> 1:05:47.078 All right. Well, this is a this has been fantastic, 1:05:47.088 --> 1:05:50.328 let's continue doing these conversations, maybe the other one's going 1:05:50.328 --> 1:05:53.298 to be shorter, but I really enjoyed having you and 1:05:53.448 --> 1:05:55.098 talk to you again soon. Hey, my pleasure.